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Exists within your perception, yes. Like everything in my room right now exists for me. What More_Pie_Guy is saying is more on the quantum mechanics level...I think. We perceive it to be real but we are merely just a dream in some other mind that we're stuck inside.

ok, like years ago id be trying to go to sleep and would get stuck in paralasys to where i cant move ..my body was sleep but my mind would still be awake. GOOGLE OBE if you dont know what im talking about.... well as i started to look up info on these things that were happening and decided leaving my body was out of the question...but i always secretly wanted to try, then some some years ago when i met my SIFU Djhuiti, 13th disciple . he told me i shouldnt try because its like a drug and i would get addicted to going and would neglect my duty here on earth... well years pass and im still wondering if i should try and if i do what are the techniques to induce a OBE, with out drugs of course. and is it dangerous? from what i heard im just not suppose to trust any spirits i meet. what is every ones elses opinion, any of you guys tryed it? and the differents between now and then is that back then i was just starting out and didnt even know how to breath right...lol now i have strong energy cultivation skills and can lucid dream, and meditate with such focus. Ive been on a long training journy and lost contact with my sifu...im not even aloud to contact him till i finish my training, which im almost done with, then hes suppose to teach me more advance tech.

The title of the book, Buddahood without Meditation, I assume is referring to the vajra aspect of transcending the physical aspect of understanding....is he referring to the phenomena where the enlightenment is instantaneous and not as a partial result of the clearing-the-mind skills obtained by years of meditation? Is this what you got from it? Referring to pg. xxiii of the Introduction, this would seem to be the case. He writes: The most special approach, the most secret of secret paths, is the swift path of utter lucidity, the vajra pinnacle. Untainted by considerations of good or bad, timeless awareness is the naked union of awareness and emptiness, atemporal in its original purity. This is the inherently and fundamentally unconditioned natue of mind itself, the enlightened intent of kuntuzangzo, free of elaboration. This secret key point of view became completely evident to Dudjom Lingpa. I'm not greatly attuned to the Buddhist structure, but certainly this corresponds with being in step with the Tao; untainted by considerations of good or bad, timeless. This writing seems to be the result of a great experience the author had with a vision, a dream, an encounter with immortals. When people speak of the "short path" on the forums, do you think this is the phenomena they speak of? An instantaneous awareness of utter lucidity that remains with us? I look forward to hearing your thoughts, Steve...

I took cold showers first up in the morning. I do not recommend ice cold showers before going to bed. Cold showers pretty much got me pumped up and readya to conquer the world. Not exactly the feeling you would want before you wind down and go to bed, but may be 4-5 hours before your bedtime might be a good idea. Personally, I used to get wet dreams every 10 days last year when I was abstaining. This year when I went on a 90 day abstinence, my frequency increased from every 10 days to every 14 days and after a month (that is 2nd wet dream) I stopped having them. So yeah, give cold showers a try. In my experience it helped immensely.

A curious synchronicity: It turns out that last night, while I was reading and posting on these subjects, my girlfriend had a dream in which first I "unloaded" a milkshake's worth of the sacred protein (oops, sorry Mantak!), and then afterwards, she went off like a geyser. It's a bit of a freaky co-ink-i-dink 'cause we hadn't seen each other for a few days, and we hadn't talked about these "explosive" subjects for awhile, though we're both very interested. In fact, as she told me about her dream today it sounded like her enthusiasm to explore further is even greater than mine now (as I'm trying to avoid being so goal-oriented and just enjoy the journey). I'll take this as a portent for bigger and wetter things!

