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Your post may present an understanding of the aspect of view, but not the realization. The realization is as Namdrol describes how the view dissolves into a wisdom that perceives all appearances as being like a magician's trick, like mirage, dream, form, bubbles, etc. The view aspect is as I describe here: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/07/view.html The View Posted by: An Eternal Now Just posted in The Tao Bums a week ago: I have just come to a new realisation of the implications of views in daily life. I could have misunderstood what goldisheavy meant but I think it has to do with the fields of meaning. I have realised how ideas, beliefs, notions, views pervade our life and causes attachment. I now see that every single attachment is an attachment to view, which, no matter what it is, comes to two basic clinging: the view 'there is' and the view 'there isn't'. I started by noticing how in the past I had a sense of self, body and awareness... That these all seem so real to me and I kept coming back to that subjective sense and this is no longer the case now: I don't even have a sense of a body nowadays. Then I realized that all these clingings are related to view. The view of There is.... Self, body, mind, awareness, world, whatever. Because of this clinging on to things as existent, they appear real to us and we cling to them. The only way to eradicate such clingings is to remove the root of clinging: the view of 'there is' and 'there isn't'. The realization of anatta removes the view of 'there is self', 'there is awareness' as an independent and permanent essence. Basically, any views about a subjective self is removed through the insight that "seeing is just the seen", the subject is always only its objective constituents. There is no more sense of self, body, awareness, or more precisely there is no clinging to a "there is" with regards to such labels. It is seen that these are entirely ungraspable processes. In short the clinging and constant referencing to an awareness, a self dissolves, due to the notion "there is" such things are being eradicated. The realization of dream-like reality removes the view of 'there are objects', the universe, the world of things... One realizes what heart sutra meant by no five skandhas. This is basically the same realization as anatta, except that it impacts the view "there is" and "there isn't" in terms of the objective pole, in contrast to the earlier insight that dissolves "there is" of a subjective self. What I have overlooked all these while is the implications of views and how the thicket of views cause all clingings and suffering and what underpins those thicket of views, and how realization affects and dissolves these views.

Thanks but no, I'm not deeply interested in it. Yeah, I will change my "hypothesis" to "theory". And yes, there has been a lot of professional, scientific work done and I'm sure it sill continues today. But you know me, I have never seen a ghost therefore ghosts do not exist. I don't recall dreaming therefore I did not dream. But back to meditating before this gets moved to "Off Topic". Hehehe. When I attain full empty-mindedness during my meditation I have no thoughts. Now, it really can't be said that my brain was empty. It is just that I was conscious of anything it was doing. Therefore I had no thoughts. Different forms of meditation are used for different purposes. If we get what we were after then it's all good.

Perhaps Buddhism resolves my issue though, by cultivating compassion in this particular way - 'Equalizing self and others’ means recognizing the equality of yourself and others in wishing to find happiness and wishing to avoid suffering. ‘Exchanging self and others’ means giving your own happiness to other sentient beings, and taking their suffering upon yourself. ‘Considering others as more important than yourself’ means setting aside your own benefit and accomplishing the benefit of others. Then compassion can be cultivated. But it becomes 'skillful' compassion, without sinking into ego strengthening. BTW, I'm not Buddhist, and my interest in compassion is not from a particular perspective except perhaps it is buddhism that has seen a way through this issue. I had a dream a long time ago where i was sitting in between 2 twins, the one on my right said 'when i think I think of others, the one on my left said 'when I think I think of myself'. I looked towards the one on my right and said 'I'm trying to be like you' and edged a bit closer to her. This seems like a personal version of the Buddhist practices above which T_I pointed to in his link, and something for me to contemplate on further to resolve my question.

