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Interesting you mention sexual energy. On the night of the new moon, i woke up to a sexual dream which hit me out of the blue because I was not watching any movie or TV show which had R rated content. These kind of dreams seldom happen to me, and when it happens i can usually pin-point the cause of it. It would be usually a sexual thought that was happened in my mind during the past 2 or 3 days. This time, i was totally shocked because i have been busy with other thoughts and had not exposed myself to any thought that could be sexually oriented. But, i did brush it aside soon, and woke up in equanimity, not getting upset about it - i used to get upset about these dreams in past.

Hi Sunshine, I never experienced something like that no, but I think like apech that its the hypnagogic state and or a night terror (there you can't move many times like in the experience that you shared)- and if that is the case, it might be good to think of it as not "others" violating you, but parts of your psyche being in an uproar. I do work with my dreams and one thing I learned is that all of the happenings, persons and even the places are symbolic representations of myself - not "other" or "outer" "alien" phenomenon, thinking like that you have also more power. Otherwise you are merely being a victim to powerful outer enteties invading your dreamlife, what could you really do against that? If they are dream images of your own psyche, then you have much more power to deal with it If you can overcome this quiet intense time you might find yourself transformed and a better human being, you might also gather useful information to help others who go through similar experiences and help them overcome those difficulties - so be strong and don't give up. I also second Gerard, stop your astral traveling (if you do that) and do grounding bodywork I would like to share a very good method to ground yourself and clean your energies that I learned from my girlfriend, she got it from a Baba in India. I tried it many times and it is the most grounding thing I found so far... do it for some time, it is nothing esoteric involving breathing techniques or visaulizations, very simple and not dangerous and harmful in any way 2 ways to do this, in the shower or even better in a bathtub youneed good rock salt or sea salt if possible not too fine satl crystals. make yourself a hot bath and fill it with around 250gr of salt - lie in it, relax, after some time use another big amount of salt to scrub yourself - your arms, shoulders, neck, throat, chest etc. everywhere let it soak in a bit - rub the salt in and then lie in the water again - as long as neccesary its great for your skin as well, you'll have baby skin again after that bath (but scrub yourself, might be a bit painful but nothing too bad) you can do it also in a hot shower (if you don't have a bathtub) with maybe 250gr of salt - just shower for some time, and then scrub your whole body with the salt - keep it on your body a bit and then rinse it of (not more then once, you'll know why, you be so heavy you need to lie down and chill out after one round of the salt on your body, cover your whole body, also the face but be careful with your eyes) you can chant purification mantras while doing this, or whatever prayers of purification you know some back ground story: my girlfriend was doing alot of asthanga yoga that time and had a major energetic overdose (she had an excellent teacher, and is herself a teacher by now), one baba found here after she collapsed at the ganges and couldn't move anymore, he treated her with very simply aryuvedic food and made her do the salt baths, her energy became normal in about a month or so I use the salt shower once in a while when I'm traveling and translating alot for example or when I'm very tired or some energy is stuck in my subtle body, its incredible way to ground yourself and clear your body energies of impurities, and that in turn might help your dream life all the best, tell us how you are doing, please try the salt baths, any other daobums reading this who suffer from toooo much energy or toooo little energy can try it too, its a great method

Hello guys, I have been having some strange things happening in life lately. I thought long and hard before trying to compose this post. It seems like I am getting visitors when I am asleep. In my opinion I am getting visits by people who can astral travel. Couple time I woke up, meaning my astral body woke up and actually talked to the person as if I knew him. The incident happened early in the morning. I saw (while I was asleep with third eye??) one guy standing inside of the door of my room. I could see the whole body of the person but the face was blurred. I actually greeted the guy as if I knew him by calling him uncle. Then I got up (my astral body ???) and next thing I know the guys is on top of me with his knees on my thigh. It hurt me (in dream??) so I called him to stop. He actually told me to stay still and shut up or he will kill me right there and then. Then I go blank not sure for how long and I woke up. The thing is, I am having similar experiences on regular basis and I do not know how to stop it. I do not know what they do to me, after I go blank. I feel violated, and as if somebody is trying to control my thought and feelings. It has got me very worried. If somebody has similar experiences and some solution which they can suggest, it would be very helpful. Thanks Sunshine

Hello Raven's Fire, and welcome to the forums! Your membership is approved and we're happy to have you here :-) You might find this annoying but I have to tell you that my wife and I are huge fans of the TV show Northern Exposure and our favorite character is Ed Chigliak, the mild-mannered, young Tlingit film-making genius :-) It was thanks to that show that we know anything at all about your clan (if that's the right way to express it). Alaska is defintely on my short list of places to not only visit but to experience before I die. And with my qigong, I hope that means I still have a lot of time available to realize the dream :-) Please take the time to read the two posts pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum terms and rules. This covers all you need to know when getting started. For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day. Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you, SC and the TDB team

Why china ? You could do this right here in US, where natural beauty abounds. Have you thought about basic things necessary to run a retreat center like you dream of ? Water supply, food supply, medical emergencies, accessibility for people to get in and out etc ? Life could get real harsh in remote areas. I remember watching this show called "Life below zero", which shows solitude life in Arctic region. Going back to the original topic - one week (one month is even better) of 24x7 practice is very powerful, even within the confines of society. It works great, if one lives alone or has a partner who would understand and cooperate for a week of silence in the home. We work so hard in society so that we have money to seek out sensual pleasures, without understanding these sensual pleasures are a never ending evil in life. A week of solitude and silence becomes more feasible for the multitude, mostly upon retirement.

1) Begin by meditating in the desired position and gradually increase the time until you can sit for several hours comfortably 2) You can train yourself to become lucid in the dream. Once that is mastered, you can transcend dream altogether and sleep the sleep of clear light. There are methods for learning this. Search here for dream and sleep yoga.

My ideas for you: Taoist but not monastic. No rituals, only pay respect to ancestors from time to time as a sign of respect for all the hardships they had to endure and their legacy for future generations. Disciplines: it's obvious,a place to purify the mind and get in tune with the laws of Nature (seasonal changes, 5 elements, yin & yang, bagua, etc.) Schedule: practice 24/7 and wandering from time to time according to the movements of the celestial bodies and seasonal changes and yearly changes [fire horse year (2026) move north and close to running water to cool down the greatest Yang; excess metal, move south; excess wood, move west and so forth...these changes will vary according to the practitioner's date of birth, i.e. someone born in the year of the rat will benefit from a southern location]. Wandering would vary: could be a week, a month or one year away from the centre. ........................................ Good you opened this thread, the timing is right, I am about to renounce mainstream society. My dream-project: Have the funds to open a small spiritual (no New Age just hardcore practice) centre deep in the mountains in a valley with plenty of running water and surrounded by mountains, or alternatively in a mountain facing the sea. Either location is good. Place: China. I wonder what's the Chinese Gov. like when it comes to open a centre run by foreigners, are they open? Examples: Lao Shan Note: I like the spirit of the dog guarding the mountain, a Fu dog, very auspicious and great Feng Shui. No wonder why that place is sacred to Dragon Fate Taoists. Wonderful location for stay and practice! Mount Siguniang Rules: stated above but no females though (unfortunately) for obvious reasons; nothing to do with sexism or discrimination of any kind. Rituals: stated above Diet: vegetarian. This is my dream, anyone welcome to join but for good, no short stay as this would be a place for serious practice away from the world. Anyway, if anyone has plans to open a centre, I'm keen to join and will teach Baguazhang to the highest level. Best! Thanks again.

Why would most people not be capable of astral protection no matter how hard they try? If they can dream couldn't they surely astral project? These abilities can be acquired energetically couldn't they? Isn't saying "you won't be able to do it no matter how hard you try" the equivalent of telling them that qigong is useless because they won't be able to cultivate chi no matter how much work and effort goes into the practice? In my opinion allowing folks to know that they can conveniently communicate telepathically with each other, plants and animals as well as knowing what they're capable of through deep meditations (or while their bodies are at rest) can turn them on the spiritual path. Instead we rely on material things and technology (used by governments and corporations to control and enslave us). I'm aware of what Shakyamuni said about getting attached and distracted by these abilities but in today's age the spiritual path is no longer so cut and dry.

