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I think the Tibetan perspective is interesting, although I think some of the language used in this video is disempowering--- there is definitely a "commoner vs. yogi/lama" dynamic going on there. Some one asked a lama why Westerners who have near death experiences don't experience the same experiences Tibetans report. The lama said the experiences only arise for practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism. Looking at NDEs through different cultures, they do happen differently to different people. Some might take this to mean that they are subjective experiences, but this need not be the only explanation. From a Buddhist POV, worlds arise according to our karmic habits. Which makes me wonder--- are people experiencing/creating the world that they expect? I mean, if you spend the day watching zombie movies, you are more likely to have a dream about zombies. Perhaps it is the same thing with death--- if we conditions ourselves throughout life to expect one thing or another, perhaps that is what manifests at the moment of death.

That is correct,...for you, there is not yet any proof that what I've been pointing to is proof of anything. Quite bluntly, this is because you are not aware of a single truth. Once you become aware of a single truth, this conversation will shift exponentially. A truth is that which points to a non-condition, non-concept, to something, so to say, that never changes,...for example, that There is No Present in Time. Within my posts here is a consistant striving to use pointers. Hui Neng,...he became enlightened after hearing one sentence (of words)from a Master,..."Depending upon no-thing, you must find your own mind." That is a pointer to uncover barriers of seeing. My wish is to commune on levels beyond what many consider ineffible. There is nothing that is ineffible,...but to embrace that, means letting go of alot of beliefs. "Your own Mind" is not the thinking mind, the so-called mind of ego,...it is the Mind of Unborn Awareness. You do not lack this Unborn Awareness,...you do not lack anything,...it's merely obscured by an attachment to the senses and skandhas. There is no Present in time. The dream is fully within time,...there is no present in the dream. "Nothing real can be threatened. Nothing unreal exists." And yet, as Osho said "We condemn the real and we enforce the unreal, because the unreal is going to be helpful in an unreal society and the unreal is going to be convenient…A child is born in a society, and a society is already there with its fixed rules, regulations, behaviors and moralities which the child has to learn. When he/she will grow he/she will become false. Then children will be born to him/her, and he/she will help make them false, and this goes on and on." V

Well 9th, you are actually right. Movement certainly doesn't stop with perceived death. That's why there is no such thing as life or death. It's just a process. Karl, you are not even making sense anymore. At which point does the dead body stop moving. Energy never stops. Dead things do change, thus things that do not change cannot be called dead. Energy is a function of work/movement, thus if there's no change, there's no energy. This is beyond your idea of life/death. Stop trying to find an example for the absolute reality in the dream. Are you saying that you are the body or the mind? The body is just accumulation of data. You see a banana on the table - if you say this is me, you are crazy, but if you eat the banana, 2 hours later it adds to the body. Now do you think it's you? Weren't you there before? What about the mind? You go to school, you study, you get a diploma. Now you say I am x the biologist with a perfect diploma. Are you the words in the text book or the diploma, weren't you there before the diploma? So, do you believe that you are what you accumulate? Then who accumulates it? Say you are the body, but the body is a dissipative system without a single absolute particle. Where is 'you' in that process? If you cut one finger off , will you be lost? If you cut off all your limbs, will you be lost? Plenty of people without limbs - same personality. So are you the brain then? People tend to insist that they are the brain even though there is no trace of self there either. Why would one prefer to believe that they are the brain is beyond me. Just another organ in the body, just a piece of meat that gets too much attention. The rest is a bourgeois low-level zen joke: That things somehow only temporary exist, so don't get attached to them and that's the greatest liberation... If you are true to that tradition just kill yourself for complete liberation. Why wait?

Have already discussed this. D.O. is a pointer to the realization of Shunyata and Maha as a natural state. The realization of Shunyata and Maha is completely non-conceptual. It is not a view, it is freedom from all views. Even those at "I AM" makes the statement. Even those at substantial non-duality makes the same statement. What you have to realize is that it is the realization of the twofold emptiness that liberates you from inherent view. When you are liberated from inherent view, you are free from the constructs/concepts of 'is' and 'is not' - and therefore being free from such constructs, you are left with the suchness of experience. But what is essential is the realization of the twofold emptiness. Because you can have non-dual experience and realization... you can have non-conceptual experiences, and talk about 'suchness'. Whether before realization, or after 'I AM', or after substantial non-duality... people all talk about Suchness and deem it as highest. But they are unable to overcome inherent views, and they had ample non-conceptual experiences but non-conceptual experiences does not liberate - only realization does. Anyway when you realize anatta one striking thing (like all previous realizations) is how free of constructs and conceptualization and direct it is - I mean what more direct can be 'in seeing just seen, in hearing just heard' etc. Anatta, emptiness, etc are non-conceptual realizations. There is no such thing as an anatta view or emptiness view. Maybe to the unenlightened, they understand it intellectually and hold them to be a view. When you realize it, they are not views at all... it is just a non-conceptual realization that causes you to drop all views, without leaving even a 'anatta/shunyata view'. Just like you wake up from a dream of chasing monsters means 'full stop'. Freedom. Awakeness. You don't create another dream of 'no chasing monsters'. All concepts - body, i am my body, i am my mind, i am ... All come down to a basic misperception of 'is' and 'is not' due to not comprehend the emptiness of self and objects. It is not the gross concepts 'I am so and so...' that is the problem - it is the underlying view and belief that 'I Am' is a truth. Buddha calls it 'the conceit of I Am'. Therefore it is a view, and from which stems other grosser conceptualizations and thoughts like 'I am such and such'... but when you cease conceptualizations, you realize and experience a bare naked fact of being and awareness to be the luminous essence of mind, you still do not overcome that view of 'I Am' - in fact that bare naked non-dual fact of presence and awareness is then quickly reified as the pure I AMness even without that thought of I AM, in other words we still cling to it as an independent and unchanging essence. People generally call this the 'I AM' prior to 'I am this and that' - the I AM prior to concepts. And those who realize this tend to treat this as ultimate, so they spend all their effort trying to abide as that non-conceptual, non-dual Self. There is realization and experience of the non-conceptual luminous essence, but not the empty nature. By not realizing anatta, i.e. in seeing just the seen, in hearing just the heard, we conceive of some independent, separate, unchanging self that is behind and perceiving things... some kind of independent agent. This view can only be dissolved by realization, no other ways. Those who have realization of luminosity will say this - even at I AM level, or substantial non-dual level, much less anatta insight. But they have not overcome inherent view so aren't liberated. You aren't being clear about what causes liberation... it is not as simple as being non-conceptual. If not, any people who realized I AM or even the ordinary mindfulness therapy teacher would have attained anuttarasamyaksambodhi. I can remember always talking about the non-conceptual truth of presence, ungraspable by any concepts or thoughts, 'suchness', when I first attained self-realization over a year ago. ...are not the problem. You aren't being honest if you say you don't make use concepts and thoughts in daily lives. At the same time it is possible not to confuse concepts and thoughts as simply useful and convenient tools, with actual experience. i.e. abstract concepts like 'nature', 'weather', 'wind' are useful for communication but there is no inherent nature-ness, weather-ness, wind-ness, car-ness, self-ness, etc. "Conceptual thoughts are in nature great awareness" - Milarepa Precisely. And you can only get entangled in concepts when you posit a truth or reality 'is' or 'is not' to those labels, concepts, conventions. Otherwise it is like useful conventions - weather, wind, river, but there is nothing to grasp - literally... then you can use concepts but not be 'used' by them. No, there is no eternal now. There is no now. There is no ground. There is literally nothing that abides. My blog name is a bad hippie nick created by a friend in 2004 in sgforums (actually he just called it that because he thought he sounded cool but he didn't know it has 'spiritual connotations'), which I then overtook his account along with the Buddhist forum shortly after. I kept that name elsewhere because people recognized that name. The Diamond Sutra says, “The past mind cannot be grasped; the present mind cannot be grasped; the future mind cannot be grasped.” Even without concepts, people still cling to an inherent Now-ness. Why? Attachments lie deeper than gross conceptualizations. Even though Now is just a belief, a thought, people generally don't recognize that. Just like 'Self', 'Awareness', etc. They see that Now, Self, Awareness are inherently existing and independent, whether we have thoughts or not. So they kept referring back to this sense of Now-ness, Self-ness, Aware-ness. They can get very grounded and very non-conceptual, but they are unable to overcome the view of inherency. Staying thoughtless, non-conceptual, and abiding in samadhi all day isn't going to help either. Some people can abide in non-dual, non-conceptual samadhi all day and still not realize and overcome the view of inherency. What is required for liberation is realization into the twofold emptiness. Bad bad hearer. Which is just a method. Satipatthana is a gradual method, albeit one that does lead to true experience and insight. JK talks about nondual experience but there is no clarity about realization of anatta in what he said there - though some of the stuff he said is quite good.

