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to form a view about things is to land in the extremes of affirmation and negation... As you need to affirm something about something, it does not go beyond the extremes of 'there is' and 'is not'. Everything is a magical display, utterly unestablished and dream-like, from samsara to nirvana, apples, dependent origination, emptiness. While empty it vividly appears. This is not a contradiction but simply the way things are. To cling to wisdom and right view means you have established that there is wisdom, there is right view. Heart sutra says, no attainment, no suffering and end of suffering, no ignorance and no wisdom. Not even an emptiness. Just a magical display... Where is and is not do not apply.

I am simply pointing out that one should understand how view, experience and realization are interconnected... Previously the dream-like realization arose but it didn't occur to me its implications on view. So I missed the essence and purpose of prajna wisdom, how it leads to liberation...

It is possible to eradicate the view 'there is' and 'is not'. How? Through the realization of the twofold 'non-inherency'. For example before anatta one clings to a sense of an inherent awareness. One keeps referring back to an awareness that appears very real and is 'always here'. One keeps coming back to that sense... Why does this clinging keep arising? Simply speak: it is the view 'there is' an awareness, as an inherent, independent and permanent reality. This view is the cause of clinging and referencing back to an awareness. But it is possible to forever stop refering back to an awareness or background. It is the realization that 'seeing is just the seen' - awareness is simply all self-luminous transient manifestation. As such there is no longer clinging to the notion of 'there is' with regards to awareness. 'There is' cannot apply to awareness because awareness is an ungraspable process, it is not an entity. As such, a burden is lifted, a tendency to cling is released via realization. Anatta releases the view 'there is' or 'is not' with regards to a subjective self, body, awareness, etc. Similarly the realization of the emptiness of objects further releases various clingings on things simply by seeing how 'there is' does not apply to reality. Everything is dream like and apparitional, like a magic show. So you see, it is entirely possible to be free from views of 'there is' and 'is not'. In fact if you still believe that there is inherent awareness after anatta, something is very wrong. It probably means you experienced no-mind but the realization of anatta hasn't arisen. When you contemplate on the implications of view, you will come to a realization of how pervasive view is, and what is the fundamental core of view (is and is not) and how every suffering and clinging is simply a manifestation of view. Thusness has been hinting at me what I missed (he told me I haven't realized what view is but did not tell me what it was as he wanted me to find out for myself)... I considered deeply before realizing what it is about.

It has been said, written and typed that bodhidharma stared at a wall for nine years and achieved enlightenment. What do you think his method of wall gazing consists of? I think he may did tranquility meditation while gazing the wall. But there are pictures of him holding two hands in an upwards cupped position at the level of his qihai. This may imply that he focuses on the second chakra directly behind the qihai in the middle path and that he may have practiced some sort of inner alchemy during his meditations. I tried the wall gazing technique with void meditation before sleep, just gazing on the ceiling until my eyelids close due to tiredness, and then I strain to open them again, and continuing the gaze on the ceiling. This is a great way to go to sleep. You get to see random images propping up too. Years ago I tried this for a while and sometimes had the beginning of out of body experience, usually accompanied by strong electrical vibrations while having physical body paralysis. One time I was out of my body, I could see my body standing a few feet away. But it could be a dream

I have just come to a new realisation of the implications of views in daily life. I could have misunderstood what goldisheavy meant but I think it has to do with the fields of meaning. I have realised how ideas, beliefs, notions, views pervade our life and causes attachment. I now see that every single attachment is an attachment to view, which, no matter what it is, comes to two basic clinging: the view 'there is' and the view 'there isn't'. I started by noticing how in the past I had a sense of self, body and awareness... That these all seem so real to me and I kept coming back to that subjective sense and this is no longer the case now: I don't even have a sense of a body nowadays. Then I realized that all these clingings are related to view. The view of There is.... Self, body, mind, awareness, world, whatever. Because of this clinging on to things as existent, they appear real to us and we cling to them. The only way to eradicate such clingings is to remove the root of clinging: the view of 'there is' and 'there isn't'. The realization of anatta removes the view of 'there is self', 'there is awareness' as an independent and permanent essence. Basically, any views about a subjective self is removed through the insight that "seeing is just the seen", the subject is always only its objective constituents. There is no more sense of self, body, awareness, or more precisely there is no clinging to a "there is" with regards to such labels. It is seen that these are entirely ungraspable processes. In short the clinging and constant referencing to an awareness, a self dissolves, due to the notion "there is" such things are being eradicated. The realization of dream-like reality removes the view of 'there are objects', the universe, the world of things... One realizes what heart sutra meant by no five skandhas. This is basically the same realization as anatta, except that it impacts the view "there is" and "there isn't" in terms of the objective pole, in contrast to the earlier insight that dissolves "there is" of a subjective self. What I have overlooked all these while is the implications of views and how the thicket of view causes all clingings and suffering and what underpins those thicket of views, and how realization affects and dissolves these views. Related stuff: A view is a fundamental belief one holds about reality. For example, "everything exists" (sarva asti) .... The root of both these mistaken positions is "is" and "is not" -- for example "I exist now, and I will continue to exist after death" or "I exist now but when I die I will cease to exist". ~ Loppon Namdrol And http://nickdowntherabbithole.blogspot.com/2011/07/conversations-breakthrough.html#more

