BaguaKicksAss

Soooo, there is not really an energetic counterpart to enlightenment then? How come folks play with the chackras so much? I'm curious about all those neigong energetic practices, and clearing things out energetically on the way. Does this lead to enlightenment, or no?

Welcome back

Definitely a good full time practice! And one can even add the bit the medical qigong folks love in there... "how does this make me feel?" "when is the first time I felt this way/this happened?"

Regarding Enochian, no. Regarding the abyss, yes I think so, if that particular path is something you follow and you are drawn to. Which path/s do you follow? Crowley has some really good stuff in there, but he most definitely isn't for everyone. Not a path I personally follow, but did do some golden dawn stuff for a decade when I first started. (hey I was doing some ATRs on the side, it's all good ). There are much better sources on Enochian (Geoffrey James for example).

Is there a Taoist or Buddhist equivalent to this whole abyss thing? It would be difficult to imagine only ceremonial magicians happening across it...

ROFL your editing of the link titles ROFL. I had left out the Kabbalah dig that I sometimes add . Oh Crowley did have a lot of good to input into magic.... I just am still working on forgiving him and Mathers for what they did to enochian . I am curious though, was Crowley the first to come up with the whole abyss thing? Surely magicians before him must have experienced this same thing? It seems sort of universal?

He didn't quite plagiarize Dee and Kelly. (unless you just count borrowing one name and spelling it differently) Mathers went to the British museum and read through the Enochian manuscripts. It was far more difficult to get manuscripts back then, so he unfortunately only got about 1/10th of the system. He likely also read a True and Faithful Revelation. Then.... he proceeded to change everything around *grumble* so it fit his idea of colours, directions, everything based on elements and etc. Then Crowley came into the picture, and really liked the whole Aethyre idea and ran with it. What he came up with was pretty awesome, lets travel these things! However I feel that his visions and experiences were biased by his own previous ideas of how the universe works and their own system. I forgot to warn TTBs, don't get me started on Enochian magic and Crowley/Mathers lol.

In Crowley's case, he felt so, yes. But it is an example. For myself I personally made myself go to a Christian church and attend a service. If you can see how these 2 things, his method and mine are similar you have the picture.

Oh Kali is VERY good for this sort of thing (even though only "dark" to westerners). From what I have found she doesn't feel we need all these frivolous illusions, attachments and such. She is always awesome at showing us (in a very big way), what we need to get rid of/see/work past.

Awesome articles, thank you . Yes definitely, though mine doesn't even need a great abyss to do that . I guess we set things in order with it before something as big as abysses. The second one, while I don't agree with their interpretation of the Enochian aethyres, the whole abyss bits are very very well put, yes, do not try to bring any of "you" on the journey. Hmmm, I didn't realize folks got a second try, I thought it was more like you screw up the first go and you are going to spend years trying to undo the damage, then start over sort of thing. Also from what I understand, staying too long in the abyss is a very bad thing, you get sort of stuck... again from trying to take a big of "you" across. It is interesting how the abyss experience is just a giant version of what the entire path is all the way through from start to finish, just uhm bigger. (or so it seems)

*grumble* *grumble* *grumble* Enochian magic has nothing to do with Crowley. It came about centuries before he was even conceived *grumble*. (though he did go and swap things around later and come up with his own very odd theories about parts of it and grab bits he liked and stuff it into his own system of symbolism) *grumble* LOL Edit to add: *grumble* no such thing as any "abyss" or Kronzon hanging out in the 10th aethyre in the original Enochian diaries *grumble*.

Call up your favorite "dark" Deity of choice and ask them to know more about yourself and your inner workings. Though, what is seen can't be unseen. Once you are on the other side of the experience though there is much growth. PS be careful.

There is a thread around here somewhere which asks what enlightenment is from what I recall. I also seem to recall that there wasn't much of a consensus . C T, what is enlightenment from your understanding?

OK so basically the only things which can help lead to enlightenment are the individual's own work? How about transmission? (don't mind the newbie questions here, haven't met many enlightened people to ask!)

How about if some enlightened person is the one doing the needling and opening up the meridians? The title of this thread is "leads to" not happens instantaneously...

Nothing is permanent . Yes, if you find an experienced qigong, TCM or internal martial arts teacher with some ability, they can help you fix yourself back up.

So you mean real tantra vs internet tantra?

