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If what you see is true than naturally it is non falsifiable - others will see the same thing as me if they do their investigation. I can list a huge number of people who have seen things the way I've seen. For example even now, I cannot deny I AM - I AM is just the luminous essence of mind experienced as a non-conceptual thought, but due to wrong framework it is taken as Self. Then one discovers non-dual - then I AM is no longer more I AM than a sight or a sound, but still a clinging to One Mind can occur due to univestigated framework of inherency. Nonetheless the non-duality of subject and object is a truth - there never was such a division, and this is what I cannot deny. Then I discovered anatta, again something I cannot deny. I never said they are completely useless (otherwise why is there madhyamaka teachings), but in itself they cannot accomplish much. Inferrential understanding can give rise to faith or intellectual conviction, but faith or intellectual conviction by itself cannot lead to experiential realization or liberation. His knowledge of 12 links is not by inferrence but direct knowledge. Never tried to, so no comments. Yeah conventional truth assumes things like 'that thing over there is a red flower', but as I have shown you and Thusness have shown the analogy about the red flower being empty of redness or flowerness due to D.O. and emptiness, ultimately 'that is a red flower' is false, it is not true. The ultimate truth is its emptiness. But from the perspective of conventional truth, 'that is a red flower' is true. Know that 'that is a red flower', 'red', 'flower', or 'that is a rose' is actually a learnt knowledge, it is something learnt, and the same thing goes for everything else including 'self', 'awareness', etc, a baby doesn't perceive a thing called 'self', 'awareness' but it is learnt. Before we learn it, we have no means of conceiving a red flower as red flower, we do not know conventional truth. But learning conventional truth doesn't mean its ultimately true, like the word 'weather' doesn't point to something inherent, like any other word ultimately doesn't point to something inherent. Anyway found an interesting piece of info: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madhyamaka A Prasaṅgika asserts that something exists conventionally if it meets all of the following three conditions: if it is known to a conventional consciousness if no other conventional cognition contradicts its being as it is thus known if reason that accurately analyses reality (that is, analyses whether something intrinsically exists) does not contradict it Whatever fails to meet those criteria does not exist.[5] Therefore Prasaṅgikas cannot accept that intrinsic nature exists, even conventionally. You have learnt from the past, but it doesn't mean you have to perceive conventional truth, knowledge can manifest in action completely spontaneously and non-conceptually in pure awareness/wisdom (see the fifth wisdom: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_wisdoms ). Loppon Namdrol: The primary Mahayāna sutra metaphor for a Buddha is a wishfulfilling gem because a wishfulfilling automatically gem fulfills the wishes of sentient beings without concepts. ------- What I am saying is really simple: Buddhas do not have conceptual minds, therefore, their acts of speech are not connected with concepts and signs. ------- Buddha's interactions with sentient beings are completely spontaneous and non-conceptual. ------- Buddha don't have thoughts, therefore, they have no concepts. They are however omniscient. What you said is relatively true, but ultimately, all is equally illusory and empty. Then so do all awakened beings because no true realization is shakeable. You cannot be lured into dream again after you wake up.

I just wanted to say hello. I have felt like I have learned so much and so little at the same time. I have been enlightened and then have chosen at times to forget the Nirvana I have been shown. I am neither master nor student and in a strange, strange way...being back in America, at this time, is the ultimate test of being at peace with chaos all around me. To be the calm in the eye of the storm. In any event, no matter what you dream, believe or perceive, I wish to thank you for this wonderful forum. A Chinese Master told me, "What good does an enlightened person do on a mountain?" I smiled. At times I fret over what I am seeing...and a whisper...it comes...and says, 'do you always believe what you see?" That isn't to say that there will not be conflict...but with each journey, it just is the journey. Each river, is the river. Each path, is its own. So I am here...being more here. Not fluff...though I love people. I also know an important thing, there is seeing and not seeing. Our optimism at times blinds us to the vipers in the road. Our wisdom gets clear of the danger. Namaste M

