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in the end, this isn't so bad, the dream served a purpose..imho.. T

Enough talk. Just do it or don't and move on. With that I am remindes me of a story I was once told. So you want to be an actor. You take one lesson and sit on your ass. A few years later you take another lesson. You keep dreaming of being an actor. Once you even go to an audition. Sometime later you take another lesson sit on your ass and dream. One day you wake up and you have no teeth. The End

Thank you for the welcome everyone! Yuangi, I have a couple comments and questions for you. It is always nice to know there are others who share my experiences. I did find the Sp 21 point. It was easy to find because it hurt so bad...lol. Interestingly, the day you suggested that, I was having extreme pain in that whole region that limited the mobility of my arms. I'm feeling better there now. One thing I do is what I call "intuitive acupressure", but that is not a point I was drawn to before. I didn't know that is what I was doing until I noticed that my hands would go to specific places for self-healing or healing on others for specific ailments. I got a book on acupressure and found that was what I was doing. Part of the problem I have is that my intuitive healing work is so varied, it is hard for me to narrow down my studies. I feel like I have my foot dipped in many pools of water, but I am not submerged in any. It is an interesting journey, though. I am on my way to narrowing the focus. After reading what your girlfriend does, I now know that I also do shaman work because I do those things also, though I have not had a human teacher specifically for it. I wish I did, but I don't even know any. I pray for it, though. I imagine that her healing acupuncture work must be AMAZING with the added healing energies. You have affirmed for me that I need to be studying up on Taoism, Yin and Yang. I had a dream last week where I met someone named, "King Gemini." I did some research on Gemini and from what I found, in Chinese, it refers specifically to Yin and Yang. Why can't my guides just tell me this stuff in a way I can understand??? lol. I know...it's not them...it's me...hahaha. The night after I read your post, I had a dream. Perhaps you may know something about the Chinese Meridian system or something that I do not that may help me with the details? I would greatly appreciate any insight you could offer. (If anyone else can help, that's great, too!) I dreamt that I was lying on a table, it seemed like a sterile hospital environment. There was a young Asian man doing some kind of work on me. He's new. I never met him before. He seemed to be a student because he kept referring over to an older Asian man, whom I recognized as "Jonin". Jonin seemed to be encouraging the younger man in his work on me. I felt like I was there for surgery, but the young man put his hands on my chest and said, "I'm working on your lungs." He seemed to be worried that he would offend me or something, or that he wasn't sure if what he was doing was okay. He didn't seem to lack confidence in what he was doing. It seemed more of a social issue, that he wasn't sure if he was crossing boundaries on me or something. He moved down to my solar plexus and he said, "You have too much blood here." I began to recognize the work he was doing and I nodded and said, "I know the work you are doing," because I recognized he was doing integrated energy therapy. But I didn't understand what he meant by "too much blood." He began pulling "icky stuff" out of my energy field. He was VERY dramatic as if each pull he performed made him woozy and light-headed. Then he said, "You have Three in here, not Two. You should have only Two, not Three." He was still in the solar plexus region. I don't know what that meant. A female "nurse" came in and began to prep my solar plexus region for surgery. She rubbed Iodine on my stomach region. At this point, I didn't know what was going on. I asked and the nurse said, "You need to have it removed." I was okay with it. I wasn't afraid, but I was curious. The young man came to my feet. He took a sharp metal object, like sharp tweezers or something, and began pulling on the inside of my big toe on each foot to remove something. He was very dramatic about that, as well. He did the left foot first. It was soooo painful. I swear it REALLY hurt in the dream! I began to scream at the pain, but then I calmed myself and stopped screaming and did deep breathing instead. With that, I went out of body in the dream. I was now standing outside of myself at the table with the young man. I looked down at my feet. They were quite sore and there were open wounds where he had done the work on the inside of my big toes. I saw the other part of me...lol...lying on the table. My stomach had been cut open and it was filled with a white powdery substance. It was either salt or sugar...maybe both. The young man was down on my left thigh, about half way down. He had made an incision and was pulling up an artery or vein. I had my left hand over my solar plexus where I was cut open and I was doing energy work there while the young man was pulling the vein out of my left leg. As he finished, my middle-finger on my left hand that was over my solar plexus began to vibrate uncontrollably. Almost as if it was separate from me. I showed it to the young man and said, "Look at that!" And we laughed. The dream shifted and I was back in my body and I was no longer on the table. The nurse said, "We were unable to complete the work." I said, "What do you mean?" I could feel that I had been all cut up...the solar plexus, the left leg, both feet. She said, "We couldn't finish it." I said, "So you cut me all open and sewed me back up, but nothing was done?" And the dream ended. I have a bit of an impression on what some parts of the dream meant, and I'm pretty certain it's dealing with some blocked energy channels, and other things, but I'm not sure. Can you offer any wisdom, Yuangi, or others? I would appreciate it very much! Eric, thank you for that information. I actually do almost all of my meditation standing. I have always been led by my guides to stand, and sometimes dance by swaying in meditation. I thought it was because I have focus issues...I can't sit still. It makes it easier for me to focus this way. But maybe it is for other reasons than my inability to sit to meditate. Thank you for that! Oh wow! Lol! That's weird, huh??? I did a little research also, and there is prominent figure in Nicherin Buddhism named Toki Jonin, the warrior thing makes the most sense, I think. Exploring the tree makes sense to me, and especially the metal element. Actually, one of my friends who channels had a guide come through and tell me I needed metal, but I didn't know what that meant. It's beginning to make sense. My physical body has taken a beating over the last year or so. I used to be pretty athletic and not-wussy...lol. Now, I feel "old" and I'm only 34! I will check out Michael Winn, also. Thanks, Chris, for the suggestions and the welcome!

