Songtsan

I cant reply to everything you wrote here, but western science does state that one can hold the breath till one passes out, just that as soon as one passes out, that voluntary control one had achieved over the breath will be lost in unconsciousness and the autonomic control will take place and restore the breath. Also I would say that chemicals indirectly control breathing. If gaining total awareness and control over the chi equals learning control of the autonomic nervous system, then what you say makes sense. Energy controls chemistry. This would be good to know. I am running out of ideas about this topic however, as I have been brainstorming on several subjects at once, and I think I should go do some research now before I say more. I would hate to say something patently untrue out of ignorance or by making unfounded suppositions. I think I will return to this topic in a few days as I start doing some research on my own.

Listen you! You are personally attacking me. Go read all my posts on this. i cannot afford to be drawn in, so if this is how you are going to be, I will have to ignore you until you say something worth replying to.

In the mind where else?

You lie! lol

I will say this right now: Buddha was heavily influenced by the Vedas/Brahmanism, as were pretty much every one of the teachers he learned from. Their ideas of reincarnation came from here. Brahmanism was heavily influenced by the caste-system that had formed in India as a way to control the lower castes by explaining why they had to stay where they were in society. If you study the roots of Tantra, before it became watered down by the Vedas in order to survive, they did not believe in those reincarnationist beliefs at all. I have a different view of reincarnation than Buddha and the Vedas did, and so his whole theory is somewhat flawed for me because of our root differences.

I agree...but I have seen supposed quotes by Buddha that indicated that he was not fully clear of ignorance himself. I would have to do some searching in the sutras to tell you which ones, and maybe some of those were only attributed to him and werent actually his real belief. I have the feeling that becoming even fully enlightened does not grant omniscience, and that one will always be ignorant to some degree. Just my opinion. If you wish me to go into detail I will, but not tonight I think. That is an argument that will take me time to formulate.

I am way down with Mahamudra and far more attentive to Vajrayana philosophies. I never said that Buddha was being a pessimist altogether. He identified most of the root sources of suffering, developed a plan to defeat it, and stated the plan pretty clearly. I just think he focused so much on clearing suffering that he failed to see how useful it was for us at the same time. It is what is evolving and pushing us to grow as people. Remember that post I made about fishes learning to walk on land, and how awful those first few thousands of years must have been evolutionary wise? Suffering was a part of this, and it co-creates who we are. My main point is don't fear the suffering and don't fear the wheel. Don't fear anything that you don't have to in fact! Avoid fear based motivations. I was planning on further analyzing other religions on this board, but i think it may be stressful for me to go there, because more people will get upset and stuff. I am not trying to start controversy, I have plans within plans. Largely one of them is to point out the similarities between religions nowadays and especially the similarity of how they are almost all fear based at their root in some very significant ways. I also see that in some ways religions, etc. are not evolving. They should be.

No - I mispoke - I didnt want nor need personal attacks. I wanted people to attack the specific philosphies that I was stating, with valid/logical arguments, not attack the ground of my philosophy, which is my core beliefs. I wanted people to give me constructive critcism, not try to undermine my root self. This helps me not at all. Please think hard about the differences between attacking someone personally, and constructively criticizing their philosophies. I shouldn't have been flippant with that post. I assumed everyone would get the right idea. Apparently I messed up and have been working to make people understand my true intention ever since. My bad. The option is still open. Disagree with the philosophy, not with my personality, does that not make sense? Should I elaborate further? I thought I have made it crystal clear by now, but apparently I am lacking in effective communication skills still. I will elaborate some here: If someone says 'you' in their attack on me, they are generally attacking me personally. If someone states, 'the logic here is faulty,' or 'this opinion on such and such subject seems weak,' or they say something like 'this belief,' etc. then that is useful. If someone says something like 'You are being an asshole for saying this,' 'Your head is on backwards,' 'You make no sense,' etc. etc. then it is going into the realms of taking what I say personally, making an absolutist statement about me as a person, and actually getting upset at me as a whole for holding to a particular belief structure, which is only one of many beliefs that I hold. Avoid absolutist statements about me, and I will be more likely to do it for you as well. Focus in on the specific attitude you disagree with and leave it at that. Don't take it or make it personal. That's my ideal. Otherwise the shit hits the fan and we all waste time. I see it happen between bunches of people on here - everyone getting involved in ego-battles, everyone stereotyping eachother, everyone playing blame games, getting mad. I do it too - but I am trying real hard to get out of that habit. It makes more sense. Then everyone can debate issues without getting their feathers ruffled. Holding tight to opinions is stupid, so sayeth the Buddha himself, and in fact that is one of the vows they take. Identifying an opinion in someone and superimposing it upon your thought construct of who you think someone is, and then attacking the whole of that person instead of making sure that it is clear you are only debating a specific opinion just wastes time/energy and thread space. I can only go over this too many times before I do whats best for me and start plain ignoring any posts that go in this direction. I am compassionate, but I am also geared towards being effective, and this is a poor use of energy as I am stressing here and now and in most of the other posts immediately above this one. All I ask is for people to start realizing what they are doing. Accept it, get over it, lets all be friends, and grow together.

