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I don't know. beside the obvious. But let me add something. When I was a kid I read a book about being conscious in my dreams. I immediately had a conscious dream that very night. Some time after I started having them, every now and then. But only when I was full of energy. Now they never happen to me anymore. No matter how much energy do I store. I have read on a "reliable" source (i.e. random page on the net ;-) ) that you need particular substances in your body to have conscious dreams. Probably I just don't have those anymore. Why am I saying this? Because we keep on treating Jing as if it was a single source. But it might be that there are different substances, and we need to have plenty of all of them. Just a passing thought

Hey Scotty.... I have done them several times and each time was incredibly different from each other time. The time that I would say that they "worked the way they are supposed to" was when I ate about 20 grams of them....5 big caps that had been sitting on my altar for probably a year and a half. They basically put me to sleep and made me have some crazy dreams. For me, the benefits of a "trip" (whatever the entheogen) come from the "Forced Inquiry" of it. And the only way to have "forced inquiry" happen is to basically take your ego out of it's comfort zone....to have a "bad trip" as most people term them. For me Amanita Muscaria mushrooms can't do this simply because the ego is nullified at least slightly by the "dream" aspect of the trip. I find the most beneficial trips to be the ones where the ego is fully intact at first, but then is overwhelmed by the Forced Inquiry and is "dissolved" as a result. This can't happen with A.M. in my experience. Maybe if you combined them with a stimulant of some sort, but I highly doubt that, and I am out of the "psychonaut" phase of my life so I have no desire to start experimenting Love, Carson

Zhou, I thought about this because I had the same kind of problem. However, in the end I answered in the positive on the balance of possibility. I take a broad definition of entity as I take the nature of reality to be something like a field of energy (shorthand version!) and that all beings, human, animal, plants are zones of specific vibration or energy pattern. It is therefore possible to have entities which do not possess corporeal bodies in the way we do and exist in a way very different to the ordinary (and therefore limited) human existence. The test for 'real' in this case is not the same as the test for real for another human i.e. you can see, touch, smell etc. and talk to them. I believe therefore in non-human intelligences which exist but which have a different set of rules determining their reality. What for us may be a dream, for instance could be real for them if you see what I mean. You could always argue, as a Buddhist would that these beings do not have selves and therefor are not existent but then that same argument applies to you and me, so in the ordinary sense of the word both us and they do exist. A.

Yeah Easy. Say more about structures, please. I don't agree with your final points 1) and 3) in their entirity and I do not have enough knowledge to discuss 2). The reason I don't fully accept 1) is because of this: ... if it isn't ego, it does not exist. That is a too generalized statement for me to be able to agree with. To 3), well, after reading it a third time I have changed my mind. I agree with 3). The state of sleep is considered the unconscious state. Many of our dreams are dreams in the first person, that is, ego is present. Therefore it does not require consciousness for ego to be present or for self-awareness to be present. Self awareness can happen in the unconscious (sleep-dream) state. Peace & Love!

