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Hi Shen, Yes, visitations from preservers of the White Tiger family of internal arts do occur. Just as Sifu Garry described in his own case, I had constant psychic and telepathic communications with GMDW during my years of training. And Sifu Garry is absolutely right in saying that it is usually the art that chooses the man and not the other way around. But don't take our word for it, test out the extra-ordinary advice you received you received through the dream-state. And see what happens. Best, Sifu Terry http://www.taichimania.com/chikung_catalog.html

from http://www.hypnogenesis.com/drwier1.htm Sort of a long article, but I think worth the time to read and understand for just about everyone. Our Unconscious Trance States by Denis R. Wier, Director of the Trance Institute. Most people slip in and out of various kinds of trance states hundreds of times during what is called the "normal waking state." Gurdjieff taught that to become aware that you are asleep is the first step in waking up. If you are interested in staying awake, it is quite helpful, now and then, to count your trances, just to make sure you haven't slipped back into unconsciousness. There are light trances, deep trances, short-term trances and life-long trances. There are pain relieving trances and pain producing trances. There are healing trances and pathological trances. I have been studying trance for the past 25 years and I want to explore with you just a few important areas where trances can be found: hypnosis, addictions, religions and work. So what is a trance? To many psychologists a trance is a state of limited awareness. Some psychologists would also characterize trance as a form of sleep, or dreamlike awareness or a kind of altered state of consciousness. Certainly trance has long been associated with hypnotic states, and with the altered states of consciousness of dervishes, shamans and yogis. Meditation does produce strong trance states. However, in my opinion, trance states are much more common than is normally believed. If the unusual trance state of a shaman or a yogi is desirable, then we might be tempted to believe that all trance states are desirable states. Hypnotic Trances The type of trance studied most has been the hypnotic trance. Milton Erickson, the great psychotherapist, had wonderful and nearly immediate psychological cures in a great many of his patients. His technique was called "Ericksonian hypnosis." Many people tried to explain what it was that he did, because in many cases, his patients claimed that they were not hypnotized and they were not in any kind of trance at all. Erickson's recorded dialogs were analyzed for years to try to find out what it was exactly that made his form of hypnotherapy so successful. Richard Bandler, John Grinder and others were successful in finally analyzing and modelling Erickson's techniques. They devised what they called "neuro-linguistic programming," also known as NLP, which is based primarily on Erickson's techniques. With NLP it is relatively easy to hypnotize a person and to keep that person in a trance state without their being aware that they are in fact in a trance. The technique of pacing and leading a subject from a rich or varied set of thoughts to a limited or impoverished set of thoughts is a technique used consciously by hypnotists, advertisers, sales people, preachers and politicians. Many stage hypnotists use Ericksonian or NLP derived hypnotic techniques in order to induce trance. TV hypnotists on daytime television can induce a trance after only a few minutes of seemingly innocuous talk. During this time, the subject can be given post-hypnotic suggestions to alter behavior and perception in peculiar ways during the TV show. Television advertisers and the designers of commercials are aware of the techniques of Bandler and Grinder and use them often in commercials. The trance-induction potential of television media is well-known and is often used for manipulating consumer tastes. However useful television is for commercial and social control reasons, it cannot be reasonably argued that promoting an impoverished reality is, in the end, really socially beneficial. Salespersons, preachers and politicians are aware of NLP techniques and often consciously use Ericksonian techniques in order to promote their own agendas. As you talk with a salesperson or listen to a preacher or politician you might never admit that you were in a trance of any kind. Have you ever 'spaced out' listening to a preacher? Politicians? Computer software salespersons? Some professional sales training institutes unabashedly teach hypnotic techniques to their sales trainees. It is clear to them that if a buyer is put into a hypnotic trance then it is much easier to sell a product. Because the ethics of using such techniques on the unaware is questionable, some states have laws that give you the right to cancel a contract within 24 or 48 hours of signing. Supposedly, this gives you time to "wake up" from your unconscious state. So how can you tell if you are in one of these ordinary, unconscious trances? You are in a trance when your attention is limited and there is a certain repetition of thoughts. In an extreme case, your attention is so limited that it feels like "tunnel vision." The repetition of thoughts might be mantras, songs, repeating fantasies, or even the math calculations of balancing your checkbook. That song you can't get out of your head indicates a trance. Concentration, when the mind is focused on a specific problem or thought, is also a form of trance. You could characterize trance cybernetically as an awareness loop, or a circular flow of consciousness. Repetition of mantras, the whirling of dervishes, the chanting and drumming of shamans, the repetition of TV commercials all induce trance by limiting your attention and overloading your mind with repeated thoughts. The purposes may be different, the results may be different, but in my opinion the difference in trance is mainly of degree. Once your mind is flying around in a tight loop, at some point you become used to this tight loop. You can also say that you have learned the loop. At that point, you might have the feeling that you can think ordinary thoughts even though another part of your mind is still flying around in this tight loop. The part of you that is the conscious 'you' is the observer of the 'you' that is the automaton flying around in this endless loop. The conscious 'you' is actually in a trance even though you feel perfectly conscious. Here's why.... Normally, you have certain cognitive abilities such as the ability to remember things accurately, the