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I haven't had that intense or prolonged but it's happened. I don't know enough about neurology (or what practices you're doing) to say more. But I'd do a check in with a teacher if I had one. I suppose if it's uncontrollable there's a preference for making it controllable. The dream yoga people ought to be able to give more precise information, it's their field. Edit: Look also at hypnogogic state research and sleep research. Sleep paralysis and neural proximity (what causes synesthesia apparently but who knows?) I'd also cut back on practice for a while, but that's just me.

I think I had some kind of dissociative experience without taking anything that could cause that. I had an annoying experience that made me angry and then tired, so I didn't feel like doing anything. I just wanted to take a nap, so I lied down on the bed, on the side, head on one arm. I fell asleep and woke up later and turned around to the other side. Apparently I went back to sleep quickly. I have to mention that I tend to experience more active dreaming after a 'wakeup phase', when going back to sleep after having been awake for a minute. I had some of the usual confused, mixed images you tend to get in dreams. Stuff that doesn't fit together properly. At some point, I'm mot exactly sure what happened first, but eventually I opened my eyes and saw the pillow my head was lying on, just like waking up, but the problem was that all my bodily sensations weren't there, but in the confusing dream world. Like, I went from the living room to the staircase and noticed I had forgotten to turn the water off in the shower I assumed I had taken earlier. But the shower was in the staircase, so as I said, the usual dream stuff. I then tried to turn off the water in the shower, which took several attempts, using proper force to turn the knobs, and I could feel my hands on the knobs and the water on my skin and my wet hair, and at the same time I kept opening my eyes and saw my room, the pillow. I then tried to get up or wake up or whatever, to get back into that world, but I couldn't feel it. My bodily sensations (when I say this I guess I mean mostly my touch) were now fading from the dream world, but still nowhere to be found in this world. Somewhen during that part, there was a few seconds where a slight ringing in my ears got louder when I wasn't sure which of the two worlds was real or if any of the two was real, since I couldn't get my sense of touch into the eyesight world and the eyesight in the touch world was getting very vague and sporadic. Well, it's more like a mindsight in the dreamworld. The usual imagery you get in dreams that doesn't seem to be entering through the eyes. I tried to focus more on the eyesight world, though (probably fueled by that part of me that is anchored in this reality), and it was difficult. Now eyesight world was there all the time and dream world only a faint remnant in the background, and my touch was somewhere in-between both worlds, because I started to move my arm and couldn't feel the pillow or anything. I kept moving my arms, I started to find some solid matter. Eventually it felt like I could turn around with some effort, my body still very much paralyzed, and my hands touched something that I think must have been the table next to the bed, and that more and more anchored me, but this was still not eyesight world. Only through these efforts at grabbing onto something, the 'lost part' of me moved closer to eyesight world, and eventually, and only at a certain moment, not before that in any way, I could actually begin to move and turn around and get up - that which I had done according to my sense of touch a moment ago. This process was kind of a vague transition. I can't remember the actual moment where I could move my body again, but I remember eventually being able to. I was fully awake now and could move again normally.

Are you sure you would recognise a master if you met one? The Dalai Lama has received tutorage by many of the highest regarded Tibetan masters since he was a young child and received more empowerments than most of us can dream of and meditates for three hours every day, that doesn't qualify him as a highly realised master but I would hope he would have picked up a thing or two.

Greetings.. The "country as we know it" is failing due to the harvesting of wealth and resources by the elite class for their excessive exclusive lifestyles, at the expense of those whose "time and efforts" are plundered by the corrupt capitalist policies (as opposed to regulated and functional 'Capitalist policies).. Joe, you are playing the scare card to try to preserve a failing system.. while "one percent" benefit from the current system's corrupt policies of defining, in their favor, what 'value' is assigned to the "time and effort" of those that are manipulated by the system which has been seized by corrupt means and by the force of influence by that same "one percent".. that "one percent" demonstrates no compassion for the 99% they manipulate to their own advantage, in fact.. the "one percent" influences and lobbies for government legislation that would lower the tax rates for themselves, further burdening the 99% to carry the weight of the lavish excesses of the "one percent", and.. that same "one percent" lobbies and influences the government to reduce the benefits it is obligated to pay back to those that paid into those benefit systems, another broken promise of the "corrupt" manipulators of Capitalist policies which began with the 'treaties' made with Native Americans.. it is the identifying characteristic of 'The Capitalist Hierarchy', the bottom of the hierarchy will suffer for the benefit of the top of the hierarchy.. there is no example of Capitalism where this is not observably true.. but, it doesn't need to be that way, all that is needed is real compassion, and.. the willingness to live within a structured system that assures everyone within that system will benefit from the collective effort, while rewarding specific efforts with 'reasonable and sustainable' variations within a regulated scale.. Nice!!, Joe.. now, is there any chance you hold a rational discussion?? "Beat you"??? how very sad, that you think this is about 'you', it's about freedom and the 'American Dream' that the policies you propose have raped.... no, i have put forth idea after idea for rational discussion and you 'blast' rhetoric and mischaracterizations as if that defends whatever you think is appropriate, but.. you fail to articulate even a fraction of a suggestion that might fix the broken system, and.. any suggestion that the 'status quo' is sufficient is uninformed or an outright deception intended to secure ill-gotten gains from that system.. The "compassion" i show by confronting your indefensible position is for the 'greater good', and whether you realize it or not, it is for your own good, too.. sooner or later, the oppressed will level the field, you will find a way to negotiate a compassionate social arrangement, or you will face a reckoning.. i am here to help you see this, it is a 'compassionate' effort, call it 'tough compassion'.. Pay attention, focus!! read the last five pages without your conservative ideology guiding your mind.. using ecologically sound farming practices, maximize yield.. create new jobs by shipping the excess to places that 'need' it, where there is suffering due to lack.. then, those regions can stabilize and become productive contributors to a civil society.. THIS requires compassion and will, This is "the rising tide that lifts all boats".. do you resist this, too, joeblast?? Be well..

