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Thank you for your post RT. I was disinclined to add my ramblings but you mentioned me by name and so I am drawn in Just to be clear again my thoughts have no status at all because I am not qualified to speak on these things and are more or less off the top of my head anyway. Was it Chadrakirti who introduced the 'two truths' solution? If so I think he introduced a red herring. Or even a rabbit with horns - and I believe Tsongkhapa took the whole enterprise further. There are not and cannot be 'two truths' about reality - what we are dealing with is simply the implications of perceptual confidence. I see a pillar, and thus I go and kick the pillar and so refute anyone who says there is no pillar - thus there must be a sense in which the pillar is not empty of being a pillar. But of course I then apply analysis to what actually is this pillar - and it all falls apart. Same thing happens in physics, things 'disappear' when we look to closely. It's ok of course to say, in an everyday sense 'oh look at that pillar' and not be called a liar and a fool - and mankind has come so far as to wish to establish security in this kind of perception - we want this to be fundamentally reliable - but annoyingly it doesn't stand analysis. But it is actually a kind of dream or magic show. There isn't anything other than the continuum of the mind stream. All forms appearing to rise and cease from it - even when nothing whatsoever does arise or cease. But that does not stop the strength of the mental formulations and habitual perceptions - just as rain and wind form a landscape - forming a stable projected continuum or sensorium. The pillar is empty of self. That's it. The thing is with the arya bodhisattvas and buddhas - they are not disappearing into some never-never land of beyond. They are realising in their mind streams the continuity of the process which includes the pillar. Why not? Why would the pillar disappear unless all the causes and conditions which allowed the pillar have collapsed. Emptiness is not nothing and not not nothing either. The ultimate or absolutely real is not an abstract. So I feel happy with the pillar and hope the pillar is happy with me. You are right - the pitfall of Shentong is converting buddha-nature into an eternal god/soul/entity - this is of course because both views are just intellectual views and not realised awakenings. I don't think you can have a formal view which does not have pitfalls. Otherwise Buddhism would just be a philosophy. Since Jeff and others are around, and I know they love quotes - let me quote the great and peerless Milarepa so that I too can tip toe round the error of authority: Do not see consciousness: see primordial wisdom. Do not see sentient beings: see buddhas. Do not see dharmas: see dharmata. By the power of compassion from that, The powers, fearlessnesses, dharanis and so forth That constitute the qualities of a buddha Will arise like a wish-fulfilling jewel.

Book extracts continued…. 7. Women go to Holy Mother Temple and kneel in prayer at her altar. They tell her their innermost thoughts and wishes for a good loving husband and a son. She grants the requests of all sincere suppliants and in return they bring her tokens of gratitude, pieces of embroidered cloth, not silk, for they are poor, simple folk. 8. The young, smiling deity, seated in the temple, lived two thousand years ago. She was a girl in the harem of China’s great unifier, the awesome emperor Shih-huang-ti, but escaped following him with all his other wives into his tomb. She sought to live a life beyond our mortality, took refuge in a cave on the mountains, feeding on pine cones and drinking morning dew. She let her hair grow until it clothed her body. She became lightsome as air and rose to heaven. This true saint found truth and the meaning of enduring life. She brings comfort to the suffering people: even in our times. 9. Fairy Ho, Ho Tai's daughter, came from Canton in South China. When she was born she had six hairs1, on her head; at fourteen, in a dream, she heard a god telling her to eat "cloud mother stone" to become immortal. So she ate mica2 powder and took the vow of virginity. Every day from morning to evening she winged her way over the hills and dales and returned home with fruit of the mountains for her mother. Later she stopped eating the food of mortals. When invited to court by the T'ang Empress Wu she disappeared. She was last seen rising to heaven in broad daylight3. (From Hsien-chi, Record of the Genii, Ch. 1) 1. Six in Chinese gnostic numerology indicates the female sex. 2. Tun-mu shih 3. A folklore deification of a meteorological appearance of the Princess of Azure Clouds, Pi-hsia yuan-chun. 10. Cyprus trees, dark and black in flower. To honour Kuan-yin I offer incense. Kuan-yin, do make My lover never desert me. (A song of Tan-ka boat people of the Canton area) The Divine Mother, Sheng Mu, is the "Good Lady who sends sons", Sung-tzu Niang-niang. She wears a phoenix headdress and a mantle embroidered with eight trigrams; in the circle on the left is k'an (pond), with a full bar between two broken bars, a stylization of the ideograph for water, shui. The right trigram is ch'ien of male principle. The inscription on the collar band says the robe was presented in 1928 (the year wu-shen ). The great screen behind the goddess is decorated in high relief with six or more matronly figures attending Jade Emperor Yu Ti, the supreme Taoist deity, seated on the throne and encircled with clouds between two dragons. The tabernacle in front of the goddess is inscribed with the character hao of Bright Heaven. Sheng Mu, the Divine Mother (see above) with head-dress and flowers, berries and tinkly bells, riding the mare ma rebus for ma mother. The suppliant has slipped a noose over the boy she wants. The Good Lady who sends sons to her votaries (see above), with phoenix head-dress, pair of bead pendants, and cloud-pattern collar. She holds the vase of fertility, symbol of her engendering powers. Also known as the Azure-cloud Primordial Lady, Pi-hsia Yuan-chun, identified with Kuan-yin Pusa, the Buddhist goddess of mercy. The ideograph of Pi-hsia indicate iridescent colours of nacre or mother-of-pearl.