Hi Christoff, I have too (or had) nocturnal emissions, and by trial-error I found what I told you. The problem with the nocturnal emissions is that we have too much Yang energy in the Kidney-testicles-prostate. Actually if I eat chocolate in the evening or too much during the day I know for sure I will have an erotic dream with ejaculation during the night. According to Chinese medicine chocolate is black so it has the same energy as the kidney. I found out on myself that is too Yang for me so I avoid it. On the other hand I observed that Chinese food especially tofu is very good for me so I learned to prepare myself Chinese food. The main ingredient is tofu and beans because they are Yin. Yin cools down. I do myself bone soups, I buy chicken or pig bones, boil them and use the broil. Chicken is Yang and is used when you have a Yin disease like a cold or flu, pig is Yin and is good for kidney. Beef is Yang too, I personally eat beef only in winter by making beef stew. Beef is good for joints and muscles, also a good stew is oxtail stew. Oxtail is good because it has meat and bones and marrow too. Pork liver and goji berries (wolfberries) is a traditional soup receipt for liver and eyes problems. Goji berries are good also for spermcount. The problem of nocturnal emissions is also related to the liver and gall bladder. If you have too much Yang energy in the kidney the excess energy will go to the liver which will trigger the dream and the emission. So this is why all the Chinese food is white and green and cools down kidney and liver. Tofu is white and belongs to metal, the Yang energy "melts" the metal (you can see tofu as snow or ice) and generates cool water which nourishes the kidney and liver. Anything seafood also is good but be careful, oysters and oyster sauce are Yang, clams and shrimp and scallops are Yin. I agree with Drew that full lotus is the best exercise that makes the alchemical transformations and circulates the energy in the whole body, but believe me (better not, experiment yourself and tell me what are the results), do full lotus meditation when you eat chocolate or mac donalds or whatever you like and do full lotus after you had a traditionally prepared Chinese meal. I agree with everything Drew says but how I see this conversion from sex fluid into energy into spirit for me is like the Aladdin lamp. If you put oil in the lamp, the oil will burn and make light. If the flame is too strong, the lamp explodes. You just have to keep the control of the reaction by being careful what you eat and how much "oil" you have and how big the "flame". Excess yin is when you have so much oil but you have no fire to burn. Then you need to increase the fire to burn the excess oil. Excess yang is when you have too much fire and you finished all the oil. In that case you need a refueling. Chinese cooking is very clever, usually the recipes are balanced Yin-Yang, there are substances that nourish the Yin kidney and liver and other substances that provides metabolic fire for heart-small intestine, spleen-stomach. This is how you have both, oil and flame in the same time. But western cooking provides mostly Yang substances while the Yin is exhausted from an early age. Zhan Zhuang is just a tool, is good to cool down the Hui Yin cavity (prostate area) but only if you do it on earth, grass, wherever you have contact with the static electricity of the earth. Static electricity is yin, it will nourish with cool energy the Bubbling Spring cavity (Youngquan or Kidney 1 point). Breathing is very important how you do it, usually if you breath with a certain intention you only heat up the area where is your intention. In alchemical texts breathing is used like the bellows to make the wind to increase the fire. In your case you shouldn't do that, just let the breathing normal, forget about breathing. That's why it is called embryonic breathing, because it is unconscious, like breathing of a sleeping baby. The breathing should be done through all the skin pores, let the body take or give energy to the universe how it feels good for it. I have experience with all massages techniques, pressure points, feet massage, thai massage. Massage is good to move the blood, dissolve blockages, mainly on the back massage increase the energy circulation (urinary bladder meridians are on the back) it can do good, remove the excess heat from sex but at the end of the day you still have the excess Yang energy in your body so you need to shoot it out. Drew is an exceptional case he can shoot energy through pineal gland but the vast majority in which I am included we're shooting the energy through the natural way which is a leakage, a protection mechanism for overheating. The Yang energy is more intense when full moon. Normally we should meditate all the time and sublimate the sexual energy everyday, but when is full moon the energy is stronger due to the reflected energy from the sun and also from the gravitational pulling. So when full moon energy rises up much more easily, so this is the time when we should increase the Yin gathering, or at least before this time. The meditation in full lotus should be done at midnight at the tzu hour, because then is the time when kidney black energy rises, and this is the energy that needs to be sublimated, otherwise it will go to liver and will create dreams and visions.

I understand... but experiencing an imagination does not make it real, it just means experiencing an imagination. (but it sure can appear damn real, like a dream appears real in the context of a dream but doesn't mean there is any reality, substantiality, tangibility to it) I don't tell myself. I investigate the nature of seeing and discovered it to be so. This seeing is not shakeable even if Buddha or Thusness were to tell me I'm wrong.

You are missing what I said completely. Statement 2 (a self is non-existent) is not rejected because it is redundant, but because there is no existent self that can serve as a basis for that self to go into non-existence. In other words, if no existent is established, no non-existent can be established either. If there is a self, then naturally the four extremes must apply because there is an entity to exist, not exist, and so on. If no self can be established to begin with, then naturally the four extremes don't apply. Conventionally, you are here looking out there at the beautiful tree, but, if conventional truth is seen through and dropped, there is simply the "suchness of seen" without establishing a cognizer or something cognized (a tree), in the seeing just the seen, this is directness. I don't assume. I realized, and that is the whole point. And it is more like 'no self could be established' - it is a rejection of existents but not a postulating of a position of non-existence with regards to an existent. I never said anything about reduncy - I said positions cannot be established - even of non-existence - when the existent cannot be established to begin with. Therefore as Namdrol said, this is about a non-asserting negation that leaves no positions established at all. It is difficult for me to 'prove to you' that your dream is a dream until you investigate for yourself. For whatever 'proof' I present, will be seen from the dream (as in delusional) framework. In any case, the only proof is through yogic realization. You can never show objective evidence of things like rebirth (well maybe a bit, but limited), karma (definitely not), much less things like anatta or emptiness. All these can only be verified through yogic realization and experience. Just because you haven't realized it doesn't mean it isn't true. Illusion and delusion are different. I say - everything is illusory, full stop. But everything is delusional (conventional truth = false cognition) except ultimate truth. In other words everything is illusory but not everything is delusional. When you realize always already, there never was a self, then you see immediately that the view of self has been delusional from the beginning. Yup. Same for rebirth and karma. Buddha is telling you, this is what I see, see it for yourself. He didn't say 'this is what I see and only I can see it'. Nor does he say 'This is what I see and I shall show objective, scientific evidence for you' (impossible). He says, I see this, so practice and you can see it too (via yogic realization and experience).

Hehehe. What can I say? It was a pretty good dream. You go Everything!

I'm living the dream!

Now, forget the dream and get on with living. (Thanks for sharing.)

