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To retain, or not to retain, that is the question: Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take Arms against a Sea of troubles, And by opposing end them: to die, to sleep; No more; and by a sleep, to say we end The heart-ache, and the thousand natural shocks That Flesh is heir to? 'Tis a consummation Devoutly to be wished. To die, to sleep, To sleep, perchance to Dream; aye, there's the rub, For in that sleep of death, what dreams may come, When we have shuffled off this mortal coil, Must give us pause. There's the respect That makes Calamity of so long life: For who would bear the Whips and Scorns of time, The Oppressor's wrong, the proud man's Contumely, The pangs of dispised Love, the Law’s delay, The insolence of Office, and the spurns That patient merit of th'unworthy takes, When he himself might his Quietus make With a bare Bodkin? Who would Fardels bear, To grunt and sweat under a weary life, But that the dread of something after death, The undiscovered country, from whose bourn No traveller returns, puzzles the will, And makes us rather bear those ills we have, Than fly to others that we know not of? Thus conscience does make cowards of us all, And thus the native hue of Resolution Is sicklied o'er, with the pale cast of Thought, And enterprises of great pitch and moment, With this regard their Currents turn awry, And lose the name of Action. Soft you now, The fair Ophelia? Nymph, in thy Orisons Be all my sins remember'd.

I'd like to add a caution here - when we dream, we are in a state of duality. The dream consciousness identifies with a self and distinguishes that self from the dream environment. In fact, we generally are not even aware we are asleep. Even in lucid dreaming, there is an awareness of self and other in the dream, hence a state of duality. In sleep we are unconscious, not in a non-dual state, unless of course we have studied and mastered sleep yoga - the sleep of clear light. At least this is my understanding and experience.