...or how to 'live' a better dream. Keep meditating.

... A flickering lamp. A phantom. And a dream. ...

The Practice of Dzogchen in the Zhang Zhung Tradition of Tibet - John Reynolds The Tibetan Yogas of Dream and Sleep - Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoche The Path to Tranquility: Daily Meditations by the Dalai Lama - His Holiness the Dalai Lama ... and several transcripts from Bön Dzogchen retreats

Our perceptions are not reality. Kind of like a dream to me.

Not just in dreams but in your own reality, there is no origin to say. You can not explain how you were born into this world at this specific time and place with a specific parents. Much like dreams. However, I do remember that in some dreams I would see myself sleeping, as in what I was actually doing in my real life. Sometimes, I see myself sleeping in my own room or in some place else. Once woke up, I became aware of the "situation." That is.....I was in a specific dream context with a specific contextual element with its own karmic force. I would become fully aware of this force. I would just play along and to allow things to unfold.

Karl, I didn't even have hedonism in mind (that's low hanging fruit anyway)-- I mean the seeking "respectable" job, the "respectable" status, or in the US what they call the "American Dream." Seeking those things makes life an awful lot more complicated than necessary. You become less worried about things that in the end don't really matter one way or the other. Daoism and Epicureanism (the real Greco-Roman philosophy, not the caracature of it) have this much in common-- the more simple your life, the more enjoyable it becomes-- I can certainly say this has been my own experience. Once upon a time my ex-wife and I lived a very affluent lifestyle and we were good little consumers. The funny thing was, the more money you make, the more you spend-- so we moved to a bigger place, got a new car, had a more expensive overhead. We put money back too of course-- we didn't fritter it all away, but it only made our lives more hectic (we were living in Dallas at the time). In the end, we moved back home and lived a more modest life. It was a "sacrifice" well worth making because we had more time to enjoy the beauty that nature had to offer, and I had much more time to enjoy reading and writing (please do note the emphasis there...) There are things far more important than what any society has to sell. In fact it is an inner peace that can't be bought or sold. It's not about "sour grapes" nor about "giving up happiness" or enjoyment, but asking: "Will owning a big house crammed with things really make me happy?" Or is this more clutter to keep up with? This is, after all, one of the main points that the Dao De Jing makes repeatedly.