ability to make judgements, you are generally aware of your body if you put your mind to it, you are alert to your surroundings, and you generally are not observing yourself doing things, you are doing them. These cognitive abilities draw on our energies. When we learn new things, learning means that we can do it more efficiently. That means, we don't need to put all of our energy into maintaining what we have learned. At the same time, doing something by habit does take some cognitive energy, which leaves our conscious mind a bit short. Particular types of loops will absorb greater amounts of our energy, leaving our conscious minds relatively disabled. When we let our mind go in a loop, and then allow ourselves to step away and observe, the observing part may actually not function at full capacity. That means, your memory might not work so well, you may not be able to make a judgement, you will probably be much more self-observing, you may not be aware of your body, you may not be aware of your surroundings so much because of fixed attention. You might even hallucinate. Some psychologists call this trance logic. What is interesting is that this dissociated or trance state is often combined with rewards. That is, we are generally encouraged to go into trance even though this state results in a somewhat disabled mental condition. Whether you are passively watching TV football, or engaging in rational rigorously precise thoughts, or having an emotional jolt of religious fervor, or feeling patriotic passion, or if you are an addict of any kind, or if you have the compulsive mindset of a mass murderer you are in a trance. Why? Because all these states encourage a fixed, narrow attention span and they all reward the repetition of an impoverished set of thoughts. Most of the above are pathological trances, that is, over the long term they will produce pathologies. It is well-known that when you are in a trance your attention can be diverted effectively enough to produce anesthesia sufficient for dental work or some types of surgery. Lamaze natural childbirth breathing techniques uses the resulting narrowed span of attention to help reduce pain. This narrowing of attention, the concentration of the mind on maintaining the breathing patterns, diverts the attention from the physical pain sensations during childbirth with the result that the mother becomes less aware of any uncomfortable sensations. The power of a mind in a trance can do things which it ordinarily cannot do. Giving birth painlessly is only one example. Trance can also be used to reduce psychological pain such as anxiety, fear, worry, as well as the universal Weltschmerz. Instead of consciously addressing the causes of the pain, trance can successfully divert the attention so that one is aware of neither the pain nor the causes of pain. Hypnotic trance is only one way to remove pain. Alcohol, drug, religion, work, consumption, and TV trance addictions can also be counted as other ways of removing pain. I believe addictions of all sorts are forms of pathological trance. Pathological Trance States and Addictions Addiction can be better understood if we think of it not merely as "substance abuse," or performance addiction, but as a form of an impoverished reality that is maintained by a pathological trance. Limited awareness, tunnel vision, the special characteristic that identifies a dysfunctional, impoverished reality, also identifies a type of pathological trance state that may be also a characteristic of all addictions. If you really want to get into a pathological trance and stay there, here's a general recipe. First, you must impoverish your reality by removing all distractions and limit your awareness to a single, or at most a very few objects of attention. This narrowing of attention can be helped along by the passions inspired by drugs, trauma, by joining some religious or political movements or by staying at home and watching a lot of television or computer screen. It would be a good idea to get rid of distractions like kids, magazines or books -- especially books that give you options or make you think about other possibilities. Second, you must convince yourself that all options -- other than your chosen perfect ideal, of course -- are "evil" and every attempt that your monkey mind makes to have variety must be crushed and that you must keep your mind "pure" and only allow thoughts about your chosen passion. This mental trick will serve to concentrate your attention firmly on the object. Controlling Your Addictive Trances Start at any place in your addictive trance. Addictive trances reward an impoverished thought-set. You can help reduce any addiction by rewarding the enrichment of your thoughts. This means to expand the variety of your thoughts without trying to remove the thoughts you think are the problem. Continue expanding and enriching your thoughts with new and stimulating ideas, people and experiences. When the variety of your thoughts becomes robust, ideas will be self-generating and the addictive trance will naturally cease to exist by definition. While pathological trances are not at all desirable, most people nearly all of the time are either in a pathological trance or are engaged in trying to get others into trance. It is precisely pathological trance, not the yogic trance, that permeates most of our waking reality. It seems to me that once we can identify these pathological trances on a personal level we can take steps to avoid them. If trance is defined as fixated thinking, then nearly all human activities create some type of trance. The bounded circles of thinking that keep us in trances are countless. The entire "ordered universe" is a trance. But there is an escapists pleasure in remaining in trance and a deep human fear of the chaos which can result if there were no trance "order" to life. Socialization itself is the process of putting a person into a long-term trance. You do not go to work naked because of socialization. The socialization process started by parents and continued by religious training, schools, universities and employment in different ways all create a multiplicity of long-term trance-states, the result of which puts you in a bounded circle of limited but socially acceptable activity. Without these long-term trances your life would be more chaotic and perhaps you would be more painfully aware of too many choices. Every choice we make limits our options and makes life seem more manageable. When we stick to our choices at all costs we are in a pathological trance. Perhaps the most important aspect of pathological trance is that it creates an unawareness or a "sleeping state". When your thoughts are limited