No, I was suggesting that handing selection of judges over to lawyers is every bit as impartial as the current setup, if not moreso. Tearing down solutions that preserve the status quo - if you're talking the status quo of Society, yes, I want to preserve society. I dont want to see it destroyed and amidst the rubble have something else come out - society doesnt need to be destroyed. If you're talking the status quo of rules not applying to certain people, that absolutely should go. You are oversimplifying the issue(s) far too much. Amusing that "the American dream has so much potential" yet it is exactly that bruised concept which you wish to kill, which I wish to resurrect via getting centrally planned control out of the lives of the american people. All I see from Progressives is a wish to distort the issues in any way, shape or form, so that they are correct - it didnt work with the climate because it couldnt stand up to reality, and its not going to work when you run out of other people's money to spend, either. Not to mention this entire business of "making up rights," speaking of "collective rights" in the same context as individual rights. The whole concept of "Collective" rights are a contrivance. They are known as laws and they differ from place to place. Individual rights are the only common denominator and exist simultaneously between people, your right to have things like free speech or travel freely requires nothing from me - but you are trying to make up rights by saying that things like health care are somehow a right, when they are a convenience, a wish, that require something from somebody else - if it goes with the law of the land, the government can mandate it via law and threat of force - but dont go through the contrived fallacy of trying to convince people that something is a right when it is by definition NOT a right. Something cannot be a right if someone else is required to provide it for you. IOW, "you" have a right for me to provide something for you? Bullshit! I can have law mandate it, I can have my sense of morality call for it, but you have no right to anything of mine, be it my time, focus, money, or whatever. That's the problem when people just make shit up that sounds good to their ears, you get all of these whacked out ideas and people start thinking that is the way the world works...or at least should be, regardless of how miscible with reality such concepts are. Yeah, everyone should have a right to a job, health care, a home, a freezer, a dog, a car in their garage, arugula in their crisper! That sounds great but how's it in practice? With the words distorted, people are less able to really say what it is they are for or not.

Greetings.. Stop tearing down solutions that don't preserve the status quo, you only want to protect your own kind.. the system isn't functioning well, it rewards "time and effort" unfairly and disproportionately, and everybody knows it, and.. finally, people are willing to change that system, and THAT is what's bothering those that might have their wealth dependent 'social status' compromised.. you can swim against the flow of change and be a casualty of it, or.. work to build a more fair and equitable system.. I hope you are not suggesting that the life-terms of Supreme Court Justices are appointed fairly.. the appointment and confirmation is political theater, and no less corrupt than the system that writes that script.. Political Parties are simply well-dressed gangs of sophisticated thugs, taking what they can under the guise of representative democracy.. they serve the highest bidder or the most influential potential investor in their re-election.. The American Dream is an amazing potential, but it has been corrupted to the point that it has to radically cleanse itself and restructure its wealth distribution "more fairly".. are you, the one percent, willing to give up a moderate amount of wealth gained through an oppressive system, in order to repair and preserve that system, or.. will your greed clench onto that ill-gotten excess until those that suffered by the system's oppressive policies revolt and take it from you? Now is the time to work together to rescue the American Dream, but all i see from conservatives is resistance, their way or no way.. Change it or lose it Be well..

It is a strategy of inconceivable attrition, isn't it! Also it sounds like "in order to take, one must first give." End Game Gold star White rose In my head Snow blows No heaven above No earth below No opponent ahead No ruler in tow Empty chair Empty days Empty book Untold ways Stopping short Fitting in Going along Blazing within Ruthless life Ruthless art Ruthless dream Female heart Assessing chaos In a single turn Ruthless compassion Does not burn So while the world provides the hands to match ours, we practice being the guest matching hands with the host. The world doesn't know, so "not knowing" passes through host and guest. As potential is lost on the world of karmic evolution, matching hands is absorbing potential by not speculating in characteristics of phenomena. Accomplishing not knowing in the matching of immediate acquiescence to potential in phantom situations is arrow points meeting in mutual response. Ruthless compassion is the Virtue of the Receptive; the female heart is a ruthless art wherein one does not manufacture conditions. The rule is victory depends on the opponent.

"(Fate) helps those who help themselves." Maybe you should take a trip to the nearest mountain, and spend some time practicing there. Maybe an ancient master will show up, in some way. Spending time in nature is healing, regardless. About wanting to escape, there are two factors... 1) It's good to develop the life you wish for. For instance, what is preventing you from living in your own place? Get a job if money is the issue. This is your life, you should try to make it what you want it to be. Maybe move to a different state? 2) Wanting to escape is just a feeling. All feelings come and go; but of course while they're happening it feels like it's the end of the world...just remember "this too shall pass." You can dissolve all of these unwanted feelings by practicing breathing. Then you can feel just fine, as if you're liberated, and training on a mountain with ancient masters...while in your parent's house. Or something like that. Anyway, trust me, I know the feeling of wanting to escape. Get some more sunlight, brighten up your living space...it's good to think of places you want to travel to. And actually do it if you have the ability. Go into nature and get the space that you require. Dream and realize. De-stressing is supremely important. Best of luck in finding out what works.