I like much of this post, but from a yogic perspective one of the pranas controls the breath - apana prana maybe? I cant recall off the top of my head. I believe this to be associated with the autonomic control that the various glands and respiratory centers (i.e. pneumotaxic and apneustic centers) have. They monitor minute levels of O2 and CO2 and other indicators of respiratory things and adjust breathing rate, depth, etc, accordingly. This is not something that needs to be watched consciously. One can either let the body take care of breathing or purposefully control it oneself. I see advantages to both ways. I also see that one can program the breath over time to breathe differently, so that where one had to consciously control it at first, one can eventually let it go into automatic mode. It has to due with muscle memory and neuronal programming in the plastic architecture of the brain.

I am also looking into retracting my lower ribs some, both sitting and standing. Not too much though.

To you its fallacy - to me its not. I accept advice I believe in...I accepted Joe blasts advice, and that one guy who's name is in chinese and I dont know what it means, and some of the others here. Please dont take it personally if I dont 100% agree with you. I cannot tell myself to believe something I dont. Here I disagreed on the O2 requirements part - we have been having this disagreement since I posted that thread on pranayama. Dont get mad if I dont agree with you. I am a scientist - I have done my own studies on this and it is clear to me that I am right you are wrong...I always provide evidence, others also provide evidence to your contrary and yet you still insist on keeping to your own beliefs - not a problem. Just dont get upset when I still refuse to agree with you. Its alright you know! Its not a big deal. I gave you one immediately as I saw your post - it took me all of a minute to find (in wikipedia at that!). Others also agreed with me. I think you are just being resistant to changing your own views. I dont fault you for this too much, as I understand what it is to be stubborn. - here you questioned whether or not others advice helped me or not...it is pretty obvious that it did as I decided to change from completely relaxed abdomen to an adjusted position of various muscles, which I am still working out, after only 1-2 days of making this post! You seem to expect instant change in my part as if I am some kind of person who instantly trusts others advice without examining it first - definitely not the case. I am just telling you not to get upset basically - to save you wear and tear on your psyche! You know that I dislike fruitless arguments. I don't know that we have either of us accomplished anything with all this back and forth. I think you just have a lot of angst that I am confident in my own beliefs and wont listen to you. I understand what you are saying, but I think some of what you are saying is flawed. I know what you mean, but don't agree. Its ok! Nothing is wrong with disagreeing. I can be stubborn, you can be the same. Let's not expend too much energy in fruitless attempts to change each other if its obviously not working out - that is all that I am saying, bottom line. Its healthier for us both - less stressful. You know this deep down, I know you do.

Not at all - just contribute something I can use to grow. Attacking me in general ways vs. specific ways doesn't help me. If you have something specific - something you can point out, that would help me greatly. Instead you seem to constantly attack the ground that I walk on. That is way to deep and rooted for you to remove or change. Its like trying to uproot a tree. Work on a branch or two - you will be far more successful - that's what I mean. I will give you an example if you like.

