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In terms of practice, my own personal experience says that The Flight of the Garuda (that can be found or bought everywhere) is the best "separation and breakthrough" for western minds. The practice begins simple, asking things like: Where is your mind now? In you feet? In your penis? In your head? In your eyes? In your heart? What is the color of your mind? Black? Blue? White? Golden? If you mind is in your body, what happens when you die? Where will be your mind? You need to ask again and again until you perceive that mind is not from this realm of illusion, this world is just a dream. Then you can find that mind, in terms of this world adjectives, is empty. After these there are meditations for shape, budhahood meaning etc. With The Flight of the Garuda you can separate your sem from your rigpa, and discover that you are more than this. In other words: separation from the views, because everything is the same. But, if this is true: a killer has a naturally illuminated center? A raper has a rigpa center? If you purify from the 5 agregates using chakras or philosophy is an unnecessary debate, in one sense all the techniques are one and same technique in various forms until you find rigpa. But study and meditation are the keys.

I had a dream of a white bear leaning against this big old oak tree that was in the yard I grew up in. I went back to check that yard and the tree had recently been cut down. The white bear spirit symbolizes death in shamanic circumpolar cultures.

Hi CarsonZi Einstein's statement is not a refutation of the inadequacy of the mind. It is not a reason to abandon the mind as a limited tool... The mind is all we have. The mind has components to it and they all work in concert. Components like intuition, memory, imagination, analysis, reasoning... What Einstein was saying is that you still use the mind, just that you have to think outside of the box or use your mind differently. Einstein also said: You said: Er, well, yes it can, it does and you should appreciate it rather than abandoning it. You learn the methods of practice using your mind. You use your mind to learn how to stop the mind and go beyond. Without a mind, you could never learn how to go beyond the mind. Words are all we have. If someone hadn't told you about their experience of going beyond the mind, of stilling the mind, of experiencing samadhi, you wouldn't even know about it. Granted, words are limited by the consciousness that apprehends them, by the cultural influence and the capacity of the mentality, but words are all we have and we have to make the best use of them. Describing experiences of being beyond the thinking mind is not pointless. I've had many experiences of stopping the mind and many others have too. We all try to describe those experiences. The descriptions may not all be the same, but most of them are when you start to examine them closely. They do point to something beyond, something incomprehensible, and to the superconscious or extremely intelligent, comprehensible. How else could the Buddhists have mapped levels of samadhi or jhanas? Well, yes, you can instruct someone in a practice, to have the same experience that you have had and one would logically assume that if the experience is the same, then the realization of that truth will be the same. Further, many yogic texts tell about shaktipat, about enlightenment on contact... SRF teaches that if you put a strong magnet next to a weak one, eventually the weaker magnet will become just as strong as the strong one. Enlightenment by close association! Then you haven't experienced superconsciousness, or unity consciousness. However, the more important question is: "If God is all there is, and we are all manifestations of God, do you have the right to interfere with God's creation by awakening people out of the dream?" TI

Very few seem to understand what Jivanmukti means and who a Jivanmukta is.. Jivanmukti refers to the state of an adept who remains alive in a physical body, while actually having completely realized his true Self. Though liberated from the samsaric cycle of transmigration, he continues to live on account of karma. There are three kinds of karma which affect all. The first two, Sanchita and Kriyamana, refer to karma or action done in the past which is yet to bear fruit, and action being done in the present which is to bear fruit, respectively. When the Self is realized, these two types of karma are completely exhausted. The third type of karma, Prarabdha, however, is the action done in the past which has already begun to bear fruit through the manifestation of the present physical body. And this type of karma cannot be exhausted until death of the physical body, just as an arrow which which has left the bow continues to move as long as its initial motion is not exhausted. So, the Prarabdha Karma keeps the body activity going, while the Jivanmukta remains completely unaffected by it. He remains not in the three states (jagara-wakeful, swapna-dream, sushupti-deep sleep) but in the turiya, which is characterized by unceasing tranquility. As he is unattached to activity and its result, he is also said to be free from the consequence and judgments of good and evil. This way, he is thoroughly amoral, and nothing would karmically affect him including someone’s murder, still such an act born of egoism is totally alien to his nature. Unattachment and amorality are but some of the important signposts, there is also the realization of identity of others and everything with his own Self. Because of this universal identification, everything he does is inspired by love which is free of preferences and exclusions. While this is the general concept of Jivanmukti, the Tantras of Kashmir Shaivism further clarify on this topic. There are sadhakas who, after the achievement of the supreme knowledge and their establishment in their pure nature, may continue to exist in embodied form for some time to come, provided they have previously ripened karma (i.e. prarabdha karma) sustaining their present embodied condition, and possess keen desire for enjoyment (bhogavasana). Such sadhakas, when enlightened, are said to become the jivanmuktas. The jivanmuktas do not live in a different world or walk about and behave differently from ordinary mortals. They exist, on the other hand, with ordinary mortals; they perform karma and participate in all activities of the world like ordinary mortals, yet their actions do not affect them. They remain as they are, emancipated beings. They perform karma only to keep themselves in embodied form and to satiate their desire for bhoga in this world, but in this process do not acquire any fresh karma. As soon as the fruits of their ripened or prarabdha karma which were sustaining them in their embodied form, are enjoyed and exhausted, they lose their body-apparatuses once for all and become one with the Supreme. They do not have further birth after the present one. Amongst the four upayas, those liberated through anupaya do not experience Jivanmukti. There is some chance of it in Shambhavopaya and much more in the case of Shaktopaya.