Namaste Friends.... I thought that the below discussion warranted a new topic instead of threadjacking SB's Ego Inflation topic, so I have moved the related posts over here into a new thread. Here is the first post, written by Kate. (hopefully you don't mind me doing this Kate....if you do, I will have no problem editting this thread out....let me know) Love, Carson Originally posted by Kate in the Ego Inflation thread: Hum. What I am thinking right now is that "ego" is only the content that you decide it's going to be (structurally they are all the same;-)) So you could have a very small one (sorry to anyone to whom the double-entendre is offensive;-)) or you could have a really BIG one - encompassing - oh, I dunno - everything in all of its richness and connectedness- but that would mean you'd have to act accordingly And that is a lot of ff-ing work Apologies for the allusion;-) I love discussions when we start off thinking we're all talking about the same thing, but it has so many perspectives and then we get further on and we might ask ourselves if we are all talking about oranges and if they are from Sienna or not;-) I dunno SB - I think only you can tell your level of Secret Narcissism. If you are interested in Narcissus, read his myth. Or at worst, read Joseph Campbell or Thomas Moore. The question I would ask is why do you require confirmation of anything at all? What I'm wondering about here onTTB quite often is that that we seem to be using a sort of normative (albeit on a scale of what might be considered completely nuts to others;-)) approach to experiences that may or may not have a reference point until some time has passed and enough others have identified (I don't say "had" and we can look at that some other time) the experience to consider it "normal". I know that maps exist and yet they were made for (sometimes) very different cultures, different models, different epochs. Originally posted by CarsonZi in the Ego Inflation thread: Hi Kate and thank you for the really great post.....I hope you don't mind if I jump in where Mr. MarbleHead would not..... Hum indeed! I "think" you are right, but I am still unsure in my heart. I had written a post saying that the ego can be in unconscious aspects of your mind, but in the process of doing so, I realized that I don't actually fully agree with that....this is a great statement that is causing some really deep inquiry here.....thank you. "ego is only the content that you decide it's going to be" Some questions to inquire into: 1.) Can there *be* unconscious mind-content? 2.) Can you honestly be aware of mind-content and decide it *isn't* ego? 3.) Can the ego exist *without* mind-content? I don't know that I have answers to these questions.....I have written and re-written this post about 3 times now, and I still don't know, so I am going to drop these questions into Silence (samyama style) and see what comes up....or doesn't Thank you again for the Inquiry-inducing post Kate! Love, Carson Originally posted by Marblehead in the Ego Inflation thread: Hi Carson, Nice post. Interesting point you brought up. Yes, I think it is a given that ego is a component of our conscious mind. But what about our unconscious mind? The only good representations of our unconscious mind, I think, can be found in our dreams. I think that ego can be seen in many of our dreams. If we are the pivot of the dream then I think that the ego is expressing itself. However, in dreams where we are on the outside viewing ourself in that dream I think that the viewing is being done with an egoless mind. And in line with this thought, when we are in deep meditation I think that once we have become mindless (that is, egoless) we are open to realizations beyond the limits and controls of the ego. These are all new thoughts for me so I am fully open for alternate views. Peace & Love! Originally posted by CarsonZi in the Ego Inflation thread: Hi MarbleHead.... I guess you could ask yourself these two questions: 1.) Are all mind-concepts ego? 2.) Is the unconscious mind ego-less? It is my understanding that once you get to a certain point of Realization that you stop dreaming (but are instead "awake" while sleeping. I believe the state is called "Turiya". And I am also under the understanding that if you were truly "ego-less" you could not exist as a human being on Earth so-to-speak.....that there could be no physical form if you were truly ego-less. So, if both these two concepts were true that would mean that one could not live in Turiya while in human form...which is not the case. This means that (theoretically) you can relieve the awareness of the ego during dreaming, but not completely during any 3 Dimensional existence. Again this is all theoretically and completely speculative, as I do not have personal experience with living from Turiya all day (I have had glimpses during Deep Meditation, but they have never been lasting). I think that as long as we are still have dreams there is ego/conditioning still involved on some level. An "ego-less mind" will not dream in my opinion. Again, purely speculation....or perhaps an "educated guess" Absolutely. Thanks for the conversation. Love, Carson Originally posted by Kate: While Jung is stuck in his stone tower, I'd like to jump back in because I've been really MORE interested in the stuff Carson's referring to that anything else this past while. Carson, you said: 1.) Can there *be* unconscious mind-content? I'm so very not sure about this one. Certainly we habitually accept that there is and that it is even a driving force in us (one of many, now including "genes") Are we still "right" about this? What would it mean for us if we were wrong? This isn't meant to be anything other than an idea. I think what there might be is "habituation" (the "conditioning" that is often referred to by some Buddhists) which just doesn't require consciousness to function. So it's not a driving force unless it's set in motion, just an efficiency. I think there is a point at which it becomes painful BUT this point is reached only when this ability results in a response that isn't actually adapted to the situation at hand. The less than desirable result is then re-fed back into the whole thing. So we might also be looking at a system that is in constant reality-checking mode while also using its very efficient pattern-recognition process. I know I'm using sort of geeky-tech words, but I don't have others that I know to use to tell you what I'm after. 2.) Can you honestly be aware of mind-content and decide it *isn't* ego? Yes I think you can. If you're reading a novel for example and conjuring up the scenes in your mind, you know it isn't "you" - I think the "you" has to have a certain (something;-)) about it to be acceptable to you as a "you". What that might be is?? 3.) Can the ego exist *without* mind-content? I think that it would depend on 1) and 2) Thanks for the interesting discussion!