hahaaha not like i pretend to understand the mother cosmos / creator / whatever but when i first started to get psychic impressions and messages in my body i was working with a shaman (cherokee) and he told me basically that the great spirit communicates with *everyone* in their own way and not to think i was special or fixate on the impressions i was getting, just remember that i should be grateful if i get a message that helps. also, it stands to reason that everything is dao, so i have never had a thought in my life, nor has anyone else, that wasnt a manifestation of dao! haha! seperation from the divine is a very western idea, and so then is the idea of "reconnecting with it"!? To me, life is the dream of godhead, and we are all characters in this great dreaming drama, so this very conversation contains the essence of divinity, as does the poo i just took, and everything else! we are all characters in creator's dream. So nothing, therefore, is seperate from creator, and nobody has ever had a thought which has not been of the origin of creator! how could one ever be seperate from creator, except in their own mind!? haha So when i hear people like tulku say "oh i hear the messages of creator, i am so high level, i am so special" i think to myself "no you have only begun to realize that the creator talks to you. soon you will begin to realize that the creator talks to everyone!"

Let's see.. Why does it appear these attacks are on the increase? When you've been alive and reading the news as long as I have, you realize there's an ebb and flow to things. Even with terrorism, if you cognizant in the 60's and 70's there were huge spikes. Many of it now is the (hopefully) death throws Daesh (Isis), as they're losing land they're sending propaganda to sympathetic and stupid individual to commit murder on there behalf. I'd also point out that refugees are a weapon of modern warfare. Nations would be better off creating safe zones in war torn countries, then taking in 100,000's or millions. Diverting some of the billions spent on modern war equipment into fast, decent refugee sites in there own countries, would solve much of the horrors of the latest migration. Especially if it went beyond housing into life quality programs. Horribly at times with less terrorism there seems to full blown wars that create destruction and body counts that make terrorism seem almost benign. Not to mention we tend to only be aware of terrorism when its in the West, ignoring the constant threat some of the world lives in. Is empathy the right approach? Yeah, without having a basis on empathy you don't understand Whys. You end up fighting symptoms and not the disease. It doesn't mean you don't punish. It means you go beyond just punishing and look at the causes behind actions. Bad idea to live in a black and white world, where you elitist enough to conclude those who disagree with you are without morals. Very black and white. Instead of justice, you get rules, more rules and devolution into puritanical hypocrisy. Setting intelligent pragmatic laws within a live and let live framework, doesn't seem that offensive to me. Perhaps one day you'll live in your dream world, where tolerance and empathy are dirty words, and unbridled capitalism means businesses can get away with anything they want. Somehow I don't think it'll be the 'moral' utopia you think it will. What else.. "Rugged individualism, like capitalism, is used as a perjorative by collectivists. It's easy to massage the words into whatever form an attacker wishes effectively utilising the enemies strengths against them" Trotting out plot lines from Ayn Rand doesn't wash in real life. Most people admire rugged individualism. The best of them are live and let life people by there very nature. Its the small minded who are stuck judging and corralling people into there little boxes.

That's what they say... and along with it, I could say that I can reach a super-state of ultra-subtle micro-clear luminescent light which is the most secret essence of the mind of the Buddhas, pristine awareness of the primordial consciousness. It doesn't take too much to learn how to speak of nothing in this way. Those who are clear about themselves, they know that they cannot recollect a single experience outside of the combinations of the 5 senses: even the most subtle and sublime experience of a state of clear light in a dream state... it's still a matter of vision, the sense of sight becomes prevalent. Yes, this is an advanced outcome of the training in concentration... but it's just a very subtle experience of the illusion of the Self. When people sit and say to themselves (and to others in public forums) that they rest in pure awareness or "feeling their presence", what they're really doing is resting in the tactile sensations of their bodies (again, one of the 5 senses). Since the Buddha was quite clear about himself, he understood that because of this precise thing, there's no such a thing as a Self. There is none who perceive: there are just sensations and memory. Buddhism wasn't about investigating reality to find out where's the self... it was about understanding that there's no self to reach detachment and avoid suffering. That's all. Meditation was 1/8 of the entire Path. They may call it even Waka-Taka and smile from the verge of the Universe while saying it... it's just a philosophical concept of something that, according to a mere theory, should exist to fit a precise world-view...

