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Right... there is no such thing as a cosmic universal consciousness, that would be reifying consciousness into a Brahman, a metaphysical essence. There are just minds, but even minds being dependently originated are also empty of individual mind-ness... even so, all of them are only of one singular taste, the taste of luminous-empty insubstantial Mind. Padmasambhava: However, it is not a mere nothingness or something annihilated because it is lucid and present. It does not exist as a single entity because it is present and clear in terms of being many. (On the other hand) it is not created as a multiplicity of things because it is inseparable and of a single flavor. ........ Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation Don't do anything whatsoever with the mind -- Abide in an authentic, natural state. One's own mind, unwavering, is reality. The key is to meditate like this without wavering; Experience the Great [reality] beyond extremes. In a pellucid ocean, Bubbles arise and dissolve again. Just so, thoughts are no different from ultimate reality. So don't find fault; remain at ease. Whatever arises, whatever occurs, Don't grasp -- release it on the spot. Appearances, sounds, and objects are one's own mind; There's nothing except mind. Mind is beyond the extremes of birth and death. The nature of mind, awareness, Uses the objects of the five senses, but Does not wander from reality. In the state of cosmic equilibrium There is nothing to abandon or practice; No meditation or post-meditation period. ~ Miranda Shaw (tr.) "Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation," in Passionate Enlightenment. Extracted from: http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2004...pontaneous.html (great blog, btw) It is not the same yet not different. What you are talking about is the emptiness aspect. I am talking about the union of luminosity and emptiness, the union of non-dual awareness and dependent origination. You have to realise that everything is Mind, clearly luminous and vivid without subject-object duality, but at the same time, everything is Empty. (3 October, 2009) (11:25 PM) Thusness: u must always know that we do not deny luminosity but the empty nature must be realized what must teachers focus is the luminosity aspect (11:25 PM) Thusness: the brillant cognizance (11:26 PM) Thusness: some neglect the brillant bright and over skewed towards emptiness u must be able to integrate the 2 (11:26 PM) Thusness: it is vivid clear but empty therefore like a dream but not a dream (11:27 PM) Thusness: many mistaken that buddha talk about illusion like a dream (11:28 PM) Thusness: but all manifestation are just so, there is no exception (11:28 PM) Thusness: formation after formation, manifestation after manifestation...endlessly according to DO (11:29 PM) Me: what do u mean by buddha talk about illusoin (11:30 PM) Thusness: Buddha taught that life and samsara are like dreams but he was telling us that reality is dream like like painting on a pond (11:31 PM) Thusness: u must understand this clearly that whatever DO is SO (11:31 PM) Thusness: there is no exception (11:33 PM) Thusness: luminosity is like magical display it is the very display (11:33 PM) Thusness: that is why it is illusion like

That's only one of it's manifestations. When I first started practicing kundalini, I was celibate entirely, not even during dream time. Then when it gets centered in the upper chakras, one can enjoy sex again and not loose energy. Like most guys go to sleep, most guys loose their energy, but once the flow is going upwards naturally and not downwards like for most people, then the energy is not lost during ejaculation and one is also receiving from the women her energy and it's cycling. I think you've talked about this. But once it's centered in the upwards flow, kundalini is not merely sublimated sexual energy anymore, it's something much more refined and wise.

It's just one thing when you are doing something that might be real but is more like a dream than anything. Really real, even if it's a very faint effect, that's another thing entirely. If the same metrics against chance and rigorous scientific inquiry are used to prove both psi effects and that aspirin helps a headache, then....well I have to rethink many things in my life.

Hi Michael, Yeah, you still talk more than I do. Hehehe Yes, my body is real. I just scratched my butt and it felt nice. Yes, the tree is real, I am real, and you are real too. That's just the way life is. It is called the Manifest. It is about 2 percent of the total mass/energy of the universe. But we are real none-the-less. Trees existed before there was man to perceive them. How could trees be a figment of our imagination if they existed before there were any man? Yes, you have always said the the manifest world is an illusion. But you, Michael, can go no further back in history that when you were born. The universe has been manifest for 13.7 billion years. You are not that old. The only illusion is that you think things don't exist. Damn! Stop thinking so much and just enjoy life and all the physical pleasures of living! You mind creates nothing except your illusions and delusions. (Well, I need give you more credit than that but not here. Hehehe.) And once again, I say to you that the tree exists whether you want it to exist or not. You play no role in the existence of the tree in my yard. None whatsoever. I don't need Michaels mind in order to think that I am scratching my butt. I'm a big boy; I can do that all my myself. Now don't you turn into Findley and start trying to knock my understanding of Nietzsche. Nietzsche was a realist. He also loved to dance. He never said he did not exist. What he said is that people had become herd animals by clinging to there unrealistic beliefs and that people needed to learn how to live again. One of his books expresses his thoughts very well "Ecce Homo" - "Behold The Man". He said "Look at me! I am man. And I live according to my free will, not according to some religious dogma." There's truely no such thing as Michael but I am going to hold to my delusion and pretend that you really exist and am going to continue to talk with you. My head exists. Yesterday it had a fair amount of hair on it but then I cut all the hair off and now I am a skin-head. And the computer desk exists else the computer (yeah, I know, the computer doesn't exist either) would be on the floor (yeah, I know, the floor doesn't exist either). I am glad you are making progress with your course. I'm glad you are also enjoying the professor. Oh, wait!!! Neither of you two exist. No room for interpretation? That would be boring. My first college course was English Composition. We had to read something and explain what we got from the reading. I stood up in class and presented my understanding and the instructor said, "No, you are wrong." How the heck could my understanding be wrong? The fact that it didn't agree with the instructor's understanding should have had nothing to do with it. Don't sell me short, okay? Like the good teacher, I teach you everything you know but I do not teach you everything I know. (Yes, Nietzsche said a few nice things about Buddhism.) No he did not!!!!! Nietzsche love life and love the physical things of life. Yes, he said that we ought give up our delusions, including our religions and live in the beautiful manifest as fully as possible. And he told us to dance too. Remember, the recall of the butterfly dream lasted only a couple minutes after he woke up. Immediately upon waking he could not determine if he was dreaming of being a butterfly or if he was a butterfly dreaming he was Chuang Tzu. But then he realized it was only a dream of being a butterfly. He never, ever, ever suggested that he did not exist. In fact, he spoke of himself quite often and everything was in reference to his physical reality. So intuition has lead you to believe that you do not exist. It is the conditioned intuition that applies here. You have convinced yourself that you do not exist even though you do. But logically, if you and I are having a conversation then you must exist because I would never imagine anyone like you. Hehehe. Now it is time to go feed my fish that really exist. Peace & Love!