Yeah wifi effects me big time. I had to turn it off before I went to sleep, once I forgot and I had a dream my brain was really hot and frying from wifi signals... I wake up and was sure I turned it off but it was the one time I forgot. Another really weird thing I've had for the past few years is when I'm waiting for a lift (aka elevator), I can feel it when it comes up through the ground infront of me... it's like I get slight vertigo and loss of balance when I'm outside the lift without even having stepped inside. I put it down to a big mass of metal coming up through the ground affecting my feet energy centers or something... such a strange feeling.

Meditating/visualizing yourself into a dream is a very difficult task. Tenzin Wagnyal Rinpoche addresses the issues newcomers have and seems to guide you by the hands in his book. I haven't really had the chance to put that part of his material to work as of yet as I'm really devoted to mastering the Taoist dreaming techniques at the time of this writing. I don't want to give off the wrong impression and make everyone think that I'm anti-science or anti scientific research. I'm just not a fan of sacrificing the cultivation of a skill set to effortless mastery and perfection for the sake of introducing endless data and theory. In the end all this does is leave you with all this knowledge that you can't really put to use. I'll use myself as an example and I've spoken out against this on a separate post. This is the exact same reason I left healing tao and healing tao doesn't (and likely never will) fit the definition of a science by scientific standards. I'm also not very fond of the arrogance and all the misleading that goes on when they hijack spiritual practices. In my opinion they're almost as bad as those frauds in the metaphysical community (these are the absolute worse) who prey on desperate people for very large sums of money or develop cults. I love science but most of the theory and data can be saved for later in cases like these where SKILL is what you should be working on first. Afterwards you can learn the theory and data if you choose and connect with the information much more deeply and with true understanding. I feel the exact same way about the esoteric material. I'm considered the scientific/analytical type in the offline world and no one in the real world could ever imagine that I would be into qigong,lucid dreaming or meditation as I keep my spiritual life PRIVATE. I guess you could say I was fortunate enough to have have spiritual experiences which has allowed me to keep an opened mind. DreamBliss, I'm with you on developing a lucid dreaming form which is accessible to everyone. At the very least to everyone on this forum. Something that actually WORKS the way we envision it should and won't cost anyone a dime other then their desire to learn it. Maybe we could develop a style of qigong that works in tandem with this. We'll have to see what happens but there isn't any reason for anyone here NOT to experience these energetic planes.

Well, I agree with you that being bound to a religion and its rites is a frustrating thing and it also does not sit well with me. I don't follow rules simply because they are imposed on me, but I adopt the rules when... (1) The consequences are too dire for me to go against or (2) the rules make perfect logical sense or (3) I'm not going against the rules simply because of emotional patterns. For rituals, there are always some kind of symbolism behind them... But trying to figure them out doesn't sit right with me either. I find meditation the most natural... In fact before I even realized it was meditation or even knew of religion, I did it when I was a kid without anyone teaching it. All you do is explore your own mind and increase the scope of sensitivity/awareness. And when I simply watch what goes on naturally in my own mind... whether physical sensations or mental perceptions, then I go into a naturally meditative state. I find that the basis behind some of what they teach in the lucid dream techniques, such as the "new agey" wake-induced lucid dream (WILD) - adapted from Tibetan dream yoga, where you just slip yourself into a lucid dream after getting into a meditative state and maintaining lucidity as we go into a sleep cycle. It's simple, but not easy to do...

Incubation, tibetan yoga of dream and sleep, yoga nidra, some forms of sufi dikr, etc... are - I think - just different cultural versions of the same practice.

Oneironaut Thank you for the clarification. I think I have to clear some things up too... I did not mean to come off as disrespectful to Buddhist/Tibetan Buddhist/Taoist belief systems. If I did I apologize, to you and anyone else concerned. Understand that I was a Christian for over 20 years, as I have said many, many times by now. I am sure someone reading this is tired of my saying it. Like I have this huge battle scar and I like t rip my shirt off to show it to everyone who passes by. That is not my intention. I just want you to get that I have had enough of religion to last the rest of this lifetime, OK? I have no objection to spiritual practices and leaving them connected with lucid dreaming if they work best connected to each other. I'll assume you know what you are talking about and they are. I just want to avoid ceremonies, chanting, long hours of sitting on my knees, etc. What I am thinking of as complicated and unnecessary additions. Much of which is what I think of as esoteric. I have a book called, "Foundation of Magical Practice 1" or something like that by a Josephine... Can't remember the last name. I have also read stuff by Meg Blackburn Losey. The whole draw a pattern on the ground, face in a certain direction, use these hand gestures, etc. It just doesn't fit me, it's the same for me with the usual Buddhist temple practices. To be clear I am no avid fan of any corrupted Westernized version of anything either. I don't need what I have called mumbo-jumbo in any form. So if LaBerge is bad, I will read the books, figure it it for myself, and be done with that methodology. Right now I am working through B Alan Wallace's book as I said. I just don't think lucid dreaming should be so hard to initiate and master. OK? I think the process of training yourself to get into and sustain a lucid dream should be easy. Not easy as in free of work. Easy as in free of complications. I don't mind hard work, doing whatever practices are truly needed for me. Also I am not against meditation, I just have failed to see any obvious gain from doing it the last few years, a big enough gain to make it worthwhile to continue. Of course maybe meditation is working more subtly. It's not like I have keep any before and after records. I hope that clears things up. To summarize, hard work is OK but strain is not. Spiritual is OK but esoteric is not. No preference of one training over any other, avoiding religion as much as possible. Thank you for all the links! I own both of LaBerge's books, I am reading B Alan Wallace's Lucid Dream book, and I have a hold on his Shamatha book. I was also able to place a hold on Susan's Happiness book/CD. I have saved the links to the rest. As far as nootropics I am investigating Lion's Mane to start with as I have an affinity with mushrooms. Then Huperzine-A and Bacopa Monnieri. Guayusa tea before bed for lucid dreaming. As far as what my culture has labeled illegal, fuck what they think! Only I have the right to say what goes into my body! If I had a source I would get it and use it. Acid, peyote, shrooms, ayahuasca and DMT to start with. But I have no such source, probably for the best for now. Michael Sounds like an awesome dream man!

yes the teachings say that mastering your dream state state is a prerequisite to attain liberation in the bardo of dying I think yoga nidra can be a great aid for dream yoga - so there are similarities for sure I go google incubation and read more about it