in variety and your attention becomes fixed, the fixation alters perceptions, can create dream states, visions and hallucinations. In this sleeping state you are unaware of new information. Entranced by the street magician, you are unaware that the pickpocket has removed your wallet. The pathological trance state can create illusions which do not exist and cause the failure to perceive what does exist. On the other hand, the trance state of a yogi can be a tool to illuminate what is not normally perceived. Religious Trance There are religious healers who, by means of their special meditative trances, can perform healings in others. Such healers may certainly be envied for these powers. Yet, unfortunately, even meditative trance states can become pathological trances if they become an end in themselves. By knowing how to identify pathological trances it may be possible to avoid them. Like any other trance, religious states of ecstasy can be created by narrowing ones perception to the religious object. Second, every attraction that would draw you away from the adored and worshiped object must be seen as an impediment in some sense. Third, all rational and ordinary thought can stop. When this is accomplished, the only content left in the mind are the artifacts of the religious object, and this, and the resulting perceptions, is what the supplicant may appreciate as "religious ecstasy." So long as the ecstasy does not become an end in itself these trance states may be very valuable. Proselytizing religions often use methods that will induce trance. Peer pressure, confessional types of testimonials, sense deprivation, lack of contradicting testimony, hysteria, hyper-emotionalism all contribute to constrain awareness and to increase suggestibility. Suggestibility continued over time will give rise to hallucinatory trance states. When combined with the rewards of stress release, the trances become pathological and addictive. Religious fervor, as a state which feeds upon itself without end, is also quite definitely an addiction or a pathological trance state. The concentrative force of trance can also block out any sense of compassion for humans, and can be itself the basis for unimaginable cruelties. Religious addiction often carries with it an intransigence and intolerance of different points of view that can be as dangerous as a drug addict with a loaded gun. When religious fervor is combined with the rule of law and armed with deadly force, religious addicts effectively stop the evolution of a better type of human being. Trance in the Workplace The person who can put long, continuous hours at a difficult job may only be capable to doing this if in a trance. The pleasures of an engaging job can produce feelings of timeless states. Repetitive jobs narrow the attention to only the work at hand. Part of the mind is engaged in the job, but another part of the mind is free to dream. The dream-state produced is exactly characteristic of trance. In this dream-state, the work is being performed, but the worker is not necessarily aware of working. He may be visualizing a beach, having sexual or power fantasies or other hypnoidal and hypnotic dreams. The worker seems awake, but is really in a trance of reduced awareness. Work addicts are almost revered for their devotion to the duty to work. Calvin and Zwingli have convinced entire societies that the person who works and makes money is closer to God and has most assuredly has an eternal lease in one of heaven's plushier communities. Employers love work addicts because of this devotion which so enhances profit. Work addictions are not limited to any one particular industry. As a professional computer consultant, I have seen how some employers shamelessly exploit willing computer programmers who are addicted to computers. Trance in the work place makes it easier to control information and employees. If an employee only does the job and knows neither what others are doing nor how they do it, that employee will never become a threat to the owners of the business. One presumes - falsely - that the owners of a business would be the only ones who would be aware of what their business is really doing. Yet, owners are themselves in trance and many times keep their attentions on the "bottom line." They, too, may not be aware of the social or environmental impacts of their business. Unfortunately, one of the disastrous side-effects of most trances is that they not only inhibit awareness but also they disable communication. One cannot communicate what one is not aware of. The most serious social side effect of pathological trance is the reduced awareness and disabled communication. Communication of information is critical for any system to function. Human systems as well as computer systems, ecological, biological, political and social systems and more all require clear, accurate, timely communication of information in order to function. The lack of clear, accurate, or timely communication between individuals is the basis for misunderstandings, disappointments, hurt feelings, resentment, and violence. The human, economic, agricultural, industrial and social systems that rely on people who are in pathological trance has disastrous consequences. Pathological trance is unfortunately almost universally encouraged within business organizations. The more an employee can with single-minded determination execute the orders and policies of his organization, the more that employee is rewarded, promoted and respected. Single-mindedness, however, is a pathological trance. And trance always implies that there are areas where the employee is "asleep", unaware. When organizations encourage trance in their employees, and since trance disables communication, then there can be no wonder why there are so many system dysfunctions in the world. When, unlike a yogi, we do not choose our trances, and we are unaware of the types and nature of the pathological trances in our lives, then there are things we are unaware of. What we are unaware of causes more human suffering than the sometimes painful knowledge of the truth. One goal of a robust and magical life is to be as aware as possible of our options. When our unconscious pathological trances cripple our options the result is often disaster and tragedy in our personal lives, our society and in the environment. Dennis R. Wier is the Director of The Trance Institute and author of the book 'Trance: from Magic to Technology'. (HB: ISBN 1-888428-37-6 / Pb:ISBN 1-888428-38-4) The Trance Institute, inc. Sunnehaldenstrasse 7, CH-8311 Brütten, Switzerland Tel: (++41) 52 347 10 08 Fax: (++41) 52 347 10 09 E-mail [email protected] Web site http://www.trance.ch