I will realize a tree is real because I'll walk into it? because there will be a sensory response to it? do you think the physical body is real too? because you "feel" it? i'm not saying that the 'world' is an illusion, well I am.. except i'm saying that the illusion is dependent on mind. i'm saying that it doesn't exist as you think it does, in fact mind creates the world entirely because everything you experience is dependent on mind. it is conditioned, your whole reality is conditioned. everything is dependent on mind as a necessary condition, without that condition its just potentiality. that's because you don't understand phenomenology, it's only illogical because you hold onto assumptions as axioms. the assumption that 'objects as representations' exist independent of your perception. http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/phenomenology/ wow, I thought you studied Nietzsche? you're going to hold a Descartian view of cogito ergo sum ??? Fred totally rips apart that fallacy since the 'I' is inferred, there are just thoughts... where's the I? if it is 'you' that thinks. then.. stop your thoughts, right now. stop them.. and see what happens when you try. the 'I' is just another thought, yet more subtle than conscious thoughts. the 'I' is just a conditioned thought just like every other thought and action. that's why there is no such thing as free will because every thought is conditioned and there is no "I' separate from those conditioned thoughts that is doing anything. what is 'head' and 'computer desk' ? they exist only as ideas dependent on mind. there's truly no such thing as 'head' or 'computer desk' I'm learning Nietzsche from a Logician/Metaphysician who himself wrote a book on Fred. My professor is a smart dude, http://www.ericsteinhart.com/ and he teaches the subject very practically. there's no room for interpretation in our class. If you don't see the similarities between Nietzsche, Buddhism, and Taoism in terms of the dream-like reality of this mind-created world, then you don't understand any of the 3 philosophies. Nietzsche went to great lengths to show that our whole reality is a delusion, the brain has evolved for the role of survival.. not truth, we are programmed for error.. this was his "theory of errors". The belief that things exist as you perceive them is as false as a belief in a God living up in the clouds judging everyone. Nietzsche wrote so much about this topic, how all the 'sciences' only provide theories not actual explanations because they rely on the senses. to see truth is to face the abyss, which is the absurd, the illogical. you have to go against intuition and what 'seems right'. for Taoism its the same thing, take Zhuangzi and his metaphor of the butterfly. or other Mystics from every tradition. they all refer to this reality as a dream that must be woken up to. in essence that means that everything you perceive to be true is false. all beliefs and intuitions are false. the only way to awaken from the dream is to let go of perceived notions of 'what is real' and embrace the absurdity that everything you hold to be true is actually false including the belief in an 'I'

a dream character is telling me that a dream tree exists, LOL... that's funny! you should know from all your Nietzsche readings that our whole 'world' is just a projection, a creation, a dream. there is no such thing as 'tree' nor does 'exist' even make sense when you take away identity from form. 'tree' exists only relatively, imagine you're asleep dreaming.. everything you perceive is seemingly real and concrete.. but if you wake up to the dream and realize that its all just your projection... do ideas such as 'tree' and 'exist' and 'you' even make sense anymore? isn't it quite silly then to say 'you exist, trust me' to a dream character?