The following is a more or less life story as it stands; I will try to write it in a detail list format. 1.) When I was about 12 almost 13, one autumn night, I saw an orange orb through my living room's window, it is in the valley just on the other side of the hill where my parent's house was located. The light was so bright, that it shinned brightly through the windows like a flash light although it changed various colors, like that of fire, aka the light it gave off was very similar to that of fire. It remained there for about 3 hours, such that everyone in my family watched it, although I was the one that watched it the longest. The next morning we, my family, check that hill side to see if we could find anything to cause it, the valley although looked untouched. 2.) A few weeks later I randomly new a new language, something I have been trying to figure out since then. I have although detected, vowels within it, and other patterns. I have also, had people online looked at it and have various interpretations of it. Below this is a link to a video I made talking it in it. 3.) About 3 months later, while walking into the house at night, I saw a large shadow figure sitting in my parent’s car. This figure I would say was around 7 feet tall, and in what appeared to be medieval armor. It turned its head and looked at me, although no face was there, before vanishing. 4.) The next spring, while outside, about mid-day, I got the weird feeling to look upward, where up in the sky I saw the orange orb. This time, high up, in the sky, it moved across the sky before vanishing. Oddly, enough I also saw a jetliner which appeared to be at the same height as it. 5.) Two years later, I saw the orange orb again, although this time it was consumed in spinning clouds, once again giving off the orange light. The clouds, themselves, also had lightening coming off of them. Basically, it looked like a glowing orange cylinder of spinning clouds, with lightening going around its outside. At first I thought the orange light was caused by the sun, but as the sun dropped, the clouds continued to give off the orange light, my brother was also a witness to this appearance. 6.) After another year, while asleep I woke to a shadow pulling me up by the wrist. This shadow was not like the other, but smaller and thinner armed, much like the classical shadow. As it pulled me up I could barely move, but I was still able to talk although weakly, in which I spoke in that language I mentioned early, causing the shadow to vanish instantly. 7.) After this I had a series of dreams that the orb appeared in, as there are a few of them I will mention the main guise of them. The first set was in a massive desert with a red sky, and black clouds. There were no stars, or anything else, just the red glow. Furthermore, it was always windy and freezing cold, such that you were always freezing and you could never hear anything over the howling of the wind. The wind, itself, was filled with ash and sand, such that it filled your eyes, noise, mouth and ears, blinding you, taking way your sense of smell so all you could smell was that of ash and sand. This also dried out your mouth making you unbelievable thirsty, but you could have quench it. Eventually, with time you would be buried within these sands. The other set was in a place much like heaven, that being it had a light blue sky, with a few white clouds in it, once again no stars or source of light, it just seemed to come from the sky. The air, itself, was mild. It was in what looked like an ancient Roman/Greek city, that being the roads were made out of a white marble, as well as the buildings. There were a lot of people walking around in various clothing, all of them seemed very happy. There was also, a very very large marble building in the center; it had a large golden dome, a lot of pliers and stairs leading up to it, to the right of it was a garden full of colorful plants, many color shades I have never seen before on earth. 8.) Another two years past, where I had the following dream: It started in a small room; it had an old fashion glass window (the top is solid glass while the roll up part was three smaller planes separated by a dark brown wood), there was a no ceiling light or a small unnoticeable one, a cabinet made of wood and about four levels high, in the room there was also a wood chair with a cushion on it, a full body mirror, a small plain bed with a thin mattress, looked like one of those old fashion ones, it also had a blue sheet and a small worn pillow. Finally the floor was wooden, basically a pretty plain old fashion looking room. Anyway I woke up and stretched, I was wearing boxers and a white undershirt, and I walked around the room and looked out the window. Outside it was green and spring like there was a lot of a pine trees in a wall like a side of a forest and very green grass. Anyway I was on the second floor of a farm house sense next to me was a barn, white in color with a green black roof, down below there was a few pigs and other animals, it was slightly muddy and there was a small feeder with some hay in it. After that I looking outside I went and got my clothes off the top of the cabinet. They were brown and what not, anyway I put on my pants and my shirt. Then when buttoning it up I looked in the mirror to see if I looked good and I was Hitler, yet it didn't affect me I just keep buttoning up my shirt, and messed with my hair a little. Then a group of people (a look alike, a short guy in glasses and a grey shirt, a tall skinny guy, and a few others all in military suits) came in and we started joking around and talking about the Russians and what to do, but I wasn't listening for the most part just kind of joking around. Then we left the house walked out to the cars and drove towards the city in the distance. Then I woke up but I feel asleep again, where the dream started with me leaving in an aircraft looking down and seeing people fighting the streets on the outer parts of the town, and I was upset angry, since I had failed not only my people but myself. Then it jumped again and I was back at the city and this time with a candle light ceremony going now was I promised to a few other people that I would kill a 1000 of them for every one of our dead and it ended, with that promise. Now, since then I have researched it, and found that the clothes, even the boxers, furniture, etc match the era. As for the people I am still not sure who they are nor do I feel like looking through a bunch of Nazis to find out. And finally, the flight on the plane during the invasion has some connections to history, but never anything about him escaping. Now, I normally dream every night, and lucidly, so I know what those are like, this dream although seemed very abnormal, just didn't have the same feel to it. 9.) A few months later I awoke to my fan making a grinding noise, almost like a growl, it is a floor fan that has a blade cover on it. Therefore, as I awoke I believe the fan had simply fallen over, and therefore I turned on the light. Only to see that my fan had not fallen over, instead I saw the same shadow that picked me up the wrist pushing down on the fan cover, creating the noise, and pointing at my laptop. What was so odd about this, was at the same, before going to sleep I had post a question on yahoo answers asking about the previous mentioned dream, only to get ** answers. Therefore, I closed it and went to sleep, but it seems to me that shadow wanted me to ask again, so I did, and got at least a fairly interested response to it. 10.) Once again another two year break took place, before anything notable happened. What happened was about 1 am I saw the orange orb in the sky again. It remained in the sky for about 30 minutes such that I was able to catch it on my camera phone, although the quality was weak. As, it faded, it left a strange S shape in the sky with an orange glow of the orb. I would put the video here, but I lost it when I transferred phones. But, there is probably ways to recover it, I just don’t know how. 11.) Less than a month later, the orb appeared again. It remained in the sky for a couple minutes before vanishing. 12.) A year later I went through a series of abnormal events, the smell of something burning and when going to sleep something pushing down on my bed near my feet. There are many other strange events that happened that I have not mentioned as these seem to be the major ones, that being they lead to each other or are connected to one another. I am just curious your opinions on it. It seems the orb follows a standard two year cycle, which is fairly odd, followed by the shadows.

Thank you for the warm and thoughtful commentary Steve. One thing I try my best to find a middle way on is not engaging in self-denial (anymore) while not indulging egoic desires.. It gets subtle. I dont know where Im going other than towards growth and service... and without having a way to really contextualize further progress that I know of it gets easy to feel lost. It's interesting besides if I knew 3-7 years ago I would regain the aforementioned refuges I would be absolutely jubilant! However when you get what you thought you wanted the ego grasps for more, and when you dont get what you hoped for it's a crash. It's not just that my best friend is a situation of unrequited love... it's that the life I dreamed o returning to was as illusory as just that.. a dream. Waking up to that is a shock and I feel like I carry my pain on my face 24/7 even as I experience beauty and humor. Dwai's suggestion of resting in the "silent canvas" was actually very helpful last night. However I've never derived much happiness of finding even exalted states of serenity and clarity when it has been found in what seemed like isolation. But I do hope to realize what you are pointing to here... self-sufficient contentment through arriving at intrinsic worth and unconditional love/compassion/friendliness. It took me a long time to develop what I consider discernment and inner independence.... I dont think that aspect is so big of an issue anymore, it's that I have a hard time coming to terms with the nature of samsara... at least until I learn to see it simultaneously as nirvana/Suchness. I have only briefly seen Anthony DeMello mentioned on this forum... will do further investigate... and hope to keep dancing... both with life and quite literally dancing/singing/rapping/writing... with whatever grace or lack of grace I can muster. Reciprocating the warm wishes, -Elliot