Originally it was not my intention to reply something Simple Jack should be replying, nonetheless I'll add in a few quotes, and add that Simple Jack of course is one with deep *non-conceptual* meditation realizations, he is not speaking from concepts but his own direct insight and experience. Frankly whatever you realized is just the I AM, and there is no need for a long sutra like Shurangama to explain dependent origination, emptiness, and so on if it is just about I AM. Whatever it wrote must be understood in context. Since very early times, commentators described texts as being "nitartha" or "neyartha". The former are "fully drawn out", and require no further exegesis. The latter are "to be drawn out", and require further exegesis or explanation. This shows that they realized that some teachings are pretty much literal, and others are not. The only question then, is which sutras are which - and that's where most disagree. ~~ Venerable Huifeng "Ananda, you have not yet understood that all the defiling objects that appear, all the illusory, ephemeral characteristics, spring up in the very spot where they also come to an end. They are what is called ‘illusory falseness.’ But their nature is in truth the bright substance of wonderful enlightenment. 3:1 ”Thus it is throughout, up to the five skandhas and the six entrances, to the twelve places and the eighteen realms; the union and mixture of various causes and conditions account for their illusory and false existence, and the separation and dispersion of the causes and conditions result in their illusory and false extinction. 3:2 ”Who would have thought that production, extinction, coming, and going are fundamentally the everlasting, wonderful light of the Treasury of the Thus Come One, the unmoving, all pervading perfection, the wonderful nature of true suchness! If within the true and eternal nature one seeks coming and going, confusion and enlightenment, or birth and death, there is nothing that can be obtained. 3:3 ~ Shurangama Sutra Allow the muddy waters of mental activity to clear; Refrain from both positive and negative projection - leave appearances alone: The phenomenal world, without addition or subtraction, is Mahamudra. ~ Tilopa The meditator may say, "It is the aware emptiness. There seems to be no difference." If so, ask: "Is it an aware emptiness after the thought has dissolved? Or is it an aware emptiness by driving away the thought from meditation? Or, is the vividness of the thought itself an aware emptiness?" If the meditator says it is like one of the first two cases, he had not cleared up the former uncertainties and should therefore be set to resolve this for a few days. On the other hand, if he personally experiences it to be like the latter case, he has seen identity of thought and can therefore be given the following pointing-out instruction: "When you look into a thought's identity, without having to dissolve the thought and without having to force it out by meditation, the vividness of the thought is itself the indescribable and naked state of aware emptiness. We call this seeing the natural face of innate thought or thought dawns as dharmakaya. "Previously, when you determined the thought's identity and when you investigated the calm and the moving mind, you found that there was nothing other than this intangible single mind that is a self-knowing, natural awareness. It is just like the analogy of water and waves. ... Let the meditator look. He may say, "There is no difference. It is an intangible, aware emptiness." If so, then ask: "Is it an aware emptiness after the perceived image has disappeared? Or, is the image an aware emptiness by means of cultivating the aware emptiness? Or, is the perceived image itself an aware emptiness?" If the answer comes that it is one of the first two cases, the meditator has not thoroughly investigated the above and should therefore once more be sent to meditate and resolve this. If he does experience that the vividly perceived visual image itself -- unidentifiable in any way other than as a mere presence of unconfined perception -- is an aware emptiness, the master should then give this pointing-out instruction: "When you vividly perceive a mountain or a house, no matter how this perception appears, it does not need to disappear or be stopped. Rather, while this perception is experienced, it is itself an intangible, empty awareness. This is called seeing the identity of perception." "Previously you cleared up uncertainties when you looked into the identity of a perception and resolved that perceptions are mind. Accordingly, the perception is not outside and the mind is not inside. It is merely, and nothing other than, this empty and aware mind that appears as a perception. It is exactly like the example of a dream-object and the dreaming mind. "From the very moment a perception occurs, it is a naturally freed and intangible perceiving emptiness. This perceiving yet intangible and naked state of empty perception is called seeing the natural face of innate perception or perception dawning as dharmakaya. ~ Dakpo Tashi Namgyal Rinpoche All phenomena are illusory displays of mind. Mind is no mind--the mind's nature is empty of any entity that is mind Being empty, it is unceasing and unimpeded, manifesting as everything whatsoever. ~ Third Karmapa ....Although one recognizes the cognitive lucidity or the lucidity of awareness within emptiness, there are different ways that this might be recognized. For example, someone might find that when they look at the nature of a thought, initially the thought arises, and then as the thought dissolves, what it leaves in its wake or what it leaves behind it is an experience or recognition of the unity of cognitive lucidity and emptiness. Because this person has recognized this cognitive lucidity and emptiness, there is some degree of recognition, but because this can only occur for them or has only occurred for them after the thought has subsided or vanished, then they are still not really seeing the nature of thought itself. For someone else, they might experience that from the moment of the thought's arising, and for the entire presence of that thought, it remains a unity of cognitive lucidity and emptiness. This is a correct identification, because whenever there is a thought present in the mind or when there is no thought present in the mind, and whether or not that thought is being viewed in this way or not, the nature of the mind and the nature of every thought is always a unity of cognitive lucidity and emptiness. It is not the case that thoughts only become that as they vanish. The word naked is used a great deal at this point in the text. And the word naked here has a very specific and important meaning because it is used to distinguish between understanding and experience, that is to say, understanding and recognition. it is very easy to confuse one's understanding for an experience or a recognition. One might understand something about the mind and therefore think that one had recognized it directly. Here, the use of the term "naked" means "direct;" that is to say, something that is experienced nakedly or directly in the sense that the experience is free from the overlay of concepts. Whereas normally we have the attitude that thought is something we must get rid of, in this case it is made clear that it is important not to get rid of thought, but to recognize its nature, and indeed, not only the nature of thought but the nature of stillness must be recognized. In particular, with regard to thought, as long as we do not recognize its nature, of course thought poses a threat to meditation and becomes an impediment. But once the nature of thought has been correctly recognized, thought itself becomes the meditative state and therefore it is often said that "the root of meditation is recognizing the nature of thought." There lived in the eighteenth century a great Gelugpa teacher named Changkya Rolpe Dorje, who from his early youth displayed the signs of being an extraordinary person. He became particularly learned and also very realized, and at one point he composed a song called 'Recognizing Mother.' 'Mother' in his song is the word he uses to refer to dharmata or the nature of one's mind. This song was so extraordinary that a commentary was written about it by Khenchen Mipam Rinpoche. In this song, Changkya Rolpe Dorje makes a very clear distinction between recognizing and not recognizing the nature of one's mind. In one part of the song he says, "Nowadays we scholars of the Gelugpa tradition, in discarding these appearances of the mind as the basis for the realization of emptiness and of the basis for the negation of true existence, and in searching for something beyond this to refute, something beyond this to negate in order to realize emptiness, have left our old mother behind; in other words, we have missed the point of emptiness." Changkya Rolpe Dorje gives another image for this mistake that we tend to make. he says that we are like a small child who is sitting in his mother's lap but forgetting where he is, looks for his mother everywhere; looks above, below, left and right and is unable to see his mother and becomes quite agitated. Along comes the child's older brother, and the image the older brother represents is both the understanding of interdependence and the recognition of the nature of thought. The older brother reminds the child by saying, "Your mother is right here, you are in her lap." In the same way, the nature of our mind or emptiness is with us all the time, we tend to look for it indirectly; we look for it somewhere outside ourselves, somewhere far away. And yet we do not need to look far away if we simply view the nature of thought as it is."... ~ Mahamudra teacher Thrangu Rinpoche