That happened to me. I had changed my regular routine to a meditation of just feeling my presence as a field in and around my body. I spent about two hours a day performing that style of meditation. After three days of performing that style of meditation, while I was sleeping in bed at night, I could hear someone snoring. It was me! When I looked down I could see my mind dreaming, I could see the dream scenes and they were small and far away. The vantage point I was in seemed to be a wide open empty space and I felt like I was a little stationary point of view. I did not loose awareness and just remained, listening to my body snoring, watching the ltttle dreams come and go in cycles. In the morning, when the body woke up, it was like a big explosion in slow motion as waking consciousness arrived and the world of forms appeared once more. At first I thought I would be very tired since I had been aware without any "sleep" but I was fine. I guess my body and mind were getting the rest that they needed. In all, I experienced 24 hour awareness for 1 1/2 weeks, without any detrimental effects. After a while I decided that I liked being not aware during sleep more than experiencing this vast empty space and quit the "presence" meditation as a regular routine. I didn't think I was getting anywhere or progressing.

Practitioners of dream and sleep yoga do it. I've done it.

I sincerely doubt that someone could do this. When the senses are disengaged, memory kicks in and build a sensate experience... out of that peculiar experience, it comes a peculiar Self. When the experience of the dream is gone, this Self is gone. In deep sleep, there's nothing at all and none experiencing it. There's no such a thing as a 6th sense.

Actually, I typically agree with most all of your viewpoints borne of experience and plus them, lol. So, I personally have nothing against you or your current practice. In fact, HU has been used as a seed syllable in numerous other traditions (lending credence). So, I am not saying that a practice employing this mantra couldn't be an effective means. Just that ultimately, means =/= end. And perhaps your dream was emphasizing this initially small, yet potentially eventually huge distinction. My interpretation was actually thus impersonal, not personal. Not unlike your "Odin interpretation" of Jesus. You personally cringed at his assessment, yet that's simply the "message" that you received. So, who are you to judge? Likewise, I don't care who had this dream, that was simply my interpretation of it. Which I don't claim to be right or wrong either, btw.. Just my .02 opinion! And if I had a beef with your points, believe me, I would have rebutted them a lonngg time ago, lol! I didn't and still don't have a beef with your points, though! Well, thanks for sharing?!

You believe what you see, yet you do not know that what you believe decides what you shall see. Accepting fakeness of the chair simply puts you into a vulnerable position, a difficult road. With these difficulties come a great reward. The ability to change perception/believes in an instant, for better or worse. You sit on a fake chair, you make one backflip when it breaks, or perhaps he remains in the seated position as the chair crumbles underneath his but. Because you expect the unexpected, are more aware when you let go of ego. You are more vulnerable when you have no reality to stand upon. It is like the description of how a sage perceives things. The person with the ego fals down when the chair breaks and gets angry at the chair, as he is falling down he still is not letting go of the chair, he infacts try to grab it even stronger. I'm still new with this letting go of ego thing. The practice came from lucid dreaming. You have to constantly see fakeness during waking hours so that you can see it during dreaming hours aswell. During a dream you run away from monsters all your life, when you turn lucid, yiu realize that the monster is fake and it becomes fake. You give it coffee and discuss his intentions over a cup of coffee. If you disagree with this fact, you have not yet had a lucid dream. In reality, our perceptions are often fake and limiting. Every single moment of your life has fakeness in it. I've not discovered how it effects your life to see fakeness atleast 20 times a day. I need more experiences to see wether or not accepting fakeness is useful or not. I can not say for sure. I do know that it feels scary at first, that it requires courage. But the rewards have been confidence 100% of the time. It feels great, and it turns your life upside down. You do crazy things that makes your life beter. Your fakeness detector improves,l. Yeah, thats how I call it ^^

This is beautiful, Fiveelementtao. What you have described reminds me of these quotes from Shakyamuni buddha: "All conditioned phenomena are impermanent; subject to decay and disintegration. Work out your own salvations with diligence. This is the last teaching of the Tathagata [buddha.]" Which was said to be given on the day of his "death." And this one from the Diamond sutra: "All phenomena are like A dream, an illusion, a bubble and a shadow Like a dew drop and a flash of lightning Thus you should view them." You should investigate the nature of this dream further.

