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But like you've said, your rationality only allows you to know what your rationality will let you know. If something happens and you have a strange uncanny feeling about it, like you dreamt of it the day before. Your mind will simply interpret the feeling according to its own ways: 1) The mystic has no doubt that they have been clairvoyant. 2) The rationalist has no doubt that it is either a coincidence, or that the dream never happened - it is a confabulation. My question still is, do you not see the resemblance here? You likened them each to a kind of faith - like the relative faiths of the atheist and the theist. Can you imagine a way of life that avoids this kind of faith?

An unrelated premonition you mean ? If I'm about to go on holiday and I dream I shall be boarding a plane with some hand luggage then it's impossible to claim some degree of foreknowledge had not helped towards the premonition. It's possible to analyse similar events through the light of pre knowledge. We all create history. We are all at cause and effect. As Einstein said, there is no past, present and future, it's an illusion. It's a continuous movement of objects through time. I think you might be alluding to the thing I have talked about previously. An atheist is someone who does not 'believe' God exists, a religious person is someone who believes God does exist. I observe that similarity.

I've seen many ghosts. Inundated by them. I've been there TI. I have been a mystic for virtually my entire life. I've been out of body, past life, ghosts, clairvoyance and what not. It was all, perfectly real at the time. My brother once had a dream that my Dads office had been broken into and water was pouring down the stairs from a broken pipe. Next day we went across at his insistence and found that to be exactly as he predicted. The problem is not an open mind to mysticism, but a closed mind to reality. Mysticism is the more attractive, just as we enjoy a story, the cinema or the theatre. Truth is not always as palatable as imagination. We run from things we cannot face, from emotions that make us unhappy, from the reality of our lives and our death. We wrap it around us like a defensive cloak and believe in it absolutely.

Me and Buddah would be bezzy mates. :-) you could maybe have a drink with us if we weren't too busy.;-) I've read about Dukkha from the link you gave and it accords precisely with what I'm saying. No difference what so ever. BC was more formulaic saying 'do this get that'. Neither do I propose that anyone follow what I'm doing, or have done. I don't believe there is one solution to suffering, we are all individuals, so it follows that those experiences and actions will necessarily be different. However I see many commonalities with Buddhism now you have pointed me towards it. I don't know what you think you are seeking a way out of ? There is nowhere to go unless you count death as a destination. Loving reality isn't 'loving what is'. There is a subtle, but very important distinction. BK is-I think-like a dream solution, it's effective in that state. You follow the Buddhist route the way you interpret it if it's right for you. Nowt to do with me. We are just talking.

Real simple, a large glass of luke warm water, first thing in the morning. Or putting in some apple cider vinegar? Or genseng extract? Or keep it simple? Staying in bed when you wake up and.. doing ankle rotations remembering your dream going over your day not waking up to an alarm Just standing and doing the orbit and humming and doing chi gung routine in head What practices do you think gives the most bang, for least buck? Michael

First off, this topic concerns "how the world works" so it is not derailing the topic as you suggest.The world, for the most part works on a system of reward and punishment. We have laws, and police whom enforce them. We have natural laws which function the same way. You put your hand in the fire, it gets burned. It hurts. That is a form of punishment. Secondly, I see you've judged me. You yourself are a Judge. In the Buddhist sub forum you stated this: In that quote you have called the Christian system of reward and punishment "childish and incorrect" Why do Reward, Punishment and Judgement stop in the physical plane? Are not the same concepts and practices found in the other planes? Yes they are. You of all people, who frequent the other planes, should have known that. You should have met beings whom could have explained it to you or demonstrated it to you experientially. That is the part that leads me to thinking that you dwell in an imaginary dream world and have no practical experience of the other planes. The other planes have their laws too, don't they? It is a wonderful opportunity to discuss this aspect of reality, isn't it? Instead, you cast a few aspersions (cut and paste, a to b ), refuse to discus the topic at hand and run away. Never mind, there was another member in this forum whom had experience in the other planes. His name is Dawg. He would just explain it as he saw it, not run away and hide. For example, this is what he said: http://thedaobums.com/topic/30012-a-path-to-enlightenment/ But still, I have to say... There are gatekeepers whom will judge you. You seem to think you can fly between the cracks..