Same thing here, except it was staring at a thumbtack on the wall until the wall was gone. Thought it was crazy of coarse. Utterly mind wrenching while I figured out it was impossible while thinking about it. This was probably one of my first learning experiences about what it means to 'still the mind'. I am grateful for the man who taught me, he retired and went on to live out his dream of selling his boathouse for a grand sailboat and sailing around the world. Thanks Phil, your simple words of wisdom have kept me warm on cold nights. Spectrum

thanks, these are all helpfull. I suppose the chapter that gave me the most confusion, was 48. I guess I can still play football without "private ends to serve". So to renounce all, doesn't mean to renounce all? I guess the idea is to only do what's necessary, and since football is an inner desire though strong, should it be abandoned, or approached with a philosophy of non-attachment? From the five quotes of the masters of Haui Nan: it is five that I'm currently relating to, perhaps I should enjoy what I have now, it only seems natural to plan or anticipate some of the challenges for what is to come ahead. At least day dream a bit. Or is this distracting me from now, or inner quiet. This is often my confusion with zen and my personal desires, but I will continue to read the posts in response and mull those ideas over.

Ch'iao Chi Admonishing Myself sit in the clean breexe sleep in the high white clouds no one can spit in your face when you're there hum a tune, and laugh let the rest of them yoke themselves to millstones hide in a hole, with peace, and joy east? it's within me. and west? that too. clouds may be thick or thin windows may be dark or bright take it easy, you can break the poor old dragon's jaw by pulling teeth for "meaning". stumble along, as upright as you can and don't be avaricious. who tries to hold what flashes in the worldly storm, will drown. flow and you'll fill the forms stop, and you'll leave a hole doing? within me. and hiding? that too. pretend to be stupid, act like a fool pretend to be deaf, to be dumb what can a man make that's lasting? hum a few phrases, pour out more wine dream white clouds coiling your green mountain pillow see everywhere embroidered white with peonies. flourishing? within me. and fading? that too. The uses of not Thirty spokes meet in the hub. Where the wheel isn't is where it's useful. Hollowed out, clay makes a pot. Where the pot's not is where it's useful. Cut doors and windows to make a room. Where the room isn't, there's room for you. So the profit in what is is in the use of what isn't.