I was having lunch with some colleagues and a women remarked that her friend had fallen in love with her husband because he was a good listener. I think that's really true for women; if the man can really sit and listen to her and actively listen and enjoy what she has to say, that's and big sign that there is real compatibility. Chris Rock say men need three things, food, sex and silence. Fuck me, make me a sandwich and shut the fuck up. I'm paraphrasing, but it seems there is some grain of truth here. One of the hardest things to do in relationship is really sit down and make time to listen to each other on a consistent bases. For me, and probably men and general, listening is one of the hardest activities to really do well in a relationship. They say women utter about 3 times the number of words that men do, on average, in a given day. In response to Kate's post, I think there is an art to successful relationships and I also think that Taoists have an advantage because part of the Tao is being a good listener and understanding that we are connecting to people. If you can develop this skill, I think you will have a lot more balance in your relationships. Women need to respect the silence in men and a man needs to honor a woman's need for authentic communication. Mature Romantic love, I feel, can be a spiritual practice in itself and, if taken seriously and respected as such, can be an incredible tool for personal growth and self realization. It doesn't always to have the the element of 'falling' in love either. It can just be a mature love relationship that you have going. In a way I Think we could even separate romantic or courtly love and the mature love that grows over time in a real relationship. In fact I would even say there is a clear distinction. If you have ever read Robert Johnson's work (anybody?), he talks in great depth about our western culture's obsession with what was originally called courtly love. It is from courtly love, explains Johnson, that our fascination with romantic love and our idealistic views on relationship have evolved. There are three books in particular by Johnson that I want to recommend, We, He and She. He was a student of Carl Jung and is considered on of the most highly respected Jungian Analysts in the field today. He's like 90 something now and still has a regular practice part of the year in San Diego, CA. Anyway, courtly love came about in the middle ages and was associated with an offshoot of Christianity that worshiped the feminine ideal. Courtly love was typically prescribed between a married man, usually a knight, and a lady of the court. It was not a sexual relationship, but one of great romantic passion non the less. The knight, would seek to win favor with the object of his affection, the lady in this case, by winning battles and contests of strength and valor and returning with gifts to offer the lady. These were often the things that still associate with romance today; flowers, silks, poetry and other sentimental offerings. But again, in courtly love, the man and woman were often already married and sex, although often perhaps played upon and symbolically present, never really enters into it. The idea is that the passion between the man in the woman is the driving force, compelling the man to ever greater heights of courage and conquest, mirroring his relationship with God and the divine, acted out through the feminine. Both Johnson and Jung believed, rightly so, that this ideal of courtly love has strongly carried over and is still the basis for relationships in the collective unconscious of the west. Johnson goes on to say that the our misinterpretation, as a culture, of the purpose and underlying spiritual significance of courtly love has been the cause and condition for a lot of suffering and a wrongly directed projection of the courtly ideal, something that was originally a form of spiritual practice, onto marriages and relationships in our western society. The work that Johnson has done is very significant and extensive and I won't attempt to present his work here except to illustrate a few points about the way relationships work in the west and how we suffer more often than not if we hold to these unconscious patterns. I will also make a brief observation about how western and eastern relationships operate. First of all, according to Jung, when men and women 'fall in love' in our culture; this is the unconscious (the true self, not the ego) projects the desire to commune with God onto another human being. For Jung, the soul of a man is the Anima, expressed in the feminine ideal; man's inner female. For the women, it's Animus, the inner man. These hidden aspects of our unconscious self are God in the form of the opposite sex and rooted in our mind stream as archetypal bridges to the divine within. They are very powerful and vary real forces, even though they are manifestations of the mind and the collective unconscious. If we understand their proper place, that they are part of God or part of the divine aspect of our own self nature, we can use them as tools for a truly spiritual life. They become doorways to the sacred aspect of our self and pathways to self realization. If your not familiar with Jungian work, this may sound unfamiliar and contrived, it's not; but you would have to do some research to fully grasp it. The mistake that we in the west make is thinking that this inner projection belongs to our girlfriends and wives in the physical world. We are fooled into believing that the animus and anima are the woman or man in our romantic life. We see the divine, or project the divine ideal, onto ordinary people and that's where things get mixed up. When men fall in love, typically, according to Johnson, if they are not aware of their unconscious, they project it on to the women who then becomes the object of their romantic (from the practice of courtly love) love. "Oh, she is so amazing, there is no one else like her, she is the one." Of course no woman or man can live up to this ideal and as soon as the illusion is broken, usually after they have dated a while or married or whatever, they realize that that special feeling of being with some divine personage has vanished. In it's place is a normal person with problems and faults and pimples just like the rest of us. Someone mentioned earlier that true love is the 'one that got away' and that's exactly the function of romantic love in our culture. You can never hold it in your hands, it will always slip away, like a dream upon waking. Usually, we start looking for someone else. Someone prettier, younger, Mr. Right or Mrs. Right. We don't understand that this holy image that we have fallen in love with is our own soul trying to penetrate our awareness. Most people who have been through divorce a few times or been married for a long time or had long term committed relationships that they were able to sustain and change with, begin to understand this on some level. But some people don't get it and keep going from one relationship to the next trying to catch what they cannot catch. Spiritual practice can also fall into this cycle. The rightful place of the divine is of course in your own heart and must be nurtured and tended to very carefully and lovingly and with the knowledge and the respect to allow it to take its proper place and play its correct role. Until we go within, we cannot know God or find real peace; Jung called this process individuation, the process of separation and then reconnecting the ego to the unconscious with awareness. A very Taoist idea. So what is real love than? Well, according to Johnson, we must, in western culture, enter love with the illusion. For most of us it's the only way to access the divine and eventually understand our relationship to the divine. So we have to operate within the limits of the culture we are born into to eventually break free of them. If we look at the divorce rate in America, it's not too hard to see that this is a very apt and accurate recommendation. Real love is of course based on healthy boundaries, mutual respect and understanding, and of course friendship and attraction. Johnson often likes to contrast our western ideas about love with the eastern way of doing things where marriages are generally more stable and grounded and sex and passion are more aspects or parts of the relationship as a greater whole and not the whole itself. Of course this is a generalization, there are exceptions in every culture and eastern culture is becoming more westernized these days too. So, the desire to fall in love can be and generally is based on false identification. It's a projection and completely mind dependent. There can be a more mature courtship that grows over time and becomes a strong bond that starts with friendship. That's what I'm looking for. This more stable and practical version of the modern love affair is based in reality and leads to a lasting bond and shared admiration where the divine in both partners is honored and acknowledged, but not wrongly projected onto the actual person. Two people who can share this kind of relationship are the luckiest people in the world. Two souls, awake together, supporting the other in a graceful and dignified way and not focused on how they can possess or benefit, but rather on what they can give and learn in return. So my question, again, is what we can do to increase the chances of meeting that special someone to love; From attracting a mate to supporting and sustaining a mature, grounded relationship? I have my own ideas for sure, what are yours?

Sentience = Awareness. Without you there is no earth. There is no past, present, or future. Your Awareness is unborn, unceasing, and will never die. Only its contents and experiences will change and cycle due to habitual actions and views i.e. Karma. All phenomena is creates from a beginningless dream wherein in you see flowers in the sky arising out of nothing and seeing it as a distinct form of itself, one adheres to "this," and "that" creating objects to this relationship of causes and conditions. There is no object of dependence. Only the relationship exists.