Another thing DreamBliss, If you’re going to consider the western approach to this practice you’re going to have a ton of work and a ton of reading to do. I been on that path before so I can point you in the right direction. Here are the sources you’ll likely need. To build a firm foundation (for western standards) begin with these two books: http://www.amazon.com/Exploring-World-Dreaming-Stephen-LaBerge/dp/034537410X/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446692709&sr=8-1&keywords=lucid+dreamin http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-Lucid-Dreaming-Power-Supplements/dp/1430305428/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446692732&sr=8-1&keywords=advanced+lucid+dreaming Eventually you’ll need to work with supplements as with the more scientific approach your brain and body chemistry won’t always work in conjunction with your desire to have lucid dreams. There are even times where your dreams will be very fuzzy but supplementation would help to fix that as well as to prolong the dreams themselves. These substances are mostly synthetic and the ones I’ve found to work are choline bitartrate and piracetam. I used those back in college as part of my nootropics stack and they gave me lucid dreams on occasion without even intending on having them. I know another popular one is galantamine however I cannot comment on it as I’ve never used it before. There are also natural herbs that have been used by shamans in indigenous American communities in Brazil such as yerbamate. Shamans in indigenous American communities in the Dominican Republic used dimethlytryptamine (highly illegal substance) to induce out of body experiences and for explorations on the “other side”. Stephen LaBerge’s book was written a long while back and has never been updated. The up to date version of his methods are in this book: http://www.amazon.com/Are-You-Dreaming-Exploring-Comprehensive/dp/0957497709/ref=sr_1_10?ie=UTF8&qid=1446693330&sr=8-10&keywords=lucid+dreaming I’m also aware that you don’t like meditation but if you’re truly serious about this practice then you would set aside an hour of quiet time to still yourself. I know it’s difficult especially in the beginning. It’s also best to find yourself a teacher but for now here are some books that may help you: http://www.amazon.com/Real-Happiness-Meditation-28-Day-Program/dp/0761159258/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446692483&sr=8-1&keywords=sharon+meditation http://www.amazon.com/Dreaming-Yourself-Awake-Tibetan-Transformation/dp/159030957X/ref=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&qid=1446693484&sr=8-4&keywords=alan+wallace http://www.amazon.com/Attention-Revolution-Unlocking-Power-Focused/dp/0861712765/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446693484&sr=8-1&keywords=alan+wallace http://www.amazon.com/Stilling-Mind-Shamatha-Teachings-Lingpas/dp/0861716906/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1446693484&sr=8-5&keywords=alan+wallace Shamatha requires such a great deal of work. It’s not for the feint of heart. I’ve never done it but the amount of dedication truly scared me off and it’s definitely not for westerners. Insight meditation may be all you need but if it really drives you insane then try sensory awareness: http://www.amazon.com/Reclaiming-Vitality-Presence-Awareness-Practice/dp/1556436416/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1446691360&sr=8-1&keywords=sensory+awareness If you don’t want to read then try the course below: http://snoozon.com/lucid-dreaming-online-course In the end you’ll probably have to examine all these sources and figure out what works best for you. Instead of spending all that money, accumulating all this knowledge (that won’t translate into lucid dreaming skills) and using up your will power trying an endless array of techniques that may or may not work you should just try and keep things simple. If I were to go back in time and be my own older brother and point myself in the right direction here’s what I would recommend to myself today: 1) The snoozon online course 2) Sensory awareness (the book and the retreat) That’s it! You even have a forum with the online course where you’ll be able to get all the information you need. Just be careful with what you read because if someone tells you something isn’t possible and if they’re wrong then it just becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. Sensory awareness on the other hand is a somatic and meditative approach to mindfulness without the strict formality you'll find in zen. Another thing you want to be careful with is putting all your faith on LaBerge's techniques (or anyone else really) as if they're the written word of some supreme being and not having any faith in yourself. I've been there before. The sources I've provided is the best you're going to get when it comes to U.S. culture. When I think about U.S. culture I already see the overwhelming majority of people complaining about how it's too much work or they don't want to meditate. I don't mean to sound rude or as if I intend on being sarcastic but most folks would rather invent a pill or pop on a dream mask before bedtime to "effortlessly" lucid dream than to meditate and cultivate awareness throughout the day. Even setting their intentions would be too much work. I've studied the western methods enough to see how it's nothing more than a cheap watered down version of Tibetan dream yoga. Tibetan dream yoga works and is incredibly powerful but it's better suited for those who are truly devoted to that path. The way Tenzin Wangyal Rinponche presents it perhaps makes conscious dreaming achievable for most westerners who attempt it. I've got enough exposure to the Taoist methods to see how it already boils down what makes conscious dreaming work to it's core essence and on top of that they're just powerhouses of energy. They also work it down to the energetic level. The Taoist methods take work to learn but it's also the most effortless. Bruce Lee once said something along the lines of "Learn technique, apply technique, master technique, forget technique". This is where you want to get to. It's wu wei (the action of non action) at work. Again, I'm not trying to convert you but I am sharing my personal experience. I'm also not an authority (or even a monk for that matter) but a student. I still have a lot to learn and I'm grateful for being shown an authentic path that doesn't rely on the illegitimate teachings by those here in the west who had to go to Tibet to learn THEIR teachings, THEIR techniques and abide by THEIR religion and THEIR culture to swing back west and act like they know these spiritual practices better than the Tibetans themselves. These self proclaimed "experts" and "authorities" here in the west are arrogant beyond belief and it's the furthest thing from intelligence.

DreamBliss, I sincerely apologize for coming off so aggressively. Allow me the chance to explain that I had no intention of coming off as some malicious know-it-all or a self righteous bigot. I'll leave that corrosive attitude and manner of thinking to the western "rational" thinkers. Also, please consider the fact that hammering a belief system, whether political, philosophical or religious, is something I've always been vehemently against and my stance here is no exception. I am not here to forcefully convert anyone into anything and it's likely that you've misjudged my brutal honestly as "hammering down" my beliefs on you. I personally do not believe in Tibetan or Hindu deities and neither am I a fan of chanting or Tibetan singing bowls. Incense however (especially the Japanese kind) can be really fun and I use them to derive a bit of sensory pleasure and relaxation in my free time. That of course is a personal choice and I honestly don't see how it's possible to force something unto you that I don't practice or believe in the first place. Meditation and dream practice on the other hand is something that I have been practicing (on and off) for several years and I’m only trying to make the point that the two are inseparable. If you read The Tibetan Yoga's of Dream and Sleep by Tenzin Wangyal Rinponche he clearly states that ANYONE regardless of faith is able to use the teachings in his book. He also did mention one did not have to believe in Tibetan deities in order for the techniques to work and that it's best to receive oral transmission on the topic. In the book Yoga Nidra by Swami Satyananda Saraswati it was clearly stated that anyone of any background can make use of yoga nidra. Michael Winn clearly stated in his audio course (after a brief talk about Asclepius and the Greek tradition of using dreams) that Christians would feel right at home in his course. I don't see how any of this is forcing one's beliefs unto others. In the book Exploring the World of Lucid Dreaming by Stephen LaBerge it's sternly stated as FACT that out of body experiences are themselves lucid dreams and considering them to be anything more than that is just metaphysical baggage. LaBerge and the entire circus of western dream researchers hold their scientific dream theories as the holy grail of truth and their findings are to be unquestioned. Isn't this the "hammering in" that you were trying to avoid? I've stated earlier that conscious dreaming CANNOT be separated from their religious or esoteric origins and I maintain that. In all their kindness we have Buddhist, Hindu and Taoist teachers revealing their techniques to us and offering the flexibility to remove all kinds of cultural practices, deity worship and rituals and only adhering to what works. Remember that this was all derived from meditative practices and spirituality so no matter how much you try to eliminate or modify those components it's ALWAYS going to retain that spiritual element from which it originated from whether we like it or not. After all conscious dreaming IS a form of meditation. It’s just a different form of meditation than daytime meditations where you have a sense of stability because you retain your “woken up” ego state. When you go to sleep that “woken up” ego state has no stable foundation and it dissolves into that state of blackness and nothingness that we call sleep and sleeping is not meditation. These spiritual teachings are being handed to us (free of dogma, rituals and the worship of deities) to be made our own even though they are typically taught within the framework of their cultural and esoteric origins. No one is trying to convert you and when you take and apply what works for you it doesn’t make it any less of a spiritual practice from which these teachings originate from. I personally prefer the conscious dreaming framework offered by the Taoists as it boils everything down to their core essence. They don’t worship deities but view them (the deities) as crystallized chi. The Taoists prefer to tap into these energies instead and emphasize working with the energy body through qigong and cultivating awareness through lucid living. Lucid living is more important than lucid dreaming yet makes conscious dreaming a natural part of your life. The Tibetans on the other hand have the best methods to prime your psychology specifically for conscious dreaming while the western stuff is a watered down version of Tibetan foundational practices and is more involved with data, theory and more information oriented. You can go on and on with data and theory forever and really not get anywhere. Conscious dreaming is NOT about how much you know it’s about skill. If you don’t think chi/ki exists then that’s fine. In that case the Taoist methods may not be for you so try looking at the Tibetan foundational practices and those will take you very far. I had my first lucid dreams when I was 7 – 11 years old. They were infrequent and all very short and I would suddenly wake up seconds after realizing I was in a dream. These days I have them on random and very isolated occasions when I have no intent on having them in the first place. I have years of personal experience in the western approach to lucid dreaming. I started off with the methods proposed by Stephen LaBerge and to be honest that approach is far from keeping it simple. I’m not going to point all the blame onto him as it seems the Tibetan approach requires a great deal of diligence and determination (like spending many weeks inside a dark cave and hours of complex visualizations and meditations) and the western approach is modeled after the Tibetans but modified specifically for westerners and their lifestyles. The western approach however takes an already complex system and modifies it to make it unnecessarily complex in other ways by introducing all this unnecessary theory and data. In the end they are just taking eastern esoteric practices that they can more or less prove to work and adding a “scientific and authoritative” spin to it. The western approach is distilled and “easier” than it’s Tibetan parent but it’s also very demanding, limiting and results are not very consistent. I understand how someone who is looking forward to becoming a conscious dreamer can get deeply depressed and melancholic when confronted with what I’ve said earlier. Conscious dreaming is one of the most ecstatic, blissful, exhilarating (and equally peaceful), hyper sensory (can be more real than life itself), heavenly experiences one can have in their lives. Your capacity for love and pleasures of the senses is infinitely expanded. Your vision is pristine beyond what you ever thought possible, colors become much more vibrant and alive, you have true clarity of mind and you discover true freedom. It’s extremely addicting and words alone will never do it any justice. It’s something that must be experienced to fully come to terms with the very limited experiences I’m sharing. The fact remains however that this will always remain a spiritual practice at it's core and it will take work consisting of meditation, priming your psychology and energy work. Hopefully you’re willing to put in some work in at least the first two as these will build a firm foundation. In the western methods you'll be at the mercy of psychological tricks to induce these states of consciousness with no guarantee of consistent success. If you don't like traditional meditation try the works of Charlotte Selver and please show some respect for the Tibetans and the dream teachings/techniques for which they were kind enough to share with the world. We can strip the esoteric, cultural and religious origins from the dream teachings all we want to match our own but we'll be forever indebted to them even though they'll never ask for anything in return.