Warm greetings and a humble bow to you all! (Come on. Stay with me...it's not THAT long!) I am just going to write spontaneously here, I don't like this kind of thing. But I'm here for something, so I better give some pertinent details. I am going to have to make a very, very long story...very short. I'll do my best, we got time and it doesn't really matter, I guess. I am here because Spirit sent me. For some time, I have been conscious channeling. Prior to conscious channeling, I did not know anything about eastern philosophies or religions. I always considered myself a "spiritual person", but I didn't practice anything in particular other than doing psychic readings for my friends in college, spirit writing, and astral projection from time to time. Not exactly a disciplined spiritual student...hahaha. So, after receiving a Reiki attunement a couple years back, many new things happened. The energy, guides, or whatever you want to call them, began channeling through me. They sing, they dance, they speak in funny accents, they draw cool pictures, and they tell me things and teach me things, and then I go Googling in order to develop a better understanding of how such things connect to the world. Some of the things I have learned through channeling are, I think, some Qi Qong exercises. My hands are guided to do tapping and circular motions over my chakras, (I didn't know what chakras even were until this happened.) They also invoked deep breathing. I call it "belly breathing". They manipulate energy, remove icky stuff, then fill it up with lovin' stuff. I have become a spiritual healer and I pass what my guides teach me along to those I do healing for. I sense the energy, can manipulate it, remove it, and bring light in. I'm also able to intuit what's going on with a person in that way. Some other experiences that factor in...they taught me what I think is yoga, and I have also met animal guides (birds, horse, lion, most recently owl, etc...), was given a pink lotus flower, all of which led to journeying, which led me to a great Tree. I have only just begun to explore the great tree. I don't know what it means. (Is your head spinning, yet?) Essentially, I have been led to some major emotional healing through these experiences (which, I notice in reading above, are impossible to put into a paragraph or less) and this is what I help others to do, as well. I recently took a hiatus from spritual healing, because my health was affected. (Fibromyalgia.) I realize I can not enter back into it until I acquire...something...that I don't yet have. And we are leading up to why I am here! A lot of my work seems to pull me toward Hinduism, particularly to the goddess, Sita. I also think I am doing a bit of shaman-type work. Recently, though, in meditations, I am told to wield my sword, and a new guide named Jonin has come forth to bring it. I've only just begun working with him. I can not find a link through my Hindu studies there. He came to me in a dream. (I haven't Googled "Jonin"...maybe I should...hmmmm.) I am also being told it is time to embrace the fifth element. Researching "Five Elements" today led me to Taoism and then to this place. I am told that I will meet someone here...or perhaps more that one...who can bring me to better understanding of Taoism and parts of my journey and how it is important to my spiritual journey. I'm just following instruction from my guides at the moment. I am saying, "DELETE! DELETE!" And they are saying, "No...keep making an ass of yourself. It's funny." Hahahaha. I warned you, I'm a whackjob. (Not really...I'm a lover and I'm as sane as I can be considering what a day in my life is like...hahaha.) Sooooo, in summary, I guess I am here looking for some guidance on the meaning of a great tree, the five elements, and my sword and what the heck I'm supposed to be wielding with it. And any other help, guidance, friendship, unknowns, discoveries, etc...are always welcomed. Questions? Comments? Laughter? Whew...thank goodness that's over with. In Light, Amy