The problem that Kirkland and others like him will have is that they cannot eliminate Zhuangzi from Taoist ethnography (or there a better word? spiritualography? philosography? or philosophigraphy?). And Zhungzi is very uncompromising and very clear in his approach. He attacks dogmatism of any kind, questions rituals and norms and so on. And he's considered the most important person in Taoism right after Laozi himself. You just can't sweep that shit under any rug. In reality we cannot know what happened long time ago. What we have is our recent past and all the thoughts and records and legends and myths that our recent past grants us. That's it! What's important is this. Instead of establishing what happened or didn't happen back then, what is most useful right now? And right now the most useful thing is something like Zhuangzi's contemplation of phenomena. Religious Taoism is a lot less useful or maybe even harmful. It might be one of the things that Zhuangzi would be horrified of if he saw it develop. It would be a perversion of his thinking. The same thing is mirrored in Lieh Tzu. In Lieh Tzu there is a very good description of an enlightened society. I think it was some emperor who put everything aside and started meditating and contemplating 24/7 when he had a dream. In his dream he saw people who were like cats. No one followed anyone else. No one could be said to be wiser than the other. No one argued with each other and tried to prove anything. And yet any member of this society could perform any phenomenal feat whatsoever. These people had limitless abilities and there were not organized in any way. There was no goverment and no bureaucracy and yet there was spontaneous harmony. I am probably screwing this up somewhat, so if you want a perfect description of this, try to read any translations or originals of Lieh Tzu (pinyin Liezi) you can get your hands on. So if you take 2 of the 3 topmost Taoists, you can get all kinds of hints against religion and against formalities, against bureaucracies and so forth. And almost the entirety of Tao Te Ching is a testament against religion. I was going to pick a quote but then I realized I'd have to pick too many. It's just incompatible with religion from top to bottom.

I did dynamic tensions exercises while in a lucid dream/obe state (not with my physical body), and it caused my physical arms to ache from the insides out for weeks afterwords. It felt like my arms had become balloons, and swollen and stretched out, like someone had squeezed all the blood to the tips of my fingers until they exploded with pooled blood. However it was worth it, but I am not going to share that story here.

Hi MarbleHead.... I guess you could ask yourself these two questions: 1.) Are all mind-concepts ego? 2.) Is the unconscious mind ego-less? It is my understanding that once you get to a certain point of Realization that you stop dreaming (but are instead "awake" while sleeping. I believe the state is called "Turiya". And I am also under the understanding that if you were truly "ego-less" you could not exist as a human being on Earth so-to-speak.....that there could be no physical form if you were truly ego-less. So, if both these two concepts were true that would mean that one could not live in Turiya while in human form...which is not the case. This means that (theoretically) you can relieve the awareness of the ego during dreaming, but not completely during any 3 Dimensional existence. Again this is all theoretically and completely speculative, as I do not have personal experience with living from Turiya all day (I have had glimpses during Deep Meditation, but they have never been lasting). I think that as long as we are still have dreams there is ego/conditioning still involved on some level. An "ego-less mind" will not dream in my opinion. Again, purely speculation....or perhaps an "educated guess" Absolutely. Thanks for the conversation. Love, Carson

Hi Carson, Nice post. Interesting point you brought up. Yes, I think it is a given that ego is a component of our conscious mind. But what about our unconscious mind? The only good representations of our unconscious mind, I think, can be found in our dreams. I think that ego can be seen in many of our dreams. If we are the pivot of the dream then I think that the ego is expressing itself. However, in dreams where we are on the outside viewing ourself in that dream I think that the viewing is being done with an egoless mind. And in line with this thought, when we are in deep meditation I think that once we have become mindless (that is, egoless) we are open to realizations beyond the limits and controls of the ego. These are all new thoughts for me so I am fully open for alternate views. Peace & Love!