The following quotes from Tao, are my personal interpretations of my ego's experience with Tao. It is by no means intended as a personification of Tao. Once upon a dream... I was right there, in the kitched, as I gave my good words towards the water I was about to drink, only to realize that this was a dream. I decided to let go of everything. Fell down, my muscles became numb, my body vibrated and faded away. I felt high excitement and filled the infinitely empty vessel with trust all the way to the brim that I would now return to Tao and face it. I said, "This feels great!" I had a vague memory of the reality I usually find my self in. All I recall that I was discontent about the fact that it had so many limits! I said in all excitement "Wow, I feel so free here with you, Tao, compared to my previous reality!" "How is it that you felt enslaved in the reality you just came from, and not as free as you feel right now?" said The Tao. I said "It was much more limiting then this one, much more physical and dense! So heavy! I have no idea... I guess I doubted your existance and took the limits as the unchanging truth instead! How forgetful I was!" The Tao replied, saying "Does this conversation matter to you, now that you are certain that I exist?" I said: "No, infact, I don't need to talk anymore..." Tao "Do you wish for me to challenge your trust in my being?" I said: "Sure, go ahead. Nothing can make me forget this! Now I know I can face anything, because I trust in your existance 100%!" Tao: "Off you go, then! Also, forget about this conversation shall we? Don't want to create a personification of Tao by describing me as some guy with vocal chords!" I slowly woke up in my bed and was no longer afraid. I wrote down, "...My... purpose... in... life... is... to trust Tao... to... infinity..." I closed my eyes, and stood up. thought: "I doubt the Tao will warn me when I am about to step right on a sharp object!" I peaked trough my eye lids to see whats in front of me and decide to just open my eyes and walk this way. Lest I should feel the pain on my feet! thought: "Surely, the Tao could not make that pain go away, haha! Uhmm... What was I dreaming about again?" Oh yeah! Trust Tao! These limitations really make me forget about Tao so quickly... I write down "No... idol... worshipping... ,lest... ye... forget... the ...Tao!" Closed my eyes again: "There is no place for fear in full trust..." "I trust Tao to infinity..." I became conscious of Tao and let the thoughts just be, without influencing my actions. Placing my awareness mostly on Tao, without thought, without doubt, without question... I tried to sense where the Tao was leading me and just trust it to infinity. I felt a thought saying "The Tao will hurt you!" I sensed the Tao in the wall, and hit my head against the wall and enjoyed the pain, followed by the silence of my ego. I felt the Tao in my feet, walking guiding me towards a table. The ego was shouting "The Tao wants you to brush your teeth! Its good for your teeth!" I remained focused and conscious of Tao and trusted that this will lead me somewhere. Every action was followed by sensing Tao for further action. I found my self in front of a table with a lady bug lying on its back. I was filled with joy as it became appearant that Tao guided me towards this side of the table, intending me to take the lady bug outside of the house. I recalled the dream more clearly now and felt free. The Tao usually led me towards doing actions that my thinking mind totally did not approve of doing. Paradoxically, once I followed them true, many great personal events happened that lead to allot of joy and harmonious results in my life, as long as I held the intention of trusting Tao. It seems scary, it seems like the opposite direction of love! If you follow it trough without doubt or fear, you will be rewarded for it! The reward of this world lies with trusting Tao, truely! I do not even know what it is, yet I thank it for every moment in my life... Lest I forget about the Tao and the freedom that follows the recalling and trusting of it! Tao "Become conscious of me, so that I can become conscious of you!"

I do agree that the Non-duality of Undivided Light is the Wu Chi aspect of the Tao. I disagree that the mirage of the manifest is real,...in any absolute way. Certainly, one could argue the realness of their dream llast night,...and to them, perhaps it was real. To me, truth or realness is that which never changes. As for the word "exist"...it implies to stand alone. Nothing stands alone,...everything manifest has a Dependent Origination, that is, is dependent on something else. If you uncover something that actually exists,...by all means, embrace it. But keep in mind,...."we need to draw our attention to what is false in us, for unless we learn to recognize the false as the false, there can be no lasting transformation, and you will always be drawn back into illusion, for that is how the false perpetuates itself" Eckhart Tolle

I really only look at my own energy, especially when I go to write, but also when I read. I try to reach into not knowing, until something comes out I didn't know before, or maybe something I knew before comes out in a different way. That's why I'm on Tao Bums, for the joy of discovery. I like reading what Drew has to say, although he is oftentimes speaking as though in a dream to me. I only look at how the relationships he describes feel to me, and I find some inspiration in what I feel, usually. I respect the masters of all the arts, but I like the statement of Foyan, a Ch'an teacher in 12th century China. He said that there were only two illnesses at his monastery: searching for an ass while riding an ass, and being mounted on an ass but unable to dismount. Isn't it better, he asked, never to mount the ass at all? I like what Scotty has to say, and pretty much what everybody on Tao Bums has to say. The folks who realized their own helplessness, who came to a crisis and found redemption, I feel particularly close to even when they are of another faith- I feel with them as I feel with Drew, that I have inspiration from the relationships they speak of when they describe how their faith operates in their daily life. I think Chunyi Lin mentioned that he does reverse breathing all day long. I find that as remarkable as his advice to sit the lotus 2 hours a day, to become a healer. Chunyi Lin by all accounts is an amazing healer, and I like what I have seen of his teaching. If I were able to sit the lotus two hours a day, I might think like Drew to become a healer. However, my effort has always been simply to teach myself to sit the lotus for forty minutes once or twice a day, to heal myself. Sometimes I think I should try to be more, to become an impeccable master, but then I realize that there's no way other than to be where I am 24/7 and that's more about not getting on the ass to begin with. So I give it up, to take it up, yet I don't expect I will become a healer. The energy in people's words, the effort should be to heal ourselves, and that comes through in strange ways sometimes. I love to dance, these words somehow make me feel like that!