Chi gung will definately change how you "feel". That is one of the main focuses of chi gung is feeling during practice. Getting out of your head is another way to put it. Kinesthetic another. Taoist mytisism did a nice job of preserving a healthy optimism towards observing the most naturally occuring things. Especially not thinking about anything. Chi Gung practice is renowned for adjusting and balancing biorythmic energy cycles on many levels. One of the first breathing exercises I learned was to elongate and lengthen the breath cycle. The idea being that the body in turn adjusts the mind to be in tune w/ the rhythm. This in turn lengthens and suspends the space between the breaths. The longer and slower the vibration the smoother the ride. This seems to have a certain dialating effect on awareness, say from central to peripheral. A good time to practice is morning before tai ji or chi gung or evening before sleep; one subjective result possibly being a ride into dream lucidity. There is a wide scope to draw from here in relationship to what your energy is being used on. After I was convince chi was real simply by slowing down my breathing, the next series of primary lessons were to learn to tune and adjust the basic ways Chi enters and leaves the body. I thought huh? What about the Gung? But the most basic practical approach is done in a most simple, and so very Chinese! Through methodical Breathing Exercises, Diet, and Health Movements done in perscription or routines outside of the habitual. An example of these basic evening talks from a chance encounter over 10 years ago now is coming directly into play w/ my relationship w/ coffee... 24 days to go. So it was Chi and the Human Body 101: Air Chi, Food & Water Chi, Other Sources of Chi (Meditation/Chi Gung/TaiJiQuan/Gung Fu) After seeing how super duper good food and water makes you feel after opening your pores w/ chi gung or yoga or whatever gets your chi flowing, some type of personal form of PrOgressive-Creative Art are great release valves. For me it naturally fed into the Martial. Overcome through yeilding. Taoist approach to combat. By defeating the opponent inside you can respond to attack clearly. Something like Y0da would say. Exercise #1: 2lb barbell weight: hold it up 45 degree towards a corner in the room. Look through the center into the corner, breath naturally. With the gung going get ruff; breath naturally. When your arm burns, breath naturally and r-e-l-a-x, do not under any circumstance "quit" before making a stream of adjustments to continually float yourself in the center of wu ji. Consciousnly choose to return your arm to it's resting position in time w/ your breathing. Switch sides. Exercise #2: Place hand on a table at rest, preferablly after exercise #1. Raise your hand 1 inch off the table. Relax and replace it on table. Repeat reducing the height in half. Repeat reducing the height by half until your hand is not visably moving. COntinue to reduce movement by half until it's just the intent. Reverse the exercise. These are exercises you can do to help develop a proper wuji foundation if done daily. Longevity Arts are Accumulative. These are also examples of games to play to put the body into various metabolic states. Chi Gung is the study of riding the edges of the various states of routine metabolism including regulation of heat and energy conversions. It's a brilliant tradition with the whole history of traditional (folk not TCM) chinese medicine as it's foundation. Listen to your body. Opening / WuJi / Trinity Postures / TaiJiQuan in 2nd or 3rd depth stance. Chi Gung or TaiJiQuan done very slowly w/ progressive resistance load + punching and kicking slowly shaping and conditioning hands/feet through continually good alignment Gung Fu "Moves" & "Weapons" "Standing Meditation" Learn what you can, in todays my way right away ufc world we are living in days where pre-cultural revolution masters are still alive and are teaching, by the end of our lifetimes they will be gone, and hopefully they will pass on as much cultural wisdom as possible in order to preserve it. I even heard it called Ancient Technology. Preach it brother, preach it! Uh Huh!

hello all ~ I have been lucky enough to have had the opportunity to work with a female peruvian shaman in aya ceremony twice. Just to clarify, in true Daoist style, this is experience is nothing at all what your mind thinks it is before actually taking the medicine. So that clears up some issues about expectation and trepidation. Also, if you experience Ayahuasca yourself, your experience may be nothing at all like what I describe below. I just feel called to share a free flowing presentation of this spirit medicine and how it effected me. I feel that it is important to realize, when working with such plant spirit medicine, that we are actually taking the Spirit of the plant into our body and consciousness. It is a symbiotic process through which the Spirit of Ayahuasca, a female presence known as the Mother Vine, moves through our body, mind and spirit. As a generalization, first she travels through our meridians, in a sense diagnosing our current state. Then she activates the Purge ~ this is when we release toxicity on every level, physical, emotional, and psychic. After the purge, often we find ourselves in a visionary state, where aspects of our life are shown to us. What needs attention in my life? Oh, I need to clean my room . . . holy order. And in my experience, I was shown how to share the transmission I recieved from my journey with others through a state of presence. On another level, there is often a transportation into a realm of geometry, sound, light and fluid Oneness with all that is. This experience is beyond words. And then, on another level, I experienced my Spirit dwelling in the rainforest of Peru, as the Aya spirit did her work with my body. We switched homes for a little while, and learned from one another. After the ceremony, over 6 hours of the shaman singing her Icaros (magical songs of healing taught to her by the plants), there is an overwhelming feeling of Belonging * * tribal consciousness, multi-dimensional connection with Nature, other people, my family. And a renewed sense of purpose, wholeness, dedication to grounding my lessons into the present moment of my life. My qigong practice was what helped me to integrate the lessons of Aya. into my cells, into my heart/mind. I was shown a door . . . and realized that Qigong is the path which opens the door and allows me to walk through on a daily basis. One realization came through so clearly to me ~ that my Qigong teacher, and my Peruvian Shaman are spiritual family. They are doing the same work in the world as if brother and sister. I am so thankful for both of them, and the teachings they share. Ayahuasca and Qigong can be partners in the dance of life. As the great explorers of the Way that all of you are, I suggest keeping an open heart when it comes to the teachers of Nature, the plant spirits. Our culture had done much to demonize these substances as 'evil', and there are remenants of this programming in each of our cells. Perhaps the very reason that they are illegal, is because they teach us to awaken from the 'Matrix', the great dream of our society which tells us we must conform and pay our taxes so that the good war can continue. Sleeping Tiger Awakes Spiritual Sword slays the Demon Returning Everything to the Heavenly Cave. blessings and love qi, riverheron

Weird is right. I saw a classmate that died a little over 15 years ago in a dream. I said to him, "I thought that you died" and the dream ended right there I think http://www.legalrightsadvice.com/NewYorkObserver.jsp In another one, I was walking with my mom into some sort of establishment. The greeter greeted us and said that "parents are going to be held responsible for their children", I gave a look to my mom and gave the "evil laugh".