I am a Taoist too, and yet not - and I am a Buddhist, yet not a Buddhist. I never said we walk the same exact path, just that our paths intersect from time to time...sometimes you follow in my footsteps, sometimes me in yours. It depends on who is ahead. You are ahead of me in some ways, I am ahead of you in some ways. And then of course all that is untrue. If you dont believe in interdependent co-origination, let me explain it further. The piece of paper sitting on your desk (assuming there is one somewhere). It didnt appear out of thin air. A tree grew somewhere. The tree grew there because someone planted it, or a tree seed dropped, etc. The water fell from the sky and gave it some juices it needed. The sun shined on it and helped it make sugar. It found elements in the soil that it needed to grow, which came from dead animals, nitrates that were produced from bacteria, etc. Someone came and chopped that tree down, that person would not have been able to chop that tree down if they hadnt been born. Someone made the chain saw that that person used to chop the tree down. Someone has to process that wood. Someone had to ship that wood to the paper mill. Someone had to build that paper mill. Someone had to ship that paper to the store. Someone had to build that store. Someone had to work at that store to sell you the paper. You had to go to the store to get that paper. You would have never gone to that store if you hadnt lived in that town/city. You wouldnt lived in that city if your parents hadnt raised you where they did. You can expand this infinitely in every direction. Butterfly wings start hurricanes. This is the web of life. Everything affects everything in this web. I affect you, you affect me. If you had never came into this thread and posted, I would not be posting what I am right now. You co-created my actions right at this moment. You manipulated me! You manipulator you! I am your puppet! Do you see that we co-manipulate each other? It is like this. You cant step one foot outside your door without being co-created by others all day long. You will never forget me. I have changed you permanently whether you admit it or not. Same goes for me and you vice versa.

thats one of the reasons why I like the Hong Sau mantra - "I am it." or "I am he." or "I am God" (for men at least...)..It acknowledges that one is all of creation and divinity itself. That one is indeed the divine.

that sounds just like incubus/succubus stories...go here: http://www.yourghoststories.com/ghost-stories-categories.php?category=17&page=1 and read the various stories - you will find stuff just like that by the hundreds.

It is like this: Everything is one. We are what we perceive - so when you perceive me - you are me! Seer, the seen, and the act of seeing become one. Satchitananda...exactly the same as interdependent co-origination as taught by the Buddha. You will never truly see me, as there is your own ego-mind in the way, and my ego-mind in the way too...but I do influence you highly, although not directly. If your fathers fathers mothers fathers mothers fathers mother had never been born - neither would you have! lol. Every single thing that has ever happened has co-created you/me/they. All parts of the whole are inseparable.

Honestly, no one can even say one word here without slightly altering the electrons, protons, neutrons, brain chemistry, etc. of someone else. My very presence on this board has co-created a thought construct of Songtsan in your mind. I helped create a piece of your mind. Even the absence of a reply from me in reaction to something you say to me speaks volumes and affects you. Impossible to interact with anyone and not change them. When one realizes the power of this, one gains even more power to change others, if that is their wish. Look at NLP, etc. I am not saying that I intend to manipulate others on purpose, just that I am realizing how far it really goes, and knowing this may and probably will temper the way i choose to interact with people. It is about taking more responsibility for my actions. I have grown leaps and bounds in the last few months here (and everywhere). Had some stumbling blocks, made some mistakes, but I am creating a new and improved (ego-wise) me.

I already have! hehe ..trust me...I altered you to some small degree already - if you look, you will find it out. In fact, I don't think it is ever possible to interact with anyone on any level without change occuring. No one is ever static anyways. We all change every second regardless, as is the nature of impermanency. This is all co-creation, or interdependent co-origination.

No one must be anything...the only law that applies is 'do what thou wilst.' this is the bottom line...everyone can do whatever it is in their power to do. Or as Captain Jack Sparrow said, " The only rules that really matter are these: what a man can do and what a man can't do." I dare anyone to refute this. You must prove that this rule doesn't apply, or that your rule applies by logic. EDIT: I should add that action/reaction rules always apply, but they are secondary to the initial act of choosing, although they also lie immediately before the act as well...they are before, during, and after. The choice exists only in the moment, you cannot choose your past, or future, as they have already occurred or have yet to occur. Choice in the moment, action/reaction all the way through and through.

agreed!