One of the things about the shadow that is so tricky to deal with, is that it is unconscious. It truly is. When parts of it come to light it is a great opportunity to have a good look. (Or, if you are not on a path of consciousness, to flip into denial and compensation.) Meditation should throw the shadow into light pretty quickly. And ongoingly. It can be very arduous indeed to face the emotional impact of ones less than desirable aspects, seen with clarity. I have been catapulted into severe anguish by seeing myself as unthinking, unfeeling, callous, generally unaware. The remorse I have felt for what I have done whilst unaware was agonising, no understatement. As I perceive it, the process is an energetic release and a karmic clearing. For me, thinking about my less than desirable aspects has been helpful only up to a point. Owning them is crucial, of course. But the real work, for me, has been done energetically be clearing the blockages created by said unconsciousness. Not that the work is finished! I dont mean to imply that. I dont think it is ever 'finished'. I think one gets deeper and deeper glimpses into ones nature - the parts that flow and create, and the other parts, that obstruct or destroy. Yes we inevitably have creation and destruction cycles, but the times when we destroy flow with shadow is what am speaking of and what I think your thread is about. So from reading what I have written I see what I am saying is that dealing with the process energetically has been more productive for me than just dealing with it mentally. The psyche is too clever at making up excuses for preserving the status quo. This is why art therapy, dream work, body work etc are so powerful. Because they bypass the conscious mind whilst including it as a guest rather than the monarch. Discerning what is projection and what is instinctive recoil due to the formation of an Other is an interesting excercise. It may be helpful to find where in the body does ones recoil come from, and go deeper into the recoil and get a sense of it as a colour, shape, name, time, etc, and dialogue with the recoil to find out the seed of it. It isnt so much that I 'dislike' things about myself as that I want to iron out blockages to flow.

Actually Chunyi Lin taught us to never pull the energy blockages directly out of the center of the top of the skull -- even though we are not touching the person. I didn't take this seriously and i didn't know what would happen and also I didn't realize how strong my chi energy was compared to the lady's. BAsically I had just finished my intensive bigu qi feast for a week on just half a glass of water and had just finished the LEvel 3 retreat and then Chunyi Lin's assistant asked me to share my experience of training with the group -- and then the lady asked me to do a healing on her. She knew I felt bad but there was nothing we could do. Everything left as it was the end of the healing practice session so we both left and she was still crying but someone came to comfort her. So then I went downstairs and I saw my college friend and I said you will not believe what just happened. Then right then the old lady came walking towards us still bawling with someone having their arm around her. But then I saw her again at another session and she smiled at me so I knew she had forgiven me and that it was just an honest mistake on my part. But that along with the astral travel spinning experience and also when I healed my mom she screamed at me bloody murder - super anger until I ate food. So I stuffed food down but it was very traumatic -- but I realized I was exorcising her alcoholism anger of her liver. At the time I didn't know that was what happened so she called me two weeks later and said she no longer needed her surgical stockings and she didn't need to keep her legs elevated. I had healed her -- she said the last healing was the "difference between night and day." haha. So I guess that comment fits into the astral travel dreaming bit. When I healed her it was like a dream -- very strong electromagnetic energy came out of me and then she actually got so sleepy I had her lie down on the bed and she fell asleep. Looking back I realize it was a very beautiful loving experience but it was right after she screamed at me bloody murder. So she asked me for another healing two weeks later and I said that I had stopped practicing because she had screamed at me so badly and she said that I was just lazy. haha. Now knowing why she had screamed - that I had exorcised her evil spirit -- that she had been possessed -- I realize that I was actually lazy but I just didn't understand. haha. So we learn but the lessons are very strong and it can take a long time to recover -- I have never built up my energy like it was for those two weeks.