I'm growing impatient with this forum; feels like I'm talking to myself, so I'm going to shut up and let it go for a while. If anyone here has anything novel to add, please let me know what I'm missing. I do appreciate all the input so far and I don't want to necessarily make this thread all about me and my goal to fall in love. I will share one more thought. I've been doing the Taoist thing for about 15 years now. I've been to China twice, Europe a number of times as well as a few other spots in Asia seeking answers and trying to find some truth and answers to these questions of why we are here and who we are and what love is, what it really is. And studied very diligently in much of my time. What I found out is that there is nothing better than, stronger than love. All of these tools, meditation Chi Gong, Taoist practice are good for only one thing and that's love. All of my searching has been to find love. It's not about getting love. It's about realizing you are love. At some point, I was able to let a lot of these 'tools' go. My regular meditation practice and all the rest quite naturally drifted away and I found myself, for the first time since childhood. What I think we all are looking for with all of these devices and practices is love and certainly romantic love, if it's mature and not about getting something or possessing something or someone, can be a wonderful, powerful expression of that. Okay, I'll come back tomorrow and look forward to hearing more about Taoist love. Sweet Dreams lovers. When I'm alone in my room sometimes I stare at the wall and in the back of my mind I hear my conscience call Telling me I need a girl who's as sweet as a dove for the first time in my life, I see I need love There I was giggling about the games that I had played with many hearts, and I'm not saying no names Then the thought occured, tear drops made my eyes burn as I said to myself look what you've done to her I can feel it inside, I can't explain how it feels all I know is that I'll never dish another raw deal Playing make believe pretending that I'm true holding in my laugh as I say that I love you Saying amor kissing you on the ear whispering I love you and I'll always be here Although I often reminsce I can't believe that I found a desire for true love floating around Inside my soul because my soul is cold one half of me deserves to be this way till I'm old But the other half needs affection and joy and the warmth that is created by a girl and a boy I need love I need love Romance sheer delight how sweet I gotta find me a girl to make my life complete You can scratch my back, we'll get cozy and huddle I'll lay down my jacket so you can walk over a puddle I'll give you a rose, pull out your chair before we eat kiss you on the cheek and say ooh girl you're so sweet It's deja vu whenever I'm with you I could go on forever telling you what I do But where you at you're neither here or there I swear I can't find you anywhere Damn sure you ain't in my closet, or under my rug this love search is really making me bug And if you know who you are why don't you make yourself seen take the chance with my love and you'll find out what I mean Fantasy's can run but they can't hide and when I find you I'm gon' pour all my love inside I need love I need love I wanna kiss you hold you never scold you just love you suck on you neck, caress you and rub you Grind moan and never be alone if you're not standing next to me you're on the phone Can't you hear it in my voice, I need love bad I've got money but love's something I've never had I need your ruby red lips sweet face and all I love you more than a man who's 10 feet tall I'd watch the sunrise in your eyes we're so in love when we hug we become paralyzed Our bodies explode in ecstasy unreal you're as soft as a pillow and I'm as hard as steel It's like a dream land, I can't lie I never been there maybe this is an experience that me and you can share Clean and unsoiled yet sweaty and wet I swear to you this is something that I'll never forget I need love I need love See what I mean I've changed I'm no longer a play boy on the run I need something that's stronger Friendship, trust honor respect admiration this whole experience has been such a revelation It's taught me love and how to be a real man to always be considerate and do all I can Protect you you're my lady and you mean so much my body tingles all over from the slightest touch Of your hand and understand I'll be frozen in time till we meet face to face and you tell me you're mine If I find you girl I swear I'll be a good man I'm not gonna leave it in destiny's hands I can't sit and wait for my princess to arrive I gotta struggle and fight to keep my dream alive I'll search the whole world for that special girl when I finally find you watch our love unfurl I need love I need love Girl, listen to me When I be sittin in my room all alone, staring at the wall fantasies, they go through my mind And I've come to realize that I need true love and if you wanna give it to me girl make yourself seen I'll be waiting I love you

Initiation into Hermetics is like a gym workout. If you do it, you'll get stronger, but you won't know why you're getting stronger. In other words, it lacks the wisdom component and just tells you all the hands-on exercises but not the why behind them. Zen Buddhism is just standard Mahayana Buddhism, and as such, it has a wisdom component. This is what an understanding of the empty nature of phenomena is for. All phenomena are empty of inherent existence -- when you understand what this means and what it implies, you have at least some of the wisdom. One of the things this means is that once you understand emptiness your mind cannot be derailed by any phenomena. In other words, you will no longer be automatically buying into appearances as would be a normal thing to do without such contemplation and wisdom development. Normally when people see a car, they think, "it's a car" and that's it. This means their mind is running away with the appearances, taking them in only at their superficial value. So when it comes to Initiation into Hermetics, I think it has a lot of useful exercises, but if you don't have a wisdom aspect to supplement it with, what might happen is you might become more delusional than the normal deluded state. Normal state of human beings is deluded because when they see appearances they only understand that "something is out there." For example, if the rain is falling on their head, they run for cover. They don't understand that rain is just (there is a disclaimer here tho) an appearance in the mind. They think it's actually, honest to God raining. So appearances tend to take on unwarranted actuality and the mind becomes unimaginative and rigid in dealing with such appearances (hence, no magic, for example). So it's enough that we are deluded about day to day appearances. Now imagine you succeed with IIH and summon an entity. Without wisdom, you will think it's an actual honest to God entity there, and your immersion into the delusive quality of the dream will intensify, as you now have to contend with another added aspect in your dream as if it were real. So for example, this entity might not do what you want and might scare you. Without wisdom, you will definitely be scared, because you will think this entity has actuality behind it. Etc... and all hell might break loose from there on. As for BK Frantzis, I can't comment as well as I can on the other two things, because I haven't read much of BK Frantzis. But from what you are describing here, it seems to have the same flaw as IIH -- namely it appears to lack the wisdom aspect. So what will happen is that at some point some amazing experience will develop and you will think "Aha, this is the actual Universal Consciousness". In some sense, this kind of delusion is not as bad as taking various additional entities for real, but in the long term, it's still as bad because the trap hasn't been disarmed. It's like living on a stick of dynamite. All is fine as long as the fuse doesn't go off. Having wisdom is like having a mental immune system. It's a very good thing. So all these methods, in my opinion, will produce amazing results. In a way, as far as getting results, I think IIH and BK Frantzis are actually better than Buddhism. Buddhism has over-emphasis on the wisdom, but not enough work to teach you how reclaim your status as a mage. But if one has to err though, I think it's better to err on the side of too much wisdom and not enough creativity. If you err on the side of too much creativity and not enough wisdom, that can be a lot worse (at least in the short to medium term). As for the disclaimer above, saying "just an appearance" has a deceptive quality. In one sense it's true that all appearances are "just appearances" but on the other hand, this tends to allow people to underestimate the power behind some appearances. Some appearances have apparent inertia, and are not easy to change under certain conditions. So for example, if you are stuck in a fire, you can make it so that you don't burn and don't suffocate... and just because that ability is possible we can say "it's just an appearance." But because doing that is non-trivial under many conditions, we need to have a healthy doze of respect for appearances and not call them "just an appearance" without at least some caution. This respect for appearances should not translate into buying into those appearances though. So there is plenty of nuance here.

heart never drains thats just a feeling when greedy becomes disappointed through reaching for someone who is not truly there its called disappointment like stage diving without supporters Iv'e had good times stopping outwards orgasm. alone and with partner. a partner can very well share an inwards orgasm with you. a particularly paranoid partner would perhaps dream you stealing from him, while draeing inwards, but then again, who would have such a partner.