Custodial rulers knew that they needed to keep spiritual beings permanently attached to human bodies in order to animate those bodies and make them intelligent enough to perform their labors: In the clay God [a spiritual entity] and Man [physical body of Homo sapiens] shall be bound, to a unity brought together; So that to the end of days the Flesh and the Soul which in a God have ripened— that Soul in a blood-kinship be bound. 6 The tablets are silent about which “personalities” were chosen to animate the new slave bodies. Based upon how things are done in human society, we might guess that the Custodial society used criminals, deviates, prisoners of war, detested social and racial groups, nonconformists, and other undesirables to obtain the spiritual beings it needed to animate the new slave race of Earth. Humans were certainly treated like convicts sentenced to hard labor: With picks and spades they [human beings] built the shrines, They built the big canal banks. For food for the peoples, for the sustenance of [the Gods]. 7 As beasts of burden, humans were brutally treated by their extraterrestrial masters. The clay tablets tell of vast and catastrophic cruelty perpetrated by the Custodians against their human servants. Cold-blooded population control measures were carried out frequently: Twelve hundred years had not yet passed When the land extended and the peoples multiplied. The land was bellowing like a bull, The God got disturbed with their uproar. Enlil [half-brother and rival of Ea] heard their noise* And addressed the great Gods, “The noise of mankind has become too intense for me, With their uproar I am deprived of sleep. Cut off supplies for the peoples, Let there be a scarcity of plant-life to satisfy their hunger. Adad [another Custodian] should withhold his rain, And below, the flood [the regular flooding of the land which made it fertile] should not come up from the abyss. Let the wind blow and parch the ground, Let the clouds thicken but not release a downpour, Let the fields diminish their yields, There must be no rejoicing among them.” * * These lines suggest that Enlil had lived more than 1200 years. A similar longevity is attributed to Ea and other Custodial rulers. Many people find it difficult to believe that any creature, including an extraterrestrial, could live that long. The surprising longevity attributed to Custodial rulers may perhaps be explained by Sumerian spiritual beliefs. The Sumerians believed that a “personality” (spiritual being) survives the death of a physical body and that it is possible to identify the “personality” after it has abandoned one body and taken on a new one (in the same way that one can identify a driver who jumps out of one automobile and climbs into another). A “personality” could therefore hold the same political or social position body after body, as long as the “personality” could be identified. When Sumerians gave Custodians an extensive longevity, they were not necessarily suggesting that a single Custodial body survived for centuries; in many cases they appear to have been saying that a Custodial “personality” held a political position for a very long time even though it may have done so through a succession of bodies. An Assyrian tablet adds: “Command that there be a plague, Let Namtar diminish their noise. Let disease, sickness, plague and pestilence Blow upon them like a tornado.” They commanded and there was plague Namtar diminished their noise. Disease, sickness, plague and pestilence Blew upon them like a tornado.9 The tablets describe ghastly conditions in which food supplies were cut off, in which diseases were laid upon the people that constricted wombs and prevented childbirth, and in which starvation became so rampant that human beings were forced to resort to cannibalism. Lesser diseases, such as one resembling influenza, were also visited upon Homo sapiens, suggesting that the Custodial “Gods” understood and engaged in biological warfare. When this genocide did not produce a sufficient drop in the human population, the Custodians resumed it. Eventually, a decision was made to destroy the human race entirely with a great flood. Many archaeologists today believe that there was a cataclysmic flood in the Near East thousands of years ago. One description of the “Great Flood” is found in the Babylonian ”Epic of Gilgamesh,” which predates the Bible. According to the Epic, a Babylonian named Utnapishtim was approached by Prince Ea, who opposed the decision to destroy his creation, Homo sapiens. Ea told Utnapishtim that the other “Gods” planned to cause a deluge to wipe out the human race. Ea, who is described in other writings as a master shipbuilder and sailor, gave Utnapishtim instructions on how to build a boat which could survive the flood. Utnapishtim followed Ea’s directions and, with the help of friends, completed the vessel before the flooding began. Utnapishtim then loaded the boat with his gold, family, and