For many, such as yourself, non-duality doesn't make sense without duality,...it is as you say, just a term or concept or parlor trick for those like TzuJanLi to play mystic or sage. However, from Non-duality's point of view (although it doesn't use words), it does not need the illusion of maya to exist. Granted that a Center needs a boundary, a Here needs a There, One needs a Many,...but Non-duality is beyond the sum of those opposites. Like absolute love, Non-duality doesn't have an opposite. There is no relationship between "is-ness" and "not-ness". There is no relationship or dependant origination of that which is beyond Duality. For Buddhist who disagree, it is suggested they read the Mountain Doctrine. Non-Duality is neither with-in nor with-out Duality,...the perceived separation that manifests Form and Empty, Yang and Yin, positive electricity and negative electricity, a particle and wave, or sphere and torus, never existed within Non-duality,...within Undivided Light. No aspect of Duality is existent,...such a belief is the barrier built by ego (which itself does not exist) to obscure the reality of Non-duality. Duality is a synonym for dream. V

yes right on about staying relaxed. I guess I was taken aback when I first started practising Zhan Zhuang couple of weeks ago, I found it very powerful. It disrupted my dream state at night. so I had to discontinue it. I would still to find out what makes it so powerful, much more powerful for me than say sitting crossed legged zen meditation. With Zhan Zhuang I really feel my connection to earth, although I do it on a carpet on 2nd floor

Meditation happens and cannot be practised (IMO). It is different state of being than normal waking, sleep or dream state most people expirience. Yet it can incorporate all of those states. However just sitting and various different practises - energetic or visualisation are called meditation also becouse they may lead to meditational state, change of personal frequency to more universal. As well as unfortunate lack of shades of common vocabulary for such terms.

Sorry Audiohealing I must've come out wrong I didnt mean to piss you off or make you feel inferior I agree you should try by all means. I myself have not stopped doing spiritual practice despite my condition and it gives me great power and I do agree with you that you should indeed do it, but also search for professional help. I believe that spiritual masters do not have the kind of experience and education needed to actually cure people from mental illnesses. "So many weird and unexpected shit can happen in life. There are sooo many variables in this situation that psychotherapy can't even begin to solve." I dont understand how doing spiritual practice would be somehow different. Sorry I didnt mean it like that when I said its for "normal" people All I'm saying is that a person suffering from a mental illness is in a completely different situation (doesnt make him inferior or take away from his value as a human being) with his mind and it is much more tricky to begin working it with spiritual practices. I'm not saying you cant have a fullfilling spiritual life ofcourse you can Infact the reason I'm still alive is propably due to my personal mystical experiences. You seem to have a very negative view on psychotherapy I dont think you should confine yourself into anything and that includes doing spiritual practice only There has been alot of research done about spiritual practice and spychoactive plants and their effect on mental illnesses. I have also taken a fair share of psychedelic drugs in my youth and they did work as eye-openers for me just like my mystical experiences, but yet again did not take the problem away. The research done on these fields also shows a similar pattern, where there has been a positive effect but it has been vague and not clear. The problem with psychoactive plants is that while you might go trough a trip where your entire ego is stripped away from you in most cases the experience does not last. You come down from the trip and then you feel good for the next 1-2months but eventually the "realization" you had during the trip wears off and then your in square one only with a memory of what the solution could be. It is a very rare occasion that a person changes fundamentally and permanently due to a psychedelic trip. This poses a problem, because if this happens it means you need to take the substance in order to see the truth and that is not a viable option in the long run, unless you are the shaman in the jungle and it is a part of your culture. There is also alot of research about the effects that tai chi & qi gong have on people suffering from mental illnesses and they show a greater sense of peace, less anxiety, less depression and so forth but again havent been proven to be able to cure people. Sorry if I come out as being rude to you that is not my plan. I just feel that you have a very romantic view about spiritual practices and shamanism. On the other hand you have a very negative view on all the conventional methods. The way I see it is that like you said you dont have many choices. Your all in. But from a statistical point of view the means you are trying to reach your goals are unrealistic. I mean sure if you happen to become the main discipline of a great spiritual master he will cure you and after a year of excessive daily training you will cure yourself. Sure if you do go to the jungle and meet the shaman he may be able to give you a substance and then guide you trough the trip and then all of your problems go away in one night. Sure you MIGHT someday have a mystical experience and be enlightened instantly and all your problems would be gone. But these things are in the realm of propably-not-going-to-happen. The case is that you are suffering and you need to know exactly what is going to happen, how it is going to happen, when it is going to happen, how much is it going to cost and how do you make it happen. I have been asking these questions from myself for 8 years and now atlast I am in a situation where I actually know what it takes for me to feel better, how it is possible to do, where I'm gonna do it, with whom I'm gonna do it, how long its going to last and how much its going to cost. I am so sorry but if you want to be SURE about your personal liberation out of your bad feelings you need to have a clear plan. When you dont exactly know your situation and how your gonna get trough it then yes, the best plan I think is to simply try everything until you know. But I do not think that such a list should only have different spiritual practices, masters and psychoactive substances in it. I share a very similar past with you. When the reality hit me first that I have a mental disease I was also interested in spiritual practices and psychoactive substances and thought to myself "hey, I'm gonna cure myself with these". Didn't happen. I didn't stop practicing I still practice and I like reading all the info on this forum and having all the mystical experiences so I am having a fullfilling spiritual life. I actually had an experience where I did go and meet a psychotherapist and she said to me "you cannot cure yourself by doing spiritual practices" and I was insulted, I told her to fuck off and I left. Year later I had to face the fact that all my efforts hadnt gotten me anywhere. I needed a realistic plan. The first step of my realistic plan was to go to therapy. All of my experiences have made me a very cynical person when it comes to mental problems and answers to them. I can tell you that in my case the solution was a combination of right nutrition (I have candida), psychotherapy (for my mental problems) and a right kind of a plan for treating my cronic fatique syndrome. But before I could know the solutions I had to know the diagnose and the mechanics of how they manifest in me. Anyways. All I'm asking is that if after few years you still find yourself from the same situation and nothing has changed remember this thread and consider trying a conventional method I'm a newbie when it comes to tai chi & qi gong but if you decide to open up for conventional methods or need any kind of help from a guy who has gone trough this you can PM me But if you do choose to go down that road please dont just dream, do the unimaginable. Go to the jungle, find a real master. Give it all you have and you might succeed