Hello TJL, Anarchism is a clear and practical model for world change. Millions of people think so. There are anarchy parties in several countries, they amount to ultra-liberalists, but still they're there. You just disagree with the model, that's all. You are still stuck in the paradigm that there needs to be some universal government in order to restore harmony and balance to the world, but Lao Tzu himself said that a perfect kingdom was like a small town, where one side didn't know what the other side was doing. In other words Lao Tzu was an anarchist. Now if you think he's outdated in his thinking, that's fine, but I believe what he had to say and it is one of the reasons I've been an Anarchist for the last twenty years. I can understand how you might see a group overseeing that this is possible may seem to be a government, but I would beg to differ, it would just be a group that's motivation was to allow each society to exist as they see fit. The problem with a global model is simply that people will never be able to agree with everything, whether it's cultural, religious, or moral values, there will always be conflict so long as we continue to feel the need to push our own agendas on others. I would never even push this agenda on people, rather I have the hope that others may see the wisdom in it some day and decide to participate on their own accord. I think when we get tired of all the war, poverty, and suffering that comes from large governments fighting each other, that someday people will wake up and realize Lao Tzu's dream, unfortunately it will probably be at the tail end of coming apocalypse, either global, natural, or man made before it is realized. I have no faith in democracy, capitalism, socialism, communism, or any other model of government that's been created, simply because they are divisive, they don't work for the people, but rather for those in power. It would require that every nation on the world become selfless and self sacrificing for anything remotely close to what you're proposing to occur, and sadly that wont happen in the current state of humanity, nor would it have happened 12,000 years ago. We need something revolutionary and new to bring about change, something that enables every person on the face of the earth to live free and to their heart's content. That's all I'm saying. Practical, no, possible, yes, but it will only come when we've suffered enough to accept it as the only solution. If you guys want to continue to debate on how to solve the world's economic systems, that's fine, but to me it's like saying, how can we slow down the process of terminal cancer. Aaron edit- And when you started to define what I was saying, that's what I meant by "putting words in my mouth." I listened to what you had to say and also Joe. Your ideas are much more compassionate, and I applaud you for that, but they wont be realized simply for the reasons I've stated above. It would require the entire world to cooperate and right now we can't even get two free world countries to cooperate, how could we expect the whole globe to?

@anamatva I'm a vegetarian. Used to be a vegan as well but then I realized I had to give all my money for cocoa butter and other fancy stuff. I used to train taijiquan at a local dojo but then I just quit. I realize what you say and I will try to be more patient. For some reason I have this ongoing concept in my head that life is too short to be patient so I need to progress very quickly but I guess you need to be patient in order to progress quickly. @Scotty Thank you for your advice. I will read Eva Wong's book and give a shot at Max' Kunlun Nei Gung @Twinner No I'm not Japanese even though I feel as if I was drown by that ancient region. I've wanted to travel Japanese and Chinese cities and mountains but as you already know I didn't have the patience to learn Japanese and Chinese. I will definitely watch Nabari No Ou, in fact I'm downloading it as we speak. As far as my parents go, I once told my mother that I want to go to Tibet and she cried like "You're an adult now, do what you have to do". She was so devastated by the idea of me not wanting to be a lawyer or an architect. My mother just doesn't get it and I don't care about what her husband thinks. My father used to understand me but he passed away. I have to say though I was never burdened by my parents divorce, I don't even believe in long relationships and marriages. When two people cannot live together anymore they should seperate. @crispy91 Your story is truly related to mine I guess. In fact my talents are in music and other arts as well. I used to play the piano when I was little and to go to contests and win them etc but I remember it required tremendous effort from my father to discipline me every day over and over again so I could sit in front of the piano for 8 hours straight and play. I wasn't an easy kid. I too want to go to the mountains and eat from my own organic food and yet there is this other part in me that can't let go of the material rewards in life. How is it possible to want to be an immortal Taoist and at the same time wanting to have millions of dollars and drive a Lamborghini ? I feel like a schizo sometimes. But we all know that all material desires that I have are triggered by my sense of wanting to prove smarter. I have this dream that I go to a class reunion in one or two years and I'm all worked out - great body, sports car everything and their looks when they see me "Gee, he really figured it out". It's pathetic I know but I have to be honest with myself if I am to move on. @Phosphor I understand. I will do these exercises. You are right that I usually underestimate other people for my arrogant nature but the failures in my life have brought me to a more humble approach to life and now I tend to accept what wiser people have to tell me.