I don't really believe in enlightenment or striving for this "illusive dream," as I wish to call it. Whenever I have met a so-called master that was claimed to be enlightened, I learned that I didn't wnat to be like them. Most that I met were greedy, into having affairs with their disciples, and into fame. And I used to think that meditation would cause a person to become more moral and therefore not wish to harm others. It doesn't. Instead, I think "just being" is what is important. All this striving leads to nothing as far as I can tell. And when I read what enlightenment is supposed to be, by Hindus and Buddhists alike, it sounded so boring. Friedrich Nietzsche said it best when he said that he would rather choose eternally conscious suffering than nonexistence. And enlightenment seems like eternal nonexistence or just being blissed out.

DHARMA TALK ON ONE MIND by Bassui Tokusho Zenji If you would free yourself of the sufferings of the Six Realms, you must learn the direct way to become a Buddha. This way is no other than the realization of your own Mind. Now what is this Mind? It is the true nature of all sentient beings, that which existed before our parents were born and hence before our own birth, and which presently exists, unchangeable and eternal. So it is called one's Face before one's parents were born. This Mind is intrinsically pure. When we are born it is not newly created, and when we die it does not perish. It has no distinction of male or female, not has it any coloration of good or bad. It cannot be compared with anything, so it is called Buddha-nature. Yet countless thoughts issue from this Self-nature as waves arise in the ocean or as images are reflected in a mirror. If you want to realize your own Mind, you must first of all look into the source from which thoughts flow. Sleeping and working, standing and sitting, profoundly ask yourself, "What is my own Mind?" with an intense yearning to resolve this question. This is called "training" or "practice" or "desire for truth" or "thirst for realization." What is termed Zazen is no more than looking into one's own mind. It is better to search your own mind devotedly than to read and recite innumerable sutras and dharani every day for countless years. Such endeavors, which are but formalities, produce some merit, but this merit expires and again you must experience the suffering of the Three Evil Paths. Because searching one's own mind leads ultimately to enlightenment, this practice is a prerequisite to becoming a Buddha. No matter whether you have committed either the ten evil deeds or the five deadly sins, still if you turn back your mind and enlighten yourself, you are a Buddha instantly. But do not commit sins and expect to be saved by enlightenment [from the effects of your own actions. Neither enlightenment] nor a Buddha nor a Patriarch can save a person who, deluding himself, goes down evil ways. Imagine a child sleeping next to its parents and dreaming it is being beaten or is painfully sick. The parents cannot help the child no matter how much it suffers, for no one can enter the dreaming mind of another. If the child could awaken itself, it could be freed of this suffering automatically. In the same way, one who realizes that his own Mind is Buddha frees himself instantly from the sufferings arising from [ignorance of the law of] ceaseless change of birth-and-death. If a Buddha could prevent it, do you think he would allow even one sentient being to fall into hell? Without Self-Realization one cannot understand such things as these. What kind of master is it that this very moment sees colors with the eyes and hears voices with the ears, that now raises the hands and moves the feet? We know these are functions of our own mind, but no one knows precisely how they are performed. It may be asserted that behind these actions there is no entity, yet it is obvious they are being performed spontaneously. Conversely, it may be maintained that these are the acts of some entity; still the entity is invisible. If one regards this question as unfathomable, all attempts to reason [out an answer] will cease and one will be at a loss to know what to do. In this propitious state deepen and deepen the yearning, tirelessly, to the extreme. When the profound questioning penetrates to the very bottom, and that bottom is broken open, not the slightest doubt will remain that your own Mind is itself Buddha, the Void-universe. There will then be no anxiety about life or death, no truth to search for. In a dream you may stray and lose your way home. You ask someone to show you how to return or you pray to God or Buddhas to help you, but still you can't get home. Once you rouse yourself from your dream-state, however, you find that you are in your own bed and realize that the only way you could have gotten home was to awaken yourself. This (kind of spiritual awakening] is called "return to the origin" or "rebirth in paradise." It is the kind of inner realization that can be achieved with some training. Virtually all who like Zazen and make an effort in practice, be they laymen or monks, can experience to this degree. But even such [partial] awakening cannot be attained except through the practice of Zazen. You would be making a serious error, however, were you to assume that this was true enlightenment in which there is no doubt about the nature of reality. You would be like a man who having found copper gives up the desire for gold. Upon such realization question yourself even more intensely in this wise: "My body is like a phantom, like bubbles on a stream. My mind, looking into itself, is as formless as empty-space, yet somewhere within sounds are perceived. Who is hearing?" Should you question yourself in this wise with profound absorption, never slackening the intensity of your effort, your rational mind eventually will exhaust itself and only questioning at the deepest level will remain. Finally you will lose awareness of your own body. Your long-held conceptions and notions will perish, after absolute questioning, in the way that every drop of water vanishes from a tub broken open at the bottom, and perfect enlightenment will follow like flowers suddenly blooming on withered trees. With such realization you achieve true emancipation. But even now repeatedly cast off what has been realized, turning back to the subject that realizes, that is, to the root bottom, and resolutely go on. Your Self-nature will then grow brighter and more transparent as your delusive feelings perish, like a gem gaining luster under repeated polishing, until at last it positively illumines the entire universe. Don't doubt this! Should your yearning be too weak to lead you to this state in your present lifetime, you will undoubtedly gain Self-realization easily in the next, provided you are still engaged in this questioning at death, just as yesterday's work half done was finished easily today. While you are doing Zazen neither despise nor cherish the thoughts that arise; only search your own mind, the very source of these thoughts. You must understand that anything appearing in your consciousness or seen by your eyes is an illusion, of no enduring reality. Hence you should neither fear nor be fascinated by such phenomena. If you keep your mind as empty as space, unstained by extraneous matters, no evil spirits can disturb you even on your deathbed. While engaged in Zazen, however, keep none of this counsel in mind. You must only become the question "What is this Mind?" or "What is it that hears these sounds?" When you realize this Mind you will know that it is the very source of all Buddhas and sentient beings. The Bodhisattva Kannon is so called because he attained enlightenment by perceiving -i.e., grasping the source of the sounds of the world about him. At work, at rest, never stop trying to realize who it is that hears. Even though your questioning becomes almost unconscious, you won't find the one who hears, and all your efforts will come to naught. Yet sounds can be heard, so question yourself to an even profounder level. At last every vestige of self-awareness will disappear and you will feel like a cloudless sky. Within yourself you will find no "I," nor will you discover anyone who hears. This Mind is like the void, yet it hasn't a single spot that can be called empty. This state is often mistaken for Self-realization. But continue to ask yourself even more intensely, "Now who is it that hears?" If you bore and bore into this question, oblivious to anything else; even this feeling of voidness will vanish and you will be unaware of anything-total darkness will prevail. [Don't stop here, but] keep asking with all your strength, "What is it that hears?" Only when you have completely exhausted the questioning will the question burst; now you will feel like a man come back from the dead. This is true realization. You will see the Buddhas of all the universes face to face and the Patriarchs past and present. Test yourself with this koan: "A monk asked Joshu: 'What is the meaning of Bodhidharma's coming to China?' Joshu replied: 'The oak tree in the garden.' " Should this koan leave you with the slightest doubt, you need to resume questioning, "What is it that hears?" If you don't come to realization in this present life, when will you? Once you have died you won't be able to avoid a long period of suffering in the Three Evil Paths. What is obstructing realization? Nothing but your own half-hearted desire for truth. Think of this and exert yourself to the utmost. - Any Koan masters here know the meaning of this? "A monk asked Joshu: 'What is the meaning of Bodhidharma's coming to China?' Joshu replied: 'The oak tree in the garden.' "