It's mostly what you describe. It's a non-practice, you don't do anything special. You just lie down and let the dream/sleep process follow its natural course. Only you keep your awareness. The important point is that it is considered a travel to the world of the dead. You lie down like if you were a corpse. I think in tibetan lore you have something similar, dream and sleep states being related to specific bardos.

All I needed to have a lucid dream last night was reading this thread! It was one of my rare space dreams. Junko and I were in a passenger space ship with a warp drive. Arriving on another planet, we just materialized on the surface, seeing a somehow oriental looking city in front and below us. I would call it a lucid dream because all the time I felt that I was in a movie.

Oneironaut I can not formulate a proper response to what you have said at this time. I can say only this much... I am tired of this heavy-handed approach used by almost every follower of every religion I have encountered. The hammer that says, "You have to do it this way or you will fail." With all due respect to those who enjoy or practice it, I do not need chanting, Tibetan singing bowls, hours of sitting on my fucking knees, incense, a belief in karma and reincarnation, the constant surveillance of every part of my body and all this other bullshit to lucid dream. I know this because my first lucid dream happened while I was still a Christian, before I started meditating or even opening my mind to other belief systems, simply by reading Mark McElroy's book. That is all I needed, that is all it took. Now maybe it can be argued I had some natural propensity for lucid dreaming that I since lost because of my own fear. It could also be argued that I do not have any such propensity, as lucid dreaming became harder for me, not easier, since leaving the Christian faith and beginning practices such as meditation. I do not know what the truth may be here so I do not claim to know. What I do know, for certain, is that I didn't need any esoteric practices to get started, and what I came into it, that was the first time I ever heard about it. I didn't know anything at all about it beforehand, at least under the name lucid dreaming, although I had recorded my dreams in times past. If you are a Buddhist or adopting Buddhist practices, then I would advise you learn how to be considerate, gentle and loving. When I first read these words you wrote earlier today, already very depressed, it was like I was already beaten down then you came by and kicked me in the balls. Repeatedly. These are not the actions or words of any Buddhist monk to my knowledge, although as I have limited knowledge, I could be mistaken. I can accept that the Tibetans figured out a way to apply Buddhst practices, including meditation and lucid dreaming, to their own unique culture. It has since developed as a separate branch of the same tree. But if one culture can take these teachings and apply them in a way that speaks to them and works with them, then another culture can too. We do not need Americans sittings in Tibetan Buddhist temples chanting and doing everything else I stated above. We need to grow an American culture branch of these practices. There is absolutely no need for all the mumbo-jumbo and religious overtones of Tibetan Buddhism. We have to meet people where they are, not where we want them to be, and certainly not where we insist they be. So let's figure out a way to bring the core, foundational material into American culture. Let's make this work for people who do not want to sit for hours on end meditating, who, in fact, derive little if any benefit from meditation. Let's throw out the psychological mumbo-jumbo too. I agree with you about that. Let's distill this down to its essence, so anyone, anywhere in the world, can use it and easily as well as effortlessly lucid dream. Instead of trying to conform others to whatever we want, lets love and accept them as they are and work with them from there. This is the sort of information and materials I am looking for in this thread. You can leave your esoteric and religious hammers at the door. There will be no conformity or conversion here. I have tried to put this as plainly, politely and simply as possible. If I have failed please accept my apologies. Please note I am not a monk, and have no monk-like disposition. I spent 10 days being, essentially, brainwashed during a Vipassana Meditation "retreat." I have had my fill of that shit for the remainder of this year, at least. FYI I have B Alan Wallace's, "Dreaming Yourself Awake" and have started to read it. So while I may not necessarily agree with what you have said, I will read and apply the teachings of this book, coming to see in my own experience how this approach works for me. I am doing that much at least. I can not say I appreciate what you have said. But I do appreciate that you took the time to post and share knowledge. Thank you for that. seekingbuddha If you would like to clear up any of my misunderstandings, I am listening, I will be open and receptive, at least initially.

as I love to hear my voice (or read my scribbles) -> the middle way in it's highest formulation might be non abiding Nirvana (the one beyond the two extremes of samsara/nirvana) the union of appearance/emptiness freedom from all conceptual elaboration etc. also I feel the pairs of opposites are not a real problem, short/long is not a problem as long as we don't think there is an ultimately short or long phenomena (I remember being 16 years old and having all sorts of complexes about a certain maybe not long enough thing betwenn my legs ) same with subject/object - once we fully understand that its just an apparition, a dream, mirage, hologram etc. then it looses its spell on us doesn't mean it stops dancing! - Longchenpa wrote a whole book on that fact called "resting in Illusion" - once you fully realize its all a dream, an illusion then you can truly rest "in" illusion! I asked one lama about "how the madhyamikas not refute the self as a mere label on the conventional level" He said that the self as a mere label can't be refuted because it arises if you want it or not as long as the causes and conditions are complete it will arise - just like an elephant created in a magical show will arise as long as the causes and conditions are assambled and complete same with this feeling of "I" to come back to the example he said if you would fully understand that the magic elephant is just magic, just a hologram then why would you be afraid of it? It is not real after all! same with the "I" - if we truly understand how it is just a label - and that labels have no existence themselves, we would be liberated remember the robe in the dark example? its like that So I guess, I GUESS!!! that subject arising and perceived object arising is not in itself the problem - its just how conventional reality functions - problem is thinking its really happening, if we would fully comprehend the dreamlike arising of perceiving subject and perceived object then there is no problem and we can enjoy the magic show that is what I guess, I will actually ask my lamas about that and let you know ias soon as I know