This is really hard to share as it is my most painful subject. Since I remember myself I've always felt the world in a more profound way. As if there was so much more than the everyday job and supporting for your family. I would lie in my bed and think about the purpose of one's life, what could be achieved and what great powers stay hidden for all but for the best of our kind and I would dream to be one of them. I come from a pair of divorced parents or so I was told. I might have been adopted for all I know. My mother is a very down to earth person and my father was a complicated guy but in the end he was also struggling to reach a state of inner peace and feel free of social boundaries. Let's just say that through the years I've been a pretty distant man. I've had low confidence since forever for no reason, even though I had so much people interested in me I would still feel afraid of them and shame I guess. I always thought I was smarter than everyone around me and yet I never achieved anything of rare value. I wasn't motivated to study nor did I care for the best diploma. Sometimes I would learn with ease when I forced myself but it killed my soul to put effort in anything. When I was younger I didn't know what I wanted so I would think it's ok to do chores - after all everybody did them, it's the way society works but I just couldn't force myself. After that came the part where I was constantly fighting with my spirit and my mind trying to settle for a single goal and achieve it. A miserable failure here too. Still every once in a while I would get a tiny enlightenment about who I am and what I want to do but over the course of months or years. The sad part though is that I couldn't put effort to fight for the things I wanted either. In fact I started going to Chinese lessons two months ago, and I loved the idea of knowing Chinese and going to China but then after a few lessons I again was forced to sit and learn and to get up on a saturday morning and attend the lectures for five hours, so I stopped going. I'm a quitter that's right. I quit my university degree, I quit going to the gym etc. etc. To this day I work in an office doing things that I have no interest for thus slowly fading to a shadow of unfulfillment and sorrow. One would say that I'm depressed - It is true I was depressed over the years especially in my teenage years but now I don't even feel that emotion anymore. It's like some self-preservation instinct to mute such emotions I guess. I believe nature blessed me with a soul that is able to evolve to levels unheard of but at the same time cursed me with the lack of constant motivation and persistance. I would meditate for a few days and be like "Nothing happens, It's just a waste of time" but deep in myself I would say "Who am I kidding, I'm just not strong enough". And I would watch some epic stories, movies, animes if you want and get overly motivated by these powerful characters and sit and meditate, starve myself for a few days or whatever and then it would go away again. Can't keep this energy of persistance that brings a person closer to his goal. I've failed in absolutely anything that I've tried for this very reason. And I've tried over and over again but there is some conflict inside me that I can't seem to resolve and frankly I don't want to fight for nothing anymore. I can't seem to fight either. I wouldn't settle for less than what I want but at the same time I couldn't find what it takes to be the best within me. I don't know what is the problem but I know that if I can't win this battle then I'll go away from this life as a failure and an embarassment mostly to myself. If you took the time to read all this I'm grateful. I doubt that you will be able to help but then I respect you guys for not being a part of the flock so maybe I'll find the long-desired key to my balance here. Oh, and please excuse my pathetic English. I never had the nerve to finish learning the grammars.

Right, and ain't that the point? (of practice:-)) @HJNT i think that being 11 forever is awesome for science and all kinds of stuff:-) I was going to do a post about the outer changes of dreaming. I thought about it. Then I thought that people wouldn't go for it. Too childish to dream (or weird, or insane:-)) and yet, there it is:-) I think there's a reason for ceremonies for adulthood. I think they change the nature of one's dreams. The dreams were pretty much same old same old, just their portent is different. As a child, not to much effect. As an adult, effective, unless recognized. So now there are people who claim to not dream, nor remember their dreams. But jeez, anyone who has woken up with a rememberance and has not carried that for even 5 minutes into their waking state...must be a siddha.

It is not impossible to work towards the common goal. What goal is more important in regards to all humanity? Even if we don't achieve all that we dream, we may start building the path in the right direction for our successors. The point is that we can do a hell of a lot more than we are doing and waste a hell of a lot less than we are currently. When there are interests pointing in every cardinal direction, it makes for a shitty compass. So we align all these interests to point in the same direction to reveal the path towards utopia. We may not make it, but those who fallow will have an even better chance. Interests in America currently have a big bold arrow pointing towards profit, whats worse is that the arrow doesn't necessarily represent the populace. It is representing a few who deem their self-interests and wants are more important than the needs of the earth and humanity as a whole.

Yup. Pretty much, if you're paying for porn, you're doing something VERY wrong. I can't speak to spiritual decline or Asia in general. But I know a bit about Japan. I've been a couple of times, and studied there for a semester. I know lots of Japanese people both in Japan and in dense Japanese communities here in the states. Also, I'm American born and raised in America, so I'll be contrasting it with what I know of American culture, and make no claims on how it contrasts with "western" culture at large. Also, I'm a guy, so I'm writing from a guy's perspective. Basically, their culture is very different from ours, and I think that they are having to cope with some very different issues which are unique specifically to their own culture. Japanese culture is big on appearances, in/out groups, things you do out in the open vs things you do behind closed doors. You're supposed to know your place relative to everyone else, and you are supposed to act accordingly. Failure to do so results quite literally in social ostracism. Allowances are made for kids up to a certain point, but beyond that, you better know better. Foreigners are also allowed a bit of wiggle room, depending. When I went there I was conversationally fluent, so most people assumed that along with my language knowledge, I also knew the culture. Thankfully my Japanese teacher in the states was from Japan herself, so she filled me in on many of the major pitfalls. There were one or two instances in which I was blindsided by something, and acted inappropriately, and I felt the consequences. In some ways it was worse for me, because I was expected to have known. So that's something you have to understand. You don't make a move unless you know what the group is thinking, what the group dynamics are, who's a senior and who's a junior member, the history of the group, etc etc. Not at all like the rugged individualism that's been crafted in America for decades. In America, it's better to make a move and screw up than it is to hang back in be silent. In Japan, it's better to hang back, be silent, get the lay of the land, and only make a move when you know that it's going to be okay. For sex itself, it's not that big a deal. In general. But it becomes a big deal depending on who you're talking about it/doing it with, under what circumstances, etc etc. Again, the in/out groups, closed/open door groups, and above/below relations come into play. So now we come to the general Westernizing of various cultures. Basically, more independence for younger people, more independence for younger women, and a throwing off of more traditional habits for how you meet and interact with people. And basically... traditional values won't help you in a non-traditional setting. So if you're trying to, say, meet some ladies, and the ladies are waiting for you to make the first move, but you want to hang back until you get a chance to transition from the "out" group to the "in" group... well guess what? It ain't gonna happen! I think that's probably one of the reasons why foreigners can go into Japan and get scores of women, because they aren't hamstrung by always waiting to make the first move. One of the guys who studied abroad with me was a Japanese guy, but he was born and raised in America. Even though he didn't stand out like I did, he was just as good at pulling chicks as I was because he wasn't operating under the same cultural bounds as many of the native Japanese guys were. So what happens when you are a sexually frustrated dude with no interpersonal outlet for sexual needs? Well you turn to porn. And what happens when you've got a country full of great artists and animators? You get anime porn. And what happens when the in/out cultural groups are so strict that you're never really allowed to (or maybe you just never allow yourself to) even interact sexually with girls/women from a very young age? You've got a lot of pent up tension, and that results in ridiculously fucked up anime porn Oh, and crazy fucked up anime porn isn't anything new to Japan. The Dream of the Fisherman's Wife. So that's my take.