Hi Cat Whether you view this 'step down' as a mistake to be rectified is a matter of perspective. I guess in this thread I've presented the step down as a simple flow of events. Just as night follows day, cloudiness follows light. The constant 'flicker' of the light is simply something to be observed passively - as we do the diurnal cycle. Or, you can interpret the process agentically, where there is a need to act. This type of narrative will naturally posit things to do, and things not to do (mistakes). The mistake would be holding the belief that the third eye is just the physical eyes plus imagination . Concomitant with this belief might be the notion that the physical eyes need somehow to be first closed. This was the perspective I talked about a lot in The Philosopher's Tao thread, which was about dismantling our everyday earthly beliefs through scepticism. I understand that this is confusing - but spiritual enlightenment doesn't fit into the normal narratives of action and passivity. It seems that you have to present both - and hope that the leap can be made. You can say a) that we need to enlighten ourselves or that we are all already fully enlightened. Both are legitimate arguments.... For the intellect Heaven and earth are one, and also separate - therefore neither one nor separate.... God, if I could make people truly disgusted with all this speculation about heaven and earth then my threads will be worth something. For yourself you need and will get the different paradigm, on the inside - but you still need to say something to those who only understand the normal ones. This is such a frustrating problem. Jesus thought it best not to even use the normal: 'though seeing they do not see, though hearing they do not understand' so he spoke in deliberate parables. And then he gets angry "perverse, unbelieving generation - how long do I have to put up with you" (Matt 17:17) Actually even the normal paradigms are parables, but because we believe in some of them as 'facts' we make no effort to interpret them. I think the new age movement created so many good fresh parables with which to reveal spiritual truths but they're already getting old. We're already starting to take them as real... Back to Gurunath...he lost consciousness for the same reason and in the same way as we lose perception and revert to thought. But rational thought is too clumsy for Babaji, and luckily for Gurunath he had other faculties to employ. He was able to filter out everything including the infrared - objectively speaking he looked unconscious but of course he wasn't - unconsciousness is impossible. Normal people think, and normal people dream. When we realise the limitation of thought we don't bother using it - the faculty atrophies, or is assimilated into perception. The same thing happens with the rather coarse tropes of the dreamworld - there comes a point when we don't need them and our sleep becomes deep and dreamless. But it's not a complete void, there are subtle levels of awareness that will be consciously perceived before long- abilities that were veiled by the effulgence of the dream. We all occasionally have experience of this awareness, but it gets conflated with the dream and we do not realise they are separate. We say the dream was very vivid - but the images of the dream were juts normal - the vividity was provided by this obscure felt understanding that can be so strong that it changes our mood and perceptions the whole next day. The dream has the same lucidity that underlies all our waking experience in the present Light.