Hi, Dzogchen mentions that one must have what's called "transmission or be introduced to one's own nature" through a master. Verbally explaining it won't do it. It's akin to saying writing a book about ripe, delicious cherries....Great book! no actual food! Although some people are born with the "inborn understanding" of Dzogchen and the state of Naked Awareness, most of us were not....lol Jiddhu Krishnamurti talked a LOT about Choiceless Awareness which is what Dzogchen calls "Naked Awareness." Krishnamurti said that one could be Choicelessly Aware unknowingly but did need a teacher....he himself taught on & about Choiceless Awareness quite a lot. Choiceless Awareness corresponds to the Semde or "Mind series" teachings in Dzogchen only and not working with the subtle energy system or "voice." Of course, Naked awareness/Bare attention is something EVERYONE can learn but how one "works" with that is another story, as mentioned above. One inevitably needs a teacher or at least the verbatim words of a real teacher of these things....no 2 ways about it. Krishnamurti is the only teacher who taught about such high level things openly, that I'm aware of! Maybe some Theras understand this Choiceless Awareness or maybe not...I don't know. Anyway, Check out Krishnamurti's study book called "Choiceless Awareness" & pick up "Self Liberation through seeing with Naked Awareness" by Snow Lion publications. You won't be disappointed. Regarding teachings through dreams: One must have "culled" the ability to be aware in the dream itself. This is a practice taught in Dzogchen circles. Rudolf Steiner mentions "continuity of consciousness from sleep into the dreaming state." I think that THIS is something different than Dzogchen teachings but obviously similar. Finally, One has to have a relationship IN the spirit realm. "Who would a person communicate to and Why?" are the quintessential questions along with "Why would a person/entity want to talk with me if they didn't have an agenda? be it selfish or selfless???" is the other question. I hope this makes sense sir. Take care & God bless you! Stefos P.S. I view Advaita Vedanta in the same manner as I do Dzogchen...it's all theory without a teacher!