The advocates of increased population growth are only interested in new markets to exploit, with the foolish dream that new resources will always be available at whatever the cost!

Yes, and in the three Poisons model of buddhism, advertising = delusion delusion = greed (consumerism, false desires) greed = hatred (militarizing the supply chains) hatred = delusion (consumerism is good) Consumerism is the capitalist's wet dream. In the quest to turn the world's resources into commodities, and commodities into liquid capital, nothing gets the job done better or faster than a global consumer culture. Suck that planet dry!!

An interesting way of dissecting it is here. It looks at a dozen translations, line by line: http://wayist.org/ttc%20compared/chap80.htm I like these explanations for it: Tao te Ching Chapter 80 by tao-meaning This chapter sounds more like a Chuang Tzu story. He like Lao Tzu made points by pointing to extreme cases and often made a joke out of people getting it wrong. There is no out and out humour in this chapter but the story told has rings of Chaung to it. The story is of a place so simple and right that people could live their whole lives in perfect peace without ever thinking of going anywhere else. People so right with Tao that they would not even know they were right with Tao. Simple Utopia by taoistic.com Making knots on ropes was believed to be a forerunner to the sophisticated Chinese pictogram writing. Lao Tzu expresses a longing back to previous times, when things were simpler. I have some problems with this chapter. It describes what Lao Tzu regards as a dream society, but I find it kind of boring. No travel, no visions, no aspirations, and no curiosity. Nothing but the routine of everyday life. It's certainly peaceful and secure, but isn't it also dull? Not to Lao Tzu, evidently. He praises this life, which could be described with his favorite image of the uncarved wood. We would call it rustic. People have boats and carriages, but no longing to use them for exploring other parts of the world. They see the neighboring village and hear sounds from there, but don't bother walking the short distance to visit and get to know its inhabitants. What kind of life is that? What kind of peace and security? To me, it seems like sleep, and a dreamless one at that. Prison or Sanctuary Lao Tzu is tired of the spectacular and the grand. He longs back to the basic qualities of life. That's possible for someone who has experienced the world, and gotten enough of it. For those who are yet to explore it, the simple village life might be closer to a prison than a sanctuary. Of course, what he describes has a lasting charm. No war. No frustrated longing for a greener pasture elsewhere. People are content with what they have, so they know how to enjoy it fully. The food they make may be simple, but it's tasty and filling. Their clothes may be colorless and coarse, without any fancy decorations, but they are comfortable and therefore pretty, too. Their homes are no palaces, but they find security in them. A house doesn't need to be big to be a home. People who enjoy the simple everyday life are free from anguished longings for what very few can get. They will not be tempted by things they can't reach, and they will not suffer because they have less luxury than the emperor, his dukes and generals. Only by not longing for something else, you can truly enjoy what you have. Somehow its hard to think in terms of machines doing 100's of times a mans work in Lao Tzu's time. Some translations are tools, even goods. Interesting. I'd some it up as Keep it small and simple