The Christina Donell book looks interesting too. Yeah I specifically remeber one dream where I got out of my body in the room where I slept and looking at my body. And than trying to walk through the wall becouse I realised that I am in astral, but my conditioning that time about not being able to walk through the wall was stronger and I never suceeded. I have lucid dreams quite often , maybe not always 100% lucid. They often progress into some places and people/beings I have never met in waking life. There are some places I go and visit in the dreams often, like a favourute nature spot. Also what I discovered latley is when realising that :this is a dream , just to realise it so deepley ,looking with the strong intention to understand, so it literally 'wipes off' and what is left is clear state of mind , a background/playground for the manifestation. And meditation starts. Everything is so interconnected and dreams influnce waking too. What some lucid dreamers are working with is using dreams to create a more fullfing life. For example learning new skills or materilising ones goals in a dream can have effect to a waking life. Youve mentioned a precognative dream and it being freaky. This is true. Here is my expirience. One time when I did loads of spiritual practises for extended period I started to get into this hightened awarness state , but definetley not mentally ready for it. Than I had a dream , well it was like a vision of some sort. First there was a cry for help that I heard while still aware of my rooms surrounding with the eyes closed in bed, that cry led me to this place a buliding . It started to get so very eery, one could feel the deeply disturbing , dark astral atmosphere. The boys voice is crying and there was this two people. I think they killed the boy in the dream/vison.This was so scary and feeling real, that I minimised my meditations for years after. I am not saying my conclusion is true and real but even the potential is too scary. Anyway few years ago when I moved into area , first day when I cycled to work I saw that building form a dream! Cold sweat , I could not belive it. So creepy. Thanks for sharing , it is always interesting to read about others expirience. I have already read about you pulling a spirit out of ladys head before few times . Whats that all about? Like an exsorcisam? Or?

I found the book to be amazing. What I like about it is how he talks about and suggests the reader/ dreamer work with "dream figures." I found myself remembering more dreams as I read the book and culminating with a lucid dream, my first in a few years. Curiously though I found the techniques at the phase to be both simple and very effective, although I haven't been able to devote as much time to it as I would like. At the ob4u website the author feels that the lucid dream and an obe are different stages of the same experience.

Hey thks for that Robert Waggoner vid -- cool talk. Yeah this book Transcendent Dreaming by Christina Donnell claims to go beyond lucid dreaming -- http://www.christinadonnell.com/index.php?product_id=17&page=shop.product_details&category_id=6&flypage=flypage.tpl&option=com_virtuemart&Itemid=10 It's won awards - a fascinating read. I've had more precognitive dreams than lucid dreams but once I was in full lotus listening to Coasttocoastam at night -- the radio show -- and this dude called in saying he thought he felt someone watching him in his sleep -- like a heavy weight on him and then he woke up. So then I knew right away that was not someone else but his own spirit. So then I fell asleep in full lotus and sure enough I "woke up" wondering what was that person over there -- I could feel their weight but knew it was not me. But then I realized I was looking at me from out of my body and then instantly I went back into my body. When my chi energy was very strong I accidentally pulled this old lady's spirit out of the top of her head without touching her. She had asked me to do a healing on her and she sat in a chair and I stood to her side and I accidentally pulled the energy blockage of the top center of her skull without touching her. I felt this heavy electromagnetic blob get pulled out of the top of her skull and right when I felt it -- even though she couldn't see what I was doing -- she immediately stated bawling and she bawled non-stop for at least 15 minutes. So it's the chi energy that powers the lucid dream -- Robert Monroe of his OBE teaching -- Robert Monroe relied on his stomach energy to have his OBEs. Anyway that Christina Donnell trains in qigong and tai chi and then her dreams became not only precognitive but also physically transformative. Then so the summer before last I had a precognitive dream that I knew came true when I went up north to visit my uncle. The energy up north is much more pure so Chunyi Lin likes to have his retreats for Level 4 rainbow healing up by Lake Superior. So I had not been to his retreats up north but he has them every year there. So this was the first time I got to do up north and when I got to my uncle's cabin on this lake in the woods -- suddenly I realized I had dreamt of this cabin even though I had never seen it before. I had have enough precognitive dreams now so I am not too surprised when it happens -- but in my dream I was hovering - flying over the house -- looking at it from a distance. Anyway so then I was kind of fasting -- I did a four day fast to prepare to visit my uncle and aunt so my energy was purified and then the energy up north was so much more pure so when I went to sleep I had a flying dream. When I have flying dreams -- I realize I am flying in the dream and it is fun but it doesn't seem quite lucid. I just kind of observe what is happening. But in this dream I very consciously realized that I was dreaming -- and so then I actually said -- yeah since this is a dream then I can fly -- and said to the people around me -- watch this. Then I just started floating and hovering and stuff in the dream. Then I woke myself up. Usually when I dream then when the dream becomes "real" -- in Taoism it's taught there is one dream that is real which is the nocturnal emission - so in my dream when I start flirting with females then suddenly I will remember my qigong practice. I will go into full lotus in the dream or I will get anger at what is happening and then I just wake myself up from the dream. Or if I start to have an emission I wake myself up before it happens and just flex my PC muscle and then go into full lotus -- without losing any fluid. But anyway that means that I did not properly sublimate and purify my energy before I went to sleep. Yeah I would say that when the waking state becomes more like a dream then the dreams become more like the waking state. But the first precognitive dream I had -- was in 1995 and the dream was more real than being awake. I woke up at 2:30 am and immediately wrote the dream down in my journal that I thought the dream would come true and the dream was my earth first! activist friends standing on the roof of a house holding a banner and standing with Native Americans and the banner was to protect a wooded area. Very specific. THREE YEARS later - long after I had forgotten writing down that journal entry -- I look at a photocopy of a newspaper photo that is exactly the same as the above dream. I get this strange deja vu feeling and then I drive to my parents house and I read through my old journal. Voila -- I find my journal entry from three years before. So that really freaked me out -- how can I have a dream that comes true very specifically -- but the dream is three years before. What does that mean about our waking state? haha.