It was the dream of the founding fathers to give man what he has never had before and that was freedom. Since the dawn of civilized man ; man has always been ruled by another with no personal rights or boundaries from the ruling elite.

I have read a bunch of Dzogchen books and tried to practice from them because theoretically Dzogchen makes so much sense to me, but without the pointing out instructions by a qualified Lama I never really knew if what I was doing was correct or if I was just wasting my time. I did enjoy reading the autobiography of Dudjom Lingpa though which is one of the most bizarre spiritual books I have ever read, which involves him fighting with demons by grabbing them by the ankles and spinning them around and other strange tales, but he received his entire Buddhist training in dreams and visions so reading that really gives you motivation to try to work with your own dreams and visions because if he can get teachings in dream time why not you?

hi TI, remember that its okay to have a different impression of a book than someone else. I am glad to hear that you like it so much. i have read about clear light in a bunch of places.. the union of luminosity and emptiness, the subtle manifestation underlying all reality, and so on and so forth what i don't have is direct experience of clear light, unimpeded by other aspects of reality. Maybe in the bardo, but i didn't recognize it as such at that time. i have read (lopon malcolm) that clear light has nothing to do with seeing visions of light, At any rate, i didn't say it was a bad book. I said i liked the introduction better than the translation and commentary. Thats just me expressing how it struck me.. as in, good thing we aren't all the same! lol i never said that the book wasn't good. anyway, i don't have a lot to add, although i have been practicing the beginning stages of sleep and dream yoga, with small but good results, but dont want to talk about that much.. inner yogas and dzogchen are traditionally private, so even when i do achieve results, i think that they are just for me. I prefer to keep my practice sealed in the traditional way. Even when i talk privately with people about my experiences i feel really weird about it afterwards. I think its best for me just to talk to my lama and other meditation teachers about things like that. But i digress If i achieve insight into clear light in a general way, i will be happy to share for the benefit of others. Til then, the words are just words to me (alas! lol)...

KYE HO! Listen with joy! Investment in samsara is futile; it is the cause of every anxiety. As worldly involvement is pointless, seek the heart of reality! One realizes joy only after one lets go of the need for joy. Need that arises from ordinary knowledge longs for things that it believes it does not have. In reality, everything already is; there is no lack, only beliefs that conceal abundance. Need also attracts more to need. If I say, "I need money," the universe doesn’t bring money, it brings more circumstances to need money. The essence of reality is akin to physics’ observation of nonlocality or universal correlation, that is, the understanding that everything in nature is instantaneously connected with and affected by everything else. Bell’s theorem showed experimentally that this is so. If A is instantly aware of where B is, even though they may be located at opposite ends of the universe, this implies that A and B, although perceived as different, have some fundamental sameness. Such a phenomenon upsets science, and scientists ridicule universal correlations as astrological superstition or spiritual nonsense. From a duality point of view, all phenomena are interdependent on all other phenomena, both form and emptiness. That understanding is as a gateway to the essence of reality. One taste of the relationship between form and emptiness is like becoming lucid within a dream, becoming aware that it is only a dream. To pursue the essence of reality is to attract to yourself that which you cannot leave and that which cannot leave you. Only that which is permanent cannot leave you. Permanence is uncovered in the present. You may have heard the term power of the now. All power, all energy, all form, and all emptiness arises from the now. Not the perceived present. All perception is in the past. In the transcending of mind’s dualities is supreme vision; In a still and silent mind is supreme meditation; In spontaneity is supreme activity; And when all hopes and fears have died, the goal is reached. Balance can only be realized in the timeless now of undivided, clear light. Energy and mass do not and cannot exist outside time. There is no now in time. The now is like a still fulcrum upon which time and energy move interdependently with space. Understanding this shifts our ability to use attention and intention to the highest perfection. A profound shift is illustrated in Harry Nilsson’s fable of Oblio’s leaving the Land of Point, where everyone was required by law to have a point, and everything had to have a point.