Hello Joeblast, I'm done. You're about as hardheaded as anyone I've met. No we are not agreeing on more than we're disagreeing, although it was kind of you to try to bring this discussion to a close. The fact of the matter is that capitalism doesn't work unless money is projected upwards, if it moved downwards it would require that it be shared with those who may not be deemed to have any fair share in that wealth. The problem is that, no matter how many times you're given an explanation for why capitalism doesn't work, or is broken in America, you seem to miss the entire point. Encephalon gave an excellent and detailed explanation, as did Ralis, and numerous others, but you ignore them, even when they make sense. You're so caught up in your conservative brainwashing, that you can't look past what you've been taught is true and even begin to examine whether or not what other people are telling you is true. You just assume since you haven't heard it from Glenn Beck, Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, or Bill O'reilly then it can't be true. Here's the problem with capitalism, it's based on the simple idea that some must not have enough, in order for others to have as much as they want. If everyone was able to achieve or have as much as they desired, capitalism wouldn't work, simply because it is an economy based on the ego, in other words it's based on the notion that one can compete and succeed where other's fail, and through that success show others their greatness, and their success with the American Dream. If there was no one to fail, then the American Dream would hold no value, because everyone could achieve it, and then where is the fun in that? So the ills of capitalism are indeed, as Encephalon pointed out, greed, anger, and delusion, and I think he's right, there needed to be these three poisons in the beginning in order for someone to believe that capitalism was a worthwhile system, but even after that these three poisons needed to continue to be present in order for people to experience capitalism and still consider it a good and fair economical system. I can also pinpoint how these three poisons are effecting your own judgement. First one could say you're delusional simply because you're incapable of understanding why there is virtue in being kind and compassionate to someone you don't respect. Second, you obviously place a monetary value on human life, which is shown in your desires to cut social services that help prevent death and suffering, which seems to me to be an example of greed, the desire to hoard one's wealth, despite the fact that others may need it. Third your constant attacks on those who express views that are opposite of your own are indicative of anger and hate, which are necessary to keep the capitalist economy alive. If one does not have an enemy or something to distract the people, then there is a chance people will begin to see the failures in the system and try to change them, of course in those situations you can easily rectify this by making those people the new enemies. Anyways, when I read your responses regarding most of this I also understand much of it has to do with your personality. You honestly believe much of what you express and because you value logic so much, you are incapable of intuitively understanding the need for compassion. Without being able to tap into that reservoir that resides within us, on a deeper level, then it is very difficult to actually understand that what we believe is actually wrong. In fact it would almost take a complete restructuring of your belief system in order for you to actually understand what I am getting at here. I'm not saying this to mock you, by the way, but rather to let you know that this argument is pointless, because I (honestly) can't see the value in what you're saying and you can't see the value in what I'm saying, so continuing to argue the point has no value either. Of course there is a chance that you might end up suffering at the hands of capitalism to an extent that you finally see something wrong in it, but then again I know people who are struggling to make ends meet that are completely bewitched by the Fox News conservative media spin as well, so perhaps that wont happen either. I guess what I'm saying is that I don't really dislike you, I just feel very sorry for you, because I can't see how much joy one can generate when it is dependent on the suffering of others. The negative cycle seems to reinforce negativity, and any happiness that is generated must feel very hollow to the extreme. Aaron

So when one speaks of first principles of something, they are necessarily harkening back to a better time with rose tinted glasses? People are using some terms all too interchangeably here and that's where the majority of the disagreement comes from. We all are agreeing on a lot more than we're disagreeing, if you're seeing beneath the surface here. It is an absolute fallacy that capitalism simply redistributes money upward - that view is predicated upon looking at the money supply as a static quantity, and considering overall percentages thereof - so in reality parroting that remark is showing a misunderstanding of the entire concept of wealth creation. Did Steve Jobs somehow "suck money out of people?" No, he propagated ideas, made products that enriched people's lives (which is a subjective thing,) employed tens of thousands in doing so, and was himself handsomely rewarded in the process. He's one of the epitomes of the American dream, pretty much. Was the money he made "upward wealth redistribution?" Not in the least. Did a lot of the money he made find its way into many other people's pockets because of his ideas, by proxy? Absolutely. If you consider wealth to be something that either you or I have, like the childhood math equation of if I have 5 bucks and I give you two, then I necessarily have three bucks left, then that's where you get the mischaracterization of "upward wealth redistribution" because the concept is being applied out of context. If you can consider anything "upward wealth redistribution" it is things like tax loopholes and other "incentives" that are at root but government distortions - treating one company or industry more favorably than another has a perturbative effect on "the market" as a whole. That perturbative effect manifests as the business not having the best information on which to act; something that should be considered more heavily may not be, some things that are of little consideration may be assigned great resource. It is like a pathogen winding its way through the body. When a pathogen invades the entire community...bubble bubble toil and trouble. It is the very reason why I say we are overregulated. Consider Dodd-Frank, a post-hoc fix for a situation that likely will not manifest in the same manner again, but "they plugged that one hole in the dam" - and in the process weakened the structure as a whole because it entrenched the whole concept of too big to fail. When I speak of the need to simplify tax codes, regulations, limit tort cases, in effect limiting government...I am promoting ideas of fairness, treating everyone with the same measuring stick (that's not absolute, not saying poor people should be coughing up 50% of their paycheck for taxes etc, its more regarding business climate)...those are ideas that lead to a freer market. Make no mistake, a lot of "things that make a market less free" are the very things that prevent you or I from starting up our own business and going after our own seedling of a business. I purposefully do not say slice of the pie, because pies dont grow and have the potential to become exponentially more than sugar and berries wrapped in crust. You can look at a good idea implemented well and growing in the context of the sermon on the mount, where the loaves of bread just kept on coming though they plainly did not have enough for everyone at the start. Captalism also is not the socioeconomic expression - sure, it can be considered a manifestation of such, but that also has common denominator - human nature. Animal nature, even. Bottom line is, you will have that manifestation no matter which form of government you choose for your country. Hatred, greed, delusion will always be there - even a compassionate, generous action, not performed in the most wise manner, will be called hatred and greed by another. Thinking entirely with your heart and ignoring your head can have results every bit as disastrous as thinking entirely with your head and ignoring your heart. Courage tempered by wisdom. So - what's the best way to fix these ills? Elect a totalitarian government that believes it can direct everyone to harmony, or give the people the benevolent freedom that this country was built upon, for better or worse? "Govern a great nation as you would cook a small fish. Do not overdo it." "A leader is best when people barely know he exists, when his work is done, his aim fulfilled, they will say: we did it ourselves." "By letting it go it all gets done. The world is won by those who let it go. But when you try and try. The world is beyond the winning." "The more laws and order are made prominent, the more thieves and robbers there will be." "The people are hungry: It is because those in authority eat up too much in taxes." and finally, The words of truth are always paradoxical. Lao Tzu

When I was younger I had a dream that I found this nice clearing outside of some woods and the sun was shining and I thought "hey, feels like a groovy spot to do a sun dance" so I did and then a bear came out of the woods and roared at me like "STOP THAT. GET OUT OF THERE. NOBODY SAID YOU COULD DO THAT." Then I realized I may have been getting too close to some things that I didn't understand and had no business dabbling in. I hope sharing that might possibly protect someone from making the same errors. These traditions have unimaginable power which can be very dangerous when not approached in proper manners.