Surely,...understanding time is not required for anything,...anymore than understanding anything that is part of the illusion. I never said understanding time is important,...I said, There is no Present in Time,...which is more irrefutable than saying the Earth revolves the Sun. To critique your post further,...there is nothing to discover, only to uncover,...which I feel you could agree with. There is nothing to learn,...but to unlearn,...although a minimum of re-training is necessary to bridge the massive amounts of conditioning that cerebral-centric entities are weighed down by. Although "notions" are better than no notions, the realization of 'When' you are is not a concept. Shakyamuni himself did not breakthrough to Who he was, until he realized the Middle Way,...that is, When he is was. When you hear Middle Way, picture standing on the fulcrum of a see-saw. You are not who you think you are,...thinking can NEVER uncover who you are. The Heart-Mind can uncover it,...but first you need to uncover the Heart-Mind. No one, that I've ever heard of, who has a fully open Heart-Mind, is unaware of When they are,...again,...not the you that you think you are, but the you that you are. Just as "hope" can keep you from ever uncovering anything meaningful,....the attention or looking as to 'When' you are, can by itself, invite more and more of the Permanent Self into this dream, so that this dream of 3D reality is seen more and more lucidly. Recognition of Heart-Mind does indeed depend on realizing 'When' you are,...they are inseparatable. You are obviously having difficulty understanding that. The you that you think you are does want such a thing as accepting a non-condition (that is, When), for to see 'When' will kill the idea of the 'i Think.' The Heart-Mind isn't like inventing a god,...which humanity usually contrives to be like themselves, or some attributes to admire, from a cerebral-centric point of view. The Heart-Mind is about the Unconditional,...the conditions of the 'i Think' cannot enter. Wasn't it Voltaire that said, if cockroaches had a god, he'd be a big and powerful cockroach. You can fight my posts all you wish,...but that is not going to enable you to "put the 'i think' before the I Am, and let the you that you think you are into the Heart-Mind. The 'i Think' belongs to time, and can only witness time,...like the senses can only see movement. Understanding the "nature of thought and [sensory] experience" is as helpful as understanding time,...from an ego point of view. Realizing 'When" you are however, is as a quantum leap onto a wholly different dimension. From reading your posts, I'm quite confident you'll be noticing the When of you, pretty soon,...in this lifetime. V