The Great Books series is a must have. Great point about the homework. "On education, practical skills should be taught on a rotating schedule (medical school clinical rounds comes to mind). All students train with an accomplished farmer, weaver, mechanic, etc; then older students choose to specialize and apprentice in their favorite field. Basically, every adult in the community should be a part-time teacher. And this should be in addition to formal studies of the Great Books (great idea), history, math, music, science, exercise, etc." Great idea. Keep 'em circulating. Ideally, you would want each of them to have some familiarity with each of the facility's functions; AG, energy, animal husbandry, crafts, etc. "Let's be practical, in what country is all this happening? In most countries education is by now a legal requirement, so the suggestions, to be realistic, and have a chance to be adopted, should take into consideration this." My dream countries would either be Canada (BC) or New Zealand, but there are a lot of intentional communities that are functioning in a similar manner throughout the world - www.ic.org I love Durkhrod's curriculum design. I imagine conventional academics - the Three Rs -playing a slightly larger role than formal Taoist subject matter, at least for children. Permaculture will necessitate a lot of learning too, if all available man-hours are not used up in the process of food production. Thanks for your input. My ego was hoping for a livelier exchange, but I value all of your inputs!

Subjects to teach: 1. TCM 2. Tuina and chi nei tsang 3. Qigong + Internal Martial Arts (IMA) 4. Sitting meditation and star gazing 5. Dream practice 5. Astrology, divination and physiognomy 6. Chinese classics 7. Calligraphy 8. Music 9. Edited: I forgot Diet

Your obviously not a student of Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Your probably an avid stand by or internet listener. He believes, has seen, and has done things that you think are mythical including manifesting a terma from a dream realm into the physical realm plus all his real visions and the science of his different practices that engender miraculous outcomes, well really there is a metaphysics to it. How can you be a student of someone who is a Buddhist and not hold to the basic tenets of the different schools of Buddhism? I actually took an example from his findings and put it into context, but you probably didn't read it. I won't repeat it for you because I think it's a waste of time. I think that your absurd, finding Taoist techniques to support your no-limit poker abilities is quite contrary to anything spiritual. I don't think you've sat for one minute and tried to meditate on the nature of your own mind. I had a friend that lived on Cole. I used to hang out there in the upper Haight for a while as a kid, and used to skateboard all over the city from the 9th ave run up the top of the Parnasus 6 line all the way to Embarcadero. San Francisco is a town to really enjoy! I remember when I was 15 I found 410 dollars in cash on Haight St. The next day I spent all of it, some pot, some tapes and a new tape player!! Wooo hooo!

I am in a perpetual war situation. It's not just a karmic load its a karmic cosmic junk yard. No master can dare want to help me because they might get burnt in the process, i.e taken into considerations all kinds of other wordly powers they might have. Even Santiago is afraid to help. Susan Carlson is not willing either. I am not even sure if i am barred from Shaktipats or not. I tried to get initiation into Mahayoga but for some strange reason did not recieve it. Master Mantak Chia only went so far as to come into my dreams and that too only once. He was doing some kind of a belly dance movement in that dream.He is helping by providing some videos for free. But that do not replace actual PRESENCE of the teacher. In the end all i am left with is practicing the NOW along with what i have learned so far in techniques. Don't have to achieve Kundalini if its not meant to happen in this lifetime. I leave my destiny to LIFE itself which will reveal what is needed in its own time. Thank you very much. wishing you all a smooth journey!