I've been fascinated by lucid dreaming since college after reading some of Stephen LaBerge's work 20 years ago. I've had some limited success, but nothing consistent or controllable. Recently I found a semi recent LaBerge book, from Sounds True, complete with CD. I'd been working on the spiritual side of Lucidity, but LaBerge's roots are academic, he's a PH.D who ran sleep lab at Stanford u. and did some of the first scientific work on lucid dreaming; actually training oneirauts and finding ways to send messages back and forth to lucid dreamers. In the book his favorite 'tell' (vs. Castenada's hands) is looking at things twice, particular writing, but anything will do. In dreams reality is less anchored, thus things change from look to look. I guess the advantage is the 'tell' is everywhere and everything, not hands or outrageousness. His guided meditations in it are very interesting. From a relatively standard relaxation start to the constant question 'Who is Aware' (followed by a gong!?), he puts you on a beach drawing numbers from 100 down with each breath whilst waves erase them. Later you breath in, out through an open mouth, a butterfly escapes, you become it, and go on to a dream state. It hasn't worked consciously for me yet, but I've only had the book for a week. Interestingly I didn't register the the butterfly part til I'd listened to it 3 times which means I was too far gone to have it register consciously. In any case, its a good book (Lucid Dreaming A concise Guide to Awakening ..), $6 from Half Price Books. While not easy, I think lucidity is the most attainable of psychic (if you could call it that) Siddhis. I believe it can open the doorway to a wide variety of knowledge. Its a double edge sword though. Sleep is an important necessity. Training tends to screw up mine and I'm reminded a traditional Taoist goal is long deep dreamless sleep. Still one thing at a time. I'll work on long and dreamless once I've gotten lucidity under my belt.

I was doing an exercise where I write every thought down and look at it seeing how it could be innaccurate, It was quite a profound experience. Got me to the point where even what I think I see and feel could just be a dream. So when I was dreaming, I started doing this too, and lucid dreamt for the first time. I have several books about lucid dreaming/astral projection but consider it quite outside my abilities to even bother with yet, Im pretty sure Ive experienced another dimension under peyote and telepathy and OBE. Can anyone astral project/lucid dream, how do you do it, do you think its worth doing or easy?

So i had been abstaining from any type of orgasm for about a week into yesterday morning when suddenly i started getting a random nocturnal emission. Interestingly during my dream i could tell that i was about to have one. I think me reacting to it actually made it want to release itself more. The issue is that during the emission i actually tried to hold it in but it kept going as i was forcefully trying to hold it mid-ejaculation. (i was barely awake but knew i did not want my jing to spill and i believe not all of it fully came out) After, I knew that i had done the wrong thing by trying to unnaturally hold it in and then throughout the whole day i had a weird feeling in my abdominal/kidney area. This morning i woke up with an erection and also a strange feeling in my testicles, kinda like it still wants to fully finish the emission i guess? Now my question is should i just get myself to ejaculate again naturally and then start over the abstaining process or should i just not even bother as this is a "minor" injury? (Im not really sure if i actually injured my ejaculatory system or not, so now im just confused if i should do something about it or just let it be) I suspect i can do some sort of qiqong meditation to make the feeling in my testicles go away or it may even go away over time, although i am wondering if it is because im still sexually "charged" because i did not fully ejaculate or because i just messed up my ejaculatory system through that act. P.s. I am pretty much new here so hello to all and thank you for those whose reply to this!

What never existed leaves nothing in the hand but wind while 'reality' offers nothing but imperfection and failure; that being the case we can only dream of what never was and as for what 'really is' remember: it does not exist.

.... What? If you have an objection to what I say say them. Don't call me an asshole because it means nothing other than to show your dislike for what I'm writing. In my opinion, what I write in criticism of Xabir has value. If I sound incredulous, it's because the more I engage in a discussion with Xabir the more it is revealed how obviously contradictory and unsupported his claims are. Despite the paragraphs and paragraphs of very wise sounding terms and quotes he uses, if you just sort of get down to it, Xabir is this groomed Buddhist fanatic and a very naive practitioner. He is very clueless about how his views have been formed and the tidbits of analogy he comes up with, like the santa claus example or this mirror example, just end up sabotaging the very points he is trying to make revealing that his own insights are just copycated ideas from people he has faith in. In the past all this would've been very different since we would be having a discussion contextualized within Buddhism. But now that I approach him outside of that frame, he just sounds like hard headed fundamentalist incapable of clearly outlining or explaining himself in a sensible manner. His entire argument is based on just "Hey I see the Truth! And you don't! Because, well, I see it!" I see something a bit frightening in his demeanor, that he is merely a true believer, that he is completely in the dark about himself (not surprising, since he says he doesn't have a self). What infuriates me is that he often, in his belief that he is awakened and everyone else who is not Buddhist is deluded and ignorant, pretends to understand or have genuine insight into issues such as suffering, that he literally just touches on via the textbook, or his own bible. The truth is, Xabir doesn't really contemplate, but pretends that he has. His so called "contemplations" are just following whatever Thusness or Buddhism tells him is the way reality is, what suffering is, what life should be like, how to behave oneself, how to treat others (oh yes, gain good karma by proselytizing), like some indoctrinated school boy who can't even tie his own shoes, but likes to tell himself how he now knows everything because he does homework every night. What I feel from him is the same feeling when I meet some fundamental and extreme christian telling me I'll go to hell for not believing god, and to prove his statements reads from the bible, and as proof tells me of his dream experiences of seeing jesus, or his daily communion with the Lord (all of this actual events), that he feels Him in the heart. Of course, if you want to learn about Christianity, and providing that this man is somewhat intelligent, it would be a great idea to continue engaging with him. There's nothing wrong with this man, but if you had any sense, you'd look into how this man's convictions came about and realize that it is simply insufficient to believe as "the truth" or the nature of reality. But I do have problems with this man going around being condescending (of course, unintentionally on his part, since he is actually saving souls from damnation in his mind) to others or even intruding on their own rights to explore the notion of God or the Buddha by falsely claiming himself to be an expert.