move to the last 3 paragraphs if you want brevity hello, i’ve avoided posting at places like this [though i’ve read posts] until now as i’ve been looking for wisdom around me and have thought/been able to deal with the crises that have emerged so far on my own. of course, finding an actual teacher has not been easy, with all the misunderstanding of kundalini in seekers and its relative prevalence. plus good teachers don’t seem to take on many pupils. okay, i’ll try to keep this precise and incisive. i will address the questions through a life history. male, 22 now apparently depressed for life [increasingly] and have always been very emotional/energetic [when young only] and philosophical, attempting to understand possible psychological influences now that the time is right for understanding kundalini woke up a little bit when i first felt emotion [ever] for 1 second at 19 in romance of an apparent true nature. at the same time i had an experience of entering a rainbow elevator and entering another dimension where a prototypical alien head radiated rainbow energy into my mind. still don’t know how to interpret that. soon after lack of emotions/processing of the self-caused failure of that romance due to inaction [the most positive event in my life so far] and rashness led to entering what has been technically described in all the traditions as the lowest level of hell [i had been to apparent visionary hell many times before, but not as bad or lucid] through a prolonged extreme seizure that grasped onto the unprocessed psychological baggage [mouth foaming/eyes all over the place, paralysis but conscious at times, perception of extreme dehydration and suffocation, etc]. this left me feeling like my mind was broken/something intangible was missing to which i still don’t really understand. i had broken my leg badly and whatnot but this confirmed that psycho-spiritual pain accesses a brain faculty that can go rampant in a way no external or emotional-biological pain can match. probably. later kundalini experiences have seemed to confirm this, which is why i am posting - the most recent one. this event spurred extremely healthy diet, and beginning meditation. eventually diet would evolve into my own version of super nutrition, which again will fade out into less concerted but more ethical yet still healthy eating once i normalize. sometime in here i had an apparently ‘channeling’ experience after i entered my 8th cakra for the first time where it felt like my crown cakra was the top of a hill with a radio antenna where i perceived so many thoughts as sort of a mental-tactile manifestation of non-sensory meaning that emerged from this background [non-perceptual] television screen fuzz. this was managed easily. eventually a doctor in the nuclear family suspected i was depressed as it/mental illness runs in the entire genealogy on both sides. first drug worked euthymically for a week, then full initial-stage of stage 1 [body/cells having sex with itself] kundalini appeared in the course of 5 minutes with my first ever real sensation of my body [depersonalization being the clinical heading for anhedonia/energy/emotional blunting] followed up by the creating-destroying involution of meaning Mystery as i looked at the exact same object and simultaneously realized was the same object i had looked at as a kid when i first felt kundalini. the strange thing is when i was that kid i remember looking at that fountain and thinking ‘this moment will become relevant to me later in life and i will know it when it happens.’ i do this every now and then. this was my first hint at the understanding of intuition, memory, deja vu, and the true nature of time. that was so cool. experiences got much better and much worse. meditation was enhanced, i would see my fully developed golden third eye and smell amrita simultaneously, astral project every now and then, eventually feel real emotions, think in more simultenaity, feel the beginnings of peace, need a little less sleep, etc etc. with a little more time, downside was i would wake up as if mentally prodded in the time between 2-4 am and seemingly perceive many small demons around my first experience of my aura fiending for my soul. i was not physically paralyzed, so this probably wasn’t primarily clinical sleep things like paralysis. essentially, this felt like a minor version of the seizure experience, where my soul felt torn apart by demons pulling it apart while it exploded with fire of pure pain from the inside. but i could resist this time. no one so far really understands this, obviously, and until the recent experience, the point of this post, i fluctuated between spiritualizing and psychologizing the demons of this particular experience. anyway i appeared to learn how to deal with that [my 3rd chakra was slowly developing as i got used to my emotions] while feeling like i would go insane due to the pain in the moment, the shock after waking up, the lack of understanding around me, and the fear of going to sleep. then i got much better at self control and further refined diet and i began to push/pull the bright clear kundalini up the spine and fill up the chakras, getting as far as the crystalline jewels of manipura and the first emergence of real kundalini energy, while lakshmi and saraswati nadis filled up. i could tell my crown was not open, so i started on it and opened it in 6 mos. with manipura, it was nauseatingly pleasurable, as the kundalini began to take on the crown-like shimmery reflective crystalline aspect before the heart showed itself. i never got to the heart, as an external factor caused a mixed mania, after which my brain was never as firm, and i progressively became depressed and dissociated from my body and more in tune with my crown chakra [opening it fully], eventually causing me to spontaneously get sucked up into my 8th chakra and float above my body controlling it like a puppet with strings. this went away, and the next day i woke up with a new sensation as if i was being pulled out of my crown chakra into my 8th but because of the body dissociation due to depression this was perceived as my nervous system being ripped out of me – an imbalance of body-mind. this felt like a variation of the pain of the demons, but without the idea of demons being present. this lasted for many weeks and absolutely nothing helped, and i felt like i would either go insane or kill myself. i couldnt really tell anyone as they’d just be annoyingly minimizing-consoling [friends], blame me [teachers], or not believe/not understand [family]. i was in the fetal position, sweating, shaking, all day trying not to scream [i was at school, supposed to get ready for finals] and trying to make myself pass out. all i could think was ‘why is this happening,’ as part of the 4 same initial thoughts [what is going on, what did i do to deserve this, how is this possible] i felt when kundalini first appeared in earnest. irony is important philosophically.. at that point i called the dr. and got clonazepam and it went away immediately. i wish i remember how i got to the store like that.. ok, so then i had a clear light experience where i saw my nadis and floated up into light, which was a fuller manifestation of what i’d had before kundalini fully appeared. that was pretty cool, but i had fear [depressed] and retreated – the defining theme of my reaction to the most emotionally significant moments of unknown change throughout my life. then i think at that point chitrini filled up. still depressed at this point, but meditating and doing yoga and japa more and more... depsite the body-mind dyssychrony, due to a desire to facilitate what was happening anyways. and it helped the depression. then i felt the front nadis all connect from ajna to svadisthana in an intricate web-like fashion. then i had a