Pain is not everything nor imagination. Pain is like a dream, a wrong seeing or bad eyesight.

Is not that you choose to fear but it was this internal fear you have an ego. What is this internal fear? Your past and your life history give rise to this ego and its defense mechanism. What if this fear is being played out in your dreams? Good luck trying not to fear. A fearful dream about your past can linger on throughout your entire daily existence. It makes you feel like you are living in the past again.

i was wondering what people thought about this, any experiences using some reishi for a period of time while engaging in practice? i felt like it was very beneficial to go along with meditation, especially taking just before bed. it can possibly help with entering deeper healing and dream states. that was my experience with purple reishi. and also if anyone is knowledgeable if there is are any drawbacks to using it quite often? ideally i could cultivate some myself.

I am not going to read the entire thread but the entire thread can be shortened by asking one simple question.....did he have a clear light dream? Has he ever entered into a Samadhi? You can't fool and trick a Samadhi.

What would be so bad about things being exactly what they are Dream Bliss ? I shall stay away from pontification as it wouldn't be helpful. Where you are is quite a fragile place and is on the edge of 'everything is subjective'. I would suggest that you should do a lot of grounding activity at this point. Walking, gardening or whatever. Cut back on practices or stop all together. The universe can come back in gradually and you can spend your time at a lower state of subjectivity. At this stage it is habitual to fly off into the world of Neti Neti and it's unpleasant and depressing-as you have found. You will hit the buffers many times, but as long as you ground and self pace the practices you can keep at state of equilibrium. Relax it isn't a race. :-)