I am now at chapter 74 of 基督山恩仇記 or ji du shan en chou ji. I said I read this book in English twice before. The first time in early 70s. The second time was in late 80s. So much of what I read in English existed vaguely in mist of my memories. In this reading in Chinese, I am enjoying it in details and richness almost akin to reading it for the first time. Or rather, in hearing it spoken in Chinese via Google translate and myself following the fantiji chinese words in print via http://mandarinspot.com/annotate In next letter I will show you the usefulness of using http://mandarinspot.com/annotate. I have seen folks asking to read newspaper in Chinese. I can only say do not ever do that if you are not good with Chinese, or even if you are very good (as expat) in Chinese if ever you want to get into the Chinese language and thoughts. You have rode in taxis before. Where the taxi drivers almost always felt they are F1 drivers overlooked by others and therefore they will drive taxis in style of F1 drivers. Writers and editors of Chinese Newspaper felt that they are overlooked denizens of Hanlinyuan 翰林院 "Hanlin Academy" . https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hanlin_Academy They felt compelled to write in WenYenWen when simple sentences in Chinese will do just like taxi drivers compelled to drive like F1 racers. Further more, newspaper articles are short and require you to know almost every word those aspiring Hanlinyanist dug out from obscure chinese dictionaries. Getting into Chinese via Chinese newspaper is akin to wanking yourself with a handful of coarse grit and sand versus getting into Chinese via a good long novel (can even be Chinese sex stories) is akin to wanking yourself with Ponds cold cream. You need to make this journey as enjoyable as you can. This will be a long journey. I reckon you might take 3 months. Which will be better than that 3 years and more that almost all other expats assured that you will take, while wanking yourself with wet coarse grit I can hardly think people can do things painful to them, useless as tits on a man, and continue to final conclusion of getting into Chinese An American's humorous perspective about Why Chinese Is So Damn Hard. In long stories such as 基督山恩仇記 or ji du shan en chou ji, love was spelled in in different exquisite ways repeated and repeated. Or vengence or how vengence to be carried out spelled out in details from different angles thereby ensuring you understand the different nuances of love and vengence on how 基督山 伯爵 Jidushan bo jue (count of Monte Cristo) carried that out. Words and paragraphs repeated with different variations to enable you to see the height of their love or vengence taken and executed. And thereby allowing you to see the same group of chinese words used in different ways in ways that you enjoy and never forget without the efforts of commiting that into memory. If you want to commit all that into memory, then go and re-read in chinese 2 or 3 or more times. As a reflection of how far I had gone on this road, I wrote a note way way back in 1990s when I first started in Taiwan and you can see how abysmal my chinese was. Much of what I wrote lost when that demonic entity fingered my hard drive Fragments of earlier memories of Taiwan Extracted From http://shanlung.com/taroko90dec.htm Written in almost real time there and then. 29 Dec 90 I have planned to spend the New Year long weekend at Hohuan Shan. I thought I would walk up from Tayuling and then down to Wushu returning to Taipei. As the bus from Hualien to Tayuling will leave only at 730am, it did not really matter if I leave Taipei late on Saturday. That timing was fateful, as was the can of Pepsi I bought. I took the 11.43pm train from Taipei to Hualien. I bought some snacks and a Pepsi from the Station. Finished the snack and fell asleep on the train. 30 Dec 90 They woke me up at Hualien. That can was still unopened. Taking that with me, I slung on the backpack and walked out of the station. Pulled the tab and strode on into the cold morning air of Hualien City. I wanted to go to the nearby park to watch the dawn breaking over the city. Walking past the bus stop, I thought it would be more comfortable to sit there and finished the Pepsi first. There were some Taiwanese there sleeping and sitting at the bench when I made my way to a seat. A conversation started up with three guys there. They had backpacks all over, and I think people with backpacks always find others with backpacks to be fascinating to each other. While we may have different dreams and routes, we share the same urge to explore and find out a bit more of our world. That curiosity extends to people as well. Besides, talking about routes help to pool information for any later plans. They knew I was not a local from the way I talked. They were intrigued by the way I wandered around by myself here in Taiwan.Told them also of the way I checked out other parts of the world by myself. The talk switched to philosophy and political world. I guessed that failed when they brought in one more member of their group as interpreter. She told them I was talking on 'Eastern Europe' and not 'Eastern neu-rou' and that have nothing to do with neu-rou mein or neu-rou chang (this is directly translated to 'beef place', a place where pretty girls will sing two songs each, the first song will be sang in beautiful elegant outfits, and the second song with just their shoes and a smile). The disparity of what I was saying and what they thought they were comprehending was so vast. That knowledge of the standard of Chinese I commanded depressed me. I wondered that perhaps my earlier conversation with them on philosophical matters must also have taken on warped undertones as well. I reckoned if I try to set that right, even greater damages may result. I gave a big sigh deep inside my mind. Her name is Amanda and she has a friend Chin-hua with her( I tend to pay more attention and remember girls' names better). It was getting about 5am, I suggested we could perhaps walk on to the bus station about 1/2 hour away. They woke up the rest of the group, a guy with his newly wed wife, her sister and boyfriend, and a girl with a most enchanting voice like notes tinkling from wind-chimes. A pretty girl with delicate Chinese features and who smiled from her heart. I gathered they were going to walk on an old road at the Taroka Gorge though I was still not clear of the details yet. I gathered the road was somewhat above the existing road that the traffic runs. I thought it was going to be a fairly easy walk. I enjoyed their company, and I thought where I wanted to go can still be done another time by myself. A trip on their route may not be possible on my own. They readily accepted me when I asked to join them. Shortly after breakfast, we left on the local bus to Taroka Gorge. It was driven by a very friendly man who became even friendlier and talkative when he heard from them where they intended to go. We dropped at the bridge shortly after a dam. We clambered 20' down rocks,a little bit different from the 'old road' I expected to 'walk' on. I thought that's only the start, and that it should get easier later on. Never was I more wrong. We crossed the bridge to the other side of the Gorge. We then climbed up more boulders, pushed through some under growth, and down onto the river bank. I cracked my right knee on the first jump, just what I need to add to my left ankle, still wobbly after the wrench it received 6 weeks back. Grit my teeth , told them no problem and continued. The pain eased after a while. I knew I dressed wrongly, having thermal undershirt on with thick T shirt and padded shirt. Also had on my old pair of jeans meant for walking. That was with me for over 15 years and we have been to many treks together. It was too tight to allow me to bend my legs freely to climb up or down. I thought I was going for a walk in the cold air of Tayuling to Hohuanshan in the first place. Stripped off my shirt as I was over heating in the climbing up and down of the boulders along the bank. It was fun still. The boulders appeared so deceptively small when seen from the roadside. They were the size of big buses and cars we have to climb over. At one place, we had to take off our shoes and socks to wade in the swift cold water of the river. The smoothness of the boulders,despite their size, gave an idea of the force of the river at its peak flow. Powerful as the river was, the driftwood packed twenty feet above the water line showed what it could really do. Those boulders must have been washed along like pebbles. The banks were molded out of granite and marble. History of powerful events of long time past where recorded in the striations. They were further twisted and fused by the forces of the tectonic plates grinding and heating them. Pages of the history of the world written in a way befitting to them. To add to the fun, at one point, some yellowish metallic particles were found in the sand. One of the guy collected a fair bit of that. I thought they were probably mica. However, when examined through a magnifying glass, they appeared to be granular and not flaky. I did not see any quartz normally associated with gold, should that really have been gold. If I had, I would have collected some myself. I thought also if all those shining stuff have been gold, people would have been mining and panning for those stuff as well. We climbed up and down, transfering backpacks. I felt embarrased at the weight of those three leaders' pack. They must have packed a lot of gear. My own pack was light, consisting mainly of warm clothing. I noticed those three were normally in front actively seeking out the route. I wondered why are we looking up at people at the road above us when we should be looking down on them far below as briefed earlier. They did their best, but it was not passable. We turned back the same way we came by to the bridge. We rested at the northern tunnel which seemed to be abandoned half constructed. It had chinese words saying it was connected with hydroelectic power. Still, looking at the construction, it contained certain characteristics and seemed to be designed for military uses. I have build and seen enough of such features. They pulled from the packs stoves, pots and pans and cooked up a meal of instant mee. Very tasty too. Also showed a little bit why the packs were heavy. After a short rest, we carried on by the main road. Looking back across where we tried to travel, we could see why it took us two hours to get to a point where the main road on the other side took us 20 minutes. At the point where we turned back, not even a mountain goat could get through. Just before Yen-chi-kou, there is a spidery suspension bridge of steel wire and bamboo spanning the river 200' below us. The leader pointed us to go down. By now I expect the unexpected. I peered over the road edge to see a series of flimsy ladders going down. It moved with my every step. I thought it to be dangerous. When I finished with the trip, I would have consider that to be so ridiculously safe. The bridge could take us across one at a time. The swaying could get you queasy but it was fun in its own way. The other side have broad paths of cobble stones. The way water were seeping out from the wall, a series of pools of clear running water were formed like fountain terraces backed against the cobble paths where they seeped through in turn. It was a beautiful day with little wisps of clouds and a nice warm sun. The green trees and bushes marching down the gorge slope made us linger on a while. I was fascinated with the tadpoles in the pools. Acid rain and other pollutants have apparently wiped out a lot of the frogs in Europe and North America. As amphibians they seem to be most sensitive to the effects of man. Whether we shrugged off their departure or we take them as canaries used at mines where their deaths will give early warnings to miners is up to us. I am happy to see them around. As we gathered to move on, I offered to switch the heaviest pack as I felt guilty. They declined assuring me it is ok with them. We went up the slope on a little path. Zig and zag up the side. The trees and undergrowth were thick and cannot be seen through to a distant. Now and then, yellow trail markers were tied to indicate the path. It was tiring and hot. The nice warm sun that felt so nice earlier seemed to be making its effect even through the cool leaves. I was glad no one took up my offer to switch packs. 15 minutes took us to another suspension bridge spanning a chasm. I thought the 'road' would start there as that was a big red bridge easily seen from the main road. There was no 'road'. If one look carefully amonge the bushes to the side after the bridge, a little path can be seen. Seems like the bridge was build big and painted a nice red so pretty pictures can be taken of it by tourist in their buses on the main road. The uphill climb continued. The mountain slope is a good 65-70 degree. The path twist and turned upwards. The air must be cool. After all, it is supposed to be winter, on a mountain slope with air filtered by green leaves. Others are wearing thick sweaters and moving on smoothly. I only feel my sweat coming out, flowing down my back. I breath heavily, to draw in more cool air. I meditate on ice orange juice . I switched to thinking of wind-swept Artic winter. I imagined the soaked thermal underwear and T shirt to be evaporating and cooling me. My legs kept moving. I looked above at the swaying hips of girls and imgagined how the rest of their bodies would looked like to distract myself. My body could not transcend to those thoughts. I poured and poured sweat. Then the upward climb ended after rounding a group of boulders. We reached a meadow where we rested. I could only think of water to drink. After a long draw at the bottle, my mind then recovered enough to look around. Before us, stretched a field of waving 'Maung chow' grass in full flower. The sloping light of the sun backlight the bushy tops in a soft silvery glow. On a gentle rise just behind the field, humble dwellings of two families can be seen. Then the ground rose again into a knoll. Two jagged mountain tops appear behind them with white scars tracing where parts broke off into screes dusting lower parts of it. Clouds flow past them playing a game of hide and seek . Right of the clearing, the forest grew rising and dipping carpeting the slope in different shades of green towards the top. Now and then, maple trees with red leaves made crimsom splashes in that sea of green. Standing on the boulder, the other side of the gorge loomed upwards. The main road and traffic could just be made out at the foot far below. Yes, I could see that we are way above them now. We walked on to the huts. That place is called Pata-Kang. There were two families there from the Tai-yah-chu hill tribe. Their traditions were fast fading. They lived off the land on sweet potatoes and other crops they grow. The youngest is a toddler about 3 years old. One of them was said to be near one hundred years old and looked like it. She have a broad black band tattooed across her mouth. They allowed us to camp and presented us with some sweet potatoes. Three tents were quickly set up. Stoves, pots and pans and a staggering amount of food poured from the backpacks. That explained the weight of some of the packs. The girls got organised and I tried not to get in their way. We ate and ate. Fruits were Mandarin oranges and tiny hill peaches taken off the orchard nearby. Flickering flames from a big wax torch lit up the night while we glutted ourselves. The tattooed lady joined us producing a bottle of rice wine. I bribed her with cigarettes to get a share. It tasted so nice in that cool night air. None of the other guys wanted it. Yu Hwa, the girl with the tinkling voice liked the aroma and joined us two in enjoying the wine. We sat around and talked away in the warm afterglow of a good meal and our sense of achievement of that day. They still thought I was a bit unusual in traveling so much on om own. Then a voice broke in on us. My jaws dropped along with the others at the sight of this guy walking nonchalantly into the circle of light with his backpack and a small torchlight slung over his shoulder asking if he could join in. It was tough enough during daylight hours to get up. He came in alone in the middle of the night like he was strolling to the 7-11 store. When asked how he felt about coming up alone at night, he said "oh yes, it was a bit scary". We laughed at his understatement breaking the ice, if any. Quite a good looking slim guy and charming too. It was interesting to see Amanda (the interpreter) and her girfriend Chin-hwa talking to him like probing his suitability as a boyfriend. I must say that is my guess from the body languages expressed as they were using their normal chinese too rapid for me to understand and not the simple one they used with me. The others soon prepared to go to sleep. I declined their sincere invitations to join them in the tents. I have been told by friends I snore and I do not wish to strain the new friendships I have made.I also do not sleep early. The night was really too beautiful up there by the mountainside. The moon was nearly full, lighting up the surrounding with its silvery beams, almost bright enough to read by. The air had just a slight nip of chill. The down sleeping bag I was in would be enough. The canopy of the sky was comforting . It was one of those rare moments in life where it is good to sleep under the stars. I took out a candle preparing to read Barry Lopez's latest book, 'Crossing Open Ground' before I sleep. Lone Ranger joined me shortly. Found he is better known as Chen-hung. He lectures in software and 'C' language when he is not roaming around the mountains on foot or on his mountainbike normally on his own. He decided too that the night is too beautiful to sleep in the tent and dragged his sleeping bag out as well. We talked on for a long time, sharing our experiences and philosophies, too complex to put into words here. Went to sleep as we did not want to disturb others too much. I think we may see a bit of each other after the trip. 31 Dec 90 Woke up from a good sleep I have had. The wind blew up a bit during the night. I was aware of it in my dreams. Nice to be wrapped up in the sleeping bag and cocooned by the raw elements. Felt good to have been near and intimate with Mother Nature. We all packed and prepared to continue on. Chen-hung said his goodbyes and continued on while we carried on with the breakfast. We then loaded up with water and went on. The trail snaked up behind the fruit trees at the back. I got an inkling from the day before and stripped down to a T shirt and jeans this time as it was hot work walking up. Got to know better what we were doing too. I first thought we were going on some road build in the Ming dynasty because of the name . It was Mingkuo chu liu nien (translated roughly to 6 years from the start of the present rule started by Dr Sun Yat Seng) or 74 years back. It was the only way through the gorge before the new road was carved out recently. Now the old road is used mainly by hikers. Not many hikers here. We did not see anyone else coming or going on this way unlike the normal 'renshan renhai'(mountains of men and seas of men) that packed and jammed others places I have been to here in Taiwan. I shortly understood the reasons why. The climb started upwards sharply again after the little knoll. We got into the rythmn . Consisting of weaving our ways up the forested slope on the path marked out by other groups. Couldn't see much of the woods for the trees so to speak. Compared to the later part of the day, the morning climb had no difficult spots to speak about other than the physical task of taking yourself and your pack up the slope. It was tiring work. The heat build up in my body wasn't so bad. We stopped for welcomed short breaks now and then. We could then look around and admire the view if there were breaks in the trees. During the walk up, one have to concentrate on the foot holds and the surroundings could not be taken in well. The dynamics of the group was getting clearer to me as well. The first three guys I meet took us all up. Lee Wen-hwa, the leader of the group took up the rear. He seemed serious and wrapped in his thoughts as the trip went on. Lee Chinghai and Ting Huakuan took the front actively seeking the path markers. They were more relaxed , possibly less burdened with the responsibility of the group. Amanda bubbled along with energy ,quite expressive with her voice and gestures as to her likes and dislikes. Chinhwa, her goodnatured friend was more quiet and always seemed happy. Hsu and Shi kept much with the Lin sisters in their quiet little group. I concentrated on absorbing as much as I could of the feeling of this place. About midday, the steep almost continous upwards climb ended. We came to an overgrown rough path which could be seen easily unlike much of the trail before. It turned sharply right punching through an outcrop of the moutain. It was a short lenght of tunnel that we would have camped in last night if not for the time lost in the morning. Beautiful place where we had a short break. A maple tree was at the edge. The sun overhead shining behind it made its red leaves glow like rubies. The richness of the red against the light blue skies can only be captured in the mind's eye. We walked on. I was already deliriously happy with the exquisite beauty of such a place. Then after another turn in the trail, the true grandeur and the magnitude of the trail broke on me. The trees fell away as the side of the mountain plunged into an 85 degree drop. The tiny path was hacked and blasted as a little niche in the sharply sloping granite walls of the mountain. The mountains marched motionlessly on to the horizon. Down, down at the bottom of the gorge the river flowed as a tiny trickle of water. A thin ribbon of black with just barely discernable box like objects was the road with their tourist buses. The mountains we were on were accompanied by the mountains on the other side of the gorge. They seemed alive infused with a bemused air at us. Stillness of the Tao and motion without motion. The mind expand and the body falls away as the consciousness struggled to take it all in. That subconscious attempt conflict with yet another part of the mind yearning to stay in the comfort of a smaller world where the Id is tangibly bigger in comparison. Like a frog taken out of the well to see the world and finding how small it actually is against that scale, then struggling to get back in preferring the more comforting illusion the whole world is in the well. Tiny bushes, flowers and ferns clung on to life even on the bare granite walls and the path we were on. I walked in small measured steps half in reverence for that place and to savour the feeling in the air. Also, perched on that 2 feet wide path suspended 2000 feet above the ground below by an almost vertical granite wall doesn't make you want to take very wide steps. Helped also by the granite chippings which skid a bit now and then. And thinking of the earthquake which struck Hualien with a force of 6 on Richter scale only a weekback. And that 600 over earthquakes struck Taiwan every year. I was happy no strong winds were blowing to add in the fun. I recalled a walk on a similar path a few years back after Jomosom in Himalayas where I faced winds gusting between force 2 to 5. That was a very long 400 meters stretch. When then path turned around the shoulder, I was relieved to be back in a more sheltered stretch . The slope wasn't vertical allowing soil to support trees growing there. Nice for this frog to be back in a well. Then, the path twisted out again. With the road far far below , and we were walking on the ledge once more. Earthquakes did not hit us then. But over 67 years, it hit the trail many times. It is a measure of how well it was build by those brave people way back then that the trail remained intact most of the way. It is only in a few places where the mountain cracked and tumbled down, taking the trail with it leaving empty gaps. At those places, the 2 feet wide track I thought to be scary looked so safe and comforting to be on when you crossed the gaps. They span them with little pieces of wood tied up with thin wires. I looked at my lifeline etched in my palm to reassure myself many times that day. I became very conscious of the 105 kilo I packed into a pair of shoes. At times, we have to make our way down across debris of granite and marble boulders and clawed our way back up again. Or up over the break and down again to the path. At places, thin steel cables were in place to assist. If your footing gave way, those cables would slice into your palms. Movements have to be made very slow with fingers feeling for every fissure and feet placed very carefully. Had to expand the consciousness to heighten the awareness of the environment and every movement made with slow deliberation. At lips of overhangs, the path was the dust which gathered on the tangled roots of grass. They gave slightly with every step. In addition to those plastic strips of trail markers, we looked for 'lohans' or little rocks piled up to show the way. The knee hurt a bit especially on the downhill parts across the debris. It would be a bad place to have further injuries. The jeans I wore as I thought I would be walking did were difficult to climb with. I should have just changed them but never thought of it then. Stiff-legged myself down by the seat of the pants over rocks the size of small cars and inched up again. Those three guys have been incredible in getting us all across. At bad places, they got over and ferried the backpacks to the other side. I found it tough enough without the packs and they crossed with that on. Of the three, Ting was the mountain goat. Small size but really tough guy. My heart dropped to see him move at some places. He have an incredible eye for ledges and footholds which do not exist till you see him like walking on air. People seating in cushioned comfort in buses and wooing and wowing at the river a few hundred feet below them and probably thinking that was all to it at Taroka gorge could not imagine the drama played 2000 feet above them. They may, but I wasn't looking at them. At one part, the pieces of wood I was worried about have been longed for. One strand of wire hung down from the other side. An earthquake took out our side leaving a gap of about 15 feet. They got the packs over. Positioned themselves to pass the girls across. I have to say, the girls were courageous. Anyone panicking will not panick for long. I crossed last. I spend the time in re studying the foot and hand holds, replaying that over in my mind a few times to make sure my movements would be smooth. I had to depend on myself as I do not want to take the chance of pulling anyone.. Taking faith in that only the good die young, I moved through like a wraith in a dream. That was a very very long two seconds in my life. Anyone of those crossings will be enough to flavour the trip. Just like a little bit of chilli will be nice with food, but a lot of it really spice it up to the stage that the whole mouth becomes numb. It was like that on that trail. What would have been dangerous were became routinely expected. The already tremendous experience from the view transcended further into one where we walked with our souls. We have been lucky. The weather was fine. If it have had rained, some of those crossings would not be passable. We ran short of water. I sweated a lot and the dehydration was getting in on me. We have been moving with very little stops since morning when we set out. No lunch either except for the beef jerky and chocolates and caramel sweets I had with me that we shared. We wanted to get to a place with water for the night. Exhaustion was setting in as well. In the late afternoon, every stop would have me out completely in a dreamless sleep, sometimes not even taking off the backpack. Night came. We carried on a while with torchlight. The concentration required to walk on safely cannot be sustained with the fatigue and using torchlight. Those three must have came to the same conclusion. They called a halt where the path broaden a bit. I dimly recalled pulling out the sleeping bag, changing out of my sodden clothings and sleeping immediately. Woke at 11pm with most of the fatigue gone. Found the three have courageously gone on to try to get water. The rest of us were resting across the path shrouded with trees on both sides. So many times I woked up on New year day with hangover vowing I will spend a 'dry' New years eve. I got to do it this time, the last day of this decade. I thought of my friends who would be drinking away wondering where they are and the cheers they would be exchanging. It would be a New year eve I will always remember. Tried to bring comfort to the girls assuring that those three would be safe as time went on and they did not return. I felt they must have been tired also and would be back in the morning. Spoke to Shi taking turns with him to keep watch. Some moonlight filtered in through the trees allowing a bit of visibility. It would be comforting place, but the absence of those three gave me a deep disquiet and troubled all of us. 1 Jan 1991 Light broke. I decided to stay in the trackpants I used for sleeping. I knew I could not take the girls across the way others did. In case they did not get back, I have to assume the worse and go down myself to get help from other people. I threw the jeans down the slope among the trees and bushes. It will be a fitting rest for it from the trips we shared together. It also lightened my load. If necessary, I might abandon the backpack as well. The others wanted to leave that place. I told them those three would have started at day break. It may take 1 1/2 hours. That place we were at have been the best place to rest since the whole afternoon before. We should wait for them there. If they did not get back by 730am, I would go down while they stayed. I felt good when at about 7am, we heard a whistle. Then their shouts from across a valley. I never wanted to be a hero. Heros are good guys and they normally die young. Especially since by doing so, it would have meant that those three have met with accidents. They got back with the water 20 minutes later. They got down allright. Lost their way getting back. They were tired and rested till daybreak before getting back. That water was important. We cooked breakfast and drank to our hearts' content. Giving us the strenght to continue on. We still had to make a few more dangerous crossings. I would have hate to do it by myself even in the morning without the food and drink. It would be very dangerous when done at night. Only they could have done it. It exceeded by far what the other guy have done the night before. After that, it was all downhill. We took all together about 3 hours to get to the spring water at the bottom of a valley strewn with huge marble boulders the size of houses. From then it was easy. We made our way to the main road. Got out near a bridge. I forgot the name, but on the other side of the bridge is a gigantic boulder with a little pavilion build on top. Thumb down a lorry which gave us a lift to Tienchi a few kilometers down the road. While forest and wilderness are nice, I must say so is civilization where there are restaurants and cold drinks. Interesting coincidence was the bus driver taking us back to Hualien was the same stout friendly driver who took us there originally. Found he was called Mr Yen. He detoured the bus to drop us at the railway station. I have to say it was a real good trip. I do not know if I get such experiences again. But one thing for sure, I will find out. aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa So now you got to know how I got to know ChengHung. And from him other Taiwanese friends. I felt compelled to give them what I could give. The most important part (in addition to friendship), was to drag as many of them kicking and screaming into the English world. As said, after they studied for years every year in school and every year in University, they could not speak or write two coherent sentences in English. But get it straight, they were so goddamn smart in English that I could even feel embarrased. They knew more grammars in English, present particibles, active particibles, future indefinate, blah bal blah then I knew ever existed. They knew english words of more syllables that I could not even recalled the first syllable by time they got to the last syllable. But they could not speak or write two fucking coherent sentences in English unless they recite it from a book or from their incredible memory. There were at least 4 males that graduated from my course. Much like my telling you all here. You have to drop English totally when you are in Chinese, and for them to totally drop Chinese when they are in English. I explained to them that perhaps they needed to use mental translation of English into Chinese and then Chinese into English at the early stage. Using analogy of you having broken your leg and needing a crutch to walk on initially. But once your leg healed, using that crutch to walk meant you cannot ever walk or think of running. Furthermore to translate in the head, meant that word already known. And if they know the word why the fuck do they need to do mental translation? In English time with me, I watched their eyes. The moment the eyes rolled up, they would be doing mental translation which earned them a yell and scream from me and smiles from them in wonder how I knew they were doing mental translations. I got them books tuned to their interest. For Chenhung it was a book on mountain climbing in English. For another it was a book on collected stories of Sherlock Holmes. And for another it was on computers. For another, the son of Mr Yu that I gave Tinkerbell to, itwas Peter Pan. http://shanlung.livejournal.com/14633.html All tuned to what I knew that they love. I sat with each of them going through the first 20 pages or so. To the point I knew the love for their subject ignited. And most important of all, that they did not even realised that they were actually reading in English as their enjoyment for what they were reading overcomed their ingrained fear of English. I was never their teacher in English. I was their catalyst to make them use English. And after that , they all could write and speak 4 or more coherent sentences in English. The same did not happen to the girls. We all got too distracted and found more interesting and important things to do than to yank them kicking and screaming into English. Idiotic Taoist all ready to read 鹿鼎記 https://en.wikipedia...nd_the_Cauldron once I finished with Count of Monte Cristo - and when I then finished Romance of the 3 Kingdoms , I might then think I will do TTC