Oh, that sounds good. The thing is, when I have to focus on study for example my mind goes chaotic. Everything I read is associated with something else distracting me of my work. During meditation I don't have thoughts at all! Its like empty space up there. I just feel, don't think! The more breath cycles I do the quiter my mind gets. Untill a point where I no longer think words or thoughts but I think in flashing images, then a dream wake initiated lucid dream pops up.

Welcome Kar3n! I hope you enjoy your new role here. A brief piece of unsolicited advice - don't take anything personally or seriously. It's all only a dream and we're a bunch of couch quarterbacks who like to hear ourselves type! I predict that you will be a voice of reason and compassion on the Mods team (not that the rest aren't!) Warm wishes and good luck, Steve

Dream Police are next, with theme music by Cheap Trick.

One time during a lucid dream I decided to do a chakra/energy meditation. It was probably the most intense energetic experience I've had. It was more amplified than in the physical for sure!

Have you ever attempted to achieve lucidity in your dreams? Recently I am working with a Tibetan Lama and this topic is very important in his tradition. I wonder how this interaction could have unfolded if you were fully awake in your dream. It is something I hope to be able to explore some day. Thanks again for sharing this dream vision. Craig

This reminder from Guru Padma is meant for you to contemplate because your views are clearly a fixation thru asserting the realness of disturbing emotions which is exactly that which cause endless samsaric wanderings. My point is that ego that gives rise to disturbing emotions is unreal, a story we make up for whatever partialness of attitudes we cling to, but appears like real to those who adopt your line of reasoning and logic. Recognising that all is mind, and that mind is empty yet cognizant is the path and the fruit. There is no linearity to this approach. All the teachings and practices contained within the great vehicle is to drive this point home until all doubts about this dissolve. In the Vajrayana schools the masters who give public teachings dont even pay heed to ego. In Tibet there is no direct translation for 'ego' - what the Tibetans have which is closest to the meaning is Dakdzin, which literally means 'clinging to a self'. This, it is said, gives rise to samsaric existence, or existence marred by duality. To end samsaric existence, practice the Dharma in such a way whereby this clinging is gradually weakened until such time it no longer has any feeding ground, and then it will shrivel and vanish like it never existed before. Those who insist on the realness of things like infinite layers of ever-deepening subconsciousness with the ego bubbling away hidden in the recesses of that are simply arguing for the arising of endless frustration because there will never be an end should one persist on taking the route of uncovering these layers as a means to freedom. Its like dreaming that you are searching for treasure within a dream. "Just as the ocean has waves, and the sun has rays, so the mind’s own radiance is its thoughts and emotions. The ocean has waves, yet the ocean is not particularly disturbed by them. The waves are the very nature of the ocean. Waves will rise, but where do they go? Back into the ocean. And where do the waves come from? The ocean. In the same manner, thoughts and emotions are the radiance and expression of the very nature of the mind. They rise from the mind, but where do they dissolve? Back into the mind. Whatever rises, do not see it as a particular problem. If you do not impulsively react, if you are only patient, it will once again settle into its essential nature. When you have this understanding, then rising thoughts only enhance your practice. But when you do not understand what they intrinsically are—the radiance of the nature of your mind—then your thoughts become the seed of confusion. So have a spacious, open, and compassionate attitude toward your thoughts and emotions, because in fact your thoughts are your family, the family of your mind. Before these arisings of thoughts and emotions, as Dudjom Rinpoche used to say: “Be like an old wise man, watching children at play.” ~ Sogyal Rinpoche 'Thoughts & Emotions '

Yes, I know what you are talking about. I have had those kinds of dreams as well. Seems like our subconscious (dreams) and our consciousness are both in control at the same time for a short period of time (between the dreams). I actually had a vivid dreams last night. Hehehe. A nice dream, a bunch of small animals all playing very well together - none eating each other. And yes, what you spoke to I think is what was behind the butterfly dream.