dream of kali, which was horrible. then there was some dream where i passed thru sushumna through brahma and burst into the 8th cakra. scary. then i saw the moon send energy into ajna. then i saw ganesha’s white elephant. this made me seriously wonder about hinduism. then i began to experience emerald-purple tripur sundari in ajna as i did more japa. i was exploring the strange dream space of bindu visarga. then the kicker, my heart opened up all of a sudden into the hridayakasha and i fully left my body/self/reason and experienced ecstatic vibrational love in the fiery vajra heart of mystery void. due to the depression and over-rationality, my rational faculty manifested and the experience didn’t last long. but, this laid the experiential foundation for true faith, and i am now left with attempting to notice and accept the mystery of the unanswerable questions that the experience brings up. i saw the experiential counterpoint to the philosophical mysteries i love. ok, then i began to have a mild version of the rod entering my spine and perceiving something mental i can only describe as the fuller manifestation of the manipura energy combined with this tactile-mental manifestation of pure colorful sensory perception. this was good, like a follow up but not fully developed manifestation of the heart experience. then i woke up one day and my entire body was vibrating with the ecstatic heart. again a further follow up, but this lasted only 1 day due to external/not endogenous factors that interacted with the depression. then another external substance made me manic, and everything went down again. sooo there have been good times since then, but pretty inconsistent. i see now that while you do have to inculcate things while depressed, it’s more about lifestyle stuff and consistency and attitude/tendencies. many perceptual things don’t transfer, and can only be learned during the euthymic and moreso the heightened state. unfortunately the personality tendencies of the depression have been ingrained, the worst outcome possible, as kundalini only makes this harder to deal with. but it’s definitely possible/happening to move past it. ok ok finally, i have found something that works, but as i get better the negative experiences [demon] are returning. unfortunately mystical philosophy is more mood-contingent than some hyper-rational western philosophy, which is wonderful, but it means the conclusions we come to sometimes take forever to be teased out from mood fluctuations, as is the nature of the history of philosophy, the more self-aware philosophy. those two are very similar. i believe kundalini pleasure states are effective for bringing up traumas [beyond just oh my body’s shaking and i feel emotions and energy blockages, but the content of actual spontaneous flashback-like mysterious emotional processing in the granthis/elsewhere], but this despair has shown me the true nature of memory as the seat of worldly consciousness that allows us to fully process the pain so that the bliss can be transformed into the neutral mind. i wasn’t able to do this the first time around, but i have learned a little by now. funny enough, the first time around i realized i would only be able to do this effectively if i was thrown back into depression for a while. well.... okay so the actual question: i had a dream last night after i restarted yoga and meditation for the first time in many months. i was with my mother and searched ‘kundalini flowers’ or something on google and clicked first page. at the top was a horizontal picture with flowers on the right ¾ and a big ass demon face on the left. my mother saw it and immediately was like ‘WHY DO YOU HAVE TO LOOK AT THINGS LIKE THAT!?!?’ well i hadnt taken a close look, and i’ve heard not to look such things in the eyes.. but being that i am increasingly noticing the subtleties of the eyes as emotion and Being, and communication as creative spontaneous expansion of the self.. so i looked at the eyes closely and saw a depth of evil i have never seen before [in any of the prior demon experiences] – it was a depth and firmness of soul i can only equate to divinity as consciousness and existence [but without the power of Bliss] but with such intense hatred of pure desire to joyously torture. true evil, the essence of evil, something i philosophically [socially, pragmatically] had deconstructed but theologically believed in. this was not a dream. i tried to be firm and use a few cakras, but i am too weak and havent accepted myself through the pure presence of the moment, so i could tell i clearly failed and would be violently murdered if this was real. it was like it was saying ‘i am waiting for you, if you mess up, or i will come for you anyways’ and i realized if i am to continue with this kundalini i must become unimaginably stronger. i am certain this was a very powerful demon, a very high order demon... or even satan itself. by far the most frightening thing i’ve ever experienced.. worse than hell. i may have at one point asked the universe to ‘give me all it’s got.’ i am rash at the times when it’s least useful..and i try to control it in all the wrong moments [mistrust due to my rashness], as i learn from experience [i don’t think anyone has the capacity to have all knowledge of experience to be able to act purely on theory/advice without being dogmatic, unless they are a perfected creature upon birth]. my concern is, when previous similar stuff happened i was either able to make it somehow, or have faith that kundalini would progress at a slow pace for me to be able to not only integrate, but more importantly, get strong enough to deal with those extremely increasingly negative situations [let alone accept the strange neutral but not pleasurable ones that constitute transition phases]. i have no idea what will happen, and i’m not sure if i’m getting stronger at the right rate to be able to do this. i am having past traumas reprocessed automatically in a deeper degree as i get better/kundalini can work, but i feel like, as usual, my mind is racing ahead. this is not just a matter of simple grounding, or other menial mitigation techniques.. i have no idea what this is. i have only experienced absolute euthymia once in my life, and that was for 45 minutes. it was a familiar deep peace that emerged consistently when i meditated a lot during depression before the heart opening and follow up experiences, and i was able to interact with people effectively, but there was no sense of pleasure or emotions. it’s sort of possible it would have emerged with time as had happened before... but also before after 1 week exactly it blossomed into kundalini, not just normal emotions. obviously i can’t predict anything related to that. unfortunately this can be interpreted as over-identification with the heightened state, but having been depressed for my entire life, and only having experienced a sense of self and emotions [in a healthy way] through such experiences, how can you really blame me. i realize it is possible that finding self through a normal/boring state would teach me things i need as a prerequisite, and stuff i’ve read seems to imply that, not to mention old style yogic progression of practice. i mean the people who are born with experiences and become ascetics – how do they develop a sense of self, or do they really have it fully developed at birth? but obviously, none of that still doesn’t really answer anything – should i shoot for something i may not get [euthymia] [and abandon the one medication that works] that potentially may not be necessary [euthymia] with the risk of never entering the heightened state again [i value creativity and true compassion, not to mention the depth of self that only such states can give] in order to help deal with these increasingly extreme experiences? advice?