Neat! We need more non-dual depiction cartoons. I don't know if I should share a dream here that I have more than once, at least this one part, but I'm feeling inspired to do so, so... I'll do it. It's different dreams that have a repeating element to it, as different things happen after this first part which repeats. The repeating element is; I wake up in sleep paralysis which happens often enough so it doesn't scare me anymore, I just follow the feeling and relax into it, and I slowly slip out of my body... I then find myself in a state of a wondrous bliss. I'm made of light and everything is just this light, a bright white light. I'm floating in this light, made of the light, experienced as bliss. I'm both aware of being in the light and that I am the light with the regular me swimming in formless me. I am both seeing from the perspective of being the person swimming around in the light, more like floating around in the light and I'm aware from the perspective of being the light that I'm floating in. So, I'm having perception from both sides. Having vision through the eyes of the "light being" swimming and the light itself being one big eye that is looking at me swimming in me. Like seeing through two heads at the same time except one level of perception does not have a center of vision to see from, there are no eyes, it's seeing from all directions at once and the other one, the little me swimming in the big me is seeing through the two eyes. So it's simultaneously limited vision and 360 spherical vision focusing in on a person floating around within itself. Like the ocean was suddenly aware of a fish inside of it, except I'm both the fish and the ocean. According to Buddhist interpretation of this experience, my consciousness was basically just experiencing the water element which appears as white light and this water element is all around. I was aware that my consciousness was mingling with the all pervasive pure level of water element, the freedom was blissful, and there was no sense of concrete identity as well, there was just awareness and bliss. The big formless awareness which was my consciousness being aware beyond it's habitual identification with the body, was seeing the little me blissfully floating within it, but the color was all the same, yet I could differentiate both houses of consciousness, one was the water element and the other was my subtle mind body. Though it was white on white, I was aware both of the unity because both experiences of simultaneous awareness' was from my one consciousness, my mind stream. I was aware of the contrast without there having to be color, like I could see my face and the details of it without there having to be shades and color differences. Though it's hard to explain and probably even harder to read, this type of experience I feel shows that awareness is not trapped within or dependent upon the physical body to see. That apparent limitations are merely a game, or a play on a stage that we do for fun, but we have forgotten how fun it is. Of course individual intentions for becoming physical and limited differ from mind stream to mind stream and the causes for birth into this realm differ from being to being. Yet, at the beginning of any particular cosmic cycle, the intention was probably merely for the sake of experience propelled by the condition of a feeling of need left over from the last universe since we didn't become Buddhas then. I don't personally see awareness as some mysterious will that choses to condition itself out of some desire or will to do so. I don't see it as the source of all things either, but I see that our individual consciousness can become aware of subtler paradigms than the 5 senses, thus transcending body and brain consciousness. Because when we come out of this subtle state we see our physical universe kind of re-manifest perceptually, we assume that it's awareness that's doing this, but it's really just conditions of the physical habit coming back into awareness from a subtler paradigm of consciousness. Our consciousness occupies dimensions beyond the body even while we are only being aware of the body level and sense consciousness most of the time. I'm having a hard time explaining this right now as I find that as I try to explain there is a flood of information and dimensions and details that need to be explained, so I feel like a huge book is trying to be expressed here... Which I'm not going to write, right now. So... thank you for posting this and asking us to express our beliefs around this. It's always a nice challenge to try to put experience beyond the linearity of sequential time and of limitations of expressed on paper words through the English language. Thank you. Take care!

It's erroneous views that are the cause of this not being experienced as an Eden. I used to have the messy view that all paths lead to the same destination which really isn't that insightful and doesn't see the meaning of things as they are. I made an excuse that the Truth was a transcendent umbrella idealism that is beyond thoughts, logic and reason. I used to think... why is it that Buddhists think they have the only path that leads to true liberation from unconscious recycling? As a Hindu I was able to see that Jesus was a Buddha, Krishna was a Buddha, Lau Tzu was a Buddha and Buddha was the only Buddhist Buddha because all these other guys who say that Buddhism is the only path that leads beyond proliferation are dogmatic and don't understand the Buddhas teaching. All these Buddhists missed the boat and only non-Buddhists understand the Buddhas teachings. I used to think like this. Because I thought all religions and all the cosmos had one source, that there was a beginning to the universe a source that was also it's end and that all things were of one substance and that everything was under the power of a mysterious will. Everything is the dream of one dreamer, dreaming his/himself into multiplicity only to become one again at the end of the cosmic eon. Then I realized dependent origination and saw past this dogma. I realized that it wasn't Buddhists who were being dogmatic, it was me... I was being dogmatic and I was mis-interpreting my experiences the only way an identity knows how. To identify my transcendent experiences with a transcendent identity. It's a habit that has kept me recycling for endless time, over and over again. It's the hardest habit to break. People want to take some parts of the Buddhas teachings but those parts that challenge their view, they dismiss as being some sort of addition that came later. But, the Buddha did say in the Pali Canon that his teaching was special and that the universe works like dependent origination illumines and does not work in the way that other traditions posit. It's an entirely different teaching from other traditions. It is unique and it's either wrong or right. But, it's not the same as other tradition which all seem to fall under the assumption that everything comes from one source and that one day we will all return to this one source. This is true, but that source is ignorance, and ignorance can be bliss, and have a lot of knowledge. That doesn't mean it's liberation from Samsara as the Buddha defines it though. Buddha was the only started of a major world religion that actually meant his teachings to be a formal religion with monks and lay disciples, an entire system of methods and contemplations for the sake of liberation from Samsara. It wasn't a later edition, he actually created Buddhism. Buddha meant for his teachings to be an organised path to liberation. His system of consideration is rebellious. It's rebellious against the habit of oneness, the substratum that we are all products of is ignorance. The fundamental ignorance of a final identity.