I wake up in the middle of mine but I don't actually wake up if you see what I mean. That's weird and not always entirely pleasant. Like last night I dreamt I visited this kind of farmhouse where the family who lived there had huge numbers of pregnant animals. Cats, dogs, fish, reptiles, you name it. Anyway, I was politely sitting there (babysitting) getting bombarded by kittens thinking 'man this is awful' and then I realised I was dreaming and I sort of went 'phew' realising it wasn't real but I was still in the dream. It just made it less annoying. Then I switched to another one and I found myself in a store trying on some very expensive orange silk-lined trousers. But I didn't like the hat that went with them and they were far too expensive, so I woke up, but didn't wake up. My take is that this is happening because I have been mucking around with my sense of subjectivity/objectivity through practices. I don't think it says what's 'real' although it might point to the idea that I decide what's real as soon as I decide what's not. But that's just an idea. As was the butterfly dream.

Welcome to TTB. I know a member named steve practices dream yoga and there are aspects of it in the system i practice, though i am not experienced in it. http://www.thedaobums.com/forum/55-steve/

That's an excellent point,...always refer to the first Absolute Bodhichitta,..."treat everything you perceive as a dream" Of course, while in that dream, "It is dangerous to be right in matters on which the established authorities are wrong." - Voltaire V

I heard John Chang had some sort of dream about his teacher warning him to be more hidden after he shared some demonstrations in front of a news crew. In general it seems smart to listen to your teacher. Even more so if you are being taught things easily misunderstood by modern culture. Pst, hey everyone! There's a chest of gold in bluefire's backyard!!!!

Hello Drakpa Donyi, and welcome. Your membership is approved and we're happy you found your way to us. We look forward to accompanying you on some of the way that you still have to go. Please take the time to read the two posts pinned at the top of this Welcome page and take a look at the forum terms and rules. This covers all you need to know when getting started. For the first week you will be restricted to ten posts per day but after that you can post as much as you like. Also, until you’ve posted fifteen times in the forums, you’ll be a “Junior Bum” with somewhat restricted access and will be allowed only two private messages per day. Good luck in your pursuits and best wishes to you, Marblehead and the TDB team Hi Drakpa, I have no knowledge of Dream Yoga but I'm think you might find some who have. You are welcome to jump right in ongoing discussions, revive an older thread, start a new thread of your own, or start a discussion in the "Newcomer Corner" sub-forms to expand on your introduction or ask general questions to help you get started. May you enjoy your time here. Marblehead

Perhaps even a combination of both! Recent discussions with friends about the health benefits of fasting led to the idea of deliberately depriving yourself of sleep. It is obvious that men is not evolved to continue eating troughout the day, but rather hours long hunting followed by big meals. The body is well capable of surviving without food, even though food is essential to our lifes. Fasting activates inner archetypes, simply because it is of the Tao. This is how nature made us, so it is the way of nature. Slowly science finds more and more health benefits for fasting. With healthy nutrisious foods as part of the diet ofcourse. The same can be found for exposing yourself to heat and cold. And recently I found a society deliberately depriving oneself of sleep. Was it native american indians? I forgot, but the idea certainly sounds promising. I can imagine how stressful times during the life of ancients would release the archetype of natural spiritual growth and insights, partially triggered by a lack of sleep. As I searched on this subject I noticed how depriving sleep is similar to fasting in that you do not always hunger for sleep just as fasting is not a constant sensation of hunger alone. Though it might not be an easy task, there are certainly some unique experiences involved in depriving oneself of sleep. On the other hand, the ancients served nature and nature did not always provide with food and rest. I found that with fasting, your body becomes more efficient and healthy. You require less and less food to function normally. I wonder how our body and mind goes about resting when deprived of sleep for a day or two? Not to promote insomnia, but simply out of curiosity. I have found that after three days of not sleeping due to extreme temperature change the sleep that followed had a duration of more then 14 hours. It was certainly an extreme spiritual experience for me. Alot of the dreams at the end of this long sleep were very vivid, deep, insightful, long and lucid. Isn't that the goal of a dream yoghi? And isn't alot of meditation based on experiencing such an enlightening experience that expands yours consciousness? Thats what I thought atleast. I found that thinking deep is the way to go in life. Consider how deep ones thoughts are when they are occuring within a dream. Perhaps longer vivid dreams mean that the thoughts go deeper aswell in that already deep place. So that we may fully acces that storehouse of wisdom within all of us. The truth of our own nature.