Does he also teach yoga nidra? Dream yoga and yoga nidra go hand in hand beautifully. I'm making the taoist dream techniques my primary framework to build this practice on. I personally find it to be more effortless and deeply covers more ground with less work. I'm also more drawn to working with the tanden/dantian system than the chakra system. Even though the taoist dream practice is a very complete system I'm still very interested in seeing how the hindus and buddhists do their dreamwork just so I can compare and perhaps learn something new that I may be able to incorporate. I think that the Buddhists put a heavy emphasis on dream practice specifically for the purpose of being able to recognize the state of death. Taoists may have a completely different approach like immortality and merging with the macrocosmos (sun, earth, moon, stars etc). Taoists may also be more forgiving (perhaps even encourage) on using dream practices for pleasure, experiences, adventures, sources of inspiration and entertainment. The dzogchen guys look down on it and find it to be a distraction. I could be wrong on these generalizations. At the end of the day it's about doubling your life. Immortals do not sleep. How can something that is conscious in the sleep and dream state be unconscious? The ones who go through their sleep and dream life unconscious are those who are asleep and unaware (as if in a trance) in their "waking" lives. This reminds me of Shakyamuni when he was asked if he was a spirit, god or a man and his response was "I am awake". It's the same with conscious dreaming. If you are truly awakened in your waking life then you will bring that awareness with you into the energetic dream space. You also bring more of that awareness of the dream space with you back into your waking life. Really amazing how this works.