Hey guys, its been a while since I have posted, so seeing this topic has really sparked a flame within. Old Green- I too have a very similar view on this topic. Since you are about to leave college I am guessing that you and I are close in age (I am 23). I started to become interested in buddhism/daoism when I was about 19; before that I considered myself to be "Christian", so one can only imagine the transformation of thought once I started learning of these taboo eastern philosophies. Anyways, around this time I started to get extremely impassioned for nature. I grew up spending a lot of time outdoors with my dad hiking, fishing, camping, etc., but just sort of drifted away from nature for a while in my teens. Once I moved out on my own, I started to camp and hike again pretty frequently, and just fell in love with the great outdoors once again. Somewhere during this period, I read the book "Into the Wild" by Jon Krakauer, and then later saw the movie with Emile Hirsche and Vince Vaughn. If you are not familiar with the story, it is about a guy named Christopher McCandless who is a free-spirited hippy type who invests much of his interests in the writings of the great Romantics, such as Thoreau, Emerson, Jack London, Lord Byron and the like. He graduates from a prestigious university and decides to sell all his things and abandon society. He travels around the U.s. with nothing but a few basic items in search for a greater purpose for being. His dream was to go to Alaska and live off of the land, and finally reaches his goal. He lives there in the wilderness for a time, but the great Wild turns out to be a far greater beast than he could tame, and he meets his demise by eating poisonous berries and starving to death.... Anyways, after this story had fully permeated my soul and mind, I wanted just what he wanted. This lust for freedom and my growing passion for nature and the Eastern arts completely possessed my thoughts for a time. I wanted to load up my pack and hike off into the woods to live and meditate. This dream lasted for a while and then just went kind of dormant as I was once again sucked into the perpetual motion of society. Well about a year later I lost a job, and found myself with a lot of free time. I thought I was gaining more knowledge about mediation, and thought that I was starting to crack some real spiritual truths. A friend contacted me and asked if I wanted to go camping at one of my old stomping grounds deep in the mountains. It was a place about 15 miles from the nearest town, and was the site of many youth camping trips with my father. I eagerly accepted and started packing up all the gear I had. When we arrived and set up camp, I had a strange feeling of just being "home", like this was the place I was supposed to be. We all camped for a couple of nights and then my friends decided they were ready to go. I thought about this for a while, and then with all the passion and intent that had been welling up inside of me, I told them to leave me.--- Now keep in mind that I had no money, a scarce amount of food and was in blackbear country.--- They argued with me for a time, but I persisted, and they turned and walked out of the vast summer forest. I had finally done what I had been intending to do for the past few years. Ok Ill make this story a bit shorter... So I stayed in the woods for three weeks. I rationed what food I had, and fished in the nearby stream when I ran out. I meditated, prayed, hiked, encountered numerous bears and foxes, climbed waterfalls... I was completely free for a time. But closer to the end of my stay, I started to come to the realization that I could not run from society forever and that no matter where I was I would never find fulfillment until I had come face to face with the false being within. No external circumstance could satisfy my hunger for a greater purpose. I realized that everything worthwhile was already inside of me. All the knowledge in the world and all the great mountains could never bring the wisdom and guidance that I desperately needed in my life at the time. So all that being said, I want to clarify that what I did was extremely irresponsible and very dangerous. I was young and immature and so were my decisions. I know that you are not speaking of this kind of excluded existence. I was just trying to put my silly experience into perspective. Chapter 47 of the Tao Te Ching kind of sums this up for me..."Without opening your door, you can know the whole world. Without looking out your window, you can understand the way of the Tao. The more knowledge you seek, the less you will understand. The master understands without leaving, sees clearly without looking, accomplishes much without doing anything." So loooooooong story short, I don't think it really matters where you are. I believe secluded locations can be very beneficial if your spirit is mature enough to embark on that kind of process. I still to this day travel to the mountains quite frequently to hike and meditate, but nature and the Universe taught me a valuable lesson, so I keep myself in check, no matter how inviting those hills look. So I hoped this helps to give a small perspective with my personal experience. Love and light, Matt

What are you talking about? Gautama's teachings are about surrendering the illusion and waking up from the dream. It's not about "earning and learning" your way out of suffering as many Buddhists seem to believe. Gautama himself dismissed the illusion as meaningless many times and did not harbor relative compassion. This world that you describe doesn't exist. This discussion doesn't exist. We are not even here. So studying the illusion may increase your odds of survival, but that doesn't make the you that you think you are, real. From your post it seems that you don't understand the difference between relative and absolute truth. You are talking about relative truths which are not actually truths. Relative honesty is dishonesty. The only truths are absolute and are synonymous with reality. 1. Yes, Milarepa is pretty cool. This quote points to the root of suffering. 2. There is no death, but there is no life either. Forget about oneness. Saraha said, “He who thinks of mind in terms of one or many casts away the light and enters delusion.” Although this term "non-duality" has a variety of meanings and uses, this commentary will address three (3). Duality is a perspective that the universe is essentially an arrangement of binary oppositions, such as the electromagnetic spectrum which contains all phenomena. By that definition, non-duality would either be 1. that which was beyond the duality of the electromagnetic spectrum, or 2. a fantasy belief that the condition of duality can somehow merge with an Unconditional Oneness. Yes, one could intellectualize that duality is a the diversification out of Oneness, and in a Taoist sense it is. However, this can be confusing, because many people often miss the fact that Oneness does not exist without Duality. There is no Center without a Boundary, no Here without a There, no Yin/Yang without a One. If we are to transcend the struggles of separateness, of useless happiness and suffering, and Birth the Human Beingness beyond sentience, there must be a letting go of what is, and is not us. We are Light; however, very few understand what that is pointing to. It doesn't happen to you. You are not the you that you think you are, feel you are, analyze you are. Whatever changes is not true. That which lives and dies is not true. Your suffering is caused by your desire for things to be other than they are. You are not here, you are not your body or mind, you are not life, you are not energy - all stuffs that change constantly. Just because it hurts when the body loses a limb, doesn't mean that that is you. Wake up before the body dies, that's what you are here for.

liberation requires a quantum shift of perception. Because even if you have temporary experiences where the sense of self temporarily dissolves, as long as you still believe that the "self" is real, you will forever be back in the loop of seeing a self and trying to chase it away. Like being in a dream of monsters and trying hard to get rid of that monster in the dream not realizing it was all just a fictitious thought. In the same way, no-self does not point to an experience, does not point to temporary unitive experiences where the sense of self is temporarily forgotten (this is quite common). Rather it points to a fact about reality, and it is not a belief but it can be directly realized and verified: the fact of no self. Hearing, seeing, thinking, everything is not and cannot be denied... It is only that notion, sense of agent that must be investigated and seen through. I cannot stress how important that quantum shift of perception is... Otherwise no matter how you practice or attempt to let go of self, you can never realize that no self is already the natural state and already always so. That is, in seeing always just scenery without seer. In hearing always just sound no hearer... Etc. The view that posits "is" or "is not" with regards to a self, which means the view of inherent existence, is the cause behind all grasping. In order to treat our afflictions, we must treat it from the root - the conceit of "I am" as Buddha calls it. That conceit, that view must be thoroughly abandoned not by efforting but by realization. I have not long ago written something about the view: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/07/view.html

An absolute truth is that there are no absolute things in time, and thus no things at all in time. Things exist only outside of time, within time "form is emptiness and emptiness is form". How am I reacting to the dream? Reaction means change, change means lie. If something is reacting, it's not real. If someone is reacting, they are not real.

What absolute truths have you discovered? Can you describe or explain any of them without resorting to quotes and stories and ideas from other people? If the dream is not true, why do you react to it?

What is truth? Although there are many relative truths, such as mathematical truth, pragmatic truth, personal truth, truth by consensus, etc. Relative truths are obscurative truths which obscure absolute truth. Of course, those who have not realized an absolute truth, will generally deny that absolute truth exists, which is silly even from a conceptual point of view, because if there was no absolute truth, then the absolute truth would be absolutely nothing, and thus an absolute truth. Generally speaking an absolute truth is something that doesn't change and something that cannot be further simplified. Why do you care? Why did Neo want out of the Matrix? How can you speak it? "Truth, like gold, is to be obtained not by its growth, but by washing away from it all that is not gold." - Leo Tolstoy Simply put, truth is inaccessible for the 6 senses, but not inexpressible. We start by pointing out what is not true. Does it even matter? Well, it's certainly not a crime to believe in illusions and it's certainly not a crime to be limited. If you want truth go for it, if you like the dream, keep dreaming.

