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I started seeing someone and she spent the night, she experienced the same things I did again, without me coaching her or telling her about my experience. I played it off like she had a bad dream but when she told me what she experienced it was the exact same thing I had. It seems to manifest only in the state in between waking and sleeping. Not sure what to make of a hallucination that affects more than one person. The night this happened there were tons of tornadoes in my area, an area that rarely gets tornadoes. Lots of local businesses were destroyed.

This is not the first time I have heard things like this. It has always baffled me what the heck it is about pork that blocks development of Chi or "resonating with Heaven" as a Taoist might put it. And Drew Hempell goes on and on about how salt blocks the working of the vagus nerve which is involved in trasmuting Chi to higher levels of Shen, etc. I really do find this stuff baffling. Heck...maybe Drew will check out this thread and explain what it is about Pork that so blocks this transmutation process. This really sucks cause I actually like the taste of pork and some populations really depend upon it. Germans for example eat a lot of pork and not nearly as much chicken as Americans do. I do try to eat more vegetables however but not for any particular spiritual benefits. It's mainly just because that's what research shows helps somewhat in avoiding 'poor dietary habit diseases' like diabetes, etc. It's a lot harder giving up grain though than I thought. Grain and grain byproducts are everywhere these days in all kinds of foods you'd never dream were in there. And people who live in the city don't have as many options as those in the suburbs for growing their own acres of veggies. As to the Dalai Lama eating meat. Yes, he does. As I understand it his physicians advised him to do so because when he became full vegetarian his health deteriorated and so upon their advice he started re-incorporating animal products into his diet again. Of course some vegetarian advocates scolded him after that. Paul McCartney being one of them I heard. Anyway...Dalai Lama *also* makes promises to lead the beings (including the ones he eats) to spiritual enlightenment. This is a kind of aid I suspect very, very few meat eaters ever promise to give but it's (admittedly my opinion) sort of the sentiment behind a lot of cultures giving thanks to the 'gods' or the 'animal spirits' for laying down their lives to feed them. Eating meat does not necessarily mean one vibrates at a lower level imo. The truest level is one's intent and willingness to go the distance to back up the aid offered to the animals one eats. Well...at least that's how I see it. But then...I don't know many people like me who go the distance and actually make offerings to Pretas many nights either like I do.* *Waits for someone to point and laugh at her ignorant literalistic interpretation.

Many say that the Complete Works of Lao Tzu incudes the Hua Hu Ching,...but probably not indoctrinated Westerners who believe they only have 5 senses, and that the sense organ of thought (the i think) is really who they are. Not really. You only believe you have 5 senses. If your brain accepted it was merely an impermanent sense organ, you would be at the threshold of understanding the Tao,...and the brain couldn't have that,...it rather drive your vehicle, and keep your higher consciousness in the truck (of a vehicle that really is just a dream). Lao Tzu said, "Intellectual knowledge exists in and of the brain. Because the brain is part of the body, which must one day expire, this collection of facts, however large and impressive, will expire as well" Hua Hu Ching, thirty-five.

So what's the one best book or program to learn to have OBE's? Like anything else - their is too much info. I'm thinking maybe it's some kind of binural beat Monroe type of program - that would give me the quickest results. Also I lucid dream once in a while. Should I go back to mastering that first? Can people really die during an OBE if they can't get back into their body?

Hmmm i think that those tablets are placebos. Placebos work. The reason they are expensive is so that you really feel that you have bought something very great and they have more effect. If they got tested by chemists and they found there to be no metals inside then there probably wasn't any metals in there to begin with. The guy who makes them gave the man some to give to other people, but he said you can only give them to people who specifically ask for these gold tablets, not just start handing them out. It's only cos people believe they really work and have heard about them, then they take them so they have more effect. In fact even a western sergery of removing something has a mental effect too. Those people who believe they are healed and will recover probably do. Those who are unsure probably less likely to recover. Just because a diseased part is removed doesn't mean the diseased mind won't continue to destroy the body. If you could cure the mind then the diseased body part could heal it's self. It's never to late, but the later the more difficult i believe. It's all in the mind. Practicing qigong is the best - it's free. Maybe more difficult and time consuming but it's good in the long run. You don't need anything to help you then, it's all on the inside. ...But it would be cool to be a shaman though.... i'd love to quit my job and just live in a hut in the jungle tripping on psychadellics all day, people paying me to give them some intense experience so that they get a flash of enlightenment. Ahhh i will try dream about it tonight

Lol, thats not exactly starting small. To understand carefully I am going to have to ask you lots of questions to make sure we are on the same page with the words we use... Stop using misdirection tactics. I have not made a 'swarm of allegations'. I have responded to your posts point by point with relevant questions and pointed out the layers of flawed thinking and dishonesty where necessary. Anyway back to a more Interesting discussion. So far we are on the same page here. What methods do you use that you have found to be particularly effective for transcending the 6 consciousness's? I am a fan of viewing everything as dream like appearance including the 6th... Although in some ways for me, it has a little more cognizance involved in it, especially at first, compared to resting naturally which is one of my favorite practices. When I am really In Natural presence, then the world appears as a fresh, empty, magical display with no Interpretation going on whatsoever, and an amazing sense of wonder and joy accompanies it... In that space I don't have to sit there thinking "the world is empty dreamlike appearance" Also could you speak to how you see Gnoledge as overlapping, effecting or informing the events/life in the sensory world? At least for the Gnower...? Groan! This is going to be hard... So many cultures have teachings around the soul/spirits division after death into two or more fragments. Could you describe exactly what you mean when you say Psyche, Soul, Spirit... Also when you talk about Thymos, what else is Implied other than the amazing gland itself Sure, but what reasons? Could you give me your personal experience of Heart Mind? It may make it easier for me to be sure about what you are referring too. Some people use this term in slightly different ways... That makes sense, but would you describe it further? And could you describe the magick perfections? How do you go about with this for instance? lol, you are sounding dangerously close to the Theistic mystics, so could you unpack what you mean by following Spirit? How does spirit 'direct' in order that you may 'follow'? This is not at all meant as a trick question or a trap, I really would like to hear how you explain this. I have some theories but I want to hear yours first Sure. The Heart is often considered the true deep center of the mind in old cultures, with conceptual thought being distortion or ripples on the surface of the water... Tell me more if you please. what 'is' this higher self? What is it like when you experience it? When is it present for you and when not, or what do you find clouds it for you? How have you learned to be certain in distinguishing its 'voice' from the others? What practices have helped you uncover it? Seth.