This forum is a dead end, I am not sure why I even post here anymore. It's flooded with spiritual 4chaners, and just plain stupid new age douchebags in general. Bruce's system deals primarily with energetic development, clearing out blockages, nourishing every part of the energetic body, strengthening it, this is the part I thought would be most valuable to TTB, not achieving an OBE, even though that too can be invaluable in a spiritual quest for knowledge. Edgar Cayce and Einstein both made extensive use of this state of consciousness to access higher knowledge. Einstein used a technique where he would drift into a very deep trance and stay mentally focused on a problem, he would enter a lucid dream/ obe state and dream up the answers to his problems. He could engage every sense, in this dream like state, if he went too deep and fell completely asleep he would drop the handful of rocks he was holding to wake himself up and write down his answers. I believe there is valuable knowledge to be gained from the depths of the unconscious mind much more than Einstein, Cayce, Tesla were able to tap into. I've tested Robert's system, I know it works and works well as an energetic development system. I also know that if you can use the OBE state as a tool for acquiring knowledge like Einstein, it can be a powerful resource. Do you know of any good texts for a western reader about developing the yang shen embryo?

So, David has reached almost the equivalent of fourth-level mo-pai, the system used is one of the many versions of the school of thunder and lightning. To my knowledge has not yet put together the tai-chi. Anyway I do not think this is the point, the point is that this power was not born to do good or to heal but to kill. The fact that so you could get for this kind of power is always an evil, if only for those who do not have this power. This school provided he has something to do with the way the lighting seems to be the first to become an x-man, at which point you understand that someone from this dream would not really wake up! BLUE PILL ......................?

Permit me a short excursion before returning to the subject at hand, please. A Rabbi of the mystical persuasion some centuries ago was asked for the secret of life, to which he replied: "Everything is God. Live well. Die easy." I see there's a new book out by Jay Michaelson entitled, "God Is Everything: The Radical Path of Nondual Judaism". I doubt that any of the early spiritual traditions of the Old World grew up without being influenced by the others. Any more than the same could be said of those of the New World. (In both cases, the exchange of traditions seems to have followed well-established trade routes.) Even then, the migration of early explorers from the Old World into the New means that that the ancients of Northern Asia and the Americas must have shared a common mother culture. Which was indisputably one of the animistic/shamanic/mystical world view, and which holds that all matter has a spiritual counterpart, just as material human beings do. It is no surprise, then, that all these great mystical teachings have a profound rapport with nature. The Sufis openly proclaim, "Form Itself is the Beloved". Once, when I was 19 years old and just stepping onto the path, I had a dream that a small coiled "serpent" with drooping mustaches was trying to bite me. It leapt repeatedly at me (I was, of course, somehow back in my parents' living room), trying to kill me with its venom. I danced and whirled around the room, trying to dodge it and then, picking up huge, heavy, weighty, thick, massive, books and throwing them at the spry, lively, quick, leaping serpent. Which of course, had no trouble avoiding being crushed. At last, it leapt a perfectly executed leap and managed to bite me on the little finger of one hand. I shook and shook my hand violently until it let go and raced off toward the bathroom. I followed and watched it disappear back underground, down the drain of the bathtub. I slumped against the wall, sat down, realizing I was going numb and that paralysis was about to set in before I died. Forty years ago and I remember it like it was yesterday. Within a year, I came to recognize the serpent with the mustaches as a dragon, of course. Another year and the rest of the symbolism became clearer. My reliance on books was a necessary evil: I was raised in a culture without the master-teacher tradition. But it held the inevitable risk that I would miss the living reality and become enamored with the dead description. It was the transition point: the "me" before Taoism confronting the "me" in Taoism. So like a true Wayfarer (I mean, Tao Bum), I started to travel. Eventually getting to the Galapagos, to see the place where animals have no fear of people. It was true. You could walk right up to the animals and they looked at you like, "Yes, can I help you?" Blue-footed boobies doing their courtship dance on the top of your hiking boots. Etc. I, personally, have never had any motivation other than a burning curiosity and an insatiable addiction to nature. Which is why I love Taoism above and beyond all the other traditions I have encountered. Because it loves Nature.