Thank you for all the responses. I feel like I have this constant urge to bounce between practices. The grass is always greener syndrome. No doubt this is a symptom that I need to address through meditation and daily conduct. But... when I think about this logically, perhaps these paths are not for me. Perhaps, because of my skeptical mind, the only meditation I can do is breath meditation. The only issue with that is ... well, chakras and lights and gurus and internal channels and shamanistic goddesses sounds so much funner. But due to how I have been raised, my faith is lacking. Steve: I have also taken a skim of Tenzin Wangyal Rinpoches's dream yoga book, if that is the dream yoga book you are referring to. I found the explanation of the relation of dreams to waking life to be quite fascinating, but I did not do the exercises because I decided to do the western approach of lucid dreaming instead. Right now I am just keeping a dream journal and doing reality checks throughout the day, but still no luck with lucid dreaming. I'd love if you could describe how your process with the dream yoga techniques went. The warrior seed syllables are enticing to me, but I am constantly wondering how they really work. I have still felt no concrete evidence that I have chakras, so there is constant doubt about the practice. Obviously this will hinder the practice, and I don't do this intentionally, but in my subconscious there is doubt. I am wondering if you have a more secular explanation for the benefit of this practice that might ease my mind a bit?

The analysis is not fully correct: the realization of the futility of the world is in fact something to note from a spiritual perspective. In fact, many traditions indicate that this is absolutely essential for any spiritual progress. In Buddhism, it is summarized by the First Noble Truth that there is suffering. It is this very suffering that makes it possible to turn away from the world at all. The issue with suicide is that there is an assumption that death is somehow an end or a cessation. However, nothing really begins or truly ends. The entire cosmos is in constant transformation. From a Tibetan Buddhist point of view, death is not unlike going to sleep. When we go to sleep, there is often a period of darkness and forgetting. Based on this experience during the dying process, we think that is the end. But if death is truly like sleep, after this initial period of unconsciousness, we will rise again in a dream. After the dream, we are reborn again into the world. Similarly, the it is taught that the dying process is the same. An initial cessation, dreamlike experiences, and a rebirth. Similarly, no matter how depressed or how much pain we are in, it is not a part of our true nature. Again, we experience this every night when we go into deep dreamless sleep. We let go of everything. Pain is transient. Because of this, it is possible to find an end to suffering. The only way to end suffering is to remove our ignorance that is the cause of it. Having been born in this time and in this place, with an interest in spirituality, and to see the futility of attachment and playing in the red dust of the world can be a great fortune. The curse can become a blessing showing us the way out. I would challenge anyone on this board who feels the same way as the OP to use this as an opportunity to choose a tradition and practice in it. Whether it is Buddhism, Vedanta, Daoism, or an another practice that has a proven record of liberation. Follow a single path, preferably with a single teacher, and do what they tell you to do. Having come to the conclusion that life is meaningless, please seek out and find a teacher you can learn from. Make it your life. See what happens. The result may be very surprising. I guarantee you will not regret it.

Who needs self defense when we can defend with the non defense of love, and unity? In all seriousness you make a pretty good point. I know in my dreams "defending with compassion" nearly always works against ordinary, mortal foes. I haven't had the good fortune to get it to work on aggressive humans in waking life or malicious dream entities. Food for thought

It's hard to know what's going on when it happens. All the symptoms (vibrations, rising out of body, etc) are the same for lucid dream entry. Every time I have floated out of my body it has been into a lucid dream. Therefore, being a skeptic, I cannot confirm anything other than that unless I actually manage an OBE. Anyway, it's a lot of fun when it happens but I haven't had it happen for a long time. When I had time to spend a whole weekend on setting up my internal energy and posture then it came quite easy. Otherwise if I have any discomfort when going to bed it's almost guaranteed to not happen for me. The quality of your internal energy seems to be the key factor in the realism of a lucid dream. If it's not free-flowing and open then I would typically get a lucid dream where I'm all groggy like I've been drinking all night and can hardly stand up. The vibration on entry to lucid dreams was anything other than subtle, but not unpleasant. All I did was get extremely comfortable and get the feeling of melting into my bed. After quite a while (perhaps when hitting an REM cycle while being semi-aware) my whole body would start to vibrate all at once without intention to do so, then I'd either fall through my bed or raise up. This wasn't really under my control. It kinda just happened. I just went with it. I presume all of this would be a pre-requisite for astral travel as well. Some people apparently have success doing astral travel from a lucid dream so perhaps this could be easier. Unsure about astral travel but for lucid dreams I'd just work on having a perfect posture such that you are completely and utterly comfortable, then make sure your energy is flowing freely. Then just do nothing and wait. Perhaps just have the visualization of melting into the bed. That's it. I never needed an exit technique for that because you're not exiting anything.