There is an absolute consideration regarding flaws in things I write,...that is partially the motive for me writing them,...and also, to better the understand the flaws of your monkey beliefs. The Hua Hu Ching suggests, "the ego is a monkey catapulting through the jungle; totallay fascinated by the realm of the senses....if anyone threaten it, it actually fears for its life. Let this monkey go. Let the senses go." I've yet to see your "debate." I suggest that Mahasiddha's (most who were not Buddhists) work from Nine Magick Perfections. You say bunk,...because of your clinging to theistic beliefs. None of the Nine Magick Perfections are be fully understood through the 6 sense delusion of a god,...but you (Seth) insist that you can in fact bring your beliefs and conditions into the Unconditional, and by Seth's will, the Unconditional will remain Unconditional. Other than what you think, a real honest debate would include your reasoning of how your conditions, and those of theists you support, actually enter the Unconditionality of Heart Mind. You see, honesty in this case should be able to differentiate between magick as practiced through the Nine Magickal Perfections, and the magick of hollywood's media-ted cimena that reinforce cultural delusions. "Let this monkey go. Let the senses go." Lao Tzu purportedly said. However, you fight to retain supremacy of the 6 senses, and the monkey mind that imagines them. "All through the night in the cold the monkey squats scheming how to capture the moon." Or in this case, do ad homenim under the pretext of "debate." I never said that "you couldn't Gnow a thing if you tried." This is what you do,...take my statements out of context, make some other stuff up, and present your diatribe about how VMarco is grandiose. Let's be honest,...a Belief Monkey is a sentient being who clings to their 6 senses for their identity. While in nearly every post on TTB, I've stressed the need to go beyond belief, beyond god memes, beyond the 6 senses. And when I suggest inquiring beyond the 6 senses, Seth argues that's monkey belief. Seth says, Seth argues that what Socrates really meant to say is that "The unexamined life is the only life worth living." Or that Plato never said, "Truth pertains to the timeless reality that generates everything in our world." Your truth Seth is within time. That's how you hold your 6 sense reality together. Lao Tzu purportedly said, "there is nothing to teach, no religion, no science, no body of information which will lead your mind back to tao." While Buddha said, "Do not accept anything by mere tradition. . . Do not accept anything just because it accords with your scriptures. . . Do not accept anything merely because it agrees with your preconceived notions." Buddha taught irreligion. You (Seth) obviously need religion and a god. I suggest that such beliefs, all of which arise from the 6 senses, are obsticles that obscure Heart Mind. Buddha said, "Do not dwell in the past, do not dream of the future, concentrate the mind on the present moment." What post have I written on TTB that does not address that quote? Very, very few. No matter what the topic,...be it magick, Light, or oxymorons,...my posts point to the letting go of everything that steps between a sentient being and their direct experience with the Now. Not the perceived now of the monkey minded,...but the actual Now. I do not hate Christians, Muslims, Jews, or any sentient being as you infer through your fear of honesty. I am however, fully intolerant of Christianity or other god memes that step between sentient beings and their direct experience. "The constant assertion of belief is an indication of fear." J Krishnamurti Unlike you, I consistently assert the letting go of beliefs. "I regard monotheism as the greatest disaster ever to befall the human race. I see no good in Judaism, Christianity, or Islam." - Gore Vidal So, hate me for being clear-minded enough to recognize delusion. "Most men would kill the truth if truth would kill their [beliefs]." Lemuel K. Washburn So your posts are nothing new. You are admired by perhaps 95% of the population. "I could not in good conscience, vote for someone who honestly thinks that the other 95% of us (who believe in god) suffer from some sort of mass delusion." Palmer Joss (actor Matthew McConaughey) That's the nature of your sentient world. You have zero interest in honesty, as your posts show. Nor any real debate. Your monkey beliefs are true,...and anyone who advocates the lessening and letting go of beliefs is your enemy, and enemy of all monkey minds, as described by Lao Tzu. I believe no story, whether religiously or not. The story of Tilopa and the fish is an example of magick,...an example that if not realized to be true, in that it can occur, than Tilopa's Mahamudra, and Vajrayana Buddhism as a whole are disproved and invalid. For example: "It has often been said that anything may be proved from the Bible; but before anything can be admitted as proved by the Bible, the Bible itself must be proved to be true; for if the Bible be not true, or the truth of it be doubtful, it ceases to have authority and cannot be admitted as proof of anything." Thomas Paine Jesus CANNOT be known through the Heart, because lies and beliefs do not arise from the Heart. Jesus is only KNOWN, never GNOWN. Of course, it is your belief. And you assume, because you operate out the prison of the 6 senses, that my saying that Jesus CANNOT be gnown through the Heart must be a belief. http://www.thetaobum..._1entry309746 V

he thought your were a strange looking big hummingbird. Animals are nice. Things we dream of that animals can understand us and we them. And they not fear if we are calm. There is also a wish to touch them. We humans have a strange relationship with other lifeforms.