Happy New Year everyone! Tao Meow this is so intersting you posting about black water dragon. Incredible really! Becouse I wanted to post a thread on dreaming or visions of such creatures but dissmesed at the end . This may be my answer that I posted into mental web. Becouse a night before Christmas I had a lucid dream at the lake directing the dream , so this woman (who is an aspect of me)gets into water reluctantly becouse it is cold , but ends up enjoying a swim , when this big black snake/loch ness/dragony like creature appears under water. I am thinking: oh no, this is wierd creature ,who is this? - it is going to be a hard core battle ,prepare. So I am preparing scenario for a battle in my dream (gathering my force)but for some reason a woman gets life on her own (I am not influncing the dream anymore)and dives under the water and greets the creature and rides under the water playfully and joyfully as if seeing an old friend. Creature had a glowing light on top of the head and amazing presence. I was perplexed at the outcome. For me this answers so many things on different levels. Just had to share this.

Section B What is meant by 'the True Man?' The True men of old did not reject (the views of) the few; they did not seek to accomplish (their ends) like heroes (before others); they did not lay plans to attain those ends. Being such, though they might make mistakes, they had no occasion for repentance; though they might succeed, they had no self-complacency. Being such, they could ascend the loftiest heights without fear; they could pass through water without being made wet by it; they could go into fire without being burnt; so it was that by their knowledge they ascended to and reached the Dao. The True men of old did not dream when they slept, had no anxiety when they awoke, and did not care that their food should be pleasant. Their breathing came deep and silently. The breathing of the true man comes (even) from his heels, while men generally breathe (only) from their throats. When men are defeated in argument, their words come from their gullets as if they were vomiting. Where lusts and desires are deep, the springs of the Heavenly are shallow. The True men of old knew nothing of the love of life or of the hatred of death. Entrance into life occasioned them no joy; the exit from it awakened no resistance. Composedly they went and came. They did not forget what their beginning had been, and they did not inquire into what their end would be. They accepted (their life) and rejoiced in it; they forgot (all fear of death), and returned (to their state before life). Thus there was in them what is called the want of any mind to resist the Dao, and of all attempts by means of the Human to assist the Heavenly. Such were they who are called the True men. Being such, their minds were free from all thought; their demeanour was still and unmoved; their foreheads beamed simplicity. Whatever coldness came from them was like that of autumn; whatever warmth came from them was like that of spring. Their joy and anger assimilated to what we see in the four seasons. They did in regard to all things what was suitable, and no one could know how far their action would go. Therefore the sagely man might, in his conduct of war, destroy a state without losing the hearts of the people; his benefits and favours might extend to a myriad generations without his being a lover of men. Hence he who tries to share his joys with others is not a sagely man; he who manifests affection is not benevolent; he who observes times and seasons (to regulate his conduct) is not a man of wisdom; he to whom profit and injury are not the same is not a superior man; he who acts for the sake of the name of doing so, and loses his (proper) self is not the (right) scholar; and he who throws away his person in a way which is not the true (way) cannot command the service of others. Such men as Hu Bu-jie, Wu Guang, Bo-yi, Shu-Qi, the count of Ji, Xu-yu, Ji Ta, and Shen-tu Di, all did service for other men, and sought to secure for them what they desired, not seeking their own pleasure. The True men of old presented the aspect of judging others aright, but without being partisans; of feeling their own insufficiency, but being without flattery or cringing. Their peculiarities were natural to them, but they were not obstinately attached to them; their humility was evident, but there was nothing of unreality or display about it. Their placidity and satisfaction had the appearance of joy; their every movement seemed to be a necessity to them. Their accumulated attractiveness drew men's looks to them; their blandness fixed men's attachment to their virtue. They seemed to accommodate themselves to the (manners of their age), but with a certain severity; their haughty indifference was beyond its control. Unceasing seemed their endeavours to keep (their mouths) shut; when they looked down, they had forgotten what they wished to say. They considered punishments to be the substance (of government, and they never incurred it); ceremonies to be its supporting wings (and they always observed them); wisdom (to indicate) the time (for action, and they always selected it); and virtue to be accordance (with others), and they were all-accordant. Considering punishments to be the substance (of government), yet their generosity appeared in the (manner of their) infliction of death. Considering ceremonies to be its supporting wings, they pursued by means of them their course in the world. Considering wisdom to indicate the time (for action), they felt it necessary to employ it in (the direction of) affairs. Considering virtue to be accordance (with others), they sought to ascend its height along with all who had feet (to climb it). (Such were they), and yet men really thought that they did what they did by earnest effort. In this way they were one and the same in all their likings and dislikings. Where they liked, they were the same; where they did not like, they were the same. In the former case where they liked, they were fellow-workers with the Heavenly (in them); in the latter where they disliked, they were co-workers with the Human in them. The one of these elements (in their nature) did not overcome the other. Such were those who are called the True men.