Let me tell you about a dream I had. In the dream I realized I was dreaming, and got excited, like "Ooo, I wonder what I can do now that I know I'm dreaming." But before I could try anything, the entire dream dissolved into nothingness, everything went black and I began feeling a wave of bliss. Consciously, I was ready to jump right in, but I felt myself tensing up, completely involuntarily and unconsciously, and in an instant I was awake. So your advice, however good, does not speak to the issue I was referring to. It is an automatic reflex. If anyone knows how to deal with that, please let me know. EDIT: Don't get me wrong, I do appreciate you posting what you did. It's really something that I need to be meditating on. Actually, those kinds of ideas have been on my mind a lot since I began studying with Mark, alternatively haunting and exhilarating me. Which it is is a good litmus test for me to use on myself... Now this, is something I would love if you would speak more about. I'm sorry, but I really can't relate to this statement. Perhaps it is a life experience thing?

Chapter 80 seems like a prophecy made by Lao Tzu! Reduce the size of the population and the state. Ensure that even though the people have tools of war for a troop or a battalion they will not use them; And also that they will be reluctant to move to distant places because they look on death as no light matter. Even when they have ships and carts, they will have no use for them; And even when they have armor and weapons, they will have no occasion to make a show of them. Bring it about that the people will return to the use of the knotted rope, Will find relish in their food And beauty in their clothes, Will be content in their abode And happy in the way they live. Though adjoining states are within sight of one another, And the sound of dogs barking and cocks crowing in one state can be heard in another, yet the people of one state will grow old and die without having had any dealings with those of another. No idea what to say. Guess I'll just explain how I got to this idea and you guys, in the mean time, tell me if you also think it is a prophecy or not and why. I recently had two nice people ring on my doorbell after praying to god to show me the way for the second time. The first time I followed gods signs I ended up being lead to nature by a dog. This second time was before I went to bed. I dreamed about a great wise text, with phrases. The first phrase was so intense that it made me lucid. I made and effort to recall it in order to continue reading the next quote in this dream without loosing memory of the first one. It was really hard. I knew that if I indulged too much into the text, I would forget the quote itself. This wisdom was so intense and powerful, I coulden't help but to read on. I should have stopped and woke my self up in its memory, but I coulden't resist the temptation. As if I wanted to take 2 diamonds even though I can only take one. Then I want three, etc, and ended up with none. I read further and ended up forgetting everything I read. Two people rang my doorbell. All I recalled was a vague proof of the wisdom I read in the dreams. This was the third phrase I read of this book that had something to do with a drunken aspect to all of humanity. I can never know how significant it might have been to me, since I forgot it. The two nice people started talking about the bible, not even bothered by the fact that I just woke up. Why would I reject their message when it was free and they insisted on telling it? I listened patiently and nodded in understanding as they talked about the end times, death of the kings and rulers of the current world, no death in the future, some thing picking up 144.000 people or so to take to heaven. No idea what it ment, but I just nodded and we ended the talk of prophecy with me politely questioning their idea of god and god having a human son l, jesus christ, where I always thought he was not the son but messenger of god. They brought me rumors of paradise and headed on to the next door. It planted a seed in my mind of prophecy. It seems that qu'ran has prohecy and the bible aswell. I wondered wether or not Lao Tzu might have been a messenger of god or follower of the subtle signs of god. I came across this short film about a monk and fish, where the fish was a symbol of god in christianity. Trying to catch it the monk coulden't. The act of hunting the fish raced his mind day and night. Eventually what was an innocent hunt to clear the fish which has disturbed the calm waters of his mind during meditation, became a journey of following the fish. The constant consciousness, focus on the fish and alertness to detect the fish, constant searching and constant hunting, running, chasing, all of it lead. It all lead to great change in this monk. In the end they both head for the heavens and the monk grabs the fish while floating around in heaven and he lets him go. The hunt is long over. This end of the monk and fish got me thinking that if Lao Tzu did exist, it must have been something like that. There comes a point where peace just is, and there is nothing else. Either that, or you start having a clear picture of what paradise actually is and thus you can be released of eternal chase for paradise. Just the knowledge of a coming paradise must have been enough. The end of times perhaps? I'm sure that every great man always leaves his greatest words somewhere at the end of his life. I read chapter 81. It seems like a last attempt at showing the path of peace, love, unity, god. Then reading 80, it sounded like a prophecy by Lao Tzu!