Conscious dreaming CANNOT be separated from its spiritual/esoteric component regardless of whether it's from a Buddhist or taoist background. Can it work without? Yes. But you will have very limiting and varying results and it will reach the point to which it'll make your attempts futile. Stephen LaBerge took the Tibetan foundational practices, stripped it out of its spirituality and added a few psychological tricks. His dream mask does not work and is a complete waste of time and money. One major component to successful dream practice is mindful awareness. This can be achieved through shikantaza or vippashyana meditation. Both spiritual practices. LaBerge's method relies on heavy and artificial forcing of awareness that has very limiting results in the end. By working on mindful awareness and getting it to the point that it's at an enlightened level then conscious dreaming becomes effortless. After you become proficient through practice effortless is the way it's meant to be. Dream practice is a yin practice. The yang element is nothing more than the expression of your will. Your intention. Intention is a very important element in dream practice. Have the intention to remember your dreams. Have the intention to become conscious in your dreams. Have the intention to recharge as you sleep consciously (taoist power napping and yoga nidra) and the intention to wake up at a certain time so that you reinforce remembering your nightly journeys. This is also a spiritual practice. Even more so when you make intentions by moving the energies in your body through the microcosmic orbit. As far as using ki is concerned, this is very important in the taoist dream practice because it elongates the window of opportunity to create an intention to dream consciously right before you zonk out. You're taking the narrow strip between waking consciousness and dream consciousness (call it a neutral force) and making it longer so that you have the opportunity to set your intention to dream, have the equivalent of 8 hours rest in just 4 or travel through energetic planes. The Tibetans like to visualize a lotus flower with a bright red/Orange flame burning in the middle. This flame is supposed to represent the light of awareness. I greatly admire the Tibetans and their visualization skills. They reach the point to which they can close their eyes and recreate the physical world in their visualizations in all 5 senses vividly. These advanced visualizations are done in the waking state and can be used to literally meditate yourself into a dream. Ironically the Tibetan practices are much more psychologically practical then the spiritually void and handicapped psychological tricks proposed by LaBerge and the western circus of "rational" thinkers. Even the taoist approach of lucid living (cultivation of awareness) is an infinitely more logical approach. The Taoist approach works with the energy body throughout the day and emphasizes qigong a lot more which is also more conducive to conscious dreaming. You don't need to wake up feeling punch drunk at 2:30 or 5:30 a.m. to write half a dozen boring dream journals, perform 500 different reality checks a day or work on ridiculous exercises like prospective memory. Forget about that. If the western psychological B.S. is going to be your main approach of becoming a proficient and skilled lucid dreamer you will find yourself very disappointed in the end. Again, the western techniques are very varying and super limiting. Very mentally taxing with very little reward for ALL your hard work and effort. If you're looking for sources I suggest getting anything put out by Tibetan or taoist dream practitioners. I think Tenzin Wangyal Rinponche gives courses online. On the taoist side I think Juan Li is the guy you wanna go to. Juan makes himself a little bit difficult to reach unfortunately. Michael Winn sells an audio course. Expensive and also frustrating because it's so long and disorganized and comes with so much filler. If you have the patience his can work also. The Attention Revolution by Alan Wallace emphasizes meditations such as shamatha and vippashyana. Both forms of meditation are firmly grounded in spiritual practices and very useful for conscious dreaming because they build concentration and mindful awareness. I personally think that zen style meditations are more practical because you simultaneously build both concentration and mindfulness in a balanced manner. It's also useful for learning to suspend your thoughts and controlling the monkey mind. Ironically the zen schools could care less about conscious dreaming.