Hi Christa. To continue from the Lobby post, you are the epitome of "The force is strong on this one." You are transfering your stronger energy to the people who you touch. It is not stopping when you take them with two hands, its just creating a larger circuit so you are less likely to to feel it because the energy has more area to pass through. (When you start healing people with the intent of healing them, and touching them, it may be nice to just use one one hand or fingertip so they do get a bit of a shock at first, so that they know its real, so their mind can be convinced, helping the healing all the more. But thats perhaps the future.) Note that if your energy is going to them, you are not hurting them, its natural that stronger, purer energy goes to the less strong. Their body will utilize your stronger energy and it will boost their immune system energy, and cure them of latent things and help them in other ways. So dont worry about giving them a shock. The other thing where you see your body is typical of OBE (outer body experience), or lucid dreaming type thing. Your mind creates a replication of your surroundings, and you think you are awake but really its a kind of semi-conscious dream, in Taoism we sometimes call a "yin body". You probably could find lots of testimonials of similar experiences on youtube. No biggy, its just a sign that you are evolving. But the energy shocking thing is a gift, and you can use it if you want. There's two basic types of bioenergy healing powers, the channelling energy type, and the using your own (lower dan-tien) energy. I'm guessing, though not sure, that you are the channelling type, similar to Reiki (hint:google Reiki) But since your ability is natural and so strong relative to others, you are going to have to figure alot out on your own, due to its uniqueness. But at the very least, look at books at bioenergy healing and other healers so you can get some basic vocabulary, and understand some of the similarities, as well as specific techniques, precautions. If you want to continue on PM, feel free.

1-15 i find thr translation suspet. Hrday is the sanskrit word for heart and drshya means vision and svapna means dream. Dasrhanam is to see. So the translation is more accurantely, by focusing the consciousness on fhe heart...so on.

Nice thread. It's good to see healthy discussion of something as basic and potentially misunderstood as breathing. Your experience parallels my own, Joe. I've been practicing for about 9 years. It's my opinion and practice that the diaphragm contracts during inhalation whether practicing normal or reverse abdominal breathing. During inhalation, the volume of the thoracic cavity increases, irrespective of the type of breathing. The difference is in what the abdominal cavity is doing. What reverse refers to is the action of the abdominal muscles (and pelvic muscles). In normal abdominal breathing, the abdominal and pelvic muscles facilitate the diaphragm's action by increasing the volume of the abdominal cavity which allows the diaphragm to work without much resistance. The chest expands, the abdomen expands, the pressure in the chest lowers, the pressure in the abdomen stays about the same (actually, it increases a little bit). In reverse abdominal breathing, the abdominal and pelvic muscles actually oppose the diaphragm's action by decreasing the volume of the abdominal cavity. This is the source of the compression (increased pressure in the abdominal cavity) that JB refers to. Perhaps this resistance does cause less downward movement of the diaphragm than in normal breathing, but it is still contracting and attempting to lower, actively. The chest expands, the abdomen contracts, and the intra-abdmonial pressure increases more than with NAB. The diaphragm can only do one of two things - contract (muscles fibers shorten, diaphragm actively lowers) or relax (muscle fibers lengthen, diaphragm passively raises). I guess what CD and dawei are implying is that the diagram passively raises as the intercostals actively contract. JB is correctly pointing out that this doesn't occur during reverse breathing as this is not breathing at all. If there is a relaxation (raising) of the primary motor of breathing while there is a contraction of the secondary system (intercostals), the net effect would be either no movement of air at all or possibly exhalation rather than inhalation. This makes no sense. So the diaphragm contracts (attempts to move down) during any inhalation, normal, reverse, or whatever else we could dream up. Although it's downward displacement would certainly be decreased by abdominal muscle contraction during RAB. My teacher is not one to use a lot of words. He teaches in a very old school fashion so much of this for me has developed over a long period of time as a result of internal experimentation, investigation, then correction and fine tuning by my teacher. Most of it is not made explicit in books and many teachers (and authors) misunderstand the process. JB correctly points out the importance of the accessory breathing apparatus which includes the ilio-psoas and don't forget the quadrates lumborum! There are some great anatomic and physiologic references to explore about the breathing apparatus - well worth the time of anyone serious about cultivation. Reverse breathing is a good way of working with guiding and circulating the Qi through creating a piston type feeling through the abdomen and lower dan tian. Once the energetic clarity has been refined, the same thing can be done using the Yi alone. The reverse breathing is a nice method to make and refine that connection between the physical and the energetic (between Jing, Qi, and Shen). But it's just a tool. It's not the endgame.

what you quoted is from Archaya Mahayogi Shridhar Rinpoche. Thusnmess did not write the article, but did comment on it in the comments section. The world is not illusory in the sense of being imagined, this is what he meant by "like an illusion but not an illusion". However I put it this way: the world is illusory but not delusional. The world is not a fabrication of your imagination, yet it is empty and yet appearing, like a dream, a mirage, a magician's trick. Delusion is in taking self and the world to be real. If you realize no self no dharmas then the world apprehended correctly, is itself nirvana.

That is what I always thought, people here always bang on about the world being an illusion but my understanding of it was it was like an illusion, like a dream, which can mean something fundamentally different. There are some Sutras which talk about the world being an illusion but you have to wonder what meaning may be lost in translation, especially if the translator isn't a particularly enlightened person.