For there to be a dream, there has to be a dreamer. Who is the dreamer? Everything that you write is a story with the assumption that there is a dreamer, someone to control the dream, a self which acts, creates, and actually has control. Who is infinite and without limits? Who is it that has woken up? These are serious questions. Please contemplate them and see what happens.

So it's all just a dream then... And then I would need to now "dream" in a more, pleasurable "enlightened" virtuous way since I now see myself as infinite and without limits? Like I'm now awoken from the nightmare now dreaming that I have a perfect healthy body healed of it's sicknesses, perfect harmonious relationships... a constant state of joy etc, my goal is now to realize and now BE this...?

I'd like to expand on Rigdzin Trinley's earlier comments. I would like to express my hope that we all look at ourselves a little more closely and nakedly and be a little more realistic and grounded. Of course we all have our own words, that's what we're typing. They may be an illusion but that is irrelevant, they are how we communicate, they impact our lives and emotions. The chance of any of us experiencing rainbow body is so far fetched as to be a joke. It's fine to work towards it but there are so many steps along the way that can enrich our lives and the lives of others it is sad to see folks ignore the beauty of the path. Of course we all experience localized mind and awareness. It's fine to speak and dream of the absolute and those of us fortunate enough even get glimpses of it from time to time. But to deny our relative, day to day life is to live in a fantasy - that is not what spirituality is about. These practices are absolutely marvelous and transformative when we practice them and apply them in concrete and practical ways in our daily lives; but when we get wrapped up in our intellectual projections and ego games like I see happening here, they're worse than doing nothing. This is precisely why they were kept secret for so long. Sorry for the rant but we need to get off of our ego trips and be real people and relate to one another with respect and compassion. Otherwise this is all a complete waste of time and energy. And don't think I consider myself better than anyone else - I'm guilty of all of the above but I am aware and working on it. I hope you will join me. Peace

That's exactly why in some traditions the importance of dream practice is emphasised, as the process of falling asleep is seen to be similar to dying.

CT, I am in no way trying to be rude to people. But I am trying to churn up some emotions and dialogue. Your are right. The Internet sucks because you can't see the other guy's face...you can't read his body language. You couldn't see me, but I was laughing at some of the things I was typing on the site where you took offense with me. If you look back maybe two posts on that site, someone was ripping on me. I was not a happy camper at that point. One thing I learned growing up in a tough neigborhood, is don't let anyone get over on you. Nowadays, I use my mind and words. Some of it is passive/aggressive, some of is just plain straight forward. Depends on who my audience is. It will sting either way. Your not avoiding me and my topic was a challenge for me, so I took a moment and expressed my discontent. The outcome: you engaged. It is what it is. I'm not surprised that you came back with a response. Most people want to defend themselves if they have any kind of self respect. My second thought was that you might continue to track my posts. I was hoping that you would see all sides of me. Steve, in my private practice as an Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, dream work can be part of the client's treatment plan. I also use Bradshaw's Championing the Inner Child technique for healing trauma patients...those that have sexual/emotional/physical abuse histories. And CT, I am everyday people. I am a blue collar kind of guy. I grew up blue collar. Went to school on the G.I. for both undergrad and postgrad. I go to the outhouse like everyone else. I just have no fear of death because I don't have anything to regret or close up. I just get up and live. When it is my time...its my time. Besides, my ashes are going to be dropped right under an old tree so that I will live forever. Peace Peace