livestock, along with craftsmen and wild animals, and hoisted off to sea. Babylonian and Assyrian tablets relate that just prior to flooding the land, the Custodians scorched it with flame. Then they flooded the region by causing a long rainstorm and by breaking the intricate system of dams and dikes that had been built in Mesopotamia to control the erratic flooding of the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. The Gilgamesh Epic relates that Utnapishtim and his crew survived the ordeal. When it was over, they sought out dry land by releasing a series of three birds; if a bird did not return to the boat, Utnapishtim would know that it had found dry land nearby on which to alight. Once back on solid ground, Utnapishtim was joined by several Custodians returning from out of the sky. Instead of destroying the survivors, a degree of leniency prevailed and the Custodians transported the surviving humans to another region to live. The tale of Utnapishtim should ring a bell with anyone who is familiar with the Biblical story of Noah and the Ark. That is because the tale of Noah, lace many other stories in the Old Testament, is taken from older Mesopotamian writings. Biblical authors simply altered names and changed the many “Gods” of the original writings into the one “God” or “Lord” of the Hebrew religion. The latter change was an unfortunate one because it caused a Supreme Being to be blamed for the brutal acts that earner writers had attributed to the very God-like Custodians. Early Mesopotamian writings gave us another famous Old Testament story: the tale of Adam and Eve. The Adam and Eve narrative is also derived from earlier Mesopotamian sources which described life under the Custodial “Gods.” The “God" or “Lord God" of the Bible’s Adam and Eve story can therefore be translated to mean the Custodial rulers of Earth. The story of Adam and Eve is unique in that it is entirely symbolic, and through its symbols it provides an intriguing account of early human history. According to the Bible, Adam, who symbolizes first man, was created by “God" from the “dust of the ground.” This idea reflects the older Mesopotamian belief that Homo sapiens was created partially from “clay.” Adam’s wife, Eve, was also created artificially. They both lived in an abundant paradise known as the Garden of Eden. Modern versions of the Bible place the Garden of Eden in the Tigris-Euphrates region of Mesopotamia. The Old Testament tells us that Adam (first man) was designed to be a servant. His function was to till the soil and to care for the lush gardens and crops owned by his “God.” As long as Adam and Eve accepted their servant status and obeyed their ever-present masters, all of their physical needs would be met and they would be permitted to remain in their “paradise” indefinitely. There was, however, one unpardonable sin that they must never commit. They must never attempt to seek certain types of knowledge. Those forbidden forms of knowledge are symbolized in the story as two trees: the “tree of knowledge of good and evil” and the “tree of life.” The first “tree” symbolizes an understanding of ethics and justice. The second “tree” symbolizes the knowledge of how to regain and retain one’s spiritual identity and immortality. Adam and Eve obeyed the commandments of their masters and lived in material bliss until another party entered the scene. The intervening party was symbolized in the story as a snake. The serpent convinced Eve to partake of the “fruit” * from the “tree of knowledge of good and evil.” Eve followed the serpent’s suggestion, as did Adam. “God" (i.e., Custodial leadership) became immediately alarmed: And the Lord’ God said. Look, the man has become as one of us, knowing good from evil: and now, what if he puts forth his hand, and takes also of the tree of life, and eats, and lives forever? GENESIS 3:22 * This fruit is usually portrayed as an apple, but that is the invention of later artists. The Bible itself does not mention a specific fruit because the “fruit” was only a symbol to represent knowledge. The above passage reveals an important truth echoed by many religions. A true understanding of ethics, integrity, and justice is a prerequisite to regaining one’s spiritual freedom and immortality. Without a foundation in ethics, full spiritual recovery becomes nothing more than a pipe dream. The Custodians clearly did not want mankind to begin traveling the road to spiritual recovery. The reason is obvious. The Custodial society wanted slaves. It is difficult to make thralls of people who maintain their integrity and sense of ethics. It becomes impossible when those same individuals are uncowed by physical threats due to a reawakened grasp of their spiritual immortality. Most importantly, if spiritual beings could no longer be trapped in human bodies, but could instead use and abandon bodies at will, there would be no spiritual beings available to animate slave bodies.