Beautiful... is something that has always existed and always will.... Love is beautiful.... what man cannot comprehend, what is unknown... often invokes fear, yet in reality when one surrenders, yet embraces the beauty of the mystery, it is so awesomely magnificent and splendid, words cannot begin to describe... the Tao that can be named is not the true Tao. How simple and convenient to believe consciousness is a product of biology; the religion of science. There is no light without the darkness and the emptiness of the illusion of capacity is what ensues wholeness... oh beautiful infinity, oh so much taken for granted. Has anyone ever read The Magic in Your Mind by US Andersen? http://www.amazon.com/Magic-Your-Mind-U-Andersen/dp/0879800895/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1301346083&sr=8-2 A wonderful gem way ahead of its time, I strongly recommend it to all, it is of unlimited value. And 'Way' Taoist . If consciousness predates matter, then undoubtedly we beings of light... of energy, must all be connected, must all be One - soul splinters of the great cosmic consciousness, universal being, the Tao, subjectively experiencing itself and spiritually evolving an infinite times over to reach divine unity, Oneness... we often have moments of strange familiarity, 'deja-vu' as if we've undoubtedly experienced a moment of eternity before... as if reliving a dream, yet awake - awake to the nature that this really is a dream, there is no such thing as death, we are the imagination of ourselves, ego-deluded induced separateness, but there is yet one dreamer dreaming many dreams... and we've all been here before, have had these lessons... and will continue to be taught, to teach, to love, to live as One, in every imaginable angle, shade of light, whisper of wind, forever, in peace, as long as we surrender to love.

I like to add some outlooks on lust from a gnostic forum. http://gnosticteachings.org/forum/index.php?showtopic=1400 Samael teaches that if the image of a beautiful woman (or man) were to reach the mind (impression), to imagine the woman growing old, wilting and dying, just as the beautiful flower wilts and dies. Our bodies are contructed from, and composed of, the matter of the four elements of the physical plane (Malkuth) and will return through the process of decay like any other physical being...this deserves reflection. One can take this a step further and reflect on the body itself both internally and externally. For instance, if the woman (or man) in your dream was to have all of the skin peeled off of her body, exposing all of the muscles, blood, etc. you may be less likely to identify with, and desire that image. Gotama Sakyamuni, Nagarjuna, Santideva and others within the Buddhist traditon give powerful antidotes for dealing with lust and transforming the images and impressions associated. These meditations are designed to reflect on the body as it is, within and without. Some of the teachers describe the body as a sewer filled with excrement, snot, urine, etc. Reflecting on the body this way in meditation can dispell some of the ignorance that lies at the feet of lust. Reflecting on the body in this way, when confronted with images and impressions of "attractive" bodies or bodies we desire is repulsive. Repulsive is defined as, "to drive away or repel." In this case one can "drive away" lust and identification by reflecting on the body as it truly is... ....an organic sewer made of the four elements that produces excrement, urine, and snot that will decay into mud.... Obviously, if we are identified with our own bodies then we will be identified with other's bodies. Additionally, if we are identified with the physical plane then we are subject to the associated ignorance and its consequences. (See writings on SOL and awakening the consciousness) If we are identified with images as realities rather than representations or reflections then we will suffer the consequences of our ignorance, the sleep of the consciousness. (See the Dream Yoga course) The impression that triggered the lust must be comprehended also. The relationship between external event (impression) and the internal state (reaction) is a must know. This reminds us of the wonderful teachings of dependent origination. (See Karma course) One must also comprehend Kant's "the exterior is a reflection of the interior," in relation to internal states and so-called "external" events. (See Revolution of Dialectic and others) One must comprehend sight, smell, sound, touch, and taste. Meditation on the 5 senses is necessary to transcend physical identification with images, forms, bodies, and is the ground work that leads to not identifying with internal images as well. "The clairvoyant falls into error when he or she takes the image for reality" - Rudolf Steiner The Buddha, in the Sutra on the Four Foundations of Mindfulness, goes through meditation on the body's repulsive parts, meditation on the four elements, meditation on the senses, as well as the Charnal Ground Contemplations associated with death and decay of the body. These teachings and meditations are essential...and beautiful...and absolutely practical and effective. I have found that egos associated with lust and identification with the body don't like it when the antidotes are applied...which is a good sign. They will resist, tell you stories, and generally make it feel uncomfortable to do so. Therefore it is important to expect and calculate the inevitable resistance. Lust has roots in ignorance and identification. The seemingly harmless manifestations of lust that you spoke of: QUOTE Should I instead begin meditating on the more seemingly harmless manifestations of lust, like perhaps looking at women or thinking about them? ...are feeding the egos of lust that are associated with the near falls and falls in the night. The reactions in the three brains caused by those impressions need to be photographed and then cancelled. We can't afford to allow them to linger and waste energy or perhaps strengthen existing egos. We obviously fornicate emotionally and mentally with those impressions. Additionally, the impression that triggered the lust must be comprehended. Therefore one must comprehend sight, smell, hearing, touch, and taste...as well as memory (untransformed impressions). Those impressions need to be transformed before you go to sleep. Do not allow the sun to set on your lust. Samael states in the Revolution of the Dialectic that, "One is devolving if the digestion of impressions does not exist." I suggest studying the book Revolution of the Dialectic, particularly the chapters on rest therapeutics, transformation of impressions, and the mental stomach. Samael's writings on Awakening the Consciousness and Subject Object Location (as in Perfect Matrimony, Lamasery, etc.) are also a necessity for the transformation of impressions, with respect to comprehending identification, fascination, and sleep the of the consciousness, as well as awakening and non-identification. The Buddha Sakyamuni terrifically walks us through these issues and antidotes in the Mahasatipatthana Sutra, or The Greater Discourse on the Foundations of Mindfulness. He is teaching non-identification, mindfulness. Santideva speaks simply and directly about this in A Guide to the Bodhisattva Way of Life. These resources and reflections have assisted me greatly...Perhaps they will be helpful for you.