Death. On the following night, I wandered to the northern land and found myself under a gray sky in misty-hazy cool-moist air. I strive to those lowlands where the weak currents, flashing in broad mirrors, stream toward the sea, where all haste of flowing becomes more and more dampened, and where all power and all striving unites with the immeasurable extent of the sea. The trees become sparse, wide swamp meadows accompany the still, murky water, the horizon is unending and lonely, draped by gray clouds. Slowly, with restrained breath, and with the great and anxious expectation of one gliding downward wildly on the foam and pouring himself into endlessness, I follow my brother, the sea. It flows softly and almost imperceptibly, and yet we continually approach the supreme embrace, entering the womb of the source, the boundless expansion and immeasurable depths. Lower yellow hills rise there. A broad dead lake widens at their feet. We wander along the hills quietly and they open up to a dusky, unspeakably remote horizon, where the sky and the sea are fused into infinity. Someone is standing there, on the last dune. He is wearing a black wrinkled coat; he stands motionless and looks into the distance. I go up to him-he is gaunt and with a deeply serious look in his eyes. I say to him: "Let me stand beside you for a while, dark one. I recognized you from afar. There is only one who stands this way, so solitary and at the last corner of the world." He answered: "Stranger, you may well stand by me, if it is not too cold for you. As you can see, I am cold and my heart has never beaten." "I know, you are ice and the end; you are the cold silence of the stones; and you are the highest snow on the mountains and the most extreme frost of outer space. I must feel this and that's why I stand near you." "What leads you here to me, you living matter? The living are never guests here. Well, they all flow past here sadly in dense crowds, all those above in the land of the clear day who have taken their departure, never to return again. But the living never come here. What do you seek here?" "My strange and unexpected path led me here as I happily followed the way of the living stream. And thus I found you. I gather this is your place, your rightful place?" "Yes, here it leads into the undifferentiable, where none is equal or unequal, but all are one with one another. Do you see what approaches there?" "I see something like a darkness of clouds, swimming toward us on the tide." "Look more closely; what do you recognize?" "I see densely pressed multitudes of men, old men, women, and children. Between them I see horses, oxen and smaller animals, a cloud of insects swarms around the multitude, a forest swims near, innumerable faded flowers, an utterly dead summer. They are already near; how stiff and cool they all look, their feet do not move, no noise sounds from their closed ranks. They are clasping themselves rigidly with their hands and arms; they are gazing beyond and pay us no heed -they are all flowing past in an enormous stream. Dark one, this vision is awful." "You wanted to stay by me, so get hold of yourself. Look!" I see: "The first rows have reached the point where the surf and the stream flow together violently. And it looks as if a wave of air were confronting the stream of the dead together with the surging sea, whirling them up high, scattering them in black scraps, and dissolving them in murky clouds of mist. Wave after wave approaches, and ever new droves dissolve into black air. Dark one, tell me, is this the end?" "Look!" The dark sea breaks heavily-a reddish glow spreads out in it-it is like blood -a sea of blood foams at my feet-the depths of the sea glow-how strange I feel-am I suspended by my feet? Is it the sea or is it the sky? Blood and fire mix themselves together in a ball-red light erupts from its smoky shroud-a new sun escapes from the bloody sea, and rolls gleamingly toward the uttermost depths-it disappears under my feet. I look around me, I am all alone. Night has fallen. What did Ammonius say? Night is the time of silence. I looked around me and I saw that the solitude expanded into the immeasurable, and pierced me with horrible coldness. The sun still glowed in me, but I could feel myself stepping into the great shadow. I follow the stream that makes its way into the depths, slowly and unperturbed, into the depths of what is to come. And thus I went out in that night (it was the second night of the year 1914), and anxious expectation filled me. I went out to embrace the future. The path was wide and what was to come was awful. It was the enormous dying, a sea of blood. From it the new sun arose, awful and a reversal of that which we call day. We have seized the darkness and its sun will shine above us, bloody and burning like a great downfall. When I comprehended my darkness, a truly magnificent night came over me and my dream plunged me into the depths of the millennia, and from it my phoenix ascended. * But what happened to my day? Torches were kindled, bloody anger and disputes erupted. As darkness seized the world, the terrible war arose and the darkness destroyed the light of the world, since it was incomprehensible to the darkness and good for nothing anymore. And so we had to taste Hell. I saw which vices the virtues of this time changed into, how your mildness became hard, your goodness became brutality; your love became hate, and your understanding became madness. Why did you want to comprehend the darkness! But you had to or else it would have seized you. Happy the man who anticipates this grasp. Did you ever think of the evil in you? Oh, you spoke of it, you mentioned it, and you confessed it smilingly; as a generally human vice, or a recurring misunderstanding. But did you know what evil is, and that it stands precisely right behind your virtues, that it is also your virtues themselves, as their inevitable substance?! You locked Satan in the abyss for a millennium, and when the millennium had passed, you laughed at him, since he had become a children's fairy tale. But if the dreadful great one raises his head, the world winces. The most extreme coldness draws near. With horror you see that you are defenseless, and that the army of your vices falls powerless to its knees. With the power of daimons, you seize the evil, and your virtues cross over to him. You are completely alone in this struggle, since your Gods have become deaf. You do not know which devils are greater, your vices, or your virtues. But of one thing you are certain, that virtues and vices are brothers. We need the coldness of death to see clearly. Life wants to live and to die, to begin and to end. You are not forced to live eternally; but you can also die, since there is a will in you for both. Life and death must strike a balance in your existence. Today's men need a large slice of death, since too much incorrectness lives in them, and too much correctness died in them. What stays in balance is correct, what disturbs balance is incorrect. But if balance has been attained, then that which preserves it is incorrect and that which disturbs it is correct. Balance is at once life and death. For the completion of life a balance with death is fitting. If I accept death, then my tree greens, since dying increases life. If I plunge into the death encompassing the world, then my buds break open. How much our life needs death! Joy at the smallest things comes to you only when you have accepted death. But if you look out greedily for all that you could still live, then nothing is great enough for your pleasure, and the smallest things that continue to surround you are no longer a joy. Therefore I behold death, since it teaches me how to live. If you accept death, it is altogether like a frosty night and an anxious misgiving, but a frosty night in a vineyard full of sweet grapes. You will soon take pleasure in your wealth. Death ripens. One needs death to be able to harvest the fruit. Without death, life would be meaningless, since the long-lasting rises again and denies its own meaning. To be, and to enjoy your being, you need death, and limitation enables you to fulfill your being. When I see the lamentation and nonsense of the earth and consequently enter death with a covered head, then everything I see will indeed turn to ice. But in the shadow world the other rises, the red sun. It rises secretly and unexpectedly, and my world revolves like a satanic apparition. I suspect blood and murder. Blood and murder alone are still exalted, and have their own peculiar beauty; one can assume the beauty of bloody acts of violence. But it is the unacceptable, the awfully repulsive, that which I have forever rejected that rises in me. For if the wretchedness and poverty of this life ends, another life begins in what is opposed to me. This is opposed to such an extent that I cannot conceive it. For it is opposed not according to the laws of reason, but thoroughly and according to its own nature. Yes, it is not only opposed, but repulsive, invisibly and cruelly repulsive, something that takes my breath away, that drains the power from my muscles, that confuses my senses, stings me poisonously from behind in the heel, and always strikes just where I did not suspect I possessed a vulnerable spot. It does not confront me like a strong enemy, manly and dangerously, but I perish on a dung heap, while peaceful chickens cackle around me, amazedly and mindlessly laying their eggs. A dog passes, lifts his leg over me, then trots off calmly. I curse the hour of my birth seven times, and if I do not choose to kill myself on the spot, I prepare to experience the hour of my second birth. The ancients said: Inter faeces et urinas nascimur. For three nights I was assaulted by the horrors of birth. On the third night, junglelike laughter pealed forth, for which nothing is too simple. Then life began to stir again.

If the aliens were guiding evolution and so forth, Im sure there would be some sort of "prime directive" type situation as well. For those unfamiliar, its a term from Star Trek that refers to the principle of not interfering with a civilization and giving them interstellar technology until they have developed it themselves - and also there is stuff about revealing their identities and so on - basically they have to keep everything secret. Its also worth noting that in star trek, earth has become a utopia - there is no money, nobody works except on things they want to work on, there is no war, no violence, etc. and so forth. Looking at it from a natural perspective, it would be the situation where the parent is absolutely needed when the child is an infant, and there would be a great amount of direct effort there. However when the child becomes a teenager and on, they are expected to strike out on their own and become an adult. If mommy and daddy are always doing everything for you, you wont gain any experience, skill, knowledge, understanding and so on for yourself. Of course, aliens guiding evolution is a different situation but some of the principles would be the same. Looking at it from a theoretical perspective, there may be a need for intelligent life of a certain coherent type. If a species is able to come together in a certain unified way, it may have a certain value in regards to a universal community of life. If a species is NOT able to unify in such a way, its not just as if they would serve no purpose - this actually may have a detrimental effect and therefore would be heavily guarded against. Depending on the nature of these needs in regards to the universal community of life, there may be a certain time table involved which would require certain kinds of intervention at certain key points in a species development. These are a few theoretical ideas from a neutral perspective. From (what may be called) a gnostic influenced perspective, you could have an idea where certain species may produce certain materials in certain conditions, and therefore we would be guided into those conditions in order to produce these materials which would then be harvested by the aliens - and in general this would involve cultivation of mass suffering, ignorance and so forth - basically the generation and release of intense psychic energy as food or fuel source. Its worth noting that this principle is the basis of the prehistoric idea of ritual sacrifice (of animals, people, etc.). It seems modern people may think of ancient ritual sacrifice as some weird symbolic act, but no - these ancient people were performing an energetic act... ritual sacrifice is an energy working. Its not just symbolic. And of course there may be a contentious universal community of life where different principles are opposed to another, and therefore multiple kinds of intervention situations may be happening at the same time. This seems likely from our current human perspective - but it must be kept in mind that currently, humanity is very very VERY far from being in a "perfect" place to explore the universe, let alone being a utopia in itself and having a unified global community. So its worth keeping in mind the influence of the human mind on all these proceedings. There are also countless different species of aliens of a sort which we cannot ever possibly dream of, as we have absolutely no frame of reference for the physical characteristics of alternate dimensions where the laws of physics are completely different.