Other then a sorta've recurring dream I really can't remember.

Fascinating! When I was a child I had a very vivid dream of angels taking me on a tour of other dimensions-hell being one of them.I recall the men in white garments telling other entities that the most High has saved this one or has a purpose for him.Considering I was evil for awhile in my teenage years then I submitted to righteous principles..it makes me wonder about predestination.How we are free to choose yet those choices are still circumscribed by what is-a kind of fatalism-destiny.Anyway. I apologize since I wrote on your response without asking what you meant by refining energy and correct focus? Have you tried stem enhance? By focus do you mean directing the visualizations that go on in our minds, in an effort to steer the river of our ever changing [reconstructing] bodies?

I hope this doesn't side track a conversation, but about 10 years ago I had an astral projection where I unintentionally went out of my body 15 years back in time and went back to a place my body was sleeping (7,000 miles away from where I lived at the time). The place was infested with some kind of entities that quickly disappeared. I tied to get back to my body sleeping there, but realized it was my body but 15 years younger (and 2 feet shorter). And also about the same time I remembered that when I was little and about the same age I had a nightmare I had to fight the entities invading my house. It was so real and scary and made such a big impression on me that I never forgot that dream. So I just flew 7,000 miles back to my older body. I should have just tried to move my finger... would be faster. Still, this experience made me think there is a lot of crazy shit that can happen... if only we can have an open mind.

Hello Leon Basin. Thanks for the question. I enjoyed it immensely. I found also quite interesting the answers, as if there was an answer to such question. I think that if you keep on asking yourself this question, and keep on reading, and following people you feel have something to teach you, eventually you will find an answer that satisfy you. So what I wanted to propose you is just a simple exercise. An exercise that will not make you live life as a taoist, but might make you live life a bit less as a non Taoist. BtW, why do you want to live life as a Taoist? Don't you have enough troubles? This exercise, this game, has some rules. Rules are important. So it is important that while you do the exercise you follow them. First you need to ask yourself a question; here are some examples: Should I make love with the girlfriend of my best friend? or Should I live as a Taoist? Then you remain with the question, and find the answer. (yes/no/...whatever) But then in life (as in journalism) the important is never the first question, but the second one... And the second one is: why? And I told you that there are rules. and the rule is that as you answer the why question you are not allowed to refer to any authority figure. You cannot say because this book/this website/this text/this dream/this teacher/this guru... says ... . Whatever a book, a website.... a guru says, you leave it alone. The answer must not contain it. This is how traditionally, in our school ethic is being trained. Once you have the answer you change the question: what if he is not my best friend? what is I am angry with him? what if she asks me to? and what exactly does make love mean? Does that imply penetration? What if she wants it, she asks me, and we don't penetrate, but we look into the eyes, and let the energetic bodes copulate above? And so on. All this will not make you a Taoist, because honestly I don't think it is possible to become a Taoist, but might help you to drain some of the mud that covers you heart (nothing personal, we all have it), and let that internal wisdom that you have shine through. And when you have a connection to that... you will probably not ask yourself even how to become a Taoist. With great respect, Pietro

Right, but only if you are aware of it. One can become aware of things that one was not aware of. Like dreams still happen even if when we awake our consciousness is unaware of the fact of the activity. One can train consciousness to be aware as the impressions are still accessible. Because the habit of identifying is unconscious, the experience is still accessible. The experience was clung to on an unconscious level so is stored in the mind stream. As when you were dreaming, you were clinging to this as I and mine, even though when you awoke, because the identity with physicality is so strong, the paradigm shift broke the awareness. So, one doesn't remember the dream experience because of a lack of awareness, not a lack of consciousness. It's that dream consciousness and waking consciousness identities are too separated by a sense of duality. Ok... I'm really tired, I only got a few hours sleep today due to typing and work. I'm going to step off. Whew. Eh ok... maybe semantics. p.s. Nice debating with you Lucky.

Depending on what you mean by self inquiry, if you are talking about Advaitic sense a la Ramana Maharshi, then self inquiry easily leads to the I AM realisation than to the No-Self realisation. The No-Self realisation is gained through contemplating vipassanically on these verses.... # There is thinking, no thinker There is hearing, no hearer There is seeing, no seer # In thinking, just thoughts In hearing, just sounds In seeing, just forms, shapes and colors. Or simply the Bahiya Sutta. This is not to say that self inquiry in the vedantic sense is not precious, because it can give a powerful realisation of one's luminous nature of mind (as pure aliveness, consciousness), a powerful conviction that you are not a machine, or a corpse or a lifeless body -- the nature of mind is luminous, clear, alive as pure presence, imbued with clear knowingness. My friend Thusness has instructed a number of friends on self inquiry in the Vedantic sense, knowing that it will not lead all the way but can be an important tool. However its empty (of self and inherent existence) nature will be evasive until further insights but it is nevertheless it can still serve as an important foundation or condition for further insights (though those who follow the traditional Mahasi Sayadaw Theravadin Vipassana path like Daniel Ingram may not emphasize this stage). It is this experience of the pure I AMness that becomes mistaken as an Atman or Eternal Witness. Great. I have to add on something... Rangtong seems to skew towards emptiness to the point of nihilism. Shentong seems to skew towards luminosity to the point of eternalism. When one realises the union of luminosity and emptiness, one goes beyond extremes. Luminosity is the very magical and dream-like display of appearances... vivid and clear but empty. Focus on the luminosity but also realise it's empty, dependently originated, and impermanent nature.