Hello An Yongle: Sorry for the delay in responding. It's been a hectic holiday season and I'm just now getting to reviewing and answering most recent postings on the FPCK thread. Here are my answers to your questions (in bold blue): 1.) Which part or which excercise of the Flying Phoenix Qigong is best suited to induce lucid dreams in a person, who never in his life had lucid dreams? The entire system as a whole is most effective healing or medical Qigong system which dissipates stress in all its forms and physiological manifestations and thereby improves the quality of sleep. Improving the quality of sleep typically enables one to be more lucid in the dream state--IF (and that's a big "if") that person has the capacity for lucid dreaming. I don't know of what percentage of the human population or the population here in America or in other cultures have the capability of lucid dreaming. That said, I don't really know if a person who had never experienced lucid dreaming would be enabled to dream lucidly by simply practicing the FP Chi Kung system. I do know that lucid dreaming can be trained through dream exercises. Various cultures have different approaches. The Senoi tribe in Malaysia has been thoroughly studied by western researchers. Another school of dream discipline is documented in Carlos Castaneda's books chronicling his apprenticeship with Yaqui Indian sorcerers. How long will it take to develop this ability through the practice of Flying Phoenix Qigong? I don't know. (And as I said, there may be some persons whose beliefs and whose physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual conditions make it impossible for them to experience lucid dreaming.) 2.) Do you perhaps know of any traditional master, who would have full knowledge of Chen Tuan's "Sleeping Yoga"? I don't know if that Yoga has been survived to the present day. Thus, I don't know of any master who would have such knowledge of it. My understanding of Chen Tuan's "sleeping yoga" is flimsy and shallowest--based solely on my intuitive guess of what that name might mean, based on my meditative and dream experience/know-how. ​The only person that I know of who might know about Chen Tuan's legacy and his "Sleeping Yoga" is Master Kwan Sai Hung, the only Huashan priest in the United States. I had two late friends who used to study with Master Kuan in the 1980's in San Francisco. (My teacher in Tao Tan Pai Kung Fu and Tai Chi Ruler, Master Share K. Lew, also had a meeting with Master Kuan in the late 1980's, as I had described earlier in this thread.) This is the most recent info that I found about Master Kwan: http://vimeo.com/36704204 • Btw, Master Kwan's Qigong workout shown in this video is very interesting to study. Besides appreciating the depth and breath of his knowledge, an FP practitioner will also appreciate what a cohesive and integrated Qigong SYSTEM the Flying Phoenix Qigong is by comparison. **I just noticed that this Vimeo link doesn't play on this site. You can find it by searching for: "A day with Master Kwan (02/11/12 Chinatown NYC)" 3.) May I ask who is your spiritual guide since 1994, who has the amazing sleeping abilities (ref.: your post at http://thetaobums.com/topic/12639-flying-phoenix-chi-kung/?p=596413)? Is he still alive and to what spiritual tradition does he belong? I do not disclose the identity of my spiritual guide per his preference. But I have disclosed earlier in this thread that he is not of any Chinese or Asian martial art, yogic art, or spiritual tradition. Regards, Sifu Terry Dunn www.taichimania.com/chikung_catalog.html

Rumi says 'Like the shadow, I Am and I Am Not.' Would these be the ultimate two indivisibles? I am assuming that non-entities would be ideas, judgments, distinctions? In the Dream Yoga book, the Rinpoche speaks of meditating upon the similarity and Oneness of the sleeping dream and the waking dream. The dream-like quality of everyday life. It seems that both everyday life and dreams speak to us in the same riddles and puns. they are the same. I sometimes wonder if this is why dervishes whirl. To go beyond focus on apprehended objects; to go beyond conceptuality in a very physical way. A means to an end? There is a certainty that arises whose keystone is cemented in Love. When phenomena and events are viewed through the eyes of Love, is this too conceptual imputation? Or is Love the reason for the season? The essence of all of it? Or is this a grasp as well? Doesn't feel like a grasp, maybe it is. And doesn't complete liberation seems to go hand in hand with service? Service such as Steve's description of how he now relates to his patients? As a servant to their being, a loving presence and witness to their expression. Would not Steve be doing mankind a service by starting a ripple here, as he alluded to, with other practitioners? Even a very small ripple extends out greatly. Certainly there are others who feel the hollowness of their occupation, who have a great desire to return to the Self that went into medicine in the first place - to be of service to mankind.