It could be argued that Shakyamuni was not self-lit,...considering the instruction from Sujata, which was needed for Siddhartha to unlearn the meditation techniques received by his Hindu teachers. According to Tilopa, a key to awakening in a single lifetime, is non-meditation. Basically, Short Path meditation is an activity that "tags" thoughts as thoughts so to gain access into thoughtlessness, which only occurs through effortlessness,...kind of like the "don't think of a pink elephant." To me, nothing is ineffible. Those who speak of things as being ineffible, are simply ignorant,...first, because they haven't uncovered the threshold, and two, apparently don't wish for others to uncover it. Maitreya, the Coming Buddha, born within a Red Hat family, is said to realize enlightenment (uncover her Light) in a single day. I generally agree with much of what you wrote. And no, I do not read Tibetan. However, I did translate Tilopa's Mahamudra about 30 years ago. The Ultimate Teaching - a translation by Vicente Marco 1.The Ultimate Teaching cannot be taught through the senses, however, by metamorphesizing a winged inner sense, metasensory Gnowing can reveal, this mystery to the Heart of our Essence. 2.Space is not understood, but merely perceived as That, which is filled and unfilled with form; the Ultimate Teaching is not dependent on object-ivity, the Whole can only be realized through Wholeness. 3.can a hole be defined by what's around it? that's not describing the hole; likewise, Wholeness is unrecognized outside itself, concepts and forms obscured through illusion. 4.to have a center there must be an edge, as the ambits dissolve, the center disperses with it; the here becomes meaningless without a there, then the truth of Mind is no longer unfamiliar. 5.what shape and colour is a banana? absorbing all spectral light and reflecting yellow doesn't make it yellow, while under a microscope, neither has it a shape, until we think one is there; the Mind's essence is beyond shape and form. 6.the predispositions of a thousand eons is incapable of concealing the Still HeartLight of Life; similiarly, the self-imposed cycle of suffering has no power to cloak the HeartLight of Mind's Essence. 7.there is no void nor vaccum in space, it is either defined or undefined; although the true essence of Mind is Light, that StillCauselessLight cannot be seen, only gnown. 8.the essence of Mind resembles space, in that it embraces all that is perceived; Rest, and Be a Silent Witness, for through Love's Stillness, all worlds dissolve. 9.look at the body/form through a microscope, the Mind which you do not see, transcends that Duality; Rest Effortlessly upon the hidden jewel that's you, Letting Go of object-iveness uncovers the Ultimate Teaching. 10.the HeartLight of the Ultimate Teaching cannot be revealed through New Age discourses or preceptual Scriptures, neither from the Mantravada, Paramitas or Tripitaka; the HeartLight of Mind is shrouded by concepts and whimsy's. 11.attachment to morals or immorals cloaks HeartLight's resplendence, yet by holding ones tongue still, the intellect quiets its fears and hopes; then the Causeless fulcrum is embraced, and the efforts of Duality's struggling seesaw vanish. 12.free from the bondage of beliefs, the fiction of discourse and Scripture become apparent; the Ultimate Teaching unbounds the bonds of self-repression, useless suffering and useless pleasure fad away, and the DiamondLight of the Ultimate Teaching glistens authentically. 13.ancestral fear driven zealots deride the Ultimate Teaching, theirs is a life not experienced directly, always viewed from a predisposed past and anticipatory future; Real Compassion and Teachers do not avoid, when either touches your Heart, ecstasy will unfurl. 14.Joy is realized only by Letting Go of the desire for Joy; desires arise from ordinary knowledge, they want for things which are not; In Reality, everything already is. 15.transcending the effects of Duality, all struggle ceases, the Still Nowness of Life reveals the HeartLight of Mind; embraced by zero, the origin of ecstasy where fear filled pasts and hope laden futures never existed. 16.Mind and Truth are synonymous to seek truth is to believe there is a lie; the intent of a path is to get, not to Let Go. 17.Enslaved to illusion and its transient conditions, Duality, is like a projection on a theaters screen; belief in the dream entanges the believer in a space-time construct, yet nature's melody does not exist outside of things. 18.renouncing all social and moral rules, liking nothing, hating nothing, and repiring in amoral innocense; aware of Effortlessness is the Sly Man's way to uncovering who we are; walking without footprints, the Ultimate Teaching is realized. 19.we divide life into self and not self, the here and there, subject and object; and then try to intregrate illusion with reality; Enlightenment is the awareness that there is no Duality. 20.Light is not seen, only the conditions which keep it obscure are seen; the Light at the Heart of Essence has no beginning nor end; zero dimension, razer of logic, is the Holder of the Whole, through Original Mind, the illusion of motion is evident. 21.Truth is not a path, but a Stillness, a passivity not realized through concepts; concepts are derived and inferred from perception, perception validates only illusion, not Truth. 22.there is nothing to discover, but only to uncover, positive and negative do not exist outside intellect; all situations are neutral and impersonal, in CauselessNowness the Ultimate Teaching becomes clear. 23.Perception sees itself as the center of the universe blindly seeking a complete unification with separation; identification with the universe is an attachment to the dream. 24.Divested cogitation can gaze upon the Original Thought, divesting useless suffering invites Peace, divesting useless happiness welcomes Love; fear clings to past as hope clings to future. 25.The nature of a river meanders, reposes, curves and winds, yet because Nowness is believed to be useless, predisposition demands that the current follow you, instead of you flow-ing with it, through that behavior, fulfillment remains elusive. 26.Triggering transformational experience is not difficult; Connected Breathing, when activated, can jump-start an atrophied thymus, Fixed Gazes, with auric vision, can open time to be seen as one, holding the tongue still, can bring Stillnes to thought. 27.Through unfeigned surrender, HeartLight itself, resplendently springs its metanoia; clear rapture coalesces from tranquility and insight, a continuum of awakenings dawn real Compassion, thus Birthing Human Beingness; Ascension is merely the Letting Go of the descension. 28.Then gaining long-life and eternal youth, waxing like the moon, Radiant and clear, with the strength of a lion, You will quickly gain mundane power and suprem enlightenment. May this Ultimate Teaching, Remain in the hearts of fortunate beings. V

Hehe, I just wanted to say that in my dreams I actually only have girls check me out when I become awesome and great fun to hang out with. If I'm talking with Conan the barbarian or jesus in my dream, the girls are not checking me out. It is pretty similar to real life actually sometimes. It just feels more energetic and intense in a dream. More important and rich and vivid... More colourful. Its weird how dreams become so true to the soul sometimes.