Sorry it took so long to respond -- I had evil capitalism to tend to. I left the office (where I run a division with a multi-million dollar operating budget and several dozen employees (PT, FT, hourly, salaried, with benefits, without benefits, you name it) which clearly makes me a greedy bastard responsible for all the world's woes) in order to hurry to my hometown. Why, you might ask? Well, because it was the 38th Annual Sourwood Festival! A three-day street fair in downtown Black Mountain in celebration of the wonderful local sourwood honey, it draws about 30,000 people over the weekend and is populated by over 200 vendors. That's right -- evil, greedy bastards from all over the area who have the temerity to call themselves artisans, craftsmen and merchants instead of properly identifying themselves as heartless oppressors of their fellow humans. These sub-human creatures drove for miles to set up booths from which they would trick passers-by into perusing or sampling (and perhaps -- aack! -- purchasing?!?) handmade local soaps and jewelry and birdhouses and ice-cream and free music and funnel cakes and... and... and... gosh! Oh, and honey. Some of these so-called "vendors" even brought their slaves to work in the hot sun hawking their wares -- like the members of the local high school marching band who sell BBQ from under a couple of big tents loaned by one of the town's funeral homes. The BBQ is donated by a local BBQ joint (another evil greedy bastard who probably doesn't give the workers their God-givengovernment-given rightsbenefits) and all benefits go to the band to help pay for uniforms and instruments and trips and such. So, why was I in such a hurry to get there Friday evening? You see, after more than two decades as a public mental health social worker, my wife is fulfilling a bucket-list dream of being a shop owner. That's right -- she's a proprietor of a business, she actually runs a business!!! (Can you imagine such a heartless thing???) She buys stuff and sells it at a profit (hopefully) and she occasionally employs local townspeople to work part-time in her shop, too. Gack! Her shop, as fate would have it, is located inside the barricaded area (they either close the streets to allow guests to wander safely or they do it in order to establish clear fields of fire in case it is decided to gun them down -- I forget which...) and is actually right next to the stage where the Friday evening talent show is held. (Actually, that's not quite true -- between her shop and the parking lot where the stage is located is the booth run each year by a local ministry which enables inmates from the nearby women's prison to come and sell donated books as a fundraiser.) With the amount of traffic through the shop, she really couldn't run it alone. On the way in, though, I stopped at a neighborhood Chinese restaurant for some take-out. While I love the street fair fare (if you follow me), my wife's medical condition makes it generally off-limits (and just plain bad for you) so I picked up some steamed rice and an order of steamed shrimp and snow peas for her. That place is run by a whole bunch of evil, greedy bastards who accidentally emigrated, legally, from The People's Paradise of China and who, apparently, are working hard to save enough money for the boat ride back, or whatever. Must be an expensive boat ride, though, because they have been here for years -- their now-teenaged kids work in the shop, too, and speak English fluently and with a Southern accent. Anyhow, after the festival started winding down for the night, we went around the corner to The Town Pump for a beer. Another evil capitalistic establishment run by a nice young lady who clearly is responsible for many of the world's woes which cannot be hung directly around my wife's neck. This place hires several bartenders who work part-time and who therefore are cheated out of their Godgovernment-given rights as well. They seem blissfully unaware of how oppressed they are, though, and it is always a pleasant place to visit. The Pump had a guy that night who was trying to break a guitar for tips, though, and doing it loudly -- so we went to another evil capitalistic establishment across the street, instead, and had a cold draft IPA brewed by a local greedy business. Saturday morning, we were back in the shop, watching all the poor unfortunate visitors being unwittingly oppressed by all the evil capitalists who tricked them into buying fresh bread and letting their kids ride the Ferris wheel and such. Lather, rinse, repeat. If your worn-out Marxist rhetoric wasn't so clichéd and predictable, I would demand an apology for what you are saying about my wife. Oh! As to the thing about 1-in-3 children living in poverty, I would encourage you to (but have no expectation that you will) read that link I posted earlier. It thoroughly destroys that fallacy so I don't need to. I will point out that I have personal knowledge of where that 1-in-3 number comes from -- it is actually the number of children who report having gone to bed hungry. That's right -- the government sends agents into public elementary schools (like the ones my son attended) to survey children. One of the questions asked is whether the child has ever gone to bed hungry; if the kid recently was told he couldn't have one more cookie and glass of milk at bedtime, he might answer "yes" (sniffle) and would therefore be counted as not having enough to eat. That's not to say that there aren't children in America living in true poverty or living on the streets or not getting enough food -- of course there are! But the problem is significantly overstated by those who have a vested interest in increased redistribution and in growing the roles of government dependency. BTW, the US federal minimum wage has been in existence sine 1938 and has been adjusted 28 times since then. Not counting the $22 trillion spent on the War Against Poverty through redistributive federal programs in the last 50 years, one would think three-quarters of a century of mandatory wage requirements would have solved the problem by now, if it were able to do so. Almost makes one wonder whether the stated objective is as it appears...

This monkey example is cool. These kinds of moments sustains our modified functioning and brings this primal which is given, seems we dont learn it, were equiped in some pure knowledge needed to sustain our living. Usually strong emotional things like that can also trigger awakening or partial awakening of some regions . And about your dream it seems happening this way. I dont know this terminology, but seems that the first shot of awakening happends this way, you kind of cross the critical mass and kind of "see" behind the patterns and then, since there is this recognition of your self - of what is true all what isnt the true self has to be purified but it goes on its own from now on, taking of the fixations on different chakras , for some it lasts long, for others quicker. With time you just experience these ego patterns less and less, and conflicted inner dialogues are gone too. It is preceived like dissolving of these pieces of personality and it can be called transcending too, than the energy is no longer involved into inner conflict and you also preceive this as a quality change in your being.