OK bitch mode *off*, sorry about earlier . My hope though is that those new to the path do not think that what you described is how magic works or what they should be looking for. Generally if a practitioner feels they have had that many experiences within 10 years or less, they should get out of the house more, do some hiking, go to the gym, work some overtime, and just focus on real solid physical activities for a time to ground. Sounds like you had some nasty spirits on the astral messing with you. I recommend not astral traveling if it ends up this way on a regular basis. You said you have not astral traveled in awhile, that is probably good. There are of course protections you can set up before you head out. Also one has to look into their internal realm, what internal unresolved stuff that we have, which allows that to happen to us. Magic perfects ourselves through our own work and helps us get to know inside out the inner realms. This is the primary goal; all else being secondary, and always leading back to the primary focus. (imo/ymmv) What we have happen "externally" is a guide map and picture of our internal world. While I personally beleive there are most definitely external things, beings, experiences and etc., they still mirror who we are, as we are drawn to and attracted by that which is alike, and vice versa. Yeah teachers give info bit by bit since students can't practice very well in the local asylum. Well also if you were experiencing actual damage from your practices, slowing down until you are a bit stronger/know more would have naturally been the best route to go. There are many things which only appear on the astral realm, and don't have a physical nor other planes counterpart. Some feel that the astral is more like a vacation then getting any real work done. Also the astral being so changeable and transient can lead to our imagination getting ahead of ourselves. What I mean is half of what we feel we experience being more ourselves than what is. Regarding forcing progress with sigil magic... while it works, there are things much more potent and much stronger to do such things. (the real stuff isn't in books). Also forcing progress doesn't actually progress a person that far (trust me, I should have an honorary PHD in this department lol), since you progress on one level and in one way, but the rest of you/what is gained through slow progress is also needed. You end up with hollow skill and ability, and run many more risks. Seen this many times. So one can run ahead too quickly though, which can cause a lot of trouble, especially if the person has natural talent. You open up parts of yourself, and parts of other places, which one is not yet ready for. Some people go get into bar fights in their first year of martial arts too... The not being able to read on the astral is really frustrating! Especially when you end up in one of those magical schools *grumble* lol. Though if you came back with physical damage and aren't exaggerating (nothing personal, just that most practitioners who talk about magic online really do exaggerate a lot) then you were perhaps not on the astral plane in particular. You would find Robert Bruce's works interesting.

Or make and wear an invisibility talisman. Though I think "bother with" is what was really meant by the OP.

I don't think you are crazy, I felt you were exaggerating a LOT! I probably should have explained myself a bit though. (I also thought perhaps you may have been one of our many sock puppets, but I see now you are not, by your previous posts). From all I have seen, been taught, found, etc. folks do not end up doing some of that sort of thing until they have at least been at stuff 30-40 years. How long have you been practicing? Though also astral I'm always skeptical of as by its nature it deceives. Also things seem bigger and badder, and what they are not actually, when traveling/working there. The reason I'm doubting your experiences is that it is doubtful that some human (even otherkin) can do what you claim, especially more than once. Now internal demons and etc., is different. While extremely challenging, that is at least doable. Waged wars? You have to admit, that does sound very RPG like . The shapeshifting into animal forms is easy enough on the astral, but perhaps about one in several hundred thousand could pull that off on the physical... Though a couple of those items are possible imo, but combined with things like waging wars.. uhm... How many times have you come back with physical scrapes, bruises, broken bones or etc. that you could not have gotten by thrashing around in your sleep? What I have seen over the years is many many many many people who practice magic, especially those without a teacher, who have false experiences that they fully believe.

Changing my post to: I'm extremely skeptical and figure there is either a lot of exaggeration, and/or way too much time on the astral going on here.

lololololol I figure, walking the iching, every day, has to at least help a little .

Hmm? Being a scholar is irrelevant to enlightenment from all I've seen...

I figure it does work, for living folks anyways. I noticed myself doing that whenever I'm downtown walking around. I wondered why I was walking around with my right hand in a fist.... now I know . Next time I walk through a cemetery I'll try it out. Another way to not have them see you, is to not see them. Shut down your psychic processes/abilities when they are around. It puts you off their radar (mostly).

I would sure hope that they don't offer how to evoke to complete random strangers on the internet for free... especially those who haven't been at it for at least 5 years. If so perhaps they should teach them how to summon Darwin first .