My friend Simpo (who is of deep realizations) wrote today: Hi Aik TC, Thanks for the sharing. So far my (what a paradox) experience of no-self has been without emotional content.. Currently, a sizeable chunk of waking hours and at times sleeping times too are in no-self mode. No-self mode has a direct immediate awareness feeling. Without a sense of self, the aggregates are not 'connected' via a center self reference. This lack of self-reference allows the 'fuzziness/fogginess' of self to be cleared away. When there is a sense of self, there can be emotional investment in the content/thought. as well as sensations.. this results in a fogginess of consciousness.In self-mode, one is not aware that the experiences in one's life are actually mind's appearance/contents. This non-recognition causes the sucking into and following of thoughts as if there are real at that time of their arising. In no-self mode, awareness is aware of contents as thoughts...contents loses their semantics and solidity. This at times gives a certain feeling of freedom. It is as if there can be activities, but there is no-one there performing them. In the self-mode, one is invested in the story of one's life.. In no-self mode, this story/experiences are clearly seem as mind's contents and thoughts.... no entirely real, yet not entirely false too... dream-like. If I feel angry, i know that the thoughts/'mind story' of me and an object/person that is making me angry is being played out . Awareness have already being become foggy... And thus it is time to re-establish awareness. The problem... is that once the 'sucking into' is too strong ... any action that is being performed is out of desperation and is via a sense of self. Note.. the way that is being written here is as if awareness is something separate from mind's content. It is not. Awareness is not an object/thing. BTW... i just bought 'Vivid Awareness' a few days ago. A good book and am gaining certain insights from it.

Hi mile83, I suggest not taking things too literally. And i second the idea of reading as many translations of the Tao Te Ching, and other classics as possible. It is written that the dao begot one, one begot two, and so on. However, to my knowledge, daoists never really concern themselves with why. The best explanation i have receieved is that "why" just leads to an infinite regression of "because..." to which can be asked "why" again and again. So some people will tell you that the dao gave birth to one because the old version of reality had come to a close and joined the void again.. that is just one cosmological interpretation, of course nobody was there! Some will say it just did, and thats that, and thats the camp i personally fall into. Some might say that the dao begot one because the universe is full of space and time and something exploded to fill that spacetime.. to me thats based on physics, but some people (like Frijof Capra) have done a lot of bridge science and mysticism. There are probably myriad other answers, but i suggest taking them all with a grain of salt. The dao isn't a logical reasonable thing, it likely doesn't do what it does for reasons that logic can grasp or language can elucidate. Its like asking why something happens in a dream.. you can get freudian or jungian or interpret it according to gypsy witchcraft but in the end, things just happen spontaneously, sometimes simply because they happen. No other reason needed or given. Another thing to remember is that in all likelyhood, time as we experience it has no beginning or end in any absolute sense. Even if this universe experienced a big bang which was its origin, there may be reality beyond the bounds of that explosion, or the universe as it is known. As the buddhist doctrine goes, this arose from beginningless beginninglessness. One last thing to remember is that nobody who gives you an answer knows for sure, so take it all with a shaker of salt.

Hi SereneBlue, Seth Ananda did not assert a Self, and I did not accuse him of holding self view. The problem is that he is unable to discern what the party is talking about, or he is not fully clear about the different insights and problems that can surface in those phases of insights. He is for example, mistaking the "dissolving into nothingness" phase with the realization of anatta. The view of self, in all and any manners, leads to clinging. Doesn't matter what you view self as, or even if you do not have a clear view of what self is (like most ordinary persons) - nonetheless the view that I Am, I exist, is latent and affecting our perception every moment. Even if you take something like Pure Consciousness or Nothingness as identity, it is going to cause clinging. As I wrote: http://awakeningtoreality.blogspot.com/2011/07/view.html The View Posted by: An Eternal Now Just posted in The Tao Bums a week ago: I have just come to a new realisation of the implications of views in daily life. I could have misunderstood what goldisheavy meant but I think it has to do with the fields of meaning. I have realised how ideas, beliefs, notions, views pervade our life and causes attachment. I now see that every single attachment is an attachment to view, which, no matter what it is, comes to two basic clinging: the view 'there is' and the view 'there isn't'. I started by noticing how in the past I had a sense of self, body and awareness... That these all seem so real to me and I kept coming back to that subjective sense and this is no longer the case now: I don't even have a sense of a body nowadays. Then I realized that all these clingings are related to view. The view of There is.... Self, body, mind, awareness, world, whatever. Because of this clinging on to things as existent, they appear real to us and we cling to them. The only way to eradicate such clingings is to remove the root of clinging: the view of 'there is' and 'there isn't'. The realization of anatta removes the view of 'there is self', 'there is awareness' as an independent and permanent essence. Basically, any views about a subjective self is removed through the insight that "seeing is just the seen", the subject is always only its objective constituents. There is no more sense of self, body, awareness, or more precisely there is no clinging to a "there is" with regards to such labels. It is seen that these are entirely ungraspable processes. In short the clinging and constant referencing to an awareness, a self dissolves, due to the notion "there is" such things are being eradicated. The realization of dream-like reality removes the view of 'there are objects', the universe, the world of things... One realizes what heart sutra meant by no five skandhas. This is basically the same realization as anatta, except that it impacts the view "there is" and "there isn't" in terms of the objective pole, in contrast to the earlier insight that dissolves "there is" of a subjective self. What I have overlooked all these while is the implications of views and how the thicket of views cause all clingings and suffering and what underpins those thicket of views, and how realization affects and dissolves these views. ---------- Related stuff: A view is a fundamental belief one holds about reality. For example, "everything exists" (sarva asti) .... The root of both these mistaken positions is "is" and "is not" -- for example "I exist now, and I will continue to exist after death" or "I exist now but when I die I will cease to exist". ~ Loppon Namdrol At base, the main fetter of self-grasping is predicated upon naive reification of existence and non-existence. Dependent origination is what allows us to see into the non-arising nature of dependently originated phenomena, i.e. the self-nature of our aggregates. Thus, right view is the direct seeing, in meditative equipoise, of this this non-arising nature of all phenomena. As such, it is not a "view" in the sense that is something we hold as concept, it is rather a wisdom which "flows" into our post-equipoise and causes us to truly perceive the world in the following way in Nagarjuna's Bodhicittavivarana: "Form is similar to a foam, Feeling is like water bubbles, Ideation is equivalent with a mirage, Formations are similar with a banana tree, Consciousness is like an illusion." ... "In other words, right view is the beginning of the noble path. It is certainly the case that dependent origination is "correct view"; when one analyzes a bit deeper, one discovers that in the case "view" means being free from views. The teaching of dependent origination is what permits this freedom from views." ~ Loppon Namdrol Another related article from an Actualist practitioner: http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/2011/07/conversations-breakthrough.html#more

well said, all of that. Thanks. i tend to think that the more someone uses quotes to make their point, the less thought they themselves have put into said point. Quoting someone sagely is easy, becoming sagely oneself... welll... And while the cone in front of you may in fact be just a standing waveform masquerading as a solid chunk of matter, indistinguishable from a thought-form in a dream, mistaking it for something else is foolish, and mistaking it for not being there is pointless. I like my buddhism pragmatic, not escapist.

Modern Interpretation Yan Hui asked Zhongni(Confucius): "This guy Meng Sun Chai, his mother died, cried without a drop of tear; shows no grief in his heart, he was not sad at the funeral neither. In this three areas, he did not express any sorrow, but he was good at the funeral arrangements and well-known throughout the State of Lu. Perhaps that there was a situation with no such fact but only his name was being fictitious...??? Yan Hui really felt that was strange. Confucius said: "Meng Sun Chai's method in handling the funeral arrangements was really perfect, it was way exceeded those who know how the make the funeral arrangements. People always hoped to arrange a funeral in a simple manner but they cannot have it accomplished but Meng Sun Chai can. Meng Sun Chai won't ask people what they are living for; also he'd never bothered to find out what people die for. He doesn't know how to run toward life, and also he doesn't know how to approach death. He follows the natural process of change then changed into something which what he suppose to be. Then, he waits for those unexpected changes to appear. Even tough there was a change apparently, then, how do I know it was not changing...??? Although there was no change, then, how do I that the change had been taken place already...!!! However, only you and I are those who were dreaming without knowing the state of awaken. Those who were dead had their bodies ruined but their souls were not damaged. It seems like that the dwell place of the soul was changing but the soul was not really dead. Only Meng Sun Chai was awaken, when people cry, then he cries with them too, that was the reason why he guard the tombs for his ancestors. Although during a conversation, I borrowed my physical body and address myself as 'I', then how do I know that the body I am addressing was really mine...??? Furthermore, in your dreams, you had turned into a bird and spreading the wings soared into the blue skies. In addition, in another dream, you had turned into a fish and submerged deep into the water. I don't know in our conversation today, it was spoken by somebody who was awake or by somebody who was dreaming. I has this blissful feeling within my heart but the sound of my laughter hesitated to come out. To show my joyfulness with the laughter but not quick enough for my disposal and drainage. Peacefully, I followed the natural movements and had forgotten the change about death. Hence, I have entered the tranquil and vacuous naturalness to become integrated completely as one.

Section B What is meant by 'the True Man?' The True men of old did not reject (the views of) the few; they did not seek to accomplish (their ends) like heroes (before others); they did not lay plans to attain those ends. Being such, though they might make mistakes, they had no occasion for repentance; though they might succeed, they had no self-complacency. Being such, they could ascend the loftiest heights without fear; they could pass through water without being made wet by it; they could go into fire without being burnt; so it was that by their knowledge they ascended to and reached the Dao. The True men of old did not dream when they slept, had no anxiety when they awoke, and did not care that their food should be pleasant. Their breathing came deep and silently. The breathing of the true man comes (even) from his heels, while men generally breathe (only) from their throats. When men are defeated in argument, their words come from their gullets as if they were vomiting. Where lusts and desires are deep, the springs of the Heavenly are shallow. The True men of old knew nothing of the love of life or of the hatred of death. Entrance into life occasioned them no joy; the exit from it awakened no resistance. Composedly they went and came. They did not forget what their beginning had been, and they did not inquire into what their end would be. They accepted (their life) and rejoiced in it; they forgot (all fear of death), and returned (to their state before life). Thus there was in them what is called the want of any mind to resist the Dao, and of all attempts by means of the Human to assist the Heavenly. Such were they who are called the True men. Being such, their minds were free from all thought; their demeanour was still and unmoved; their foreheads beamed simplicity. Whatever coldness came from them was like that of autumn; whatever warmth came from them was like that of spring. Their joy and anger assimilated to what we see in the four seasons. They did in regard to all things what was suitable, and no one could know how far their action would go. Therefore the sagely man might, in his conduct of war, destroy a state without losing the hearts of the people; his benefits and favours might extend to a myriad generations without his being a lover of men. Hence he who tries to share his joys with others is not a sagely man; he who manifests affection is not benevolent; he who observes times and seasons (to regulate his conduct) is not a man of wisdom; he to whom profit and injury are not the same is not a superior man; he who acts for the sake of the name of doing so, and loses his (proper) self is not the (right) scholar; and he who throws away his person in a way which is not the true (way) cannot command the service of others. Such men as Hu Bu-jie, Wu Guang, Bo-yi, Shu-Qi, the count of Ji, Xu-yu, Ji Ta, and Shen-tu Di, all did service for other men, and sought to secure for them what they desired, not seeking their own pleasure. The True men of old presented the aspect of judging others aright, but without being partisans; of feeling their own insufficiency, but being without flattery or cringing. Their peculiarities were natural to them, but they were not obstinately attached to them; their humility was evident, but there was nothing of unreality or display about it. Their placidity and satisfaction had the appearance of joy; their every movement seemed to be a necessity to them. Their accumulated attractiveness drew men's looks to them; their blandness fixed men's attachment to their virtue. They seemed to accommodate themselves to the (manners of their age), but with a certain severity; their haughty indifference was beyond its control. Unceasing seemed their endeavours to keep (their mouths) shut; when they looked down, they had forgotten what they wished to say. They considered punishments to be the substance (of government, and they never incurred it); ceremonies to be its supporting wings (and they always observed them); wisdom (to indicate) the time (for action, and they always selected it); and virtue to be accordance (with others), and they were all-accordant. Considering punishments to be the substance (of government), yet their generosity appeared in the (manner of their) infliction of death. Considering ceremonies to be its supporting wings, they pursued by means of them their course in the world. Considering wisdom to indicate the time (for action), they felt it necessary to employ it in (the direction of) affairs. Considering virtue to be accordance (with others), they sought to ascend its height along with all who had feet (to climb it). (Such were they), and yet men really thought that they did what they did by earnest effort. In this way they were one and the same in all their likings and dislikings. Where they liked, they were the same; where they did not like, they were the same. In the former case where they liked, they were fellow-workers with the Heavenly (in them); in the latter where they disliked, they were co-workers with the Human in them. The one of these elements (in their nature) did not overcome the other. Such were those who are called the True men.

The second part of Chapter 6 was compared with all the stars in describing a "natural person" gradually rendering into 'Tao'. Only a 'natural person" can sense 'Tao', and 'Tao' is "natural(wu wei) and formless" but also in eternally existed. In order to sense and observe 'Tao', it must be 'formless' and 'selfless'. These two paragraphs are the main theme of the text. There must be a "natural person", in order, to have true knowledge. What was considered to be a "natural person"...??? The "natural person" in the ancient, does not depend on the people nor lean on an individual; does not vaingloriously to glorify his own success by dwelling on top of others; also, does not plan on small things. For this kind of person, one will not regret if an opportunity was passed by; and he will not be smug if caught up with a fortune. For this kind of person, he will not tremble even he climbed in high places; he doesn't get wet when he's in the water; he doesn't feel the heat when entered into the fire. Those who can be like so are only those who have wisdom and able go through the passage of the Great Tao. A 'natural person' in the ancient, does not dream asleep, there was no worry when he has awaken; he does not ask for good taste when he eats food; his breath was deep when he breathes. A "natural person" depends the heel of the foot when he breathes, but the ordinary people were depending on the throat. When subdued by others, his speech were become stuttered. Those who were extravagant and with high hopes; their innate wisdom are very shallow. A "natural person" in the ancient, does not know how to praise life nor how to censure death; not happy when was born; also not decline when entering death; left with carefree; come as one pleases. Not forgetting where one came from; also not willing to find out where one came from; accepting any situations with joyfulness; forgetting about life and death as if one was returned to the initial natural state. Thus this is called not using the one's wisdom within the heart to ruin the Great Tao; also it was not using any resultant factor from the human action to assist 'naturalness'. This is called the "natural person". Like this kind of person, within the heart, one forgets all what was around oneself. One's face was calm and peaceful, his face was innocent and serious; it's cold like the winter, it's warm like the spring. The joyfulness or indignation without any warning seems like the four changing seasons. There was nothing which is comparable with any external matter and no one can explore the true meaning of the spiritual world. Hence, the ancient sages used force to destroy a hostile state without loosing the heart of those people; given benefit and grace throughout the times, but not given nepotism to anyone. One who was in favor of obtaining materialistic leisure is not a sage; one having nepotism in mind was not considered to be 'benevolent'; one who waits for the moment of opportunity to go into action is not virtuous; one who cannot see a conflict of interests may not be considered as a gentleman; one who handles affairs for fame and lost the inherent quality of oneself is not a scholar; one who sacrifice his life which doesn't match his own character is not the one that can be a servant to the people. An ancient "natural person", one's body expression was towering but not restrainted; it seems insufficient but, yet, not to inherit; one's attitude was clam and natural, standing above all but not persistent nor stubborn, one's mind was opened, broad, vacuous but not ostentatious; happy and cheerful seems like extra joyful, each move seems like it was done unwillingly. One's facial expression was friendly causing people to approach him willingly, associated with people virtuously and toleration and let people to felt like to be depended on; one's bearing was broad like the whole wide world. One who was bold and inhibited and had never been restricted by anything, broad vision and recondite seems like liking to enclosed oneself, inattentive seems like one has forgotten what to say. One treated the criminal law as the fundamental principle, and the ritual as one's assistance, using all the knowledge in hand to wait for the moment of opportune, using the virtue of Tao to comply with the natural principles. It seems like saying that the people with legs are able to climb the hills, then they thought that they are the one who was diligent in walking. Therefore, people said that what they were fond of are completely as one, people were not fond of is also completely as one. Those things that were the same are integrated, those things that were not the same are also integrated. Those things that were integrated are in the same category with 'naturalness'. Those things that were not integrated are in the same category with humans. Naturalness and humans are not possible to be opposite with each other but mutually transcended, those who were possessed with this kind of knowledge are considered to be a "natural person".

So,...you're saying that you, and those you imagined, existed in your dream last night? No,...he who pretends the world exists (vi. to stand alone; have actual being)is ignorant, according to Buddha. In today's broadening quantum culture, only the uneducated would dare argue that the world exists. However, regardless of quantum cosmology and irrefutuable proof that, as Max Planck said a hundred years ago, "As a man who has devoted his whole life to the most clear headed science, to the study of matter, I can tell you as a result of my research about atoms this much: There is no matter as such." ,...through my own direct experience, there is no world in the Present,...it (the world) is only a perception of the past,...and the past, to me, does not exist. "Existence really is an imperfect tense that never becomes a present." Friedrich Nietzsche As for post #44 the full quote was:

The second part of Chapter 6 was compared with all the stars in describing a "natural person" gradually rendering into 'Tao'. Only a 'natural person" can sense 'Tao', and 'Tao' is "natural(wu wei) and formless" but also in eternally existed. In order to sense and observe 'Tao', it must be 'formless' and 'selfless'. These two paragraphs are the main theme of the text. There must be a "natural person", in order, to have true knowledge. What was considered to be a "natural person"...??? The "natural person" in the ancient, does not depend on the people nor lean on an individual; does not vaingloriously to glorify his own success by dwelling on top of others; also, does not plan on small things. For this kind of person, one will not regret if an opportunity was passed by; and he will not be smug if caught up with a fortune. For this kind of person, he will not tremble even he climbed in high places; he doesn't get wet when he's in the water; he doesn't feel the heat when entered into the fire. Those who can be like so are only those who have wisdom and able go through the passage of the Great Tao. A 'natural person' in the ancient, does not dream asleep, there was no worry when he has awaken; he does not ask for good taste when he eats food; his breath was deep when he breathes. A "natural person" depends the heel of the foot when he breathes, but the ordinary people were depending on the throat. When subdued by others, his speech were become stuttered. Those who were extravagant and with high hopes; their innate wisdom are very shallow. A "natural person" in the ancient, does not know how to praise life nor how to censure death; not happy when was born; also not decline when entering death; left with carefree; come as one pleases. Not forgetting where one came from; also not willing to find out where one came from; accepting any situations with joyfulness; forgetting about life and death as if one was returned to the initial natural state. Thus this is called not using the one's wisdom within the heart to ruin the Great Tao; also it was not using any resultant factor from the human action to assist 'naturalness'. This is called the "natural person". Like this kind of person, within the heart, one forgets all what was around oneself. One's face was calm and peaceful, his face was innocent and serious; it's cold like the winter, it's warm like the spring. The joyfulness or indignation without any warning seems like the four changing seasons. There was nothing which is comparable with any external matter and no one can explore the true meaning of the spiritual world. Edited to add: Hence, the ancient sages used force to destroy a hostile state without loosing the heart of those people; given benefit and grace throughout the times, but not given nepotism to anyone. One who was in favor of obtaining materialistic leisure is not a sage; one having nepotism in mind was not considered to be 'benevolent'; one who waits for the moment of opportunity to go into action is not virtuous; one who cannot see a conflict of interests may not be considered as a gentleman; one who handles affairs for fame and lost the inherent quality of oneself is not a scholar; one who sacrifice his life which doesn't match his own character is not the one that can be a servant to the people.

If I said I was enlightened, what would that mean? I say enlightened and you grasp an idea, a definition from what you've learned about it, attach it to the idea, and thus decide whether or not I am or am not, based on what you've learned. Be done with knowledge. So long as you search for enlightenment you will never find it. These answers you seek, the definitions you set down are not answers at all, there are no answers, just experience. Is there a now? Is there not a now? It doesn't matter. You seek something that can't be sought, because you have not lost it in the first place, you just don't see it, even though it is right there. Ahh... salvation, nirvana, buddhahood, these are all illusory, they do not exist, because there is nothing to save or transcend. You simply are and so long as you are not satisfied with being what you are, then you will seek to be something else and everyone who offers you something to help you alleviate what you believe is the disease of being, you will run after them seeking it, just like a miner who hears of gold. And perhaps when you find it, if you follow the path to the end and hold it, or not hold it, as the case may be, you may also find satisfaction, or find what you were searching for, but in the end that is illusory as well. You find the answer, but the world does not disappear. You ate, shat, and slept before, you will eat, shit, and sleep afterwards. Oh but now I see the dream, well the fact is you were never dreaming, rather you were simply living, and now that you see things differently, are you no longer living? There is no salvation or cessation from being the "you" you have become in this life. If you think the answer lies in "now" then you are misleading yourself. The problem with so many people on this board, and you included, is that you feel you must be teachers, but the fact is so long as you seek to be a teacher, you are never a teacher. We can only be students. Philosophy is for foolish people. It gives no answers, because the answers are temporal and transient, the only thing that will satisfy your curiosity is experience. When I say give up your beliefs, I am telling you that your beliefs are keeping you from experiencing the actuality of what we are. Go back and examine each and every idea that makes up "you" and tell me what you are. You can't do it, because the you that existed before you became you has no definition, it is an experience. Yet when you experience you before you became you, then you can begin to experience life and see everything that came afterwards with clarity and you will have no questions, because there will be no need for answers. Also, what's with all the name calling and finger pointing. If you want me to be a Christian, I'll kindly be a Christian, there's really no way for me not to be, because Aaron to you is a Christian, but what I would point out is that there are no Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, or Jews, there are just people being defined by those so attached to the temporal, that they can't see them for what they really are. If you stopped defending yourself and trying to misdirect conversations when people start punching holes in your philosophy, perhaps you could begin to see that there is no such thing as truth or untruth, or now or past, there simply is what is. You're so fond of exercises it seems, so I would offer you one that might help, examine yourself and your children and tell me where you begin and your children end. Aaron