a certain amount of dreams are processing the daily junk, but they're far from being just a balancing tool. they literally are your psychological state, or what we would consider a direct representation of it. different layers of the same reality. if we expand 'psychological state' to encompass all our feelings at an energetic level, where they are arising from, that's more accurate. and even then, it's more part of an ongoing purification process. for example have a relatively peaceful day and your dream time has more chance to start dealing with the backlog, the deeper conditioning that's hindering us. what happens when you penetrate really deep through these layers is where it gets interesting - lucidity and various levels of light/pure awareness experiences. this higher awareness can be carried into the waking state with increased direct perception and noticing the basic ground. more advanced people can even be aware of everything that happens between the moment they fall asleep and wake up in the morning. that's a whole different spin on how we generally think of sleeping - ie a more unconscious, seperate part of reality.

One way to experience the dream like quality of the so called waking state, is to view with softer eyes, which are wide open, but relaxed with emphasis on closeness as opposed to distance.

Its possible I guess, but personally I don't recall any dream where the essential sense of the central character (me) has changed to someone completely different. Have you had dreams like that?

You mean...you have no feelings lingering on from some bad life experiences you had some years ago?? You don't dream about events happened to you when you were younger? You don't see the world though some mental prejudice you have because of what happened to you some years ago? Hard to believe.... If you say so..... Even an apple or an orange isn't permanent either. Let them sit outside under the sun and they would decay into some organic matter. How can you call them real when they don't even last permanently.

Yes, if you remove the qualifier of 'generally' that is correct. Now, one step further. The abstract things are directly related to concrete things. If they are not, then the philosophical abstraction is a floating concept tied to nothing at all and therefore cannot be succesfully integrated which makes it invalid. Throw away and begin again. Going back to the garden shed. If the abstract conceptual design is not tied to real world concretes it can't be built. Luckily we have logic to help us eliminate most of the error. The danger is carrying an abstract that does not relate to existent concretes and takes on a life of its own. Living the dream isn't dreaming the living. One is practical real world, the other is tortuous mental gymnastics designed to keep the abstract from touching reality.

@Karl, Yes good point about the two phase war. Someone once described (I don't know who though) British foreign policy as - avoid doing anything but when forced, act entirely in our own interests. And actually I wish we had stuck to that. But of course politicians like to meddle in world affairs - and usually come unstuck e.g. Blair. I once read a fascinating book about German history from Bismark to Hitler ( I seem to have lost it so don't know the title) and I think we have an extraordinary misunderstanding about who the Germans are, how they think and why they do what they do. This is probably why we mishandled the end of both wars strategically. In particular the relationship between Germany and the countries to the East is something I doubt we will ever relate to properly. There's always a sense of tremendous intellectual power mixed with insecurity which we as English particularly don't share. Generally speaking English people despise philosophy unless it is a form of empirical pragmatism and also while others dream of perfection - we think, in our hear of hearts that England is already the new Jerusalem and there is nothing more to do than be what we are. Our feet are firmly grounded in self belief and confident of our boundaries. A faith in our own rightness which makes us perfidious Albion to the French. I think this is also why being an EU member instinctively seems like an act of betrayal of our own value. In much the same way as, while being for a time part of the Roman Empire it is not instilled in our blood in the same way as in most of the rest of Europe. I was proudly told by two Portuguese professors once how they had been civilised as part of the Roman Empire for over 700 years and had inherited one of the purest Latin based language forms - to which my reaction was well poor you - you can see why English is such a powerful and adaptable language then being as it is such a bastard tongue. While the tendency to wish to remain pure makes the Romance languages strangely stale and self-preserving. English just eats up other languages as it goes with it's ever widening lexis - what Melvyn Bragg called it's treasure hoard of words. This is also the great mistake of the EU in thinking top down. To have an ideal vision and an ideology which builds its cities in the mind first and then in reality later - only to realise that in the real world they do not work. Instead they should have let the thing develop organically in response to changing environments and with enough adaptability to meet the needs of all its members. Rather like an unplanned city.