I dare to put my own life on the line here that there is. I have seen other intelligent creatures out there. I was on a boat when I saw these highly intelligent creatures. Some guy was with me and he called them dolphin and whale. He was actually shocked that I've never seen it before. He claimed that these creatures were actually more intelligent then humans and had a more complex way of communicating. That they could dream while still awake and stuff like that. The reason why we never discovered these intelligent creatures is because they're in the water so often! Not only that, its hard to communicate with them. I was like "we come in peace!" and that dolphin did not even hear me! I can not shout harder them that. We've got to find a way to talk with these intelligent creatures. Perhaps they can share tales with us of aditional intelligent creatures that live even deeper perhaps. I got really excited when I found out we're not the only intelligent creature in the universe Try asking fishermen or captains of a ship, they will tell you the same thing I did.

that may have been the best version of house of the rising sun i ever heard. i do like the ones where they play the words of amazing grace to the tune of the house of the rising sun..... somehow i think ralis dont like country music too much i did see al dimeola in the 80's..... yes, jimmy rogers is music royalty, looks for the emoticon with the crown.... so how about alternative country? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T7eHZxJA-WM (( 129 views!!! on youtube )) this one kinda sums up my mood this morning http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DAXnEI6-4ag and i found this comment below it op Comments * The 90s manifested the unfinished anger of the 60s in the most ineffectual fashion possible. It was an era of impotent rage at the powers that be. We all still dream of a better day, made by the people lifting each other up with our own hands instead of being crushed by the mighty. They expend all of their energy making sure that day never comes for us. Better days are coming my friends, and they are born from waste, excess and consumption taken so far we all hurt. anyways,,,

In my opinion, Steve... I agree with the first sentence. However, i doubt the manner in which the Bardo states have been investigated, expounded and validated by the various lineages in Tibet, including the Bons, can be labelled dogmatic in the least. After all, the Bardo states are not some occurrences restricted to after-death events, as in life, each moment transitioning to the next is as much a Bardo as the greater, more profound crossing-overs. Therefore, in Buddhism, or at least in Tibetan Buddhism, there is as much, if not more encouragement to investigate the Bardos of living as there are in the Bardos of dying and after death. Upon deeper introspection, isnt it true that we have to learn to die to each moment in order to fully live the next? Perhaps its when one is unable to fully understand or accept this simple truth that karmic baggage gets accumulated. One way to familiarize with this is thru gaining awareness during the Bardo of waking/dream transition. From Chogyal Namkhai Norbu: "When one falls asleep, one becomes disengaged from the karmic traces of the material body, the karmic traces of vision, and the karmic traces of mental functioning. These karmic traces, during the waking state, manifests as one's material body, the external appearances one perceives, and the functioning of one's mind respectively. Why do we speak of being disengaged? From one's falling asleep right up to the moment when dreams begin, there is no functioning of the mind and one finds oneself in the real condition of existence. In this, one will experience to a certain degree a merging with what is called the natural clear light (intrinsic illumination and liberation of 'self' attachment)." Such is what has been taught by the great scholars across all the different lineages - we, however, should not accept this on blind faith. We can find out, or not, if this is actually the case. Buddhist doctrinal teachings only become dogma for those who are too lazy, too blind or too headstrong to look deeper and inquire into their efficacy (or not). When the basis of the path is one where self-inquiry forms the crux of the Teaching, it becomes doubtful if one can actually voice disingenuity. After all, the Buddha did encourage his 'followers' to doubt until they have investigated fully his words. And this way of self-inquiry and promoting experiential insights have been the norm since. Which explains why threads of this nature, accusations of buddhist fanaticism, makes no sense. Looks like it was started as a deliberate attempt to cause some sort of schism. A grave error, indeed. Namaste.

I see. I don't mean that everything is falsely apprehended in the relative sense. What I mean is that everything is really just like an illusion. For example a red rose to a human is a black flower to a dog is a 99.999 percent formless space to a quantum physicist - all that we see are merely a dependently originated appearance that appears solid but is really all just dream-like mental visions.

I'm not so certain about what you mean by field of meanings. But the difference seems to be that the deluded mind sees meanings or perceptions that arise in his mind as rigid realities, while the wise mind simply sees it within the frame of fluidity. I'm not sure it is possible to always achieve one's aims. This idea depends heavily on how the fool and the wise see "aims." The wise can always achieve aims by not having that aim be so specific or unrealistic, but I doubt this means the wise man can dream up to become the dictator of the world and succeed. Understanding limits of one's control is another facet of wisdom. I think I somehow replied to the latter section of your post while replying to Vaj's post above. A lot of reflecting lately on perception, recognition, awareness, experience...

If you cling to notions of wisdom and ignorance then obviously you haven't realized shunyata, once shunyata is realized you'll see that even wisdom and ignorance is ungraspable and unlocatable like a dream. Heart sutra: ...no ignorance, no cessation of ignorance... no attainment, no wisdom...

It's reflected in your beliefs of what you think is superstition reflecting lack of experience. I do sitting practice from time to time, though I experience the state of meditation very often and often in dream states. I did very intense practice for years, practice much like a monk in a cave would practice, for hours upon hours daily, all day, sleeping in a way that made it practice as well. Practicing like this, one compresses lifetimes worth of most peoples level of practice. As the energy doesn't dissipate like it does for instance if you meditate in the morning, but spend your day trading stocks and forgetting your state of mind, but come home and meditate again in the evening to get your state of mind back. This type of practice that most people do dissipates the energy that could have been utilized for going deeper. I know, not everyone can take a vacation from regular life and move into an Ashram or Monastery. I did at the age of 20 though. The experience arises a lot. I live with my wife and my mother in law, and showing compassion is normal as they are both in need. Do you think that compassion can't hit you over the head too though? Or slap you in the back with a stick like a Zen Master? Do you feel compassion has to manifest within the scope of your pre-conceptions? On a daily basis, sometimes, if the opportunity arises, many times per day. All the time, even when talking about Buddhism, there is something more happening, contemplation, awareness of my state of mind, mantra (which is very powerful for me as it carries the energy of deep meditative states of which I've made samadhi impressions in my brain through.) Even when I'm disagreeing with you and challenging your state and understanding of enlightenment. I doubt those that claim to have enlightenment without having followed a living lineage, more so than I do who follow a time tested, genuine lineage. The ego is so tenacious, so subtle. We as living human beings need living guides. Those that say they don't, I really feel are truly fooling themselves. I'm not just talking about seeing everyone you meet as your guru, in that sort of way. I mean a living example of Buddhahood that comes from a genuine lineage of time tested tradition that has actually liberated people to the degree that the scriptures talk about.

I'm not a Buddha. Why do you cling to the relative view of emptiness? You are still not understanding how ultimately, everything is always empty of inherent existence, there is no relativity, there is no dependent origination, (read Heart Sutra) thus this intuitive insight is permanent for those who have seen right through themselves to the experiential awareness of emptiness on every personal level. They've emptied their personal cycle of dependent origination, on the deepest intuitive level of their own psyche. Buddhahood is a permanent insight beyond the mind, of the mind that has this insight. You really should study more to at least have this understanding intellectually. I have glimpsed this enough to understand how Buddhahood is not at all a wavering state of insight, which is what makes it a worthy goal for anyone. I have also read enough teachings by Buddhas from history to know that this is so. Having a permanent state of insight does not necessitate a self abiding soul. Tell me, are you aware that you are you from morning to night, through dream and waking? One may have momentary insights that help transcend the self bondage, but none the less, you always know that it's you transcending yourself, or of you being angry, being loving, being sad, being lonely, whatever. This is a permanent awareness that you have, even when you die, you'll know that it's you that is dying. It's you that is reading this. You will also know when you are a Buddha, and you will always be a Buddha once you realize this. This is what the Mahayana Mahaparinirvana Sutra means when it talks about atman. It's the constant realization of the Dharmakaya (which basically just means shunyata).

When you try to explain nuclear fusion to an ant, things might end up badly. Communication with other species has never gone well. I might feel sad about the fact that people sometimes worry too much about aliens visiting us while first of all, we have not even been able to make solar energy our primary power source. Secondly, we have not even succeeded in communicating with dolphins, whales, elephants. We have not yet discussed politics and business with cows and chickens. We have never even been able to peacefully live amongst apes and gorilla's. How can we make room for aliens that have technology consisting of power that requires more responsibility then any of our wisest gods could ever dream of having. I say its time for us to pay a visit to the dolphins and whales. They are the real intelligent creatures and they live right here on earth.

Saying that you will never become deluded or doubtful is a pipe dream. You are saying that your realization cannot be affected. You are saying that it is not subject to change. According to your own belief in dependent arising, logically, wisdom cannot be without ignorance. What if you did get deluded by self-views, though? What would you do? Regardless of how fast or slow it changes, your realization has the potential to change. Everything does. That means that it is possible for ignorance to creep in. It is possible for your realization to fall apart. And you will push that ignorance that creeps in out via your realizations. Correct? Just as I said, you are craving for permanence.

You still don't get it. When you wake up from a dream of monsters, you just get on with life without ever believing in a real monster. You simply do not even give a second thought about monsters again! Why the hell would you want to keep thinking about whether there is monster or not? That's already seen through and dropped, you just move on. Ditto to notions of 'self'.

"The self is unfindable" - "In seeing there is just the seen, no seer" - is not a thought, but a direct realization that ends all reification of self. There is no self to cling, and no no-self to cling. There is in seeing just the seen, which is not a thought. A seer is a thought-construct, like a thought construct of santa claus. It has as much reality as rabbits with horns. It is imagined, fabricated. 'There is no santa claus' is also a thought, but once you see that santa claus is false, you do not cling to the thought 'there is no santa claus'. To cling to the thought 'there is no santa claus' implies you are still uncertain whether there is santa claus or not, and you want to cling to a familiar thought to remind yourself. No such problems exist when realization occurs. When you wake up from a nightmare, you do not need to remind yourself that there is no dream-monster to comfort yourself. You simply woke up (from delusion, from fabrication, from imagination), period. That is why right view is needed, with right contemplation and investigation, and when realization occurs, the view (that there is no santa claus, no rabbits with horns, no self/agent, for example) itself naturally dissolves. It should not be done prematurely. No, I do not attempt to bring up a thought of 'no self'.

You asked me what I am concerned with. I am not even concerned about suffering. Concerning is a form of suffering. See highlighted: When Bodhisattva Avalokiteshvara was practicing the profound Prajna Paramita, he illuminated the Five Skandhas and saw that they are all empty, and he crossed beyond all suffering and difficulty. Shariputra, form does not differ from emptiness; emptiness does not differ from form. Form itself is emptiness; emptiness itself is form. So too are feeling, cognition, formation, and consciousness. Shariputra, all Dharmas are empty of characteristics. They are not produced, not destroyed, not defiled, not pure; and they neither increase nor diminish. Therefore, in emptiness there is no form, feeling, cognition, formation, or consciousness; no eyes, ears, nose, tongue, body, or mind; no sights, sounds, smells, tastes, objects of touch, or Dharmas; no field of the eyes up to and including no field of mind consciousness; and no ignorance or ending of ignorance, up to and including no old age and death or ending of old age and death. There is no suffering, no accumulating, no extinction, and no Way, and no understanding and no attaining. Because nothing is attained, the Bodhisattva through reliance on Prajna Paramita is unimpeded in his mind. Because there is no impediment, he is not afraid, and he leaves distorted dream-thinking far behind. Ultimately Nirvana! All Buddhas of the three periods of time attain Anuttara-samyak-sambodhi through reliance on Prajna Paramita. Therefore know that Prajna Paramita is a Great Spiritual Mantra, a Great Bright Mantra, a Supreme Mantra, an Unequalled Mantra. It can remove all suffering; it is genuine and not false. That is why the Mantra of Prajna Paramita was spoken. Recite it like this: Gaté Gaté Paragaté Parasamgaté Bodhi Svaha! End of The Heart of Prajna Paramita Sutra Copyright © 1997 Buddhist Text Translation Society, For permission to reproduce in any format whatsoever, contact: The International Translation Institute 1777 Murchison Drive Burlingame, CA USA, 94010-4504 (415) 692-5912 phone (415) 692-5056 fax

What I've said before about dream interpretation before is that symbols are secondary to the feelings. Because symbols vary from person to person. You might like Avatar: The Last Airbender, but someone else might not like it. So seeing the same symbol could mean very different things to different people. So the questions you should be asking are how you felt when you were doing each things? What were you thinking/feeling when you were watching? What did you think/feel when you realized that you were Aang? What was your purpose in mind when you were asking for help? What was the attitude of the person helping out? What did it feel like before you broke the door with your karate chops? During? After? That kind of stuff.

I've always found it interesting that the TTC makes mention of the 3 treasures of the sage (as Lin Yutang puts it), and yet the TTC never really tells us how he got to be that way. The Nei-Yeh seems to go a bit further into inner cultivation, but still doesn't seem to answer some fundamental questions about this. I've noticed on this forum that there are several different opinions on the inner cultivation thing. There is a line of thought that the Sage becomes the Sage by actively cultivating his inner life and consciously attempting to develop the Te (virtue) of his condition; and there is another line of thought that feels that the best way is to act spontaneously and not actively attempt to change anything on the inside; that things are all natural, of the Tao, and will work out on their own. I think there's tremendous merit to both approaches, and it's a matter of choice. If one acts spontaneously, yet mindfully accepts and understands the lessons in life which are being served up to him, the spontaneous action will certainly lead to the One just as well as the man who intentionally develops his inner self. I've only got one translation of chapter 67 (The Three Treasures) in front of me; it is Yutang's. For purposes of further discussion, if anyone cares to throw other interpretations in his, it might be really valuable for purposes of triangulating this issue; essentially picking the brains of the masters / interpreters (if that is indeed the case) and really looking at the personality qualities of the sage. Lin Yutang - excerpt from Ch. 67: I have Three Treasures; Guard them and keep them safe: The first is Love. The second is, Never too much. The third is, Never be the first in the world. Through Love, one has no fear; Through not doing too much, one has amplitude (of reserve power); Through not presuming to be the first in the world, One can develop one's talent and let it mature. In my opinion, I would assume that this means the Sage is a non-judgmental being. In order to Love all things (seemingly good or seemingly bad) he would not make the judgment in his mind; every being would be worthy of Love, regardless of how vile. The challenge becomes how to love the seemingly vile. Or the argumentative. Or the unkind ones. To realize that he is, in essence, One with the vile ones too. As to Never too much, this seems to go to our fears of lack. We have a fear of not thriving, of not having enough - this seems to be built into us. This explains our national personality, in my opinion, of the panic when the stock market takes a plunge. We're so fearful of not getting all our benefits, not having the 'great American dream'....and yet, we are perfectly content to see our Brother grovel in the sand on the other side of the world with unsanitary drinking water and no place to lay their heads other than a cardboard box. This characteristic of the Sage (Never too much) is a characteristic that we too can develop; but the fear that seems to be hardwired into us can be eliminated by gratitude for what we do have. And an understanding that the only sure thing in life is Change. At any given time, circumstances may change for us, and the Sage will remain in a mentally mobile state in order to receive it without fear. When he says Never be the first in the World, I think the Sage has tempered his ego by this time. He has no more need to contend, he doesn't need to make the most money, be at the top of the corporate ladder; in fact, just the opposite. He may still be at the top of the corporate ladder, but not because he 'needs' to be because he's reacting to a fear of not being good enough inside. I think the Three Treasures (or whatever they're referred to in other translations) is a real key to developing the Sage-like qualities that we seek. If we're not seeking these qualities, why waste the time of being here? Then it's all just words. Any other interesting translations on Chapter 67 that will help triangulate this and flesh the Sage out fully?

:EDIT: This poem called Reading a Zen Scripture: "We must know that all appearances are not what they appear to be; And if we dwell in remainderless nirvana, then there still is remainder. Forget words at the words, and you comprehend all at once; Talk of dreams in a dream is double layers of vacuity. Can you seek fruit along with flowers in the sky? How do you look for fish in a mirage? If controlling movement is meditation, meditation moves; Not meditating, not moving, this is suchness as is." Is actually by Po Chu-i, NOT Wang Wei.

I like to memorize things aswell, but I really fail at this, no matter how hard I try. As soon as I read something I forget. Tao te Ching by memory would be beneficial I guess. Also remember some great poems. Wisdom that you can use on the go. I have no idea why we should memorize things nowadays... Since the birth of paper, an external memory, we no longer need our memories. Especially now people use technology to store great amounts of information. I'm very curious... Why do you like to memorize things? I like to do it too, but thats just because I'm bad at memorizing. My dream would be to recall with great accuracy; huge amounts of text.

That's kind of what I mean by my last post. I've woken up in that state between dream and wakefulness and I sometimes see beings with their arms in my body moving things.

Dream of forever In an instant we exist Awake to your sleep

Mirror for heaven, The sandman is here to stay, Dream of forever.