--- Work in Progress Alert --- 2. 第二部分至“而比于列星”，从描写“真人”逐步转为述说“道”，只有“真人”才能体察“道”，而“道”是“无为无形”而又永存的，因而体察“道”就必须“无人”、“无我”。这两段是全文论述的主体。 The second part of Chapter 6 was compared with all the stars in describing a "natural person" gradually rendering into 'Tao'. Only a 'natural person" can sense 'Tao', and 'Tao' is "natural(wu wei) and formless" but also in eternally existed. In order to sense and observe 'Tao', it must be 'formless' and 'selfless'. These two paragraphs are the main theme of the text. 况且有了“真人”方才有真知。什么叫做“真人”呢？古时候的“真人”，不倚众凌寡，不自恃成功雄踞他人，也不图谋琐事。像这样的人，错过了时机不后悔，赶上了机遇不得意。象这样的人，登上高处不颤慄，下到水里不会沾湿，进入火中不觉灼热。这只有智慧能通达大道境界的人方才能像这样。 There must be a "natural person", in order, to have real knowledge. What was considered to be a "natural person"...??? The "natural person" in the ancient, does not depend on the people nor lean on an individual; does not vainglorious his success by dwelling on top of others; also, does not plan on small things. For this kind of person, one will not regret if an opportunity was missed; and he will not be dogmatic if caught up with a fortune. For this kind of person, he will not tremble even he climbed in high places; he doesn't get wet when he's in the water; he doesn't feel the heat when entered into the fire. Those who can be like so are only the those who has wisdom and able go through the passage of the Great Tao. 古时候的“真人”，他睡觉时不做梦，他醒来时不忧愁，他吃东西时不求甘美，他呼吸时气息深沉。 A 'natural person' in the ancient, does not dream asleep, there was no worry when he has awaken; he does not ask for good taste when he eats food; his breath was deep when he breathes. “真人”呼吸凭借的是着地的脚根，而一般人呼吸则靠的只是喉咙。被人屈服时，言语在喉前吞吐就像哇哇地曼语。那些嗜好和欲望太深的人，他们天生的智慧也就很浅。 A "natural person" depends the heel of the foot when he breathes, but the ordinary people were depending on the throat. When subdued by others, his speech were become stuttered. Those who were extravagant and with high hopes; their innate wisdom are very shallow. 古时候的“真人”，不懂得喜悦生存，也不懂得厌恶死亡；出生不欣喜，入死不推辞；无拘无束地就走了，自由自在地又来了罢了。不忘记自己从哪儿来，也不寻求自己往哪儿去，承受什么际遇都欢欢喜喜，忘掉死生像是回到了自己的本然，这就叫做不用心智去损害大道，也不用人为的因素去帮助自然。 A "natural person" in the ancient, does not know how to praise life nor how to censure death; not happy when was born; also not decline when entering death; left with carefree; come as one pleases. Not forgetting where one came from; also not willing to find out where one came from; accepting any situations with joyfulness; forgetting about life and death as if one was returned to the initial natural state. Thus this is called not using the one's wisdom from the heart to ruin the Great Tao; also it was using and factor from human action to assist 'naturalness'. 这就叫“真人”。像这样的人，他的内心忘掉了周围的一切，他的容颜淡漠安闲，他的面额质朴端严；冷肃得像秋天，温暖得像春天，高兴或愤怒跟四时更替一样自然无饰，和外界事物合宜相称而没有谁能探测到他精神世界的真谛。 This is called the "natural person". Like this kind of person, within the heart, one forgets all what were around oneself. One's face was calm and peaceful, His face was innocent and serious; it's cold like the winter, it's warm like the spring. The joyfulness or indignation without any expression seem like the four changing seasons. There was nothing which is comparable with the external matter and no one can explore the true meaning of the spiritual world. Edited to add: Hence, the ancient sages used force to destroy a hostile state without loosing the heart of those people; given benefit and grace throughout the times, but not given nepotism to anyone. One who was in favor of obtaining materialistic leisure is not a sage; one having nepotism in mind was not considered to be 'benevolent'; one who waits for the moment of opportunity to go into action is not virtuous; one who cannot see a conflict of interests may not be considered as a gentleman; one who handles affairs for fame and lost the inherent quality of oneself is not a scholar; one who sacrifice his life which doesn't match his own character is not the one that can be a servant to the people. Note: The phrases in bold are not translated due to the fact that they are too esoteric and philosophical beyond comprehension. The ancient "natural person", one's body expression was towering but not restrainted; it seems insufficient but, yet, not to inherit; one's attitude was clam and natural, standing above all but not persistent nor stubborn, one's mind was opened, broad, vacuous but not ostentatious; happy and cheerful seems like extra joyful, each move seems like it was done unwillingly. One's facial expression was friendly causing people to approach him willingly, associated with people virtuously and toleration and let people to felt like to be depended on; one's bearing was broad like the whole wide world. One was bold and inhibited and had never been restricted by anything, broad vision and recondite seems like liking to enclosed oneself, inattentive seems like one has forgotten what to say. One treated the criminal law as the fundamental principle, and the ritual as one's assistance, using all the knowledge in hand to wait for the moment of opportune, using the virtue of Tao to comply with the natural principles. It seems like saying that the people with legs are able to climb the hills, then they thought that they are the one who was diligent in walking. Therefore, people said that what they were fond of are completely as one, people were not fond of is also completely as one. Those things that were the same are integrated, those things that were not the same are also integrated. Those things that were integrated are in the same category with 'naturalness'. Those things that were not integrated are in the same category with humans. Naturalness and humans are not possible to be opposite with each other but mutually transcended, those who were possessed with this kind of knowledge were considered to be a "natural person".

WOW...so some pretty gnarly stuff happened last night XD, it scared the shit out of me . I had gotten up to take a leak, went back to bed. I fell asleep and started dreaming, not a lot of the dream passed when suddenly my eyes were opened. It was weird cause I was sleeping and the transition went to some crazy shit that was going on in my room. It sounded like I was falling through the sky at like 2,000miles an hour XD crazy buzzing my whole body vibrating. I could see some pretty weird things in my room so I immediatly closed my eyes. So right now I'm scared for my life haha my body is like paralyzed can't move or even speak for that matter. I try to shout but it's impossible. I hear a lady saying something and it felt as if I was falling or moving upwards. There was also like a sinking sensation. My first reaction, without doing anything was to chant om mani padme hum. It happened naturally. As I just started the mantra I felt relief and ease and it was as if my body was lowered and "let go". I dunno if it was just good timing, like I was exiting whatever the heck was happening. My theory is that's usually what happens when we go asleep but I somehow didn't do the process fully, I awoke halfway through my journey to the astral or some crazy shit like that haha. There's also another theory I have about something taking me away but I hope it's not that LMFAO!