Realization occurs gradually over what we preceive as time. And of course, the nature of mind is already realized, just like the nature of water is always pure no matter how dirty it is. I spent about an hour on Adyshanti's website reading his articles and looking at his live talks. This is the teaching that Sean is basing his writing here on (I'm just assuming). I think he has a nice and very accessable message. I see a lot of later Hindu thought (think Yogananda's idea of 'Self') mixed with Buddhist flavoring(emptiness). Pretty much Dzogchen. Anybody can benifit from this teaching which is simple and direct and takes about ten minutes to grasp; maybe fifteen if you have never been exposed to any manner of spiritual teaching. The only difference is that in Dzogchen, students are made to go though a lenthy preliminary practice before the teacher would do this style of direct pointing. I think this is helpful. An then, 'afterwords,' you can explore Bodhichitta which is another useful practice to deepen your selflessness. I do think there is truth and of course there is karma. If there was no karma, real or perceived, we (thinking)would not even relatively exist. Of course, if you approach the world with the advice Ayshanti is giving, naturally you are affecting your karma in a positive way. Selflessness is a good frame because it reflects the reality of 'our situation.' It's important to keep in perspective the knowledge that Adyshanti, or Primordial Peace as he has named himself, did go through a process and a serious 14 year apprenticeship with a Zen Master before he 'arrived,' as it were, at his current state. There is definitly work to be done and anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves. Letting go and being in the moment are hardcore practices that involve blood and tears. Realizing your place in the dream takes discipline, not just an educated perspective. Both my parents are philosophy PhD's, they are perfect examples of the limitations of western intellectualism. Both have gone back to the wisdom of spirituality in their retirement and both are still very much in the dream. That's why the teachings of Buddha and the Taoist immortals are so precious. These catagory of teachings come from an enlightened mind. Which just means the divine has exceptional ways to call us back to our source. We should expect greatness from the divine. Not to would be missing half the fun. S

Speaking of ghosts I credit Ron Jeremy for this statement. How is your practice going to help you once you're dead? I think dream practice is invaluable for the 'practice of death'. Being conscious of who and what we are at all times. I consider hell a made up idea, brought on to scare us into a faithfulness. A hungry ghost after life is possible I guess. I've got the locations of a few nice water fall picked out. I figure I'll hang out there, bathe in the waters, soak up the sun, feel the living earth and continue to practice. Maybe fear of death, is more the enemy then death itself. I think its so important not to die scared, lonely or in terror. Or clinging to your possessions, body, past or present, or hardest of all you're loved ones. Michael

I've related some aspects of my experiencing these states of being on other threads...The out of body and lucid dream states took place while my body would have seemed to be unconscious. I thought I had discribed my consciousness as being concentrated in various parts of my body. Why would I make a difference between my consciousness and myself? Do you tell yourself what to think before you think it? Maybe to clarify... that which observes these aspects and retains the memory of them I concider to be the me of my consciousness. And yes where I contact the bliss of the void is indeed deep within my mind/memory/consciousness, but is not the only hyper-cosmic state of being that I am aware of. It is not my goal to end up there. I am not a big proponant of Buddhism. It ranks about the same as Christianity with me, as a system of beliefs that I would follow. I am a Taoist who has faith in science more than esoteric wishful thinking to explain my reality and the potentials of my cosciousness through practice or faith or study or just enjoying my existance...