Right, there is no ultimate metaphysical essence outside of Awareness. Awareness and its luminosity has always been the nature of phenomena. The distinctions one makes, which is another state of Awareness itself, and an identification with the subject vs. an object is what is illusory. It is the eternal "I-ness." For anything to exist it must be within Awareness, within the Mind. It must be self-conscious, else, how can you know it exists? This is the only quality that cannot be changed and it is permanent. It is neither the observer or the observed because both point to a subject object duality. There never was any such dualities except within the imagination. Your mind has drawn lines in empty space. In reality there is no set distinction between the two. The luminosity is not dependently originated. It is what phenomena is. Dependent origination applies to the content of the luminosity wherein the distinctions of this and that are made. Once this is grasped, there is suddenly that. And then there is suddenly all these definitions, causes, conditions within the Mind. Hence suffering. Dependent origination and self inquiry are both methods of getting rid of the habitual seeds the Mind has accustomed itself to. It is destroying all false causes and discrimination. There is nothing but your own Awareness, and it has the total freedom and infinite potentials to create, interact, and dream. It has created this world, it can create new worlds, live in it, die in it, suffer in it. To realize this is to be freed from identifying with the falsely arisen causes within. And the servant is no longer the master. You are totally alone, everything, and free. You are in everything. And everything is in you. Each mind stream is its own creation. This is not to say that there is no "you" or other. The essence of "other" is projected into your mind. In the same way, your reality is simultaneously happening, reflected, in those you interact with. Actually it is reflected in infinite number of consciousness creations. Note: Certain Taoist methods mention how the practitioner, when he dreams of ascending into the heavens, actually does so both in his mind and in the heavens.

I don't know. I must see how my conclusions fit into my experience of reality. I have to contemplate further, but Dependent Origination on the surface made me realize that all distinctions, causes, and effects were illusionary. The question of free will and self identity has always been very elusive. That is why I came back to this thread when I realized that causes, conditions, time, space are all illusionary distinctions. No where could I find a boundary to a perceived event. Everything seems like a dream made up by my mind. And it is totally and completely free in its ability to create and evolve as an artist. I remember once reading about the Buddha being asked why there was suffering in his realm, i.e. Earth. And he replied that the suffering of his land was necessary to motivate others to become liberated. I feel as if I am dreaming that land the Buddha has constructed, only to learn that I am also a creator of realities.

Yes, that is precisely right. My will is bound by nothing but my own illusions I have created. But those illusions have been created solely by me and hence I have the total ability to become free from it. No one exists "from" anything. But they can only create their experience according to the medium they are able or choose to project. And the potentials of the content of creation is infinite, imagine making distinctions in empty space. You can draw a line through space infinitely, entertaining various causes and effects, entertaining endless variety of creation. I that same way, the Buddha ha left him imprint on creation as "Buddha" ness. He is there to counter the illusion of the dream, so that the mind can become awakened to non other than itself! Hence you are the sole creator of your reality. To me, you don't exist but as an imprint of a characteristic. VH doesn't exist in my Awareness but only as a VH"ness". We are simply both projecting a similar taste of objective existence, known as the "human realm." Yes. And your answer to this is that it comes from predetermined causes and conditions. Everyone just flowing to the current. My answer is that it is I. And this I is everything of my Awareness. It is my Mind.

Luminosity arises from the fact of the empty quality of things and consciousness. It is not self supported or self originated. You should try to study abhidharma more. You are obviously missing out on a subtle experiential insight because your conclusion is opposed to the bodhi of the Buddhas. I also used to cling to this level of examining that you are clinging to. But, your not seeing the meaning of my words, so the words don't make sense. Nagarjuna's Mahamudra Vision Homage to Manjusrikumarabhuta! 1. I bow down to the all-powerful Buddha Whose mind is free of attachment, Who in his compassion and wisdom Has taught the inexpressible. 2. In truth there is no birth - Then surely no cessation or liberation; The Buddha is like the sky And all beings have that nature. 3. Neither Samsara nor Nirvana exist, But all is a complex continuum With an intrinsic face of void, The object of ultimate awareness. 4. The nature of all things Appears like a reflection, Pure and naturally quiescent, With a non-dual identity of suchness. 5. The common mind imagines a self Where there is nothing at all, And it conceives of emotional states - Happiness, suffering, and equanimity. 6. The six states of being in Samsara, The happiness of heaven, The suffering of hell, Are all false creations, figments of mind. 7. Likewise the ideas of bad action causing suffering, Old age, disease and death, And the idea that virtue leads to happiness, Are mere ideas, unreal notions. 8. Like an artist frightened By the devil he paints, The sufferer in Samsara Is terrified by his own imagination. 9. Like a man caught in quicksands Thrashing and struggling about, So beings drown In the mess of their own thoughts. 10. Mistaking fantasy for reality Causes an experience of suffering; Mind is poisoned by interpretation Of consciousness of form. 11. Dissolving figment and fantasy With a mind of compassionate insight, Remain in perfect awareness In order to help all beings. 12. So acquiring conventional virtue Freed from the web of interpretive thought, Insurpassable understanding is gained As Buddha, friend to the world. 13. Knowing the relativity of all, The ultimate truth is always seen; Dismissing the idea of beginning, middle and end The flow is seen as Emptiness. 14. So all samsara and nirvana is seen as it is - Empty and insubstantial, Naked and changeless, Eternally quiescent and illumined. 15. As the figments of a dream Dissolve upon waking, So the confusion of Samsara Fades away in enlightenment. 16. Idealising things of no substance As eternal, substantial and satisfying, Shrouding them in a fog of desire The round of existence arises. 17. The nature of beings is unborn Yet commonly beings are conceived to exist; Both beings and their ideas Are false beliefs. 18. It is nothing but an artifice of mind This birth into an illusory becoming, Into a world of good and evil action With good or bad rebirth to follow. 19. When the wheel of mind ceases to turn All things come to an end. So there is nothing inherently substantial And all things are utterly pure. 20. This great ocean of samsara, Full of delusive thought, Can be crossed in the boat Universal Approach. Who can reach the other side without it? Colophon The Twenty Mahayana Verses, (in Sanskrit, Mahayanavimsaka; in Tibetan: Theg pa chen po nyi shu pa) were composed by the master Nagarjuna. They were translated into Tibetan by the Kashmiri Pandit Ananda and the Bhikshu translator Drakjor Sherab (Grags 'byor shes rab). They have been translated into English by the Anagarika Kunzang Tenzin on the last day of the year 1973 in the hope that the karma of the year may be mitigated. May all beings be happy!