1.The Ultimate Teaching cannot be taught through the senses, however, by metamorphesizing a winged inner sense, metasensory Gnowing can reveal, this mystery to the Heart of our Essence. 2.Space is not understood, but merely perceived as That, which is filled and unfilled with form; the Ultimate Teaching is not dependent on object-ivity, the Whole can only be realized through Wholeness. 3.can a hole be defined by what's around it? that's not describing the hole; likewise, Wholeness is unrecognized outside itself, concepts and forms obscured through illusion. 4.to have a center there must be an edge, as the ambits dissolve, the center disperses with it; the here becomes meaningless without a there, then the truth of Mind is no longer unfamiliar. 5.what shape and colour is a banana? absorbing all spectral light and reflecting yellow doesn't make it yellow, while under a microscope, neither has it a shape, until we think one is there; the Mind's essence is beyond shape and form. 6.the predispositions of a thousand eons is incapable of concealing the Still HeartLight of Life; similiarly, the self-imposed cycle of suffering has no power to cloak the HeartLight of Mind's Essence. 7.there is no void nor vaccum in space, it is either defined or undefined; although the true essence of Mind is Light, that StillCauselessLight cannot be seen, only gnown. 8.the essence of Mind resembles space, in that it embraces all that is perceived; Rest, and Be a Silent Witness, for through Love's Stillness, all worlds dissolve. 9.look at the body/form through a microscope, the Mind which you do not see, transcends that Duality; Rest Effortlessly upon the hidden jewel that's you, Letting Go of object-iveness uncovers the Ultimate Teaching. 10.the HeartLight of the Ultimate Teaching cannot be revealed through New Age discourses or preceptual Scriptures, neither from the Mantravada, Paramitas or Tripitaka; the HeartLight of Mind is shrouded by concepts and whimsy's. 11.attachment to morals or immorals cloaks HeartLight's resplendence, yet by holding ones tongue still, the intellect quiets its fears and hopes; then the Causeless fulcrum is embraced, and the efforts of Duality's struggling seesaw vanish. 12.free from the bondage of beliefs, the fiction of discourse and Scripture become apparent; the Ultimate Teaching unbounds the bonds of self-repression, useless suffering and useless pleasure fad away, and the DiamondLight of the Ultimate Teaching glistens authentically. 13.ancestral fear driven zealots deride the Ultimate Teaching, theirs is a life not experienced directly, always viewed from a predisposed past and anticipatory future; Real Compassion and Teachers do not avoid, when either touches your Heart, ecstasy will unfurl. 14.Joy is realized only by Letting Go of the desire for Joy; desires arise from ordinary knowledge, they want for things which are not; In Reality, everything already is. 15.transcending the effects of Duality, all struggle ceases, the Still Nowness of Life reveals the HeartLight of Mind; embraced by zero, the origin of ecstasy where fear filled pasts and hope laden futures never existed. 16.Mind and Truth are synonymous to seek truth is to believe there is a lie; the intent of a path is to get, not to Let Go. 17.Enslaved to illusion and its transient conditions, Duality, is like a projection on a theaters screen; belief in the dream entanges the believer in a space-time construct, yet nature's melody does not exist outside of things. 18.renouncing all social and moral rules, liking nothing, hating nothing, and repiring in amoral innocense; aware of Effortlessness is the Sly Man's way to uncovering who we are; walking without footprints, the Ultimate Teaching is realized. 19.we divide life into self and not self, the here and there, subject and object; and then try to intregrate illusion with reality; Enlightenment is the awareness that there is no Duality. 20.Light is not seen, only the conditions which keep it obscure are seen; the Light at the Heart of Essence has no beginning nor end; zero dimension, razer of logic, is the Holder of the Whole, through Original Mind, the illusion of motion is evident. 21.Truth is not a path, but a Stillness, a passivity not realized through concepts; concepts are derived and inferred from perception, perception validates only illusion, not Truth. 22.there is nothing to discover, but only to uncover, positive and negative do not exist outside intellect; all situations are neutral and impersonal, in CauselessNowness the Ultimate Teaching becomes clear. 23.Perception sees itself as the center of the universe blindly seeking a complete unification with separation; identification with the universe is an attachment to the dream. 24.Divested cogitation can gaze upon the Original Thought, divesting useless suffering invites Peace, divesting useless happiness welcomes Love; fear clings to past as hope clings to future. 25.The nature of a river meanders, reposes, curves and winds, yet because Nowness is believed to be useless, predisposition demands that the current follow you, instead of you flow-ing with it, through that behavior, fulfillment remains elusive. 26.Triggering transformational experience is not difficult; Connected Breathing, when activated, can jump-start an atrophied thymus, Fixed Gazes, with auric vision, can open time to be seen as one, holding the tongue still, can bring Stillnes to thought. 27.Through unfeigned surrender, HeartLight itself, resplendently springs its metanoia; clear rapture coalesces from tranquility and insight, a continuum of awakenings dawn real Compassion, thus Birthing Human Beingness; Ascension is merely the Letting Go of the descension. 28.Then gaining long-life and eternal youth, waxing like the moon, Radiant and clear, with the strength of a lion, You will quickly gain mundane power and supreme enlightenment. May this Ultimate Teaching, Remain in the hearts of fortunate beings. Tilopa (translate by VMarco, 1997)