Vitamin B6 and Melatonin will do this. I've often gone straight into a lucid dream after taking melatonin. Also regarding your question on energy. The Castaneda material references the need for Jing in order to have lucid dreams. T

Dream Journal : Record dreams right when you remember them Suggestion: think about strong dreams as your falling asleep Reality Checks: Develop a standard reality test for youself. This is what has triggered repeatable lucidity. Problem Solving w/ Creative Solutions: Under intense problem solving, spontaneous lucidity regarding creative solutions Lucidity changes from intended to spontaneous through practicing basic principles. Spectrum

When we dream, we invent a past with alot of detail. In fact, we are absolutely certain of the reality of whatever situation we're in. I'm not so sure we don't 'disappear'. Think of your body right now..where was it 5 minutes ago? Maybe you just dreamed it back. I'm not so sure Einstein would necessarily say we can't put our hands through something.. T

Alot of these 'teachers' are very charismatic..as such they don't often censor themselves when they start yapping away. You can't take every sentence and hold them to the flame. There are no 'super powers' because humans have been around for thousands of years and the fact that we have to still talk about whether anyone has actually witnessed a super power speaks for itself. There would have been countless natural abbertions over the tens of thousands of years where people would have had these abilities with no training. Sort of like child prodigies. Just because we can't figure something out doesn't mean it's supernatural either, it just means we don't know what happened. With that said, however, what do you think of this thought experiment? In reality, you and I really don't exist. Between our particles there is far more empty space and these particles are influenced greatly by mere observation. We can all accept that the reality we are experiencing is produced in our brains or better in our consciousness. So the same can be true within a lucid dream, the 'you' and the 'I' really only exist as thought forms. What really is the difference between the lucid dream and a waking experience? Not much because it's 'you' creating both..still with me? Now, all of us who have had lucid dreams know that we all have super powers in those experiences. So, again, what stops us from walking through a wall in our waking experience, if it is merely a construct of the mind and if, like dust particles, it really isn't there at all except because we expect it to be there?? <insert twilight zone music> T

I think Randi has elevated skepticism to the level of a cult. What he's saying is that he is the ultimate judge. This is retarded. At some point in the next few decades a group of serious thinkers will bare out the facts. Look at the history of science; every hundred years evreything we thought we knew changes completely, It's evolving toward the realization the power of the mind is creating "reality" and whatever we can dream eventually becomes reality. This is why it's important to keep an open mind. This doesn't mean ordinary people can just go outside with no training and fly around like immortals, but the technology is out there for that too. We put a man on the moon and there are still people who don't believe it. Not because they think it's a conspiracy; they're just that stupid. This is basic Buddhism.

Lozen - both of my parents are teachers. My dad has been a teacher for 30 years and would never dream of being anything else - but he would be the first person to point out all of the ways the system doesn't equip all children equally. Imagine his frustration when his own daughter (being me!), who is certainly no fool (last time I checked anyway), was completely uninspired by the process of schooling. It would be nice if there were as many methods for learning as there are students to learn. It is impossible to put 1000 kids through school with only one system to teach them with and think you are going to "succeed" with each and every one. Of course, resources, pay levels for teachers, the conditions the students are expected to learn in, the food they get sold at the canteen and 1,000,000 other things have an impact on this system. I don't expect perfection... But, hey - this is just my opinion... L

Michael, it seems to vary some, one friend and I often each/both remembered and later spoke of sharing dreams ( as when sleeping) sometimes one of us didn't remember, but then tried to. That seldom worked. It seems memory is the variable, and memory of sub-conscious or alternative conscious states of being and there related events are much harder to remember, some of the time. What is striking is how some of these dreams we have been describing are so very real in memory! And so very telling in real time applications and resulting states of being in "reality" ala what both twotrees and Taomeow have related earlier... Again my interest in Quantum theory comes to mind as how "idea" may manifest into "being" all the time... Where is Cloud Recluse? Even when some may disparage dreaming - the dreamers delight in and learn to understand something beyond "knowing" when grasping a dream's potential and direction...Martin Luther King may have been onto something more than a catch-phrase!

The active search for and sharing of esoteric knowledge has been going on for many mellenia, my own only since 1968. I hope that most of the young and cock-sure seekers here, don't fade away or burn-out in the decades to come. I have seen it happen to very strong and able practitioners. Their consciousness did not grow with their intake. There is always more to understand than we will ever know. And knowing is not understanding. Knowledge is of no use if the holder of it can not or will not apply the concepts into their reality/dream state and work to make for a better understanding, not a mere accumulation of powerful ideas and states of mind, that bring them self-satisfaction, but do not change how they live and accumulate merit and kharma. When yr kharma hits yr dogma in the here and now ( or in the great beyond), it is what you have done and how you treat yr fellow beings- when you had the chance, that has any register in cosmic value structures. Kharma does not preclude the smack to the head of master to doltish students... Often enough the sillier applications of Qi turn back to simple wind as if blown out of one's ass... And thus, in the hands of the very vapid and selfish, It just raisies a stink, while a true master will heal and cure and develope strengths in others, some will use these abilities as a con-man sells his snake-oil, to get-over on suckers and fools. It takes all kinds, so caviat emptor, take note of attitude and the dynamics of applications when judging those who would seek followers, not mere knowledge and ability.