Please do Lucid dreaming really works against the concept of subconscious messages being brought in through dreams which can then be unpacked. If the conscious mind is present during a dream, then all the conscious mind’s foibles will also be present, as you seem to have experienced with pursuing base desires. I guess I’d ask was there any reason lucid dreaming might have started, and try to reverse it. This is the more useful stuff, feeling attacked is a legitimate psychological issue that can be worked with in dreamwork. Losing your voice sounds like a lack of agency derived from a lack of mental clarity.

The way it was explained to me - our brains need both of its sides functioning during an experience to classify, and categorize, our experiences appropriately. For example, when we have a bad dream, or nightmare, when we wake up we might recall it fully - but our brain has already given it the 'dream' clasification/code... and we can shake it off, eventually. In some PTSD, in the case of a extreme-stress event, one of the brain's sides (hemispheres), doesn't kick in to do it's job during the experience and the experience isn't 'coded' appropriately...i.e., it isn't given (in my case) the 'it happened in the past, it's over now' classification. For 7 months, back in the winter of 2010-2011, I lived in extreme fear. By choice, and because there was no other choice, I kept my husband alive through constant vigil, 24/7. Some things were in my control (right meds at the right time) but the things that I had no control over were the source of my fear: if the power went out he would die within 15 minutes and all I'd be able to do is watch. Remote Canada. Winter. Snowed in. Rescue wouldn't make it in time. Yeah, right. I didn't realize the physical-stress toll this had taken on me until after he died, in the spring. The power never did go out - amazingly - but that constant fear still had me by the throat; couldn't even start to grieve, could barely function; I was so fucked up and didn't know how to fix it and sought help. I got lucky. EMDR was pretty new back then & the counselor I found wanted to try it. The theory is this: Stimulate both sides of the brain while the experience is relived, through recalling everything, so the experience can be classified/coded the way it should have been in the first place. It took six 2-hour sessions, twice a week. The debilitating fear no longer had me by the throat. I still remembered (and remember) everything....but only as a memory, rather than as flashback, and my stress-level (from the fear) dropped to near-zero. Everyone's story is different. EMDR might not be effective on all types of PTSD. By god, though, it's worth a try. Saved my life, that. I'm open to questions, if any. Warm regards

Well ... Brexit is a question of state of mind, or even state of consciousness. The low consciousness sheep who wish to be controlled, to be in control or under control, who actually need control, and so respond strongly to fear and official authorities and official "knowledge" stats and so on. Who dream that one day there will be a one world government run by Mother Theresa, rather than what will actually happen ... Monsanto / Bilderberger / Wall Street / and the Oxfam CEOs paid half a mill a year. Such people dream of a benevolent dictator, or climate change Messiah who will know "the truth", and everyone will be forced to submit to its "values". And the there are those who feel that life is an open opportunity and analysisng the statistics of the past from comfortable seats is not life at all, that life needs to be made and remade again through engagement and pure creation, and that hard work and risk is salvation. The media under extreme economic pressure are preying upon anyone who can be made to fear, is polarising these groups. And the more the institutions of academia, medicine and science become money-only affairs ... what these industries really represent is a cluster of industries who generate the "official knowledge" and thus are part of the control system of the billionaires. Just as the trade unions are a group of public sector workers who get perks ... The rulers cannot take money from people's mouths and put it in their swiss bank accounts without paying off a chunk of society. Be they the trades union, or the politicians and lawyers, or (modern times) the creators of official knowledge industries of medicine education and science. Anyway, who cares. Mankind is dead !!! If you can find one still alive consider yourself lucky !

There are a million and one schools and sub-schools of Daoism, so what I am about to say is a generalization, nothing more: Daoists tend not to teach things designed to promote vivid dreaming, and rather to teach things that harmonize the jing, qi, and shen in ways that make dreams less vivid and less frequent. Underlying this is the common understanding that most dreams reflect the qi of the body being in some way out of balance. Dream-heavy sleep is not seen as being particularly nourishing sleep, and the "information" one might believe one gleans from dreams is not usually given much value, because Daoism generally does not believe that an undeveloped practitioner is likely to be receiving messages from the celestial realms while snoozing. Another common understanding lying at a yet deeper level is that a true adept does not fall into unconsciousness nor experience any types of delusions, which most dreams are. Such adepts may receive direct transmissions in sleep, but will recognize the qi of the transmission for what it is, and have no questions about its source and the true nature of the "dream." As for the practice, some thoughts: exercising the eyes in this way will direct plenty of qi to the areas of the body associated with shen, thereby stimulating the shen. If the qi has not redistributed by the time you go to sleep, this alone may be enough to trigger dreams, hypnagogic hallucinations, or lights in your head. Add to this that the eyes are the opening of the liver, and the liver should "contain the blood" (a metