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Dream on brother. I speak the perspective of traditional scholars of India, based on scriptural references, internal astronomical details and records within the literature, not Max Mueller's version (which too incidentally proves my point about the chronology of the Vedic literature, which includes the Samhitas, Aranyakas, Brahmanas and Upanishads (aka Vedanta)) as predating the Buddha. There are 108 known Upanishads today, of which 10 are the most important. These ten predate Buddha definitely...

Just was wondering what some good books where for beginners in buddhism. I have read some of a tibetan dream yoga book, but other than that I have no solid grasp in the foundations of mindfullness, meditation, ect, ect. Also I have not decided what school I am going to practice (therevada, mahayana, or vajrayana). So I would like some recomendations to some books which cover there differences (or summaries from those with knowledge)

So, reading this, it looks like the only thing that really matters to you in the end, is money? I don't really believe that, but that's where you took it, for your own reasons. That's apparently the yardstick you use to measure the distance people have to go to "pursue their dreams". Dreams always have to involve cold hard cash? What if my dream is to live in a socially fair society that places high standards on ethics and quality of life? What about the people who prefer to work to live and don't see any use in a life wasted living to work? But that's all tangential to what I meant above. "Patriotism", I mean, "My country - love it or leave it", flag-waving, bombs-bursting-in-air, Pledge-Of-Allegiance, hand-on-heart, teary-eyed Patriotism - is an evil but useful tool that the powerful apply to keep the masses docile and manageable. It's the enemy of free-thought and free-will. And, yes, Germany is a place that learned the hard just where it can lead. The original American Tea-Party, circa 1935:

Some spiritual traditions say that the soul leaves the body when asleep, so in that sense dreaming and astral travel are one and the same. A high level practitioner of Bardon's system said, however, that when the body sleeps the astral body (the part that "astral travels") only really displaced by a few inches. So it's not astral travel in the true sense, but it's not like nothing happens. But in a certain sense it also depends on your paradigm. For instances, B.K. Frantzis describes the subtle energy bodies as bodies that become more subtle (you have to go deeper to feel them), but also more expansive. So the qi body is within you but also extends out of you. A "dream world" that mostly consists of your thoughts and emotions would be within you, but to a certain extent be outside of you as well. Any "astral travel" would technically originate from inside you as well- but since those bodies are also significantly more expansive, you could think of it as "traveling", even though from a "meditative" viewpoint you are really just going "deeper and deeper", rather than a more "up and out" sort of direction. But that's just my take. I experiment a lot with lucid dreams, not so much with OBE's, and in fact, I actively try to avoid OBE topics, mostly because I want to do it as fresh as possible. If it really is possible to have a legitimate out of body experience, I shouldn't have to read about it BEFORE it happening to get all the experiences. I should be able to research about it AFTER it and find out about it. That's a bit of a tangent though...

Yeah I agree. My techniques is simple, lay on your back, legs straight, arms by your side, relax the mind and body and remain still. If you get the vibes reported by many OBErs just remain calm not to wake up and roll to the side and start doing whatever Though how can you know the difference between a lucid dream and an out of body experience or Astral Travel? Or are they all the same?

ld4all.com is an excellent start to lucid dreaming from a non-religious related perspective. Here and there you see it written about how various cultures had various spiritual interpretations of dreams. I do a lot of lucid dream stuff. Interesting experiences. If anything it's fun, and I suggest everyone do it.

Hey Scotty, what do you know about the Kunlun taoist dream practice? Chrisn

Kunlun has a dream yoga practice which is Taoist.

So I have been reading a book regarding the Tibetan practice of dream yoga, or what they call 'clear light dreams' which is equivalent to what western psychologists call lucid dreams. I have been interested in the subject of lucid dreaming for awhile, but with only a few books published on the topic directly, I am having to deal with the religious thinking of Tibetan Buddhists to get a concise understanding of dream yoga by adepts. Aside from the Tibetans, I was wondering if this idea of lucid dreaming has been included in the Taoist, Hindu, or other inclusive spiritual practices besides that of the Tibetan.

Do you know any possible associated risks/side effects/dangers of frequently dosing melatonin, but in addition to meditation . . . I'm aware that the UK banned melatonin sometime ago but it's status in the US and many other countries remains unscheduled. I have experienced intense psychedelic level dreams while dosed with melatonin, I think it is a I have gotten into many lucid/trance dream/consciousness states a (valuable?) possible spiritual cheat code providing it offers no ill effects with repetitive, yet responsible use.

On the contrary Tibetan Buddhist practices are some of the most highly developed because of their dream yoga system which from my beginners knowledge, is quite amazing. As for their yoga, I am not to aware of it past the 5 rites, but I am starting to lean out of yoga and look more towards tai chi, qi gong, or karate because of my lack of any real body awareness from yoga..(though there are a select few postures that seem fitting).

I've had dreams of real locations that open up to new areas...but when I would go visit the real physical location, none of it is there. Maybe people are mistaking these dream locations for waking reality...the mind is powerful! Who knows...just another theory, which I tend to lean towards...but reality can be surprising.

Marble, what is the experience of 'I' beyond thoughts and feelings? By thoughts we have language, the ongoing conversation in the head, as well as non-language thoughts such as 'intention' and symbolic gestures experienced in the dream state. There are various types of thoughts. Feelings are always felt in the body and usually correlate to thoughts. Are you saying that the 'I' exists beyond thoughts and feelings? How could you possibly say that when all you have are thoughts and feelings in your experience? Is the 'I' not just a thought/feeling? Thank you

I don't think people understand the real implications of abilities like "telekinesis". Sorry if this sounds negative, but I don't mean to be a bummer and harsh your mellows or anything like that. I just don't know how to put it any nicer than that. We all have an idea of what the world should be like. And we cling to that idea with all we got. Should anything appear contrary to our idea of reality, without special contemplative training, we would become extremely disturbed, scared and lost. This is why mentally ill people have very hard time being functional. They are scared. They don't know what to trust. It's like having no ground to stand on. Hard blatant magic implies the total and utter destruction of the world as you know it. Total. Utter. Gone. No world. No universe. No other people. No things. No dogs or cats. No driveway. No home. No stars or planets. No space or time. When I say "destruction," of course nothing is actually destroyed, but all ideas about it are removed from the depths of your own mind. It's not just that you'd be breaking rules of physics, that's nothing. You'd be breaking the boundary between yourself and the world. What are you? If you're not limited by your body, then what are you? You are not human. That's huge. All your ideas about what you are, what you can and cannot do, would be shattered. You'd have the biggest identity crisis this side of the universe. People sometimes commit suicide from the most minor minor trivial things when they reach midlife crisis. People reach 30-40 and realize they didn't achieve any goals or didn't live the life they wanted (as a human! they want to be a limited human, they have goals, plans, wishes, hopes for the human!), and they hang themselves, or they reinvent themselves. Think what this implies. Not only do most (99.99999999%) people not want any psychic abilities, but people want to remain stupid and limited humans, on purpose. They have goals, wishes, hopes and dreams for those stupid little limited un-psychic mounds of flesh that they all fervently believe they are. They can't just give it all up. Not until they fulfill themselves a million times over and get tired of being a human first. People are so fucking scared of real psychic abilities, that even the slightest hint of them, and they are willing to burn the witch they think has them. That's a lot of people around the world. And the only reason we no longer have witch burnings in the developed world is not because people have matured or become more fearless, or because they have expanded their minds, hell no. The reason why we don't have witch burnings in the developed world is because everyone got utterly convinced that such things simply do not exist. Should people believe they do exist, they could easily revert to witch burning behavior of the past due to tremendous fear. People want to have ground under their feet. They want to be sure that when they open the door of their home, there is a familiar street on the other side. People want to be sure that when they release an object from their hand, it falls to the ground. This is comforting. This is familiar. It's stability. These desires are so deep in our minds we don't even realize they are there. Just me mentioning it is not likely to give you a realization of what I am describing. You have to crack your own reality at least briefly to understand what I am talking about. People think that having a psychic ability is an add-on. It's not. People think that we have Jane over here and add psychic ability and voila, we have psychic Jane. So the formula would be: Jane + psychic training = psychic Jane. Sort of like: Jane + carpentry training = carpenter Jane or Jane + math training = mathematician Jane But having a real magic ability is unlike any mundane ability. Mundane abilities are built by building on top of your core beliefs about reality. Since your core beliefs about reality are untouched, acquiring mundane abilities feels relatively easy and safe to mundane beings. It feels like a step by step process, as you add more conditioning on top of your already-existing conditioning. Supramundane abilities are restored to the original limitless being by uprooting and dissolving the deeply nested core beliefs about reality. This is what makes them unlike anything you've ever known. It's not even training. I say "training", but it's not. It's not like training for a marathon. It's not like lifting weights. It's not rote. It's not repetitive. It's not cycling energy. It's not opening chakras. It's not microcosmic orbit. It's not anything most people are obsessed with doing on this here forum. It's not any of that spiritual confetti. This is why someone who circulates energy is not going to get any powers. And they don't. You won't become immortals. If you conserve your energy, you won't get anything. It's all a waste of time. And of course reality supports what I am saying, because if you test any person on this forum, a la Randi, I can guarantee you they will have no power, and SFJane has been brave and honest enough to realize that in her own training. Good for her. Bravo. Nobody here will have any kind of special power. Why not? You don't do what you need to do to have it. Why not? You don't want to. Deep down, you don't. If you deep down wanted to, you'd pick a practice that opens the gates so to speak. But you don't pick it. Instead you pick something rote, something you can do in the morning every day, something that doesn't ruin your life. You can do it before breakfast, then have your oatmeal, nice and healthy, then go about your day as a limited little lump of human flesh. You need that stability of being human. You need the safety of the known. You need physics to continue to function so that you don't freak out. You have dreams, hopes, plans, goals, wishes that you strive for as a human. You don't want to stop being a human. You don't want to destroy this world. Etc. and so on. You just want to spice this place up! Spicy. You want a little something spicy on top. That's all. The only practice that yields power is contemplation, and even then, contemplation has to be coupled with willingness. You have to be a willing, non-resisting participant. That's huge. To get this kind of willingness you must have tremendous emotional maturity that transcends human emotional maturity. It's when you know everything there is to know about being human. It's when you are utterly, utterly satisfied with being who you are and having lived as you had, and have nothing more to gain from it. It's like you had your fill and now you can do something else. But not until then. If you still enjoy the human games, you can't play the games of immortals. So does this mean you should stop enjoying being human so you can become immortals? Hell no! The dirty secret is that you are already an immortal who magically made this human world. You love all of this. You love this game. You are not yet done playing. There is nothing anywhere that can hurry you up. You cannot contrive anything. You cannot artificially with some kind of practice change your innermost desire. This is why the highest spiritual practices stress that there is no artifice, no practice, no rote training. Why? Because intent has to be clear and if you are applying techniques your intent is still dirty. It's not clear. To understand why this is actually the case, one has to contemplate for a very long time. No, you don't need a master for this. You don't need a Guru. You don't need to be a Buddhist or a Daoist or any ist. You just need to be ready and willing. When you are ready and willing, you'll have the requisite wisdom to know what it is you need to contemplate. You'll be able to sense where it is that limitations emanate from. You'll be able to consider things that most people cannot even consider. So enjoy yourselves. Have fun. Be good to each other. Don't rush anything. When you are ready, you'll start asking different sorts of questions than when you love being human and want to remain human in a human world, with all that it implies, and you just want a little something extra special on top, a little spicy spice on top. A little spicy microcosmic orbit practice. A little spicy chakra practice. Something that is guaranteed not to disturb or change your dream of human in a human world even in the slightest. Something safe. Enjoy!

When I get a chance I'd like to make some more replies but for now I'd like to address two things. The first: What would I do if had the real deal telekinesis? I would hide it at first and prove it to myself. If I could move a piece of paper it stands to reason with more practice I could move several pieces. I'd practice at different ranges with different barricades. I would make TK training stations and do circuits. When I was absolutely sure I could move reasonably impressive objects such as a cinder-block I would then make a video of me moving a cinder-block from ten feet away with my mind. Then I would contact the press. As That Guy stated, I would have my platform to get Randi's attention pretty quick at that point. Then for my trick, I would have James Randi hold the check or facsimile of in his open hand at ten feet away and then I would take the check right out of his hand as many times as people wanted to see it. Promptly after that I would go before the scientific community having just won Randi's challenge and proudly demonstrate the results of so much concentration practice. Then I would disappear into the bush in Australia after a spirit in a dream told me that the human race was not ready for such knowledge. Ha! Psyche! Just kidding. I would be on hand to demo before the world stage that what so many have imagined and longed for was finally true. I would encourage others to learn how to do it and make my training formula available (for a good price) to those that wanted in on it. I would sell my hard won skill and knowledge and help people train for a future of TKs. And I don't mind telling you all that I would gloat a little in front of Mr Randi and every other skeptic with a 'I told you so' winning smile on my face. If there was even one person with a real power that they could prove, I see no reason why they should not also do as I would do and take that million dollar check right out of his hand with their mind. But alas, it has yet to happen and I highly doubt that it will. But I do hope that it happens someday because I have just enough child left in me to think that that would be wonderful. While I do still hope that someone can pull it off, I am not going to go all googly eyed over TK tricks that can only be done under 'perfect' conditions set up by the TKer. You either have it or you don't. You can do it or you can't. None of this 'your negative chi is turning off my powers' crap.

Nice summery Z3N! I think my head just exploded! *BOOM! I was wondering something; I had a strange dream last night that I realised all selfish desires are an illusion. Then I went into some sort of void.. I don't think it was the real deal idk, but it scared the beejeebers out of me.. I felt really lonely, it was desilate and extreamly quite (Zero sound).. I woke up after I realised I was dreaming and as I was coming back to reality I heard this strange static noise... Maybe it was real? :S

I once met an old lady whose greatest joy in life was collecting antiques. Over the decades she became quite an expert... because she found the enterprise so fascinating she created distinctions that you and I would only dream of. She could look at a vase and in a split second recognise the glaze, the firing technique, the decade it was most likely made in and whether it is worth any money. And not only was this with vases... everything from furniture to cutlery to jewellery. Her attention to detail and level of expertise seemed almost magical. My greatest joy is discovering more about myself and others. How we think, feel, move... So I have many distinctions on how we deal with our consciousness, awareness, emotions... how we think... how we relate with one another. Sometimes my (seemingly mundane) insights seem magical to others. Mostly they're nonsensical (imagine being shown the intricacies of the perfect golf swing by a champion golfer when all you want is to get the ball past the windmill at your local crazy golf course). My current through-the-day practice is noticing 3 different perspectives on my thoughts, emotions and moods. I sense the thought from a first person perspective - from inside me... then I sense it from a 2nd person perspective - from outside of me and then from 3rd person perspective - objectively (all possible points of view simultaneously). I watch my awareness, my thoughts, my movement and breathing and how I interact with others.

I don't think that's a necessary consequence. I think a change from considering some things to be internal to your being and others to be external to considering all things to be beyond the self-other boundary is a very very subtle change. It's almost no change at all. Some would say it's not even a change. When I am dreaming, I usually assume the dream world exist in the same way this waking world exists here, externally, independently objectively and so on (well that's not entirely true, but let's simplify). Suppose I become lucid and realize I am dreaming. Suddenly I realize that everything that appears, however legitimately and "physically-looking" it is, is actually a product of my dreaming mind. That can be a very mind-blowing awakening because things in my dream can look so crispy clear, I would swear they were real physical things, so then realizing they are not can be a mix of exhilaration and fear, or maybe not so much, depending on the state of mind I am in. And then what? Do things change? Do things become difficult? Not to me. I can explore the world. Everything is more or less the same. I can chat with people. I can ride the bus. The only difference is that now I can do more things. I can now disappear and reappear somewhere else. I can hypnotize people effortlessly (all the people in the dream seemingly want to do the same things I want to do and I don't have to make any kind of obvious hypnotic effort, but the hypnotic effect just appears on its own). If I am not lucid, this is less likely. If I am not lucid, someone might be arguing with me. But if I am, usually there is no argument. So if I say, "we are going here" we are going there. People don't tell me "no we are not going there." They do exactly as I say and they enjoy it. So being lucid does make things different but I wouldn't call those differences "difficult." So I just described all that in terms of dreaming, because I think it's easier to think about it that way, when it's somewhat removed and compartmentalized from this here occurrence.