Quietly, comes the Buddha (Vajrayogini) http://www.diamondbodyyoga.com/ Is that you I've been waiting for you Quietly, comes the Buddha wake up all along awake in your dreams wake up quietly she watches you sleep gently,...sweetly In your lucid dreams awake Quietly, comes the buddha all along inside of me Suddenly I wake from the dream lucid reality yes she's smiling at me Singing laughing at me dancing with me ...singing I had a dream oh my dream finally, I've become the buddha All along awake in this dream finally compassion is real it's lessening the open-hearted reign Laughter reigns laughter sings glistening Your heart, it sings written and sung by Jenn Howey

Must be nice when one can accept one's own set of facts and create a worldview around it - I really dont understand how you think these cut down the rich ideas will be good for the country - who will they really be good for? I've spoken of many reasons why "its broken" and it aint because of the fundamentals - sorry TJL, you are simply asserting that the paradigm itself is unable to make for a happy, prosperous nation, when the history is pretty clear that the closer to limited government free market conservative principles we get, the more prosperous we get - and yes, the nation as a whole - and the more the government expands, carves out favors from the law for certain constituencies, attempts to force the populace to behave in a certain fashion - the more prosperity is retarded. The "less equal" things get. Which has better consequences for almost all involved? Asserting over and over that punishing rich people is any way to prosperity or a better country is a completely unfounded pipe dream that progressives have been trying to push on the country for a hundred years and change. Oh wait, I forgot - at this point, this is all about "equality" and flattening the statistics, not making the country prosperous. Curious why the jealousy and envy towards "those that have?" The poor are getting screwed remember, but oh...look at how the poor are doing here vs most other places. Compliments of that damn system that supposedly punishes the poor? Be well brother /\ your ideas are just too far whacked out to fit in this country at this point in time. Say what you want about me declaring this "my country" but the things you are suggesting are by and large against the laws of the land, so I have every bit the ground to say "go fk up somebody else's country with these ideas if you really must, but dont do it in my back yard." Because that's what those ideas will do (are doing) to this country since a lot of it is diametrically opposed to the ideas that created the country. We're all coming at this from a place of compassion, we just differ in the application - and my supported ways of governing will make for substantially better results from the standpoint of the entire race - until such time as the method may be dropped; the ways & means long since overcome. Dont worry, we'll get that star trek level of technology so we can provide that star trek level of social services. We just cant reach directly into the future and extract it for use at the present. We've got to grow our way there, and retarding the growth of the human race is not the way.

I could teach someone a method of meditation I learned through dreaming. It would be very interesting for me, since I've never taught it to anyone. I've been practicing it in regular intervals and when my energy is low. For the past five years or so. It is preferable to be able to sit in lotus, but half lotus also works. Some basic knowledge of acupuncture-points could be useful also, but isn't necessary. So... I'm open to teaching whoever wants to try it out. The dream laid no restrictions on who I could teach it to, only that it can not be practiced for personal profit. What I notice from practicing it is that I become healthy, intuitive and energetic. Along with other things.

That wasn't the point of the reply! Holy crap I see that you are really losing the power to infer beyond the appearance of the replies. Great wisdom indeed! The point of the reply was in objection to you supporting your ideals on the basis that a lot of people have them. So without using the framework or the views shaping a direct experience, how is your direct experience more true than someone else's this so called "direct" experience? And maybe, just maybe, wouldn't you be "investigating the framework" through, oh I don't know, inductive and deductive reasoning, i.e. inferred knowledge? And maybe, "those views" shaping how you view a direct experience..be...in that same medium? Are you saying you directly experience all the causes and conditions that come together to form your experience of driving the car? Well geez, then you must also directly experience the car being made at some point, and the guy who invented the model, then the guy who dug up the oil to make the gasoline, and the truck that mixed the concrete under you, and of course! the sun. Gotta feel the sun burning "directly" as its heat through space, through the atmosphere down to the car. What the hell are you talking about? It doesn't deny the it ness of the flower at all! It denies that the flower has a definitive color or shape because it's experienced differently in different modes of vision, because your eyes perceive objects in a certain way. Doesn't mean that the object is somehow an illusion or "not there" that's just a far fetched and totally baseless conclusion. And let me guess. The tool you are using to locate the thought or dream is...maybe another thought? Hahaha! So basically you are trying to locate another thought (needn't be conceptually worded, just the effort is enough) with thought, and since you are now newly occupied with "thought of trying to find thought" and OBVIOUSLY not finding this thought you are looking for (well since, you are already occupied)conclude that the past thought is a total illusion? Holy crap. This is like a guy saying "Hey! I'm going to find where I was 10 steps ago...oh wait, but I'm here now! Ha! That 10 steps ago place must've been a total illusion!" or having gone 10 steps "Wait a second...I'm still just here and not 10 steps back! Oh my god, it's impossible to find that place again! It must be a total illusion!" It's...mind blowingly...stupid. Uh, well, then that wouldn't be spontaneous. It would be learned. No, now that I'm reading through your own insights, it wouldn't surprise me if it took you that long.

As a matter of fact is, billions of people are deluded and that is why they suffer. And when you wake up to truth, you will not have any doubt about it. I never said inferrential knowledge is useless in all situations. I said it is useless when it comes to awakening. Well, I mean, largely useless, not totally. It can be helpful if it helps you establish 'Right View' but still, a conceptual inferrential understanding does not in itself lead to awakening. What is ironic? I think I didn't say 'direct experience' as a problem, I say it is the uninvestigated framework of inherency and duality that is a problem, and those are views, proliferations, not direct experience. But those views can shape how we view a direct experience. Through contemplation (as in Vipassana kind) they can be resolved in a moment of awakening. Firstly I must say, I don't have direct experience of all the links of the 12 links or have very clear understanding into all the exact workings of dependent origination. I also don't know stuff like karma and rebirth, at least not much. I'm not a Buddha. The general theory of D.O. can be seen in one moment, as in when there is no illusion of a self/Self, all activities are realized to be the manifestation of causality in a single moment, like the whole universe is hearing this sound, doing this action. As an analogy: it is not 'I' that is driving the car, it is equally the car itself, the road, the sky, the sunlight, everything coming together to manifest as this action of car driving, without imputing a subject and an object. I cannot however tell you the exact causes and conditions or the 12 links from direct knowledge, furthermore considering that my understanding of 12 links spans 3 lives, from past, present to future. To know the exact details of dependent origination probably requires the wisdom of Buddha, but Buddha does not rely on concepts and inference, so it can only be by direct knowledge and wisdom, and who is to say he can't have that direct knowledge considering he even traced and remembered 91 aeons of his past lives and karma. When someone beats you, pain is felt, with supporting conditions or cause of the other hand. It can be directly observed and no need of inference. It denies an it-ness of a flower, which is what I mean by reality. If there is no substance there is no reality, but nonetheless appearance is undeniable but is dream-like, illusory, coreless, like a mirage. It means there is no substantiality - like a thought you cannot establish the substance, location, origin and destination of thoughts. Or when you dream you cannot locate where the dream image comes from, exists, or goes to. It looks very real as in out there, the dream tiger you see is out there, but when you wake up it's all gone and you can't say it was here, there, anywhere. But you don't have to wait for it to be all gone - even in the midst of a thought arising you cannot find where the thought came from, where it abides, where it goes to. Actually learnt knowledge may not manifest as concepts, etc. It can also manifest as a spontaneous response. If it were that easy I would have become awakened 5 years ago. I realized a dream as illusory. I do not posit some other reality called 'Nirvana' because even Nirvana is also illusory and dream-like.