A carpenter named Shih, who was on his way to Ch'i, came to Bent Shaft. There he saw a chestnut-leaved oak that served as the local shrine. The tree was so big that several thousand head of cattle could take shade beneath it and it was a hundred spans in circumference . It was so tall that it surveyed the surrounding hills; only above eighty feet were there any branches shooting out from its trunk. It had ten or more limbs from each of which yo u could make a boat. Those who came to gaze upon it were as numerous as the crowds in a market. The master carpenter paid no attention to it, but kept walking without slowing his pace a bit. After his disciples had had their fill of gazing upon the great tree, they caught up with carpenter Shih and said, "Since we have taken up our axes to follow you, master, we have never seen such marvelous timber as this . Why, sir, were you unwilling to look at it, but kept on walking without even slowing down?" " Enough! Don't talk about it! It's defective wood. A boat made from it would sink. A coffin made from it would rot right away. An implement made from it would break right away. A door made from it would exude resin. A pillar made from it would soon be grub-infested. This tree is worthless. There's nothing you can make from it. That's why it could grow to be so old." After the carpenter had returned to his own country, the shrine oak appeared to him in a dream, saying, "With what trees will you compare me? Will you compare me with those that have fine-grained wood? As for the hawthorn, the pear, the orange, the pomelo, and other fructiferous trees, once their fruits are ripe, they are torn off, and the trees are thereby abused. The big branches are broken and the smaller branches are snapped . These are trees that make their own lives miserable because of their abilities. Therefore, they cannot finish out the years allotted to them by heaven but die midway. They are trees that bring upon themselves the assaults of the worldly. It's the same with all things. But I have sought for a long time to be useless. Now, on the verge of death, I have finally learned what uselessness really means and that it is of great use to me. If, after all, I had been useful, would I have been able to grow so big? Furthermore, you and I are both things, so why the deuce should you appraise another thing? You're a defective person on the verge of death. What do you know about 'defective wood'?" When carpenter Shih awoke, he told the dream to his disciples. "If the oak's intention is to be useless, then why does it serve as the local shrine?" they asked. "Silence! Don't say another word! The oak is merely assum- ing the guise of a shrine to ward off the curses of those who do not understand it. If it were not a shrine, it would still face the threat of being cut down. Moreover, what the oak is preserving is different from the masses of other trees. If we attempt to understand it on the basis of conventional morality, won't we be far from the point?"

Jiang4 Ren2 Shi4 went to the state of Qi2. He arrived in Qu-Yuan, and saw an oak tree which worshiped by the people as an altar. The top of the oak tree can cover few thousands of cattle. If the trunk was measured with a rope, it was ten meters thick. The tree top is tall as the top of the hill. The trunk has branches at eighty feet high above the ground. It can used to build more than ten boats. The spectators are overwhelming from allover the place to see the tree, but this Jiang4 Ren2 did not even take a peek of it and continuously moving forward. His disciple stood there staring at the tree for a long time; then he ran up to catch up with Jiang4 Ren2 Shi4 and said: "Ever since I'd picked up an axe and followed you, I had never seen such a strong beautiful tree before. How come you are not willing to take a look but just moving along without stopping....???" Jiang4 Ren2 Shi4 answered back: "Forget it! Let's not talk about it anymore...!!! This is an useless tress, it will sink if it was used to build a boat. It will rot if used as a casket. It will break if it was used as an utensil. It will not hold the paint nor align with the door jam if it was used as a door. It will be eaten by insects if it was use as a beam. It was useless, that is why it can last this long. Jiang4 Ren2 Shi4 went home and had dreamed that the oak tree said to him: "What are you going to use to compare me with...??? That hawthorn, pear, orange, and grapefruit trees are fruit trees; all their fruits will fall to the ground when ripen, then the branches become abused, the big ones were being copped down, the small ones get to be snapped off." That was because of the end result of having the ability to produce some delicious fruits which causing hardship throughout their lives. Thus this does not allow it to complete its life cycle instead die half way. That was its own penalty induced from the common people. Isn't that everything was not just like so? Anyhow, I had been seeking a method to be useless for a long long time already. I was almost had chopped to death. That was how I am keeping myself alive. Uselessness has been my greatest usage. Supposedly, I really have some usefulness, then would I still be able to have the benefit of longevity...??? And so, you and I are a "thing". How can you look at all matters this way...??? You are only an useless one who is close to death; how would you really understand an useless tree...???" Jiang4 Ren2 Shi4 woke up and told the his dream to the disciple. The disciple said: "The goal was to pursue "uselessness", then why does the tree was letting the people to worship it...??? Jiang4 Ren2 Shi4 said: "Close you mouth, don't say it anymore! It was only its reliance on the people. In the contrary, it induced insults and harms from those who didn't understand it. If it was not a community tree, could it haven't had been cut by now...??? BTW the method it was using to protect itself was something else. If ordinary reasons were used for comprehension, isn't that was kind of too remote...???"

Victor Mair: Both Confucius and you are dreaming, and I too am dreaming when I say that you are dreaming . This sort of language may be called enigmatic. James Legge: He and you are both dreaming. I who say that you are dreaming am dreaming myself. These words seem very strange. Burton Watson: Confucius and you are both dreaming! And when I say you are dreaming, I am dreaming, too. Words like these will be labeled the Supreme Swindle. 'A.C. Graham': Qiu and you, you're just dreams, and my telling you that you're a dream is a dream too. This teaching he told you about is called a conundrum. 丘也 與女皆夢也 予謂女夢 亦夢也 是其言也 其名為弔詭 All translators have problems with 弔詭 because they misread the socalled 'Ji Li story' as one about a bride weeping on her way to her wedding. The term makes no problem to me because I read the story as about a young man and heir weeping crocodile tears when mourning the deceased Duke Xian. The dictionary definitions of the two characters: 弔 condole, mourn, pity 詭 deceive, cheat, defraud That'll say the end term of these two lines relates directly to the little story!