Sleep about the same amount as above people, usually meditate when I wake up after dream, and before and after sleep. Its such a great time to meditate. It takes so much time to get close to that relaxed during a sitting meditation. Its all about time and meditation efficiency. Ha ha, but to a normal person, it seems I'm being extra lazy. I've not yet explored the whole realm of sleep deprivation leading to groovy visions and experiences.

6 hours is fine but if I dream I can sleep past 12 hours.. lol

6 hours is fine but if I dream I can sleep past 12 hours.. lol

How would you know if dreaming makes you personally require more sleep? You dream every night regardless of whether or not you remember it

Do you believe that I can dream? Like if I tell you I had a dream and go on to describe it, would you tell me to go fuck myself because there is no evidence of it anywhere to be seen, or would you accept it? What would you do, honestly? What do you do? How do you react to people recounting dreams? What about feelings? If I say I feel weird, do you believe me? So if a taoist builds a boat, is it evidence of taoism? If a qi gong master makes a painting, can this be evidence of qi the same way that when a scientist makes a telescope it is evidence of science?

I read varjahdiya saying that his teacher entered the jhanas when doing dream yoga and I have recently read that one can stay "awake"/aware not only during dreams but also dreamless sleep. Does meditating during sleep give the same benefits as during waking hours? Say that I have already mastered the first jhana awake could I then master the rest only through sleep practice and be able to enter them when awake? If so then that would be amazing because I could add about 7 hours of daily practice. Is it also possible, and if so not unhealthy, to do other stuff when awake in dreamless sleep, like say thinking through what my lecturer said in class that day and repeat french verbs or stuff like that. If so mylearning abilities would undergo a revolution. Just for fun I would then "write" an essay in my head and then write it down the next day. When awake I have sometimes more or less done that with speeches and op-ed pieces and it would be hilarious to have "written" essays in their entirety during sleep just as an experiment. I have noticed that practioners like Santiago and JA MU only sleep about three hours a day and I have seen others here that have cut sleep time by many hours because of cultivation. Is this safe and healthy? Is it like you just don`t sleep anymore if you practice this much or is it like you actually kinda feel like sleeping but if you do some extra rounds of qigong or spend half an hour in Damos Cave you can still manage well? I plan on doing KAP at some point in the future. What normaly happens to sleep time when you practice KAP over several years?

The best way to interpret dreams I know of is called Integral Dream Listening(or Dream Yoga). Its a way to interview the dream character that makes you able to access the unique and deeply personal intention of the dream, from the perspective the dream characters themselves! You just ask the dream character a set of questions that are designed to unfold your own unique connection to the dream character so the character itself can tell you what the meaning of the dream is and what it has to teach you. And also how it can help you in your daily life and development. I have found this method to bring a whole new level to dream interpretation! Instead of forcing an outside pradigm(designed by someone else) onto the character, you learn to LISTEN to what it actually does in your dream. Since the dream is designed by you, it should also be you who interpret it. Not someone else. And even better; let the dream characters themselves TELL you their intentions! Here is the questions: http://www.integraldeeplistening.com/exper...dream-character It might take up to 30 minutes to complete the questions, but if you take the time you will certainly find it was worth it.

Weird. This thread made me dream of a lion too. It was a pet lion, but it was playing with several dogs, trapping them like they were mice. Later there was a huge feud, one lion against about 7 housepets.

The last thing anyone needs is a dull regurgitations of facts like that. Yes, yes, of course you knew. That's irrelevant though and is not what I was hinting at. What do you admire about bears? Why are they your favorite? Why were you surprised and why did you think it was important to remember the feeling of surprise and to then type about it here? Obviously it's important because if it wasn't you'd either forget or not bother to mention it. I'm talking about "but". "But they were really brutal..." hmm.... But.... ?? Dig there. What do you expect from a bear dream? What does bear stand for, in your own mind? Don't give me any cheap answers please because this is not like a quiz. It's for you to find out; your own secret.