Dreams are balancing your psychological state. I don't think reality is like a dream.If you have to put it like this, you are saying as if orange is like a banana.

All good and important points Apech. I refer to it as one war cut in two. It never really ended and many statesman realised the peace would be over in less than quarter of a century. It was also an unnecessary war not led by the people, but a group of idiots who's idea of foreign policy lacked any finesse. Churchill in particular couldn't wait to have a war, he loved war and lived for it. I don't think we will be granted Liberty. We must claim it and fight for it. It is far better to break a larger enemy into smaller groups if we wish to achieve success. The problem with the EU is that it is in a desperate fight for the survival of an idea. The idea is patently wrong, but there is now so much inertia and vested interest in maintaining it, that not one thing can be allowed to be seen to fail. One of those things is for Britain to remain loyal to the idea. This is not a good idea. Not for us, not for Europe and not for the rest of the world. You only need to see what has been done to Greece in the name of the EU dream to understand the kind of scorched Earth politics that underpin the people who are forcing it forward. Sometimes people can't see when the body has died and they keep spending greater and greater resources on trying to re-animate it. The EU is a corpse already, we don't need to make the population who live under its flag corpses in order to pronounce the time of death. Think of Britain leaving as a kind form of euthanasia. A wake up call for everyone. After that, we will have to fight our own battles on British soil, but, at least we won't be shackled to a far greater tragedy.

It may surprise you all to learn that I agree with these criticisms of the EU. The bloc uniformity and forced fitting into the German model and the unelected commissioners telling everyone what they must do - despite that fact they may have voted for something completely different. But I'm afraid to say you are all falling for a false hope - that is that Brexit will cure these ills. Leave the EU and the economic model won't change, the legislation won't change, the erosion of 'democracy' won't change, the influence of the UK in the world may change in that it will lessen (possibly). If the EU subsequently collapses or goes through critical transformation then we will not unaffected - we will just be powerless to influence. Brexit is just a dream of returning to the 1950's, of Agincourt, of the battle of Britain, of Tea Clippers rounding the Horn and watching flags fluttering on seven continents while sipping G and T in the club, cricket on the village green as the sun sets like a satsuma amidst the pink clouds, half a pound of mature cheddar wrapped in greaseproof paper from that nice Mr. Sainsbury round the corner and returning home with the clank of old pennies and half crowns in your pocket. It's gone. It's not coming back. Get real.

I would say people need to stop thinking they are losing something or making some sacrifice and see that they are gaining something. Obverse animals in the wild, they have mating seasons, once per year to procreate, and they are all of exceptional vigor, strength etc. There is no need for any special practices, this is perhaps the problem, do not put much thought into it, you set what you want and drop that which doesn't serve you, say I have not had alcohol in over 2 years. I do not meditate daily to control myself or do any special practice, I saw it was not benefiting me and cast it from my life in one moment. Is a stag practicing celibacy? Or just being natural? I would say you can connect with some women more so with this, some there will be no energy, others there will be a resonance of a kind, magnetic/ intuitive connection. I don't think we are suppose to connect with all people. I was in the city the other day walking past many people, one woman I went past though sparked my heart and a very pleasant feeling pulsed through my body. I kept walking. No attachment, gratitude for the brief encounter. Like a butterfly in spring. The building energy I at times when inhaling move upward and through my entire body, very simple little time or effort. I think the energy of it's own will start to do this. I have trust in the awareness of the body. You will have more profound experiences I think, and the other will seem like a shadow in comparison. People are stuck on this shadow not knowing any greater. Just another approach to things which can carry over into other. A lucid dream recently with this beautiful woman, a very pleasant "orgasmic" dance of a kind, maybe like the yin and yang rotating around each other. There was hardly any physical contact. It is just a change in approach. Enjoy and continue on. My experience so far anyhow.