This is the email he sent me back in March: Hello, Please forgive me for responding so late. I've been suffering from prostate cancer and just recently have been defeating it...and feeling much better, enough in fact to begin trying to catch up with all my late emails to everyone. You have to understand that the books were written about John were basically about our "adventures" with him, not instructional books. I teach Mo Pai's nai gong and have many students...if you are interested. I will give you my 3 requirements at the end of the email. In our system of nai gong you will receive "2" sensations (that everyone has) during the 1st level. The second level lets me know that you are ready for the 2nd level. But both signs/sensations will confirm that you are in fact accumulating yin and yang energy. About the pebble. If it only happened once, and you can't do it again, then there is a good chance you didn't do it. When I hear of these things there may be something that I need to "gently" discuss with you and try and not alarm you at the same time. Usually, things like this are the result of a spirit. This type of behavior is something that is somewhat common with people generating yin energy. Spirits are attracted to yin energy. What I try and do to offset this is have the practitioner say a prayer before they begin their daily training to God...for protection. Using his son's name is more powerful than just using God's name if that matters to you and don't want the spirit to return again. I can tell you this, when an event like something being thrown as it did in your house, usually it only happens once. There may be something else that may occur sometime, but it normally won't be the same thing happen twice...unless of course there is a very powerful spirit in your house. But that doesn't seem to be the case with you. Also, when people seek to find out about spirits and want things to occur over and over, it is like an invitation to them and you don't want that. Here are my three requirements for those who wish to learn Mo Pai's nai gong: 1st, I ask for a short bio on your life, I want to know who you are. This helps me get to know you more quickly...it also helps me when working with your training. 2nd, I require $300. I had to institute this because people have taken the ancient and privileged knowledge/training of the Mo Pai from me and then disappeared. This fee seems to work safeguarding, to some degree, the Mo Pai's training system. Those that want to "steal" this knowledge usually don't want to spend any money so they don't get involved at this point. And plus, I didn't want to make the amount too much, but just enough to foil thieves. It is the best I can come up with to keep Mo Pai's training in the control of my responsibility. This is a one-time fee, I ask for nothing more. 3rd, I ask for a promise from you that you will NOT speak/talk/communicate anything concerning me or the Mo Pai or Mo Pai's training on the Internet. I don’t want to burn any bridges with my teacher. That is basically all there is. Should you decide to continue...I will give you my phone number in case you would want to talk to me directly: (removed his number)...I am two hours behind East Coast time. I am finding that helping people train has become almost a burden at this point, as more and more people seek me for training. It will not be too long before I discontinue allowing other people to become students; I will however continue training those I am currently working with. Again, thank you for contacting me. I know how you must feel...I was there once myself, which is why I want to help others find their path/dream. Jim -------- That's the last I heard from him. I never sent him the money, that's probably why.

I celebrated prematurely. I thought the painful part was over. I was wrong. The more painful part was about to begin. Since the first connection, the rest of body wanted to be connected. I didn't realize there were so many kinks, pain points and dead zones in my upper body. I did a period of agressive clean up. I did three to four hours of various movement, stretch/twist, self-massage before bed. The next morning, the stretch out body parts shrinked a little. The bonea, tendons and ligaments were in wrong places. The nerves were pinched every where. It was painful. Sometimes, the pain woke me up during sleep. Once I was woken by weeping noise, I realized it was my body crying. What a wimp! I kept going. My body finally got enough. It came in my dream to pleading with me. It showed up in a bloddy mess, the shoulder was torn open with intruding bones. I eased up a few days. I feel much better now. I wake up in morning without too much pain. With the improvement, I can enjoy something that you normal flexible guys take for granted: drop shoulder, round chest, connect tan tien to Laogong. No more chips on my shoulder.