Caterpillars often philosophize about Butterflies. "... but at the end of the day you're either a caterpillar or a butterfly, and the only way anyone will ever have even the slightest sense of what it means to be a butterfly is to become one. There are no butterfly experts among the caterpillars, despite innumerable claims to the contrary" Jed McKenna You will find though that if you meet a butterfly, they will not fit any of the preconceptions that many people have about them. 　 To become a butterfly,...all that is a caterpillar,...all beliefs, hopes, dreams,...must die. It is amazing how caterpillars attempt to define what a butterfly is,...as if one can become the other,...or even imagine such. But yet, we live in a world where butterflies are defined by caterpillars. The truth of butterflies is this,...they are awake,...and do not untransform back to caterpillars. For many, real butterflies are caterpillars arch enemy,...for the butterfly exists beyond the dream of beliefs. To be a butterfly, everything caterpillar must die. You cannot bring your caterpillarness along,...just as one cannot bring beliefs into the heart of essence.

First, to say the soul doesn't exist is generally coming from the idea that nothing exists in a permanent way, but even that doesn't say things don't exist, just that they are constantly changing. You exist in your dream even thought the dream is false. The fear you feel in a dream is real even though the dream is false. Once you realize you are dreaming these things might disappear, but this debate is out of place in the current discussion, I think. Second, "soul" is an English word and can mean a dozen different things from other traditions which are all different. The question here was not so much about those things. So what is the "soul" in question that one is to get in touch with by art, music, etc.? I can say from experience, that after a good music session, it's like being re-situated on an internal compass. Playing music can you through some intense feelings while you are still "the observer", the musician who is playing them. It can make you more comfortable with everything that goes on inside as you have rode the highs and the lows and know the difference between the highs, the lows, and YOU, the musician playing the guitar or drums or whatever. If you get too far into them you will not be playing anymore, so you learn how to ride them without getting yourself lost in them. When you can do this, it is easier to know "that is feeling, this is me," as one way of looking at it. This is "soul" as it is the actor, and it is authentic. It knows the difference. It knows where it is inside the feelings, memories, plans, obligations, etc.. When you go dancing or do anything that leaves you with this, you know where you are and you know where you're coming from, you're are getting in touch with the "soul."

Skies clear revealing Namcha Barwa (25,436'), to the far left on the Indian continent and Gyala Peri (23,891'), to the far right on the Asian continent. Only approximately 12 miles apart, the world's deepest gorge (17,758') lies between these two great mountains. The formidable Dorje Bragsen (pron. Droksen - drok = rock) mountain (12,818'), stands guard in the middle ground protecting the entrance into this most elusive and sacred "Inner Gorge". (This is the first photograph ever taken of these geologic formations from this eastern direction.) Studying possible ascent routes up the guardian mountain Dorje Bragsen (left) - Gyala Peri (23,891') - (center) stands luminous above the unrevealed "Inner Gorge". Swallowed in the clouds trying to locate the elusive route into the hidden "Inner Gorge". The Buddhist Shaman had his dream. The Westerners can be taken up and over the sacred guardian protector mountain - Dorje Bragsen. The beginning of our climb - note the expedition, dwarfed in the bottom left of the photograph. the steep and treacherous ascent up the sacred guardian protector mountain - Dorje Bragsen (12,818') Troy Gillenwater and the Buddhist hunter from the clouds scout possible descent routes from the top of Dorje Bragsen - gateway to the "Inner Gorge". Skies uncharacteristicaly clear. Matuk and the first Buddhist hunter "guide" (who materialized from the mists) survey the countryside.

Hi Friend, I completely agree that it is possible to have "material effects" on existence. Also, Qi does definitely effect people even if they don't notice it. My point was only that for conscious awareness of external energy "contact", i have found that the person needs to be Qi sensitive. I have noticed that the "contact" is often registered on a subconscious basis (even if they are not sensitive) and it sometimes shows up in a vivid dream. Best, Jeff

idk how i feel about every dream being an astral travel if that is what you are getting at...

Oh what could it mean? The joker of last night's dream? I AM the Batman!

green, purple joker popped up in my dream - it seems Oh, what could it mean?