You set the rules. It's a dream. Why would that be offensive. If you take your dreams as being important, then that is where I appear. I must be important to you in some way you just haven't figured out. Anyway I will stay out if that's what you want. I only replied because of CFs baiting. Your call.

How can you say that you know all this for certain when you are convinced it's all just a dream ? Which is to say, you don't actually believe your own hype, or you wouldn't even try.

I think it has to with your own karma and how much karmic trace you have left to work on. Is not healthy when your karmic traces being manifested in you dreams and begin to dictate your life style in your waking reality. You are basically replacing one set of illusions with another...from your dreams.... How can you be sure your dream reality and visions are real and grounded on some ultimate reality??? You can not.....

sure enough, increasingly lucidity and even breakthroughs via dream states significantly shifted my waking experience to be more aware of 'awareness' or the 'basic ground'. along with this comes more direct perception of energy - the gaps between everything become clearer as the mind penetrates the subconscious/subtle side of our reality.

Those were just what I needed this morning, CT. I'm learning the basics of TCM, the 5 elements. Seeing my own nature through the eyes of these elements and what they represent inside us is unbelievable. But it brings to mind an event that happened last night, and when it says in your quote 'Phenomena are like a dream, empty of true nature'. This morning I experience the concept of us being the microcosm to the macrocosm in a very individual way. Every moment there is opportunity to view manifestation (of our own projections) and see what they are telling us. Last night my partner and I were trying to hang a heavy metal chandelier off a mobile home ceiling. It occurred to me that the weight of the metal lamp was too heavy for the circumstances, and that Joe hadn't screwed into a beam. I became aware that this would not work. Joe, on the other hand, was of the attitude, 'well, we'll find out when we get down here next time' (to Florida). I immediately saw the relationship of this event to the 5 elements system, and how I am experiencing 'weakness' (in several forms) in my heart. And I immediately could see in my mind's eye coming down here this fall and finding my ceiling fallen, my beautiful new wooden table smashed by the chandelier. My first reaction was to shrink, to subjugate myself to him one more time, to let him be the decider in all things out of fear of his explosive nature. The chandelier (metal) is, according to a TCM practitioner I am working with, way too abundant within me and needs to be balanced. The ceiling in this case is representative of my heart, the upper organ. My inability to stand up to Joe (even though everything we have, I have bought - I have virtually mothered him for 33 years in a co-dependent way). And yet, I have recreated the very situation that I grew up with - being terrified of my father. (You'd think by the age of 69 that a person would have 'gotten' this.) Joe has a lot of underlying anger, and as explosive as my father's. My healing, my remedy for the heart and getting the system back into balance, is to stand at my full height. To stop thinking that if everything doesn't go his way, he'll leave me or go out and get drunk (apparently I have a savior complex too). So I have subjugated myself to a man that has duplicated the very same bathtub ring of discomfort that I had as a kid. and this is why I have taken Prozac for 30 years. To keep the truth stifled. What an eye opener. What gratitude I am having for the fact that I have suddenly developed a great interest in TCM and am learning about the phases, interactions, elements. And what an eye-opener to see that at any given moment, particularly in a somewhat unusual situation, that we are truly the microcosm for the macrocosm; that we create the health for our own bodies, and that life gives us opportunity after opportunity to work through it. Sometimes all we have to do is look around, see what's happening, and see how it fits into our particular patterns. I have been so unaware. The rage I am always afraid of when withdrawing from Prozac (one more time) is at none other than myself, for allowing this to reenact over and over for 33 years. Geez, I wish I would grow up. Thank you, CT. (P.S. - I have informed him that I will be calling a handyman today to figure this out, find a beam, and do it right). As to the rest of the sham relationship? One day at a time things will go as things will go.