The atman view is different because it assumes an eternal entity that passes from body to body until it reaches enlightenment as if there is a soul residing in the body that is aware. Or an independent mind, true self, etc. It's really the other way around that the appearance of body and the appearance of life and death is experienced by the mind. When you fall asleep and dream of a new body and a new environment, it is incorrect to believe that an entity has traveled from the awaking state to the dream state. Rather it is just projections of the mind's contents dependently originating on the conditions it supposes. It's just been your mind experiencing itself all along. But aside from Buddhism I like to just investigate what exactly it means for one to be aware. As in, what is the nature of our aliveness, the sense of being. We usually take granted the idea of the duality of there being a subject and an external object that it experiences. Or that somehow one is the causes or conditions for the other, just as popular science says the brain is where our consciousness rises. Or that our awareness is dependently originated. What can we directly verify and what is mere speculation? Just strip it down to the bare minimum of what we can know directly from experience without suggestions from science or religion. Note to Xabir/TCO/Vaj, let's please not start an argument among us. Just post our views and move along.

Reincarnating on the same planet is like going to bed and having the same dream you had the previous night, on purpose. It's possible, but it hardly ever happens, and when it does happen, you can't be quite sure if it's really the same or just very similar. For most intents and purpose I assume when beings are dead, they reincarnate, but never here in this realm. I suppose there could be some exceptions. Out of all the dreams I've had, I believe I've had an experience of returning to the previous dream only a few times. Most of the dreams are completely unique. So I think reincarnation is like that too. As for whether the nature feels impersonal and brutal or not, that depends hugely on your beliefs about nature. If you believe nature is one giant machine, yes, you'll get caught in its gears and it will grind you up just as you believe.

I'll reply to myself and do what I consider to be an acceptable job answering my own questions. 1. Whatever one finds manifested is intentional. If that's the case, why can't ordinary people say readily go through walls? That's a logical question. On the face of it this situation suggests that certain things are outside the scope of intent. But what is really going on here? As it turns out, our experiences are structured by our beliefs. Beliefs are stable intent formations. So when we tacitly and implicitly believe that all objects must have a property of spacial integrity we find that our experience conforms to this because of the principle number 1. Beliefs are said to be stable in the sense that once you believe something, you don't need to make a conscious effort to continue believing that same thing. They are formations because beliefs have a certain character or shape to them, albeit an abstract one. Another belief we might have is a belief about intent itself. If we believe our intentionality only extends to our "physical" body and no further, and that objects outside our body have natures independent of our intent, again, thanks to principle 1, our experience will conform to that belief. Of course we don't just have two beliefs. We have many beliefs. Often these beliefs support each other and need each other to be true. So for example of what might happen, imagine someone begins questioning the belief in object integrity and experiences sliding through an object previously or customarily considered solid. At this point all kinds of questions and alarm will appear, such as, "Is this real? Am I dreaming? Where is the real world? Is my mother safe? My father? Am I dead?" Why so many questions? Well, because one has a worldview. A worldview is a collection of beliefs that describe the world as we know it. If one of these beliefs is found to be false or flexible, it throws all the other beliefs into question. So if this one is not quite true, what else is not quite true? This is very scary and most people go right back to ordinary life after something like this happens. It is because beliefs resonate with each other, they stick together and support each other that this happens. People who learn not to be scared by strange stuff are said to have developed tolerance of the inconceivability of phenomena. It simply means magic is no longer scary. It's not scary because the world as an ordinary person might know it is gone and it's OK for it to be gone. Instead a different world manifests. This different world reflects the new worldview. If someone performs a magical action over and over regularly it stops being perceived as magical and becomes ordinary. What is considered magical is relative and unstable. In some realms going through walls is ordinary. In other realms it is magical because it's rare and poorly understood. In others it is impossible. So in a sense all actions are magical. Even walking and breathing are magical in some sense, but we don't see it that way because it's so ordinary and common. For a being who has dwelt in a formless realm for one aeon, having a physical body would be very strange and scary, and also very magical. For us, even a taste of the formless realm is scary and magical. Besides beliefs there is also a force of habit to contend with. So for example, suppose I believe I can exercise, but I don't. Why is that? That's because avoiding exercise is habitual. Once exercise becomes a habit, it's hard to stop. So habits have force of their own regardless of beliefs. This leads us to the second principle: 2. Phenomena tend to continue. This describes the tendency of patterns to be stable, even in the absence of supporting beliefs. So for example, one time I had a lucid dream. In the dream I knew beyond doubt all my surroundings were nothing more than my mind's creations. So I tried to go through the wall and failed. I just bounced off the wall. So even though I believed it was definitely possible, I still bounced off. Why is that? Well, habit was a large part of it. I was so used to bouncing off objects that it was hard to do otherwise. Also, I had to think what would it be like to go through the wall. I mean, I couldn't even imagine it. Is it like moving through tooth paste? Or is it like moving through space? Or like through water? Will I feel the wall inside my body? There are many options. I decided moving through the wall should feel like moving through space while not feeling anything special inside my body. Then I focused and meditated for a few seconds and successfully went through the wall just as I wanted. Similarly in many lucid dreams I've been able to fly, but not in all. Why not? Again, when I am lucid not only do I know I can fly, but I even know I've done it many times, so it's not even all that unusual. Still, in some dreams I fail to fly anyway. Why? Sticking to the ground is a habit. Beliefs tend to continue because of the habit principle, but they are still intentional because no habit is outside intent. To get a feeling for how beliefs can be both intentional and outside one's conscious awareness imagine you wear a pair of shades because it's a sunny day. You get indoors and put the shades on top of your head. As your attention gets absorbed in this and that activity indoors you forget about the shades that are on top of your head. The shades are on your head intentionally but at the same time, you lose awareness of them because your attention become absorbed in something else. Similarly, people get absorbed in day to day minutia and forget many of the deep overarching beliefs that form the basis of their worldview. But still, all beliefs are intentional and they can all be changed, even if it's not easy to do so. So, someone who has challenged one's beliefs many times and thus softened them up is likely to encounter beings who demonstrate unusual powers of intent (siddhis). As one's beliefs continue to soften further, many siddhis become accessible to oneself directly. Someone who has very conservative, limited and restricted beliefs which are held very strongly, which haven't been softened in any way, is very unlikely to even meet or to even read about a person who can exercise the powers of intent. This explanation probably leaves some questions unanswered, but that's OK. It's already a long post.