Thanks! I found it good, I was lucid dreaming previous to it, for me all I really need is intention (meditation before sleeping helps), going to bed early with a light stomach, being well hydrated and natural deep breathing, I find peppermint oil enhances this and clarity. Sleeping with amethyst under my pillow too. + Keeping a dream journal writing down everything you remember in the morning/waking at night even if small.

A few comments from my own dream practice: The specific method may be less important than cultivating the proper approach and attitude. The intent, dedication, and consistency are critical. The practice needs to be a 24 hour cycle - daytime, preparation for sleep, during sleep, and upon awakening. Alcohol and drugs can erase months of work in no time at all... Cultivating lucidity has been quite elusive for me but I have had a lot of great success. It took me a very long time to see results. We have to be patient and supportive of ourselves. We need to be committed but not overly serious. Playful but consistent. Reverent but relaxed. I think the more esoteric approaches have one significant advantage - integrating the spiritual view and practices with the dream practice makes it easier for us to connect to ourselves at a deeper, more subtle level. Dream practice is about building a bridge between the light and the dark, the obvious and the subtle, between two realities. If we can develop a feeling of reverence and great respect, it helps. If we can develop great confidence and trust in the method and the teacher, it helps. This is why connecting to your body when you do daytime practices and reminders is so important. The message, the bridge, needs to connect deeper than the intellect for it to come up in dream. I suggest you connect with your body, allow the mind and internal dialogue to settle, feel and rest in that internal space, feel supported and comfortable there, connect for a while and then give yourself whatever instruction or reminder you prefer (I use - this is a dream, this is a dream, I am free to do anything, this is a dream... and so on). Try to repeat this at least 15 times a day. If you're willing to spend a little cash there are frequent online workshops available from a variety of good teachers here - http://www.glidewing.com/ (Robert Waggoner, Marc Allen, Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche) Finally, I'd highly recommend Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep. Even though it is quite esoteric, it has a great deal of valuable information much of which is easily adaptable to a more secular approach. While you may chose not to practice the specific techniques the book is well worth reading. Good luck!