I think every action my ego-self takes is an attempt to change reality. Even if it just state my own opinion - in that act of seeking to make myself known, that is seeking to change your thought construct of who I am, and so thus, as your thought construct of who I am is you, I am seeking to change you.

every day my friend, every day i make great leaps and bounds... if you can proselytize me towards greater understanding, well then 'We who are about to die, salute you!' You will be my Caesar for a minute.

Here is the second part of my great realization: How I am a great hypocrite! ...And, I also believe, just about everyone else on this board is as well. This has to do with proselytizing namely. I come here to proselytize others. Oh, I have always known it subconsciously of course, this is nothing new. However, I always explained it to myself as wanting to share my self with others, being excited about my realizations, wanting to share them, etc. What does that entail though? It entails shaping my words to create a carbon copy of my realization in others minds, so that they 'understand' me...However, subconsciously, I want to make that carbon copy not only to be understood, but to shape others' minds! I want to copy my own programming into your hard-drives! I am a walking, talking virus...lol so many of you guys are too in my opinion. This is just my version of you of course! I know absolutely nothing about any of you - only my perceptions of you - my thought construct of you. All we ever see here is the tip of the iceburg. No one knows anyone here - period. Yes, this is an abolutist statement, and so is very flawed, yet it is still so true. The 'Cat,' 'ChiDragon' 'Flofolil,' etc. that can be known is not those people! At all. So what we have here is a system of thought construct wars - delusional in the extreme! Never ever will it be absolutely true, although it may approach a likelihood of truth here or there...These thought construct wars take place in our own minds. Your thought construct wars are different than my thought construct wars. My thought constructs of you are different than your own thought construct for yourself. I can never ever touch the real you. Period. I am not saying this isn't useful though - it really is. The proof is in the pudding. I know this: we come here to proselytize each other - in the extreme. Its not all we come here for! Just a significant part. I cannot say I will not stop, because even now I am still doing it. I cannot speak two words without trying to change you. It is in fact the nature of the beast. Only if I didn't come here at all could I avoid this. Even when I ask questions I am doing it. All words change the reality matrix - all actions in fact. All actions create action/reactions and so thus are about changing the action/reaction matrix. I am very resistant to people changing me - you may have noted this by now that I don't give in easily to others trying to change me. I am this way for a reason. I shall not explain because it is VERY complex and there for a reason. I shall simply summarize and say if you have succeeded in proselytizing me, then you owe yourself a pat on the back because you have cracked a tough nut indeed. Many of you have even if you haven't realized it. My gratitude to you. I am a virtual master of semantics and logic, and so I am hard to penetrate. It takes more than will to get past my defenses - it takes impeccable logic.

yes...and please also see my continuation of this topic in 'My great realization thread' I wanted to say this though, as a finish to what we were discussing. There is no one Buddha. Each person in this world, who has ever heard of Buddha, has within them a mind construct of who Buddha is. I was not talking about your Buddha - I was talking about my own Buddha. My Buddha is an asshole to me (in part). That does not mean that I think your Buddha is an asshole necessarily. The thing is I don't even know what your Buddha is like, and for me to make judgment on your Buddha is silly. I retract my absolute statement of the nature of all Buddhas. Please know that my statement applies to my Buddha, not your guys' Buddhas. While I tend to believe that my statement does in fact, or is likely to to, apply to your Buddha as well, I cannot know this for sure, and so thus I retract my absolutist statement to that effect. I can do whatever I want to my own Buddha, and it is none of your business. I can strap him to a board and toss throwing knives at him. My Buddha is my own self after all. You don't tell me what to do with my own self, I don't tell you what to do with yours (ideally). In reality, on this board, we are all always telling each other what to do with our own selves, myself included. We are all great hypocrites. I accept this in my self. I accept it within you all as well. It is part and parcel of the nature of this game.

...truth and not truth...but I will post in a different post 'My great realization' what I have just learned...it will be worth reading, I assure you.