Good. Now you understand why in the end Buddha says he hasn't said a single word. Emptiness is merely a non-affirming negation. It negates existents while not establishing anything including a position of non-existence. When I say cognition is illusory, I don't mean there is an existing thing called cognition, that is illusory. I mean the appearance of cognition is ultimately empty or illusory which means there is no real cognition behind the appearance of cognition - appearance means merely an empty illusion without substance. In Diamond Sutra it always say, 'A' is not 'A', therefore its 'A'. Shunyata (Emptiness) means whatever appears are empty of independent or inherent existence, be it a sound, a form, or any other phenomena. This is because it is the 'interconnectedness' that give rise to the sound or experience (The person, the stick, the bell, hitting, air, ears, etc, i.e. the conditions). What is dependently arisen has no independent existence anywhere - so are simply like mere illusion, magician's trick, or dream-like appearances that has no substance or core anywhere. Yes when explaining it is always in comparison - it is only when you have false view of substantiality that it makes sense to talk about the absence of substantiality. In meditative equipoise no comparison is needed because it is not through analysis. But to speak to you in terms of language, I can use pointers. The best pointer is to point to you that your notion of substantiality is false, is to negate that view of substantiality. When you have a realization that negates the view of substantiality, then everything becomes seen as illusory. Wrong analogy. You are comparing the absence of experience of cognizance, with the presence of experience of cognizance, and saying you cannot experience the absence of cognizance since all experiences are an experience of cognizance. I'm not rejecting the appearance of cognizance (do know that cognizance and appearance are inseparable - in seeing just seen no seer), I am rejecting the inherent existence of cognizance. So you should be comparing the view of substantiality with the lack of it, not the presence of appearance and absence of appearance. Appearance, emptiness, and luminosity are inseparable. When you realize Anatta, you do not see 'All is Awareness'. You don't deny luminosity but you realize that 'there is just the breathe, the scent, the sight' and 'Awareness' is just a label collating the diverse, scattered and disjoint manifestation - there is no one awareness linking all of them together, you do not subsume everything to be one substance but see that 'Awareness' is an empty label, in seeing just the seen, seeing is just the seen, just the diverse manifestation. As an analogy: there is no river apart from flowing, wind apart from blowing, weather apart from the wetting, forming and parting of clouds, wind, etc changing moment to moment - so it is not 'All is Weather' (that is mere convention) but ultimately 'there is no The Weather' just like there is no 'The Awareness'. So am I comparing 'awareness' with lack of it, or 'weather' with the lack of it, or 'river' with the lack of it? No, I am not talking about the presence (existence) or absence (non-existence) of awareness, or weather, or river. I am talking about the lack of a substantial self in any of them. No aware-ness. No weather-ness. No river-ness. Just the blowing, the flowing, the manifestation of six dependently originated cognizance. I am not comparing existence with non-existence (which would depend on the notion of an existent). The nihilistic notion of non-existence says that an existent self first exists, then becomes non-existent after death, thus rejecting the validity of karma and rebirth. But when you say there is no existent self in the first place apart from dependently originated activities, there is no basis/self to annihilate or become non-existent when you die. So the extremes of existence and non-existence, eternalism or nihilism are both rejected at once. Of course even the 'activities' are also ultimately empty and when realized the twofold emptiness becomes actualized. Why would you need to 'compare or contrast its substantiality' - when you realize seeing is just the sight and there is No 'The Awareness', you will have effectively understood the difference between false cognition and correct cognition in terms of anatta.

Well that quote is from a thread started by a person seeking help in identifying amanita shrooms. It is easy to misidentify them -- for example there is a variety of amanita in Minnesota that has no psychotropic effects. I didn't know about this variety before I ate the amanita muscaria that I found -- which obviously was not the kind with no psychtropic effects. The time loop effect mentioned in the above report is actually quite prominent from amanita muscaria - so much that I also blogged on it. http://naturalresonancerevolution.blogspot.com/2011/10/fly-agaric-loop-as-dmt-dream-state-aka.html again making the connection to DMT. Still you get a more toxic effect from the similar looking amanita pantheria and it's possible that the above report was someone who ingested the wrong kind as this quote describes: The Amanita Pantheria looks like an older Amanita Muscaria which starts out red but then yellows with age. The pantheria is never red. You probably know this but that's why the Pantheria can be confused for Muscaria. So the Pantheria has more muscarine in it than Muscaria -- and then the muscarine can produce seizures: http://www.pharmacorama.com/en/Sections/Acetylcholine_2_2.php#2

it really depends on body health, internal ability and body type/element predominance. ..and how much ibutane is actually in the mushroom. Over consumption is where people get into trouble. The affect can be very severe. It sometimes effects the central nervous system with seizures and respiratory failure: "" I remember a couple that was walking asking me if I was alright. Then I remember one of them saying they called the ambulance. Then I remember what appeared to be the police and some paramedics standing over me and asking all sorts of questions which I could not respond too. I thought it was all a dream. Then I remember being in the emergency room with doctors and nurses stripping my close off, sticking all sorts of IVs in me, and a tube up my urethra (I remember this excrutiating pain). I heard a couple nurses or doctors (not sure) scream, 'He is going into seizure again.' I then recall the doctor asking me if I took heroin a few times, and all I muttered was amanita, but he didn't know what I was saying. Then I remember coming to, with my mom by my side, about 6-8 hours later. I didn't know who I was or where I was for a long time. I thought maybe I had been hit by a car, or maybe I had died. I simply didn't know and really didn't care, it is the day after now, and all I have as memories of last night are about 6 IV spots on both my arms, and an extremely painful urethra, which is torture to pee out of. I simply don't know what happened, maybe it was the drugs, the dosage, or something completely different. I got CAT scans and I don't have a tumor. I have never had a seizure in my life prior to this. I also can no longer drive until I follow up with a neurologist. "" Yep, a night in the hospital in the most awful psychic agony I have ever experienced while they poured ipecac (SP) and charcoal down me 'cause the little bastards refused to let me puke. I was pumped. I was then hooked to a heart monitor and had the distinct displeasure of seeing my heart stop a couple of times. After one of them and a couple of firm thumps to my sternum I asked the doctor if I was going to make it. He was rather preocupied with saving my life and sorta muttered, 'we don't know.' They would not treat me with anything until the mushroom was identified which they did by flying it to a poison control center in Denver, I think it was, by Navy jet from Moffet field. They then shot me with something that had me down in 15 minutes after about six hours of mental horror. The next morning every damn med student and intern came by to find out what it was like. I didn't have good things to report. Your mileage may vary. The view I got of the human condition and the burried sadness, pain and agony in everyone around and treating me in the busy emergency facility may have been one very powerful sort of empathogenic halucination effect but it fucked me up for a long time. I have tried nearly every psychoactive even remotely available and nothing, NOTHING, has had such a negative psychic effect. "" Apparently she had asked if I was ok and if she could go to bed, and I said, “OK”. She then asked if she could turn the light off and I said “Ok” again. She awoke 10-15 minutes later to a gurgling sound coming from the other room. She found me convulsing on the floor. I had pissed myself at least once, and my eyes were wide open, but rolled back in my head. She tried to wake me, but I was non-responsive to her repeated attempts. Desperate, she called the hospital and had them send an ambulance, who in turn called the fucking cops like most stupid hospitals do in the event of an O.D. (How this can be justified when this only results in more deaths from OD’s when people avoid medical attention for fear of the police). The ambulance came and the cops shortly thereafter. this guys symptoms of sweating, being very cold and salivation precede central nervous system problems like seizure and respiratory failure that result fro overdose of muscaria. "" First of all this was about he most unpleasant thing I've ever done. My wife and I split 30 grams of dried aminitas. We ground them up in a coffie grinder and then heated them on the stove with water for about 45 minutes. We started to drink them about 5:15 and finished about 5:25. The taste was not apetizing at all. My wife started to feel sick at about 5:45 and we both were getting light headed. I got up to use the restroom and i felt like i was drunk; but only in my head. For about the next 30 minutes we watched TV. andabout 6:20 I had to vomit. We bot had a tottaly 'in the head' feeling. The only thing I felt in my body was like i was being pushed into the couch. When I closed my eyes I felt like I was falling. My wife felt the same way. About 6:30 I went outside because I was cold. Even though it was 80 - 90 degreese outside I was still cold. I found myself sweating profously, and salvating like my favorite dish was on the stove. After baout 30 minutes I went to lay on the couch. I still felt the same.. in my head. My wife looked like she was asleep so I didn't bother her. I was still sweating really bad...but still cold. So I got a blanket and tried to go to sleep. It didn't work. The blanket made me sweat more, which made me colder' and so on. For about the next three hours I felt this way. Finally about 10:00 I started to feel normal. So I got something to eat and when I diddnt feel anything anymore I was really tired so I was able to go to sleep. Sleep came easy accept I kept waking up with a soaking wet pillow; and I dont ussually drool when I sleep. The next morning i woke up and felt fine. There were no after efects like LSD or anything. As an ending note...neither of us will EVER take Aminitas again. Bad Experiences with Muscaria

Have you noticed how the robots select 'archetypes'? Goth, sportsfan, hippie etc. Do people you know such as family friends seem to be these robots? Or maybe they are ultimate beings only appearing as robots. It's possible this 'spiritual' path is a curse or a kind of trial for weaker souls. Think about if everybody knew about the robots but just played along with it for the entertainment of each other and themselves as well as to train these weaker souls. Passing judgement on the bots seems erroneous. It seems better to view them as your superiors by purpose or your superiors by child-like innocent bliss. Is the spiritual path harder then the ignorant path? Is it even superior? If you could redesign every aspect of your life would you select this same one? Just some ideas. Also, I'm very curious to the profit you make via donations on your site. You seem to get a lot of hits. I don't mean to be rude but are you making enough to live on? That would be a dream come true no? Ommmmm.

Is there truly a divide between conceptual realization and a more direct realization of the way things are, or is it just a matter of application? Namely, simply because conceptual realization involves words and reflective analysis of something that is experienced it does not make it indirect. This so called non-inferred realization is only experienced as if it is direct because it is applied to oneself, one's own way of experiencing life, and its effects are felt directy without reflective analysis. But the process by which both happen are very much the same. The mind observes and then makes a conclusive conviction of that which is experienced and alters its future ways of experiencing accordingly No, that's a different case involving the depth of conviction. If someone comes to the conclusion with great conviction that "everything is impermanent," his way of experiencing will also be directly affected. But you are thinking of conceptuality as shallow mind games, which in most cases are, but not always. And what backs your enlightened framework other than logic and personal observation? The permanency of a moment's effect is universal to all moments according to your dependent origination. Of course the belief in santa claus can be believed in again! Santa claus is an idea, and as long as the potentiality of santa claus resides in the mind, he can be experienced. You can still very much dream about a world in which santa claus exists. Or we can trace back to how you came to learn that santa claus did not exist, i.e. how you saw your parents wrap presents one christmas, or some guy on t.v. saying so. But upon reviewing the evidence, you can still conclude how it's not enough to deny the true existence of santa claus, and believe in him again! You are simply stating your convictions. You are relying too heavily on personal experience to be drawing universal conclusions while claiming that's what other people do. I am not very interested in that. I am more interested in how you came those convictions, as in what process led you to stop believing in santa claus, because I think your insight is very lacking in that regard.