I remember one dream. In it I was talking to my college room mate who had recently died. I remembered he was dead and it came to that this must be a lucid dream and the conversation went on. Often in lucid dream even with accomplished people, only one side remembers the conversation. I don't know if that proof it didn't really happen, or if you're contacting a person beyond there normal remembering consciouness. Michael

To have lucid dreams: 1. Get a notebook and a pen, put them beside your bed. 2. Every morning write down what you can remember about your dreams. 3. A few times everyday say to yourself "Am I dreaming?" 4. Repeat 2 & 3 until you wake up in a dream. It should not take more than a few weeks. The longer you practice this the easier they become. If you stop practicing the ability to have these dreams will fall off.

This communication with others durring our sleep/dreams is a very interesting aspect of our consciousness. There are a few people (and one dog) who I have pretty constant access to in dream states. We used to phone each-other (not the dog)-and check the experiences we shared. I've accepted these sorts of communications for many decades and hope that serious studies have/will be done about these incounters. (any news about this!?) It may be that we should write a book?!- I have had similar experiences with some who have died. The most striking aspect of those incounters was how tired the dead usually seemed to be and how difficult it seemed to be for them to be present in my dream state. One of the strongest was fairly recent, when my dear friend Michael Savage had been dead for about twenty days or so. His mom had been close to Allen Ginsberg through her mom being Allen's mom's very dear friend... Anyway I was sleeping on a couch at my moms when I had a very lucid visitation from Mike who had brought along Allen and Neil Cassady to show-off for me, who he was hanging with in the great beyond... I remember being dissapointed that Kerouac hadn't come too, but it seems there was a problem with JK's abilities or maybe willingness to manifest in my dream. The whole thing was funny, for the most part as if to say don't worry this ain't so bad a deal... It was THE most exciting visitation I have had while dreaming. I usually awoke with and have maintained a pretty strong memory of several of these events. It has helped me develop my ideas of my real life as consciosness being kept and shared through time and space, without the need of a body. But I am of course in no hurry to check THAT theory out any time soon. No matter what shit hits the fan this life is still more interesting than dreams or astral travel or anything else I have even heard of. edit- this next part belongs on another thread but I'll leave it here and add to the other also...it manifested and needs to be moved... The search for esoteric knowledge has been going on for many mellenia, my own for mere decades. I hope that most of the young and cock-sure seekers here, don't fade away or burn-out in the decades to come. There is always more to understand than we will ever know. And knowing is still not understanding. Knowledge is vapid and of no use if the holder of it can not or will not apply the concepts into their reality/dream state and work to make for a better understanding, not a mere accumulation of powerful ideas and states of mind, that bring them self-satisfaction, but do not change how they live and accumulate merit and kharma. When yr kharma hits yr dogma in the great beyond it is what you have done here when you had the chance that counts. Qi turns back to simple wind when blown out of one's ass... It is still just raising a stink.

But you've been doing this for years and I take it you're not curing cancer either. There are other traditions where the Masters say they're curing cancer through ater. I'm sure David V. is great but he may not be as unique as you say. More power to him if he's allowing himself to be poked and prodded by scientists. That's the path to wider acceptance and thats when it goes from the mystic realm into common place. Your dream where talented qi gong Dr's are at every hospital. Because its the easiest thing in the world to fake, there's got to be objective standards and that is where science shines, usually Part of that dream has to start here, with us, us dreamers. Those who put the bottle infront of the tape. Those who charge their food and drink through conscious intent. Is it new age or are old fashion prayer? We aren't going to cure cancer with it, but maybe it will taste sweeter. Maybe it will be a little healthier. Or maybe just remind us of what we wish to be - more fluid . The majority of us will not be following your path. Your constant division of my side right, all others wrong/dreamers/D&D players(?) is The modern age has given unprecedented access to gurus and teachers of all stripes. When we're ready and if we keep an eye out, our teacher will come. And hopefully we'll wise enough to send them packing when the time is right. Michael