I appreciate your curiocity, @apepch7. As you aptly pointed out, having real ancient knowledge may be more than enough to keep some people from "bothering" with any modern practices. However, from the point of view of the current lineage holder, I have to say that, as far as I am concerned, every previous holder of the lineage contributed to our art in one way or another. My contribution may be in the way I manage to translate and explain the art of Qi Dao in the terms understandable to educated contemporaries. My choice of NLP and Hypnosis was based on the numerous similarities between some aspects of these disciplines and the practice of Dream Yoga that form the spiritual foundation of Tibetan Shamanic Qigong. Both NLP and Hypnosis offer some practical approaches that are very effective and free of religious undertones. As you may have read in my book, Once I received religious asylum in the United States, I found myself in a relative spiritual vacuum in this country, so I decided to explore the fields where my knowledge would be appreciated and helpful to the extent I manage to refrain from converting people into Bon Shamanism, which is not within my interests at all. Anyone thinking that a Shaman possessing ancient knowledge should do nothing else but shamanize would be giving the Shaman too little room for growth and development. I cannot say for other Shamans, but the knowledge I possess is alive today exactly because it was not frozen into an unchangeable dogma but continuously evolved and adopted to the needs of the people practicing this living art. Namaste, Lama Tantrapa

Thanks, and I sure hope so, because I want to believe! But you know, it ain't easy to just believe (for me anyway) when the world works the way it does (or seems to) This cool concept came to me in a strange dream actually, was it all Fantasy or Revelation? If I ever find out I'll let you know

Yes, a natural unfolding is IMO better and less traumatizing. Step by step. A rock song we wrote in the 80's: Breaking Through the Barriers, Step by Step, Make it to the Inner Court, There the Secret is Kept, Turn to See You're Surrounded, A Blinding Light is Seen, Open Your Eyes and Realize, This Is Not A Dream ...

Hi contrivedname! Awesome! Glad we can (largely) agree Yes for sure! A few quotes from the Wiki page here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amrita "Amrita or Amrit (Sanskrit: अमृत) is a Sanskrit word that literally means "that which is immortal", and is often referred to in texts as nectar." "Amrit is repeatedly referred to as the drink of the gods, which grants them immortality" "In yogic philosophy (see yoga, Hindu philosophy) amrita is a fluid that can flow from the pituitary gland down the throat in deep states of meditation. It is considered quite a boon: some yogic texts say that one drop is enough to conquer death and achieve immortality." I don't want to hijack the thread here but in short, my wife and I didn't pick the name Amrita Grace. I was told in a dream that this was what we were supposed to name her. The conception of this child has dramatically changed my life, mostly through dreams. It may sound wierd but I was given shaktipat in a dream by my daughter (who looked like she was in her mid 20's in the dream and was the star pupil of a "kundalini facilitation" class). This dramatically changed the energy flow in my body. Also, both my wife and I knew on the 50th day after conception as soon as we woke up that it was going to be a girl due to a mutual dream we had about her. This was confirmed during an ultrasound in late January. There is a bunch of other stuff too but...... Love!

I'm curious if this is possible and if so what benefits (or pitfalls) it may bring? Is it like mixing colors in paint - ex: red + blue = purple. So mixing earth plus fire gives rise to what effect if any? What happens to elements left unused? If they're not mixed in the Dantien is it possible to mix then elsewhere for beneficial effects? I ask because a while ago I had a strange dream. A person in it said when I've learned how to do these things (mix the elements to different effect) I'll have understood Kan and Li.

I browsed through a thread we had a while ago on him, and in one of his posts he said he had the book for free on google books. I read it, and it really vibed with me. So I went out and bought the book, and I read it over from time to time. I find a lot of what he says is stuff I personally have come to believe, or things that I have easily been able to integrate into my practice (I've always enjoyed lucid dreaming, so the parallels he makes with dream states really appealed to me). He teaches some exercises in the book, including some arm swings which reminds me of some stuff that B.K. Frantzis teaches (so is there validity in similarity?) As for the names and stuff.... eh, when I was younger (early teens) I was conned by some martial arts mcdojos, people who said they could teach me how to fight when really they were just luring me in with the name of a certain style. After that I became really adamant about finding out a verifiable lineage and only studying with or from people who could prove that they learned from a legitimate branch of something. But after a while I started to find more and more stuff that either didn't have a verifiable lineage, or was *gasp* something someone had come up with on their own! Some of it vibed with me, some of it didn't. The stuff that did I started to incorporate. So.... for me, personally, I'm caring less and less about someone's name or where it came from, so long as it fits me.

nonsense. rocks love water.- LoVe water. I love biting but I don't need to. Why is this reminding me of my initial not written post or maybe I did write it. some things are the dream most things are not dont like your garden but you've got nice trees.