So, was your peyote trip like the Trial of Billy Jack? As for the Rice-milk,...who knows what a Dakini will do,...the only thing we can really surmise is that Siddhartha would not have been Shakyamuni without her (Sujata). Just as Tilopa would not have realized enlightenment without receiving the 9 Dakini secrets from the Dakini Queen. The Buddhist patriarchy however, wants all to believe that the enlightened were instructed by various guru's,...thus promoting their perpetual guru business. The fact is this: Awareness of absolute bodhichitta, or awakened mind, through the clear recognition that everything one perceives is a dream, necessitates an understanding of the feminine aspect of nature. Such insight is beyond the cognizance of relative thinking, which arises soley through form. Form, by itself, has no perception of the field that holds it, as a particle is oblivious of its wave, or the Six Senses ignorance of stillness. Shantideva wrote, "The absolute is not within the reach of intellect, for the intellect is grounded in the relative." Society-at-large is unaware of nature's feminine characteristics because thinking accepts a fabricated feminine that sustains a strict patriarchal, form-based viewpoint. In other words... there are two feminine's - the feminine of nature, and the feminine of man,...a Yin from Wu Chi's point of view, and a Yin from a Humanistic point of view. V

It means undeluded cognition is also illusory/empty. Yes, undeluded cognition. Illusory implies: an appearance of something, which is nonetheless without substance/substantiality, core, inherency, such as a mirage, a dream, etc. There is no such thing as an inherently existing thing called non-cognition, so non-cognition is also empty, but since non-cognition (not sure what you mean by that) is not an appearance, 'illusory' may not make sense in this context. Anyway I did not speak about non-cognition, just deluded and undeluded cognition. Don't get you. Yes. No. There is just cognition without a cognizer and something cognizing. You are falling into the error of inference again - that to see requires a seer and an object seen (have already told you earlier this is not required). If you awaken, it is like Kalaka Sutta - you do not establish a seer or sometihng seen, just suchness. Yes, and those experiences are illusory (appearing but without substance) Why not? And that experience can be tainted with delusion or not - delusion is also part of that experience.

I'm not sure why you compare realization with making a decision... if you take it as analogy, maybe there is some similarities (but I can't think of any at the moment) but actually realization has nothing to do with decision making because it is a non-inferred realization of the fact or nature things has always been. Decision is conceptual and inferred - you analyze this and this, and then finally you come to an inferred conclusion of things... like Madhyamaka reasonings. This is very different from realization. So of course it is going to be very different. An intellectual understanding of no-self for example, will not allow you to have NDNCDIMOP - the actual experience of it... but direct experiential realization will make NDNCDIMOP effortless because it burns away the framework you use to view reality and make NDNCDIMOP the natural state. In other words an intellectual understanding of no-self for example will not change your latent view and tendencies and your sense of self will still keep arising as a result of that latent tendencies. Intellectual understanding therefore is not very helpful in itself, except if ou yhave the right practice and contemplation and truly see things for yourself, then with the backing of intellectual understanding it is easier to realize. As an example I have said earlier, you may think "everything is impermanent" sounds very reasonable - everyone does, but it is very different from doing vipassana and truly seeing it is the case. Other people may realize luminosity, which isn't denied. But if they reify luminosity as inherent due to dualistic and inherent framework, thats false. Because the truth is the twofold emptiness. Direct experience of luminosity is not the same as realization of twofold emptiness, and it is only when one has realized anatta and shunyata and not just the luminosity aspect, that one can be considered awakened as an arya in Buddhism. Direct experience of luminosity is most often falsely reified due to delusional framework. You see, you can have any number of realization or direct experience, and still not wake up. Just like you can experience the most amazing thing in the dream and still be deluded in the dream. As long as the deluded framework is in effect, no matter what you experience or realized, will be interpreted through the deluded framework... you are not awake. You have not discovered ultimate truth. Whatever you can realize before waking up are relative truths, not ultimate truth. A realization happens in one moment, but in that moment of seeing a truth, that truth cannot be unseen anymore. For example once you realize in one moment that santa claus is fake, you can never believe in it anymore. Explained above No, no labels are needed, it is a non-conceptual realization about a fact... the nature has always been so. It is a truth about illusoriness, not a non-illusory truth. To realize this however is to be free from delusion (not illusion). The effect is permanent, the waking up is permanent. It is not that there is an unchanging thing which would contradict emptiness (it is a changing eternal as Archaya Mahayogi Shridhar Rinpoche says, or as I say perpetual), but from that moment on, all moments of cognition is correct undeluded cognition - if not all then at least most or much of the time. Actually as I said there can still be residual latent tendencies - but most of it are gone, like for example pouring away the jug may leave a little bit of remnant smell, but the whole lot of the contents are gone, the remnant smell is an analogy for the latent tendencies that can at certain point cause subtle contractions or afflictions and stuff like that. Nonetheless NDNCDIMOP has already become effortless and not really hindered by the remnants.

Yes, but you also agreed that realization is an experience. Perhaps you are thinking of how wrong it is to equate mundane experience with realization. But realization is an experience after all, it happens to you doesn't it, just like any other moment of experience. I mean if it doesn't then you didn't experience it. So what makes this moment of realization any special? That it is about your observations of other moments, their so called nature? But then now we have a moment in which two elements are contained, wherein one moment, other moments are considered. But more importantly we have a reflective moment, both of which are contained in the same medium. If they weren't there would be no way to compare two or more things (an example of this is comparing sizes of apples. You either have to see both in one frame of vision, or remember both in a linked conscious stream, i.e. they must be contained in some unifying element) But you deny the duality of such things, no unifying element underlying moments. So what exactly is you idea of the experience of realization? You forgot a few more entries in that definition of the meaning of substantial. From M-W dictionary. a : consisting of or relating to substance b : not imaginary or illusory : real, true c : important, essential 2 : ample to satisfy and nourish : full <a substantial meal> 3 a : possessed of means : well-to-do b : considerable in quantity : significantly great <earned a substantial wage> When we say something is substantial we usually do not think of a core, but its effects. And this is also how we define "real." A waking state's experience is real and the dream experience is unreal simply because we usually experience the waking state more consistently and more viscerally, the waking experience has more substantial consequences. A dream state, if it began to impose on our waking state (let's say the same monster reoccurs every night to scare the person to wake up at consistently the same hour) it will also be seen as "real." Reality doesn't have to do with searching for something's inner core, but rather its degree of influence in our day to day lives. So imo, you have simply given a very strong conviction and substantiality to the "idea of non-substantiality" which to me merely seem self deceptive and uninsightful. You have basically chosen to give a particular observation of life combined with an experience of life in that way, and given it an ultimatum.