I can say when i was practicing something similar to what you talk about i also have a little of those neigong energy etc things spontaneously realise as well as powerful things happening at night when im sleeping/wake, but when its all over i cant tell what happened. (not a dream or obe). But i didn't think that it was enough, and some sort of practice is needed to fully open the physical body and its energy as well as meditation practice to purify the mind, getting rid of conditoinings even after seeing essence. I know this is described in the books but what you're saying is that there is no need to do any practices to achieve this aim. Sorry but i am curious, would you mind telling us more about the neigong capacities and capabilities that have occured because of your practice? Youve been doing this since the late 80s so basically your body's energy channels are all open, your whole body purified and healed of anything without having to practice any formal qigong/ neigong skill? Through this have you also spontaneously realised the true meaning of the I Ching and learnt to feel the energies of the trigrams? And have you already achieved the birth of the immortal fetus, or the pure yang body outside the body through self refinments in everyday ordinary situations? The texts say that it happens when all of the mundane is gone. If you haven't achieved this, are you aware of your progress toward this aim from the changes in your mind and spirit? When does one really achieve immortality from all this?

turtle shell a bro-nee? i doubt it but will look forward to his return and response. me nope but i am not fiercely anti-pony i am just fiercely anti-horse stance. i do appreciate the the postings of the alledged el hefe of the pony mafia tho. we cant forget cat pillar, i think he is solidly in the pony mafia. pink ponies are not hard and edgy enuff for my taste, but it takes all types to make up the Great Tao, and i do not judge. but i look at zen nomad as being hard and edgy, so who knows. bro-nee on and keep dreaming of pink prancing ponies. i dream of baguazhang mostly edit> wanted to add hard and edgy for balance http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCjxZHGHL4Y

It appears that you were neither wrong nor right, SB, for are we, each of us, not mere expedience as well, each dependent on root and contributing circumstance, that is, until complete realization is reached? As Thinley Norbu said, mushrooms dont suddenly spring up in meadows. Due to various conditions and seasonal play, they, of course, become mushrooms, so, when we eat mushrooms, we are actually eating the conditions which has come together through space and time. Same goes with hearing and so on. Conditions, all. Fixating on the manifestations by labels and names is where stuckness occur, hence grasping takes shape and form. It is said in The Jewel Treasure of the Dharmadatu: This is called the self-manifestation of enlightened mind. Its unobstructed emanation can occur as anything, With concept and without concept, as the existent phenomena of outer elements and inner beings, Including all varied phenomena. Even as all these arise, they naturally do not exist substantially. There is no such thing - there is not any permanent material nature. Just like the water of a mirage, a dream, an echo, Miraculous emanation, the reflection of form, a town of gandharvas, and the illusion of the eyes. It is simply appearing. While it is appearing, There is no base, there is no substance; just recognize it as only sudden temporary appearances arising from time to time. It must be realized that phenomena are not always, but occasional.

Yes, they "seem" real. So does the boogiman under the bed. Likewise the gods in a person's thoughts. I actually did have a dream last night. No Idea what brought it on. But when I woke I knew it was but a dream therfore no worries. Yes, chairs appear to be real. But I promise you, if you try sitting in an imaginary chair your ass will hit the floor.

Sure,...that's easily agreed upon,...Wisdom is the judicious application of knowledge. However, there is absolutely nothing in that statement that can lead to waking up,...save the understanding that it is dream talk, to sustain the dream.

The point is that you cannot claim 'my chair is real' because dream-chairs also seem real. http://thetaobums.com/topic/26462-being-a-realist-buddhist-definition-is-not-good/

i guess we merely distingush "dreams" differently sicne i consider every present now-ness moment a dream... maybe?

just cuz you dont recall your dreams doesnt mean you DONt dream. even if you simply witness an unconscious state of void and nothingness, it is still part of the dreamstate

Nope. I don't dream. I wake without worries too.

It's also called the hundred syllable mantra. http://www.lamayeshe.com/index.php?sect=article&id=394 In Tibetan Buddhism, its one of the 4 preliminary practices used to purify oneself before going on to the next stage of enlightenment. It is said that after one chants the mantra 100,000 times, ones negative karma will be removed. My experience with the mantra so far, is having a dream with light appearing from the clouds shining down on all sentient beings. I was wondering about other's experiences as well.