This is a really interesting breakdown of 'minds', thanks Kubba. Interesting information on the fast and slow minds. This made me think of a time when I was out on a bush track with my two children who were very young at the time, the oldest would have been about two, and he had walked off the track a couple of steps right into the path of a venomous tiger snake which had reared up, flared out its neck and was facing him. I was a few steps away from him holding the baby, and all I could do was make a primal sound which reminded me at the time of what I imagined a howler monkey would sound like, a 'hoo hoo hoo' noise, it was decidedly pre verbal and dealing directly with the danger at hand, surely an occasion when I used what you describe as 'lower' mind. Amazingly my two year old looked at me and started walking towards me, exactly the response I would have wanted if I had been thinking or talking, and the snake quietly slithered away. I understand ego as being fixated on 'unconscious' mind (lower manas) that is driven by persona, and lower manas simultaneously as being fixated on ego. Ego ingratiatingly agrees with everything lower manas thinks regardless of reality. Information I received in a dream showed me that lower manas needs to raise itself through awareness of its contrived persona to upper manas, where it is no longer driven by unconscious persona and can open to the higher senses, and in this way upper manas can see through ego's 'madness', ignore her 'ego stroking' words, and bring her to ajna to be 'healed'. Perhaps this answers an earlier question I had, and suggests that ego needs to be transcended and transformed, but not killed.

Heaven and Hell Concepts of heaven and hell are but fantasies that arise from a foolish mind. If you open the Eye and realize true wisdom, such fantasies disappear by themselves. You will see that everything is Buddha and everything is tranquil, and that even the concepts of "heaven" and "hell" disappear completely. But if you don't wake up from a sleep, you continue to dream. Thus, if you don't open the Eye, then, unfortunately, you continue on the endless cycles as sentient beings. And since this world of sentient beings is boundless, Buddhas continue traversing the realms until all sentient beings are liberated from suffering. ~ Zen master Tong Songchol (1912~1993)

So a little while ago I was taught a mudra in a dream. Now, I have started to use this mudra in my daily practices, but the other day was a long day, and I hadn't done my scheduled practice, and I was on the bus home, when I decided to do a little meditation, and I formed the mudra as I leaned my elbows on my knees, and the mudra was between my legs. It's not a real flashy mudra. However, I looked up a couple minutes later and someone across and off to the side from me (she was an older woman, around 50) was staring quite intently at my hands, I got a sinking feeling like I had just been "observed", I put my hands in my pockets and leaned back, and didn't use it for the rest of the day. The next day I used the mudra, and it had a very different feel to it- not at all as it had been feeling in the past couple of days. Now certain traditions and systems say that one must keep personal things, like personal mudras and things, secret, because when you use something like that it gathers power in a certain way, and if someone else were to find out about it they could tap into the power that you had spent so much work making. My question is.... am I just being paranoid? Was this lady tapping into my power (even if it was subconsciously), stealing it? Or am I just jumping at shadows? Is it still safe to use? The thing is that in the context of my dream, I was in a group of people all learning the mudra, so it does have some sort of a "group" component, but I'm not sure if it was meant to be limited to just that group... so I was hoping if I could get everyone's thoughts on the matter.

Aahhh yes, the kindness of free market capitalism. It must be the dream of millions to be cared for by the tender mercies of companies like Monsanto, Shell Oil, McDonald's, Kraft Foods, etc., etc. I take it your statement about a system like this providing for the needs of others, was so thickly coated with irony that the only truth in it was the full stop at the end ?

I'm not claiming to be an expert on Taoism, but what you're pointing out is spot on. I'm afraid you won't be getting any reasonable answers to this. Furthermore, dying is also natural. Trying to postpone dying or to even become immortal is unnatural as well. A lot of people, myself included, believe that a lot of what is called "taoist" is not true to the teachings of Laozi and Zhuangzi. I won't say those deviant teachings are always and completely without value though, because I think it's fine to question anything, including nature. Even a dream body, which we all can admit is completely immaterial, can die in the dream, and is not immortal. As for holding back ejaculation, I think the real reason people do that is to prolong their sexual pleasure. Claiming that it has a higher spiritual purpose is pure bullshit in my view.