a few thoughts. the fewer your wants/desires, the freer you are. the more risk & uncertainty you're willing to accept, the freer you are. the cheaper you can live, the greater your options. the creative mind can generate streams of income that minimize or even eliminates the need for employment (especially if you have the above points handled) i live in Northern Sacramento, but my day-to-day experience is not one of "life in the city." i am able to devote as much time as i like to my studies, explorations, and practices. i made a decision years ago about what matters most to me in life and what i can do without. getting clear on THAT is an important first step. i come across people all the time, some of whom frequent this site, who are in love with the "dream" of the spiritual life, but aren't really willing to risk their comforts. they want all the certainty, safety, and security that secular life promises them, and they don't want any of the burdensome trade-offs that come with acquiring those things. i put it all on the line. i walked away from from a top college. walked away from professional money. i essentially took a vow of poverty and embraced a radical uncertainty. but i was rich in what truly mattered to me, which is the free time to seek the divine and to explore the deep abyss of my own being (which wasn't always pretty). "time is NOT money. anything lost can be found again, EXCEPT for time wasted." i only worked enough to make rent and eat. rent was cheap and things didn't always go smoothly. yet my life became richer than it had ever been before because i knew what my priorities were, and i wasn't afraid of the uncertainty & insecurity of living a poor man's life. my only luxuries were my laptop (a hand-me-down gift) and my book addiction. spent my time reading, sitting, practicing forms, and mastering the principles upon which those forms were built. spent my time wandering in deep contemplation, and seeking the audience of different masters. today i don't work a wage job of any kind. i live in a 4-bedroom house that was given to me by one of my students. my living room is one big practice space, and i've got a huge back yard for practice and for gardening. i had NO IDEA things would work out this way. i sought my life of the spirit with a very sincere reckless abandon, knowing that this life isn't worth living if i don't seek the divine to the fullest. getting free of the bullshit is relatively easy. getting over ones own fear and neurosis is the hard part. perhaps it was the hardships of my youth that gave me the courage to do what i did to get where i am. i grew up very poor and was even homeless for a time as a child. so none of that really scared me as an adult, since i've already endured those things at a much more vulnerable stage in my life. the one part that was difficult was letting go of the worldly pursuits in academia. i had made it from nothing to the brass ring as an intellectual. i was being offered "advances" on books & critical essays, and i had the respect of professors, doctors, politicians, and lawyers. i almost traded GOD for the trappings of that world. maybe some people could have found a balance between the two worlds, but i could not. i'm a very intense person by nature, and such a compromise is incongruent with my very being. so i had to make a choice. and i made it. i was honestly, in my heart of hearts, willing to sacrifice everything to follow my Truth. ALL IN.

From the subtle view all appears as if a dream Even this is false

It doesn't read right to me. Feels made up. Nobody writes 'We Jews & Church Leaders(church?) know X'. That's how a racist writes about a group they know shit about. Kinda like the KKK finding a documents that says 'We Blacks have decided to X' or We Catholics have decided to take over America by running Kennedy for President'. It written like a wet dream from people who are trying to sell an agenda to bigots. Simply put, nobody writes in that style. It's clearly made up from sentence one. The language feels wrong, too modern. Jews were considered a crazy backwards people by most Romans, common and elite. First thing you need to do is cut off a piece of your penis, is simply not a selling point, nor is a couple hundred pages of rules and regulations. Simply put, with Christianity you get heaven, murky but decent theology, and 1/100 the rules. There was no threat of mass proselytization with Judaism. There was no We Jews back then, there were denominations, a few main ones, and dozens of smaller off shoots. Herod destroyed the Sanhedrin, shattering its validity. Jews remember the Pharisees far more kindly then Christians, but it was mixed bag depending on who and when. I think there was a 'Jesus'/Yeshua/Joshua. There may have been a dozen of them, radicals caught in a dangerous turbulent very superstitious time. He was probably a mystic and faith healer. Older myths got tied to his name, in the usual way 'telephone' is played. Then massively once it became institutionalized and you needed to prove your god is bigger and better then other gods. Certainly once Constantine got involved it became a method of control. At its earliest, not so much, it could have gone a different way if other gospels and sects had emerged as number one. There are pivot points in history that are easy to miss, but often the scales are weighted so evenly only a few key people are the fulcrum by which mighty stream of history is led. I don't think Piso was one of those.

When touching the tip of my tongue to the roof of my mouth and doing energy work there is a notable burning sensation that increases in intensity felt on the tip of my tongue. I understand that during meditation one should put the tongue tip against the soft pallet and lightly touch the teeth together. The soft palate is toward the back of the mouth, so there is definite stretch in the bottom of the tongue. I do feel that my jaws tend to tense up due to the teeth having to touch, which has the purpose (I believe) of bringing the tongue further up toward the back of the mouth, and that in itself the teeth touching doesn't really do anything metaphysically speaking. I understand that touching the tongue to the mouth roof closes the energy circuit of the body and allows for complete energy circulation, but is it always good to keep the tongue in that position? I am a beginner at meditation, and I think I can start feeling my jing moving as heat flashes across the skin, especially the skin of my torso and especially around the lower dan tien area. My tongue has always burned when touching the top palate, after some minutes in meditation, even after severe and constant jing depletion. The funny thing is that usually after jing depletion my dream life becomes notably more vivid.

Going for myths, miracles & powers. Not any more. Maybe its a Buddhist thing, but the longer I'm in the game, the more my goal is inner peace, some longevity, feeling oneness. For me, Taoism is about being closer to true nature; following its rules. Immortality and strangeness's like psychic powers aren't on the list, though dream work..lucidity/astral travel is.. so I guess I have a little of the bug in me after all.

within this labyrinthian ruins of the mind doth i create the fabrics of eternity casting shadows across each drape and fold darting forth, here and there seeking that which was never lost frantically, i hurried on my way. one morning as i lay half asleep a dream did i have of worlds so vast unfathomable thru lifetimes suddenly i awoke with a start i realized the discontent which plagued me day upon grueling day and crimsoned nights of high revelry this eternal search was no more than nought and, from that moment on i search no more.

I want to second what Lloyd said about not wanting to disconnect from doing Flying Phoenix. That describes it so well. I had that feeling and attitude from the first week that I learned the first few meditations and it is has never gone away. It is one of the main motivators making me think about wanting to retire this coming January when I am eligible for full Social Security benefits. I think of how much extra time I would have to do more chi kung. Most guys dream of retiring to play golf, now we have guys thinking of retiring just to get in more chi kung time. How the world is changing! Not wanting to disconnect from the experience is similar to what I am going thru with a new girlfriend. I just don't want to have to leave her on weekends to go back home, the disconnect from an experience that is so compelling and charming. That is Flying Phoenix Chi Kung. And I compare this to some of the other chi kung methods that I had tried for awhile before Flying Phoenix. Some were just outright torturous holding some uncomfortable positions in static postures for so long. That caused some breakups, LOL!

I would like to know what is the difference between polarity and duality? I once had a Straneglove-ian dream that loosely hinted that one can destroy almost anything in this world by shooting against its primary salt. And the best armour of defense is to keep your opposite salt in front. I don't really know what that means... but I guess that somehow it made sense to speak of it here.

Someone asked: Where do the gurus get this idea that because we are temporal, we are not real? I answered based on what I have experienced to be true: That is a misunderstanding of the meaning and a misrepresentation of the truth by unskilled teachers. When the Buddha (and many before him) said that all is illusion, they did not mean that the world is not real. Rather, they were pointing out that the world simply IS and all phenomena exist absolutely. However, because we perceive them through the 6th consciousness we warp the true appearance of absolute reality before it even has the chance to reach our mind unobstructed. Just like a prism refracting one beam of light into the many colours of the rainbow. Thus we create a relative experience of reality subject to our own perception. You see, the goal is to perceive the beam of light in it's original state, before it is filtered through the prism and turns into Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Indigo and Violet. The many different colours are pretty, but some of us have impaired vision. Some see less red and more green, others more blue and less yellow, some see more orange but less red and there are those that are completely blind. This is why we all have a relative experience of what IS and this is also why two people may look at the same thing, but see two entirely different objects all together. Each will defend the opinion of their perception adamantly, claiming power and superior understanding over the other, when fundamentally both observers are interpreting a relative illusion and not the true nature of the object in the first place. Sort of like the blind leading the blind. Only where both parties are extremely stubborn. If we do away with the prism, which is an analogy for the ego-mind and acquired discriminating intellect, then we allow ourselves to perceive that one unifying all encompassing beam of primal light before it is distorted by our senses. This is the truth we all aspire to. This is the absolute goal of spiritual cultivation. The realization of reality. This is all meditation aims to achieve. When we sit to meditate it is important to always employ the Taoist concept of Wu Wei - Effortless Action. You see, the acquired ego-mind is like the surface of a lake. It is always active with thoughts, ideas and concepts and because of this it's surface remains turbulent and in a constant and unceasing rippling. One ripple bounces of the edge and creates many more. It is an avalanche effect and if we do not assume control of our mind, we will get buried under the snow and freeze, until someone pulls us out. This is the nature of our acquired ego-mind. It loves constant motion and activity. When the 5 senses perceive something, they immediately stir the heart and ideas and emotions are created. Thus, when we smell something, pleasant aromas bring about the desire to satisfy our olfactory stimulation and all manner of fantasies begin to formulate in our mind. When we taste something with our tongue, the desire to savour the many tastes arises and brings about fantasies of food and drink. We we hear a lovely sound, the desire for melodious music arises and brings about fantasies to prompt you to further satisfy it. When we see something beautiful, the desire to possess it arises and we dream up fantasies about how to obtain it. When we feel something with our skin, the desire to experience forms arises and we create fantasies about pleasuring the body. Like a skilful thief, the 5 senses thus steal the stillness from your mind and heart and replace it with many thoughts. Making you a slave to your own mental illusions and ideas. The acquired ego-mind loves motion and activity while the original mind thrives in stillness. If we constantly succumb to satisfying our senses we create the environment for thoughts, fantasies and ideas to thrive and the ego-mind will remain in constant motion. This is the domain of the acquired-mind. When we sit down to meditate and let our thoughts gradually disappear, we create stillness and facilitate the activity of our Tao-mind. In Taoism we aim to subside the activity of the acquired ego-mind and through that stillness, allow the Tao-mind to naturally emerge. The mind of the Tao, our original nature, is like the bright moon in the sky. It is always there. It has always been there. It will always be there, shining brightly with the light of all creation. It simply wants a surface off which to project. You may ask, but why does the moon have to reflect on the surface of the lake? Why can't we just look directly at it, to realize it? Is this not quicker and easier? This is a good question! The reason it is hard to directly look at the moon and realize it's presence is because in the first place, we can't make out if it the image is of the moon or not! When the surface of the lake is so rippled because of the motions and activities of thoughts in the mind, it can't reflect anything. All you see is a scrambled image. So how can you look directly at the moon if you don't know it's the moon you should be looking at? This is how the ego-mind tricks you. By keeping you in constant activity, it effectively never allows you to become still enough and in so doing, successfully obscures reality from you. Like a skilled trickster, it keeps you trapped in it's illusion and soon, you begin to believe it is real The Tao must be approached subtly and by skilful means. Through doing without doing. Time after time, as we meditate, the ripples on the surface of the lake begin to subside. Gradually the bright moon of our original Tao-mind will begin to show itself on the surface of the lake. Thus, when the mind is still, the lake will be serene and the water will resemble a polished mirror. The more the lake stills, the more apparent the reflection of the moon becomes. Until one day the ego-mind is so still, that not one thought arises, and the surface of the lake becomes as smooth as fine silk. Not a sound, not a motion. Only complete stillness. This is the awakening to reality. Like a reflective mirror polished through countless hours of meditation you finally realize the absolute image of the moon. For the first time ever, you see all it's fine details. It no longer looks like a wavy and indiscernible blob of white paint morphing about in the rhythm of the ripples and you finally realize, it is the moon. Without a doubt, you know it is the moon you are observing, reflecting on the surface of this calm lake. This is emptiness. This is realization. The realization of the reflection of the moon within you. But this is not the final goal. Why? Because we are still looking only at the reflection of the moon and not the actual moon! But you know what? It no longer matters. Because once you know, you know. Because once you are liberated from the illusion of the ego-mind, the only thing that is left to do is to but gently raise the gaze of the eyes from the lake to the sky in order to reveal the original heavenly nature of your mind. To look upon the very moon itself! To leap out of the motion, into the stillness and from beyond the stillness to leap into the absolute reality of the Tao. This is the practice of meditation. If we do not apply Wu Wei and simply allow the ripples on the surface of the lake of the mind to subside on their own. If we attempt to use our hand to calm the surface, we will simply cause even more ripples. Even if you use one finger! You will still cause a ripple! Even if you use a goose-feather, you will still cause a ripple. All it takes is one ripple to distort the reflection. Therefore, there must be no desire to achieve. For the desire to achieve is in itself a desire and a product of the ego-mind. Thus, Wu Wei employs doing without doing. Desiring without desiring. Working without working. Meditating without meditating! Achieving without achieving! As you release your mind from the desire to act. The ripples will turn to nothing and the bright moon of your original mind will reveal itself in all it's glory! Good luck in your meditation practice! : )

Our life is the image in the dream that Life is having just like these words describe something else Art is the image of our experiences So art is no less real than life

Damn 3bob! If I could answer that question definatively I would actually consider myself brilliant. But no, I can't answer it. That is because it will be different for each individual. Oftentime people wake up and still believe they are living their dream - not knowing if they are Sam or a butterfly. Yes, cause and effect. At basic level the movement of energy. But I know the ice cream in that other thread is now gone but the tree is still here.

MH, I see your description as being problematic in that one might then ask where does illusion begin and where does it end, along with such answers not being the same for all? For instance if one knows themselves as or has done shaman type journeys then I believe what is real and what is a dream is open or should be open to different understandings or interpretations as to what level of reality is effecting another level. (another example: nothing happens in the physical world without happening first in an energy world that drives it)

Hi all, First of all, I wouldn’t try to claim that I’m offering some kind of pure-bred Taoist product here. But I am saying that philosophical thought is relevant to the spiritual search, and I’m also saying that this makes it relevant to some Taoists. But we are on a Taoist site, and I hear what you are saying, so I will try and make sure that I relate what I’m saying to works like the Tao Te Ching. But to continue... We’ve talked a lot about notions like emptiness/heaven as it contrasts with the world of form/earth, and the importance of the ability to see things from either perspective. As with everything else, both perspectives are fully known to us already and to learn emptiness is not to learn anything new and exotic. But I can explain this further: Imagine you are looking at a tree. You close your ideas for 5 seconds, think about ice cream, and then open them again. We are looking at the tree again. We believe that the tree continued to exist, even while our eyes were closed and our attention was elsewhere, and that it is the same tree we return to. This is the belief in the world of form, of independently existing objects in a world outside of ourselves. Now imagine you are thinking of ice cream. You open your eyes and look at the tree for five seconds, and then return to your thoughts of ice cream. In this case we believe that the second thought of ice cream was a completely new thought, although on the same theme. The first thought ceased and became non-existent, was replaced by our awareness of the tree, which in turn was replaced by a new thought about ice cream. This is the belief in the world of emptiness, of ephemeral and transient flashes of consciousness that pass in a moment and are replaced by the next. Perceptions (of trees) and thoughts (of ice cream) both behave similarly as far as consciousness is concerned. Perceptions are constantly transforming as we look at the top of the tree, then the bottom, then the side – each view entirely unique. Thoughts too are constantly transforming, as they shift from chocolate ice cream to strawberry and then back again. In terms of behaviour, a thought and a perception are indistinguishable. They are both things that come and then in a flash are replaced. But for some reason we believe that a thought is empty of anything but the briefest existence, while a perception is a reflection of something objectively real – something unchanging that exists independently of our roving perceptions. This is the illusion that chains us to the world. This is the illusion that makes us believe that there is an inner subjective realm of thought, and an outer objective world of independently existing objects. Liberation come when we see that thoughts and perceptions are both the same. They are both the same by being just items of awareness. Things come and in a flash are transformed. When thoughts and perceptions are made the same, we are free to interchange how we understand them. A thought can be viewed as something ephemeral or as something eternal that passes in and out of awareness; a perception can be viewed as a reflection of something real, or as something dreamy like a thought. Our view of ourselves as individuals is entirely based on the belief in our own subjective experience- the realm of thought. But when we see that the outside world also passes before our ‘eyes’ as something ephemeral and transient we are no longer able to believe in the distinction between object and subject. Who we actually are seems to contain both thoughts and perceptions and by being neither transcends both. Just as the mug handle is neither left nor right, but in a sense both, and by being so, neither…so are we both subject and object, and therefore neither subject nor object. Just as it takes a certain spiritual vision to be able to see that the handle might also be on the other side, so too does it take a certain vision to be able to see that thoughts pass into awareness and transform, just as perceptions come into awareness and are constantly transforming. This is the hard problem of spiritual philosophy. We do not realise we’re doing it, but we are constantly living through our beliefs. We believe that we are subjects in an objective world, and that belief shapes everything we do and think before we can do anything about it. We live blindly and we are so blind that we don’t realise that there is an alternative way to see things. It is only when we first truly see that we are not our thoughts or our perceptions that we are free and are circumstances can improve. This is a fundamental and crucial spiritual vision that is emphasised in all religious traditions. Jesus tells us in the Gospel of St Thomas “When you make the two one, and when you make the inside as the outside, and the outside as the inside…then shall you enter the kingdom” Buddha advises us in the Diamond Sutra: “Thus shall ye think of all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream; A flash of lightning in a summer cloud, A flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream” And in everybody’s favourite the Tao Te Ching we are told immediately in Ch 1 to see the Tao equally, whether in thought or perception “So, as ever hidden, we should look at the inner aspect/ As always manifest, we should look at the outer aspects/ These two flow from the same source though differently named” Until we have seen how the subjective world and the objective world are from a common source, the notion The Tao, God - cannot possibly occur to us. I’ve treated this subject pretty briefly considering its importance but it might be a good time to stop and make sure that I’ve been able to make myself understood. Best wishes guys

You mention meditating on death and where to start. There's a Vispassana style 'theme' I sometimes use before sitting in emptiness. I am not my body. I am that which inhabit it. I am not my thoughts. They are like clouds passing through the sky. I am not my emotions. I acknowledge them and let them pass like ripples on a pond. I am not my past. That is old memories and patterns I can repeat or not. I am not my future. That is only projections and fears. I am not my possessions I am not my family. .. .. I am breath and awareness. You mention the fear of the future that hits the young 20 something very hard. Life is long and takes us on winding roads. Get skills, dream.. some how things always work out in the end.

It appears that you are playing with a stacked deck. To continually quote only the framework of Buddhism as your authority doesn't cut the mustard. The unenlightened Christians here in the Midwest (I seem to have landed right in the middle of the bible belt pocket when we moved here 5 years ago) will continually quote the bible to prove their point, their point being "only through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior can you reach salvation". What makes your structure any better than that of the Islamist, the Christian, the shamanic path? They all are sure they have the answer too. My personal experience (which is the only lens I can see through) is that by understanding and transcending the structure of any of the religious paths, one can see the communal overlay of the essence of Love, Forgiveness, developing a heart of kindness and mercy, and the consciousness that We are the Creator. This overlay will bring us closer to enlightenment than tightly grasping onto any of the cages. I'm pretty sure that a dream I had last night directly relates to this lengthy discussion we've been having on this thread. I dreamt that there were divers diving down into the water attaching explosives to certain things under the water and blowing them up. Obviously the water is symbolic for the subconscious and our own personal dives down into it to remove that which needs to be removed for clarity. After several explosions, there was one huge fireball of an explosion that went up into the sky. We (I had the impression that it was all of us Bums) were all sitting together in this restaurant across the street from the lake and we were all watching the fireball go up. The funny thing is that there was a path leading from the lake to the restaurant, ending at the restaurant. The path was paved by strips of duct tape, of all things. If you think of what duct tape does, it patches things together, binds that which needs binding. Is this not symbolic of separate paths finding the point of unity, the restaurant in which we all sat? I'm coming to the understanding that our dreams are the face of our Original Nature giving us clues as to what needs to be done for total liberation. Love you, Alwayson. You have been a mighty catalyst for a fabulous discussion. This thread is no accident, despite the fact that it started in The Pit as a conversation between two people about Buddahood Without Meditation and dzogchen. We just wanted to avoid the occasional drive-by shooting, and yet it is the drive-by's that have made this a tremendously lively and informative thread.

I was thinking of Ösel (tib. hod-gsal; 'od gsal), the Yoga of the Clear Light (often translated as 'Radiant Light' (Sanskrit: prabhasvara), referring to the 'intrinsic purity' (Tibetan: ka-dag) of the substratum of the 'mindstream' (Tibetan: sems-rgyud) is a sadhana found in Vajrayana and Bön centered on the state of luminous clarity. Many versions, derivatives and accretions of the sadhana are extant. Ösel is generally included amongst the Six Yogas of Naropa and its sister tradition the Six Yogas of Niguma. Ösel is also an experience of 'rigpa' the 'reflexive apperception' (Sanskrit: Svasaṃvedana, Wylie: rang rig pa) of the mindstream. In a key scholarly collaborative Nyingmapa translation work published in 2005, furthermore notable as the first complete rendering of the Bardo Thodol into the English language from the Tibetan, this technical term was configured into English as "Inner Radiance".[1] Fremantle (2001: p.199) states: Luminosity is often translated as "clear light," which is a literal rendering of the Tibetan rather than the Sanskrit. Trungpa Rinpoche did not like that term, although he did sometimes use it in his talks, which form the basis of his books, because it is so well known. He felt it had become inextricably associated with such notions as the light at the end of the tunnel in near-death experiences, and that it gave too much of an impression of ordinary, visual light, whereas what is meant is an extremely subtle concept that he thought would be conveyed better by "luminosity."[2] The original Sanskrit term, prabhāsvara,[3] has been translated as "translucent"[4] and "luminous clarity."[5] In the tradition of Namkha'i, it is held that Ösel reveals the natural luminosity of emptiness, the 'true nature of Mind' (Sanskrit: cittatva).[citation needed] Ösel is taught as one part of the six yogas of Naropa. Keown, et al. (2003) identify the Ösel or "clear light", as that by which the natural luminosity (Five Pure Lights) of emptiness (Śūnyatā) is apprehended. [7] Berzin, in the Berzin Archives Glossary, identifies the "mental continuum" (Sanskrit: citta santana) as constituted by the "clear light awareness" which is his rendering of ‘od-gsal (Wylie). Berzin defines ‘od-gsal thus: The subtlest level of mental activity (Mind), which continues with no beginning and no end, without any break, even during death and even into Buddhahood. It is individual and constitutes the mental continuum of each Being. It is naturally free of conceptual cognition, the appearance-making of true existence, and grasping for true existence, since it is more subtle than the grosser levels of mental activity with which these occur. IT is named the Light. [8] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%96sel_%28yoga%29 /// I guess that would be maybe the closest explanation of it... Relation with Taoism? // Practice Mother and child luminosities A fundamental distinction in the Dzogchen literature of 'od gsal (Wylie) is that of 'inner radiance of the ground' (Wylie: gzhi'i 'od-gsal) and the 'inner radiance of the path' (Wylie: lam-gyi 'od-gsal); otherwise known as the mother and child luminosity respectively. Fremantle (2001: p.198-9) states: The luminosity experienced in meditation is called the path luminosity, simile luminosity, or child luminosity. The true luminosity of our awakened nature is called the basic luminosity or mother luminosity; it dawns at the moment of death, and if it is recognized, the mother and the child meet and become one in liberation.[10] Patrul Rinpoche et al. (1994: p.406) define 'Clear light of the moment of the ground' (Tibetan: gzhi dus kyi 'od gsal)' as the: >>>> ...nature of the mind of all beings, pure from the beginning and spontaneously luminous; fundamental continuum (of awareness), potential of Buddhahood...It can be "introduced" by a realized master to a disciple, who then stabilizes and develops that experience through the profound practices of the Great Perfection. Ordinary beings perceive it only for a flash at the moment of death.[11] For further discussion on the 'pointing out instruction' refer Esoteric transmission. Luminous liminalities Cuevas (2003: p.63) conveys how the luminosity is significantly associated with states, portals or continuums of 'liminality' (Sanskrit: antarabhāva) such as 'completion phase meditation': "...the far-ranging tantric concept of luminosity or clear light ('od-gsal) said to be experienced briefly by all human beings at the moment of death, by advanced yogic practitioners in the highest levels of the completion phase meditation, and unceasingly by all buddhas. Interestingly, this very subtle radiance is believed also to be experienced, though rarely noticed, in more mundane moments such as fainting, sneezing, and orgasm, as well as in the first instant before and after dreaming."[12] Dream[less]work The sadhana of Ösel may subsume elements of lucid, conscious sleep without dreams and therefore may be engaged as a complement of Milam and Gyulu. Practitioner will not lose consciousness on the onset of sleep/death, but awakens instantly into the Clear Light. This state is reachable and sustainable only for advanced meditators. hmm... // In my experience celibacy make this easier to achieve... It says though rarely noticed, in more mundane moments such as fainting, sneezing, and orgasm, So if one builds that orgasmic/sexual energy such things should become more tangible? Starting to link into "how to think about sex thread" ... http://thetaobums.com/topic/31050-wwhat-is-the-best-way-to-think-about-sex/page-2 Is this description of clear light lacking yang aspect?

The best way to eat the fruit is to plant the trees yourself. It takes work and a whole lot of patience though. Similarly the truth of the Matrix was life was hard, most people dressed in rags and worked fixing machines in Zion. In nature, animals and insects often beat us to the wonderful fruit, unless you work hard to protect it. Without cultivation (spiritual and physical) you don't get abundance. There's no free lunch, even in nature. Still you can go to places where its easier to accomplish, but don't expect it to be given without hard work. You want fruit, start planting then protect and wait. Berry bushes should start providing in as little 2 years. Time, patience and protecting. Here is a blog on people who've created there Dream. Cool blog on alternative lifestyles: http://www.messynessychic.com/2013/07/26/the-real-life-waterworld-project/