The way I talk about illusion is different, I say everything - whether of deluded cognition, or awakened cogntion, are all equally illusory, so there is no such thing as a non-illusion, not even Nirvana. Why? Because they are by nature empty - there is no substance at all, so that is why there is ultimately no wisdom, no ignorance, no eye, ears, nose, etc (basically no Everything). Having no substance, yet appearing vividly, therefore Emptiness is Form. So basically everything is illusory... but whether people realize it is another matter, this is why practically speaking, all the people are suffering right now because of their perception of inherent existence of self and things. Their state is such that they do not recognise their dream as a dream, so they treat the dream-tiger as real, and suffer as a result of it. This is just an analogy of course. So the Bodhisattvas and Buddhas, knowing that all along there never was any substance to ignorance or wisdom or anything else, nonetheless understands that a lot of sentient beings are deluded about things and suffer as a result. For example even though everything they perceive is illusory, but nonetheless it appears very real to them and so they suffer needlessly. And it is because of this understanding that we show deep compassion and try to help other beings awaken. If Buddhas are not able to understand the situation of sentient beings, there will be no Buddhas and Bodhisattvas to help sentient beings. They have wisdom, they understand the situation of sentient beings, but they don't rely on concepts. Wisdom is spontaneous. For example some people may upon seeing that the building is on fire, spontaneously without even a thought for themselves rush into the fire to save the children. They did not even have a moment of thought to analyse or think. Anyway a Buddha has five wisdoms: [edit] Tathatā-jñāna Keown, et al. (2003) hold that the Tathatā-jñāna is the jñāna of Suchness or Dharmadātu[4], "the bare non-conceptualizing awareness" of Śūnyatā, the universal substrate of the other four jñāna.[5] [edit] Ādarśa-jñāna The Melong is very important in the esoteric Mantrayana traditions such as Dzogchen. Keown, et al. (2003) hold that the Ādarśa-jñāna is the jñāna of "Mirror-like Awareness", "devoid of all dualistic thought and ever united with its 'content' as a mirror is with its reflections".[6] Ādarśa is Sanskrit for "mirror", the term may be parsed into the etymon of darśana with a grammatical adposition. Kalupahana (1991: p.99) proffers that: Samatā is also identical with the second ādarśa when samatā becomes the non-duality of upāya and prajñā.[7] [edit] Samatā-jñāna Keown, et al. (2003) hold that the Samatā-jñāna is the jñāna of the "Awareness of Sameness", which perceives the sameness, the commonality of dharmas or phenomena.[8] Kalupahana (1991: p.99) proffers that: The Tattvāloka says "The wisdom of equality of Tathāgata is the non-dual method of upāya and prajñā, and it is the wisdom of the universal that can be tasted in the dharmādhtu." [7] [edit] Pratyavekṣaṇa-jñāna Keown, et al. (2003) hold that the Pratyavekṣaṇa-jñāna is the jñāna of "Investigative Awareness", that perceives the specificity, the uniqueness of dharmas. [9] [edit] Kṛty-anuṣṭhāna-jñāna Keown, et al. (2003) hold that the Kṛty-anuṣṭhāna-jñāna is the jñāna of "Accomplishing Activities", the awareness that "spontaneously carries out all that has to be done for the welfare of beings, manifesting itself in all directions".[10]

Ugh. You are just a crap load of disappointment. Read what you are writing, it's just totally fanatic. "If you see truth, it has to be the truth that I see!" And, "Hey someone else saw it too! So it must be true!" Wooow. You can list a huge number of people who have seen things the way you've seen? Hahahahha! Well I can list a huuuuuuuge number of people who don't see what you've seen! Like say, billions of people who you think are "deluded"! Nope, you said it was useless. You clearly don't really understand the use of inferred knowledge, but is obsessed with "direct" experiencing. Deductive and inductive way of approaching information is not merely just theorizing potential cause and effects, but also establishing them from one's observations. For example, we observe that when there is fire, there is also smoke. So we deduce a correlational relationship between the two phenomena. And the next time we see smoke, our mind uses that knowledge to infer that perhaps there is also fire somewhere. If our mind stopped doing this, you would have no idea of the relationship between fire and smoke, and moreover would not be able to even distinguish what a smoke was besides sense experience. All this is truly ironic because all these years you tell these hindu practitioners that their "direct" experience of God is all delusional and they are attached to it. So how do you link the 12 links without inferring their connections after seeing their cause and effects being played out? Do you just see them all at once simultaneously? Well if that's the case, it would just be 1 link wouldn't it? Progression is established by connecting a series of moments and their relationships. If all you had were just mere observations, then you wouldn't have the ability to draw connections among them. For instance even if the Buddha had seen the 12 links being played out universally, he had to understand whether they were just induced visions or valid observations. Ok, let's talk about that red flower example you like a lot. So what if someone sees it as red and someone else sees it in quantum vision. It still doesn't deny that the flower's reality! People just experience it differently. So why do you draw the extreme conclusion that the flower is an illusion? Actually doesn't the fact that you assume there are other ways of experiencing the flower establish its reality instead? Ah so I see, any learned experience is conventional and illusory. So I guess you are just going to ignore the body's biological impulses, genetics, environmental influences when you are acting in this spontaneous and wise manner? Where exactly does this spontaneous action come from? It just *poof* arises? Name me an example of one that's not learned or affected by preconceived conditioning, or any learned knowledge. ....for the millionth time...I do not care what Namdrol says or thinks. I don't hold him to be authority as you do. I don't know him so these statements say nothing to me, they are just statements made without support. And how does Namdrol know what a Buddha does, how a Buddha thinks, how a Buddha acts. Unless he thinks he is a Buddha, these statements are just meaningless and invalid. How do you know that? Oh wait, I know. "I just see it that way." Nice. So wise. . How do you know your own experience is illusory when everything is illusory? Oh wait, I know. "I just see it that way." Haha! And what supports your convictions? Wait wait, I know, "I just see it that way. And someone agrees with me." Great. What led you to this vision? "I knew it was true because my teacher told me. All I had to do was see it that way." Great! Very nice investigation there! Maybe you just woke up to another dream.

Ouch! Damn dream BENDERS. !

Actually, no you didn't. But if you did, it would probably have read something like "<insert substantial logical argument based on comparative practical experience through exercise> followed by... and this is why i think one is not a good choice in reality; anther is the best choice. " I guess one can only dream...