Continuing, Chuang Tzu said: The Useless Tree A certain carpenter and his apprentice were traveling to another state. On reaching a place called Shady Circle, they saw a sacred tree in the temple of the Spirit of Earth. It was so large that its shade could cover a herd of several hundred cattle. It was a hundred spans in girth, towering up eighty feet over the hilltop before it branched out. A dozen boats could be cut out of it. Crowds stood gazing at it, but the carpenter took no notice, and went on his way without even casting a look behind. His apprentice, however, took a good look at it, and when he caught up with his master, said, “Ever since I have handled an adze in your service, I have never seen such a splendid piece of timber. How was it that you, Master, did not care to stop and look at it?” “Forget about it. It’s not worth talking about.” replied his master. “It’s good for nothing. Made into a boat, it would sink; into a coffin, it would rot; into furniture, it would break easily; into a door, it would sweat; into a pillar, it would be worm-eaten. It is wood of no quality, and of no use. That is why it has attained its present age and size.” When the carpenter reached home and went to sleep he dreamt that the spirit of the tree appeared to him and spoke to him as follows: “What is it you intend to compare me with? Is it with fine-grained wood? Look at the cherry-apple, the pear, the orange, the pumelo, and other fruitbearers. As soon as their fruit ripens they are stripped and treated with indignity. The great boughs are snapped off, the small ones scattered abroad. Thus do these trees by their own value injure their own lives. They cannot fulfill their allotted span of years, but perish prematurely because they destroy themselves for the admiration of the world. Thus it is with all things. Moreover, I tried for a long period to be useless. Many times I was in danger of being cut down, but at length I have succeeded, and so have become exceedingly useful to myself. Had I indeed been of use to others, I should not have been able to grow to this height. Moreover, you and I are both created things. Have done then with this criticism of each other. Is a good-for-nothing fellow in imminent danger of death a fit person to talk of a good-for-nothing tree?” When the carpenter awaked and told his dream, his apprentice said, “If the tree aimed at uselessness, how was it that it became a sacred tree?” “Hush!” replied his master. “Keep quiet. It merely took refuge in the temple to escape from the abuse of those who do not appreciate it. Had it not become sacred, how many would have wanted to cut it down? Moreover, the means it adopts for safety is different from that of others, and to criticize it by ordinary standards would be far wide of the mark.”

Many years ago I had a dream where I looked out of a large window and saw the ‘oceanriver’. I was thinking about this image and this specific word yesterday, along the lines of when the river merges with the ocean the river no longer exists in the same form but has become perceptibly more, but also that the ocean is no longer just ocean but has become imperceptibly more. I think reaching the point where the river is merged to that extent, no ego would remain.

Since IMO the 'elements' are not things but concepts then the meaning and arrangement of them changes according to the conceptual use. One use I see as 'hierarchical' - not so much that each is 'subordinate' to another, all interact, but there is 'order of manifestation'.- is in the comparison to 'parts of the psyche' : Very simply; Fire - inspiration, Water - 'feeling' assesment, Air - 'mental assesment', Earth - putting the above into action. Many do not understand fire, inspiration, individuation, connection to spirit , also with water ; emotions are unclear, confused and clouded, misunderstood, etc. This leaves the mind to be head of the hierarchy, and many systems teach about the dangers of that, and how the mind needs to be regulated or trained. Of course, without the earth action grounding at the end, the whole exercise was a pipe dream and never manifested.. With out regulation from air - intellect, mentation, calculation, planning, assesment, inspoirations or feelings dont manifest, or without intelligent critical ability ... all sorts of phantasms are chased , asserted and believed in. If water is lacking so is feeling, a deeper connection, things have to 'feel right' sit right in the unconscious, some even say to 'sleep on' an important decision. What is this but 'running it through' the unconscious? . And of course, without fire we have no individual inspiration or good and original ideas in the first place. So most of us chug along, with mind trying to run the machine. Mind is not the 'ruler' , it has a job to do and should do it in its place of 3rd regulator. Of course, mind being used to thinking it is boss will rebel at this concept ... its up to us to persuade it and get it to see 'reason'. Air is interesting in that is also 'pnuema' breath , animating breat and spirit. So air can be 'spirit' or 'element' . Metal ? I dont see how it fits in , I have never really looked into the systems with metal included. From here, it looks like it is a result of the above 4 ( metal not appearing commonly in nature, it takes human ingenuity and the above 4 principles to make it - in the form we use it. I dont see a gender hierarchy , each element is receptive to the one 'above' and gives its energy to the one 'below'. The 'units' exist in polarities .