I selectively decide too. Maybe our heart draws us to things we can actually do something about. I don't look for it either - and I think there's really something to the karmic sense of all of it. If we approach it from the mindset that we are all A Manifester of our own conditions, then this would follow suit. When you said 'if a healer cannot heal, should they just give up?' I think I'm discovering that I wasn't very effective at the beginning of this, but that my nature kept me trying. Maybe because of an overabundance of pain I experienced in my younger years. I find that one little success breeds a little confidence that it actually may be working - although one never really knows if it actually is working or not. And the more confidence we have in ourself as a healer, maybe the more effective we become because doubt does not get in the way. I don't know. The kundalini coming out of the ground was a real affirmation for both Joe and I. After that happened (in the healing of Lorena described above) I knew there was truly something to the opening and closing of the fabric of time and dedicating a time and space to the event. The intent, and putting the intent into action through what I'm calling a child's mind. The nagual don Juan Mateus (Castaneda) would tell him 'sometimes you get to see the outcome, sometimes you don't' (referring to healing others). And who really knows what just our aura does for those around us, if we are in a balanced and joyful frame of mind? We really can't know that either, and yet I think we all agree that there are those who make you feel like you're being held to your mother's bosom just by their peaceful presence. The 'space' we speak of here, as Steve would say. Allowing others the space to heal. And perhaps the greatest form of healing, in the sense that Dawei speaks of, is the acceptance of the outcome, particularly if that outcome is death. To have the fortune of helping someone cross over into death is something not easily forgotten - and what a beautiful gift it is to both the person dying and the person sitting with them. To have helped my father cross over is one of the greatest gifts I could have received, and I know that it eased him greatly, particularly given the tough nature of our relationship over the years. The forgiveness was mutual, and all the stuff from all the years was just not important any more. And Joe was present when Mo, our friend with cancer all throughout his body, took his last breath. Joe was seated at Mo's head and talked Mo through the last breath - not to be afraid of it. That was an amazing set of circumstances having to do with timing, etc., which I won't go into here. But a true shamanic moment that Joe will never forget, and the greatest gift that he could have given his friend. Perhaps both are healed during moments like that. I just follow the desires of my heart in this stuff, that's all - and sort of make it up as I go along. I think the biggest point to be made in this whole thread is that with practice (and not being afraid to do it) we seem to get better at it. There's also nothing fixed in cement with any of this - just follow the dictates of the heart. Try to figure out what the body is trying to say with the malady - life seems to communicate in puns and riddles and turns of phrases. These can all be figured into the triangulation. And I've found that the answers to the riddle are most often in the forefront of my mind when I first wake up in the morning, if I've been thinking about why the illness is manifesting. It's happened almost every time, even if I can't remember the dream. Somehow it aligns during the night and presents the answer in the morning. Everything can be used in the triangulation. To see where a person's heart is is sometimes as simple as seeing what they have collected around them, what they treasure. I have another situation going right now where my cousin's heart is breaking because there have been two new grandparents that have 'moved into her turf' with the grandkids (her son recently remarried and his new wife's parents are over there all the time bringing the kids presents). These kids are the crown jewels of my cousins heart, and yet she feels like she's losing these kids to these new people. She is manifesting 'invasion' all over the place, duplicating the invasion of the new grandparents - from infection in the body, to actually being burglarized in her home. She sort of wants to die right now, she is so upset that she's being left out in the cold (in her mind). she is demonstrating a 'wasting syndrome' right now, mysteriously losing her appetite and losing much weight. Needless to say, I'm doing what I can there, but the jury is out on that one. Can't do much if the desire to live isn't there any more.

phenomena neither physical, nor non-physical. Like a dream, not really a dream. Experienced my own body dissolving into rainbow light, it was a bit scary at first and I could feel the death process setting on, then Ganesh sat on my chest, held me down and turned into Rinpoche, repeated a mantra then disappeared and my physical constituents coagulated (sort of speak) again into physically felt peace and calm. It was quite astounding. Many, many other things have happened as well to show me the validity of the Jalus. This was just while laying in bed I had many other visions while in between waking and dreaming. Stuff like this happened many times for the first few years after my first transmission from Norbu in order to show me various direct insights about the tradition of Dzogchen that is both unique and beautiful. During a Jnana Dakini transmission, a female Buddha of the Dzogchen tradition: Making sense of Tantra: Berzin Archives. "Because the audience for Buddha's teachings consisted of a variety of beings, not only humans, some of them safeguarded material for later, more conducive times. For example, the half-human half-serpent nagas preserved The Prajnaparamita Sutras in their subterranean kingdom beneath a lake until the Indian master Nagarjuna came to retrieve them. Jnana Dakini, a supranormal female adept, kept The Vajrabhairava Tantra in Oddiyana until the Indian master Lalitavajra journeyed there on the advice of a pure vision of Manjushri. Moreover, both Indian and Tibetan masters hid scriptures for safekeeping in physical locations or implanted them as potentials in special disciples' minds. Later generations of masters uncovered them as treasure-texts (terma, gter-ma). Asanga, for example, buried Maitreya's Furthest Everlasting Continuum, and the Indian master Maitripa unearthed it many centuries later. Padmasambhava concealed innumerable tantra texts in Tibet, which subsequent Nyingma masters discovered in the recesses of temples or in their own minds." Anyway, I saw her in the room, my third eye filled with blissful light, she was just made of light and smiling, such bliss and wonder. It was very nice. Norbu said after the transmission that it's possible to see Jhana Dakini, as a confirmation of this experience. Sure, but it's more nuanced than that. Have you read Norbu's Kunjed Gyalpo? You only have an idea, but you don't know directly. Your lack of humility reveals that lineage can offer far more than you.