Q So the world is not really illusory A at the level of the spiritual seeker you have got to say the world is an illusion. There is no other way... There is no universe without the self. So long as man does not see the self which is the origin of all, but looks only at the external world as real and permanent, you have to tell him that this external universe is an illusion. Sankara: Brahman is real The universe is unreal, and The universe is Brahman. Q so the world is real when it is experienced as the self and unreal when it is seen as separate names and form. A just as fire is obscured by smoke, the shining light of consciousness is obscured by the assemblage of names and forms the world. When by compassionate divine grace the mind becomes clear , the nature of the world will be known to be not the illusory forms, but on the reality. Q I cannot say this is all clear to me. Is the world that is seen, felt and sensed by U.S. In so many ways something like a dream, an illusion. A there is no alternative for you but to accept the world as unreal if you are seeking the truth and truth alone. Q why so? A for the simple reason that unless you give up the idea that the world is real then your mind will always be after it.if you take the appearance to be real you will never know the real itself, although it is the real alone that exists.The point is illustrated by the analogy of the snake in the rope. You may be deceived into believing that the piece of rope is the snake. While you imagine the rope is the snake you cannot see the rope as a rope . The non existent snake becomes real to you , while the real rope seems wholly non existent as such. Excerpts from 'be as you are' the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi p187/188

I also find there are varying degrees of lucidity. Some are more stable and allow more methodical action. In general, there is not a lot of time for me to waste, I need to be able react immediately and engage in whatever lucid activity I choose. They key again is to set a very strong intention prior to sleep rather than trying to act on the fly during the dream. This doesn't always work but it helps.

Hi Blasto, Cat and All Haven't been around the bums for a while, but figured I would drop by today and see where things are at....other then the new format everything seems pretty much the exact same around here About energy and young children....have been wondering about this myself for a while now. My wife is a little over 5.5 months prego right now, and I have semi recently had an extreme increase in kundalinic energy lately as there has been a switch in motivation here....have switched from doing practices for my own benefit and have started doing everything in service of the Divine....being a servant is a powerful practice And since this recent opening I have noticed some changes in those around me....from my wife, to my friends and co-workers, to my pets....there seems to have been a "shift" in all those I have been in contact with recently....even accidentally gave shaktipat to someone during a deep spiritual conversation just yesterday....she is still trying to understand what happened/is happening (extreme energy and perception changes, heart opening, and "extra periphery vision"). Anyways, in November while at a yoga teacher training intensive, I had a dream in which I received shaktipat from my (soon to be) daughter (who I didn't know [for sure] was a girl at the time, this was before the sex determining ultrasound) who was (in the dream) the "star pupil" of a "kundalini facilitation class". This drastically changed the energetic flow in the body and I have been, not struggling, but perhaps a better term would be "coming to grips with" these changes ever since. I am still not quite sure how to "control" (if that is even possible) the outward flow of this energy (hence accidentally giving shaktipat to this friend I met last evening). I am already very sure that my daughter is going to be quite spiritually advanced when she arrives at the end of May/beginning of June, but I would also like to be very sure that I can do no harm to her by holding her close/being close to her while the energy flow is very high. If anyone has any suggestions here, they will be read with enthusiasm and acceptance. Thank you and may you all enjoy this moment as much as I am. Namaste. _/\_ Love.

Half the reason I would lose a lucid dream was because I got so excited that I had become lucid, and interested in exploring my lucidity, that I would wake up. So I started trying to remind myself that the next step when lucidity was reached was to try to do very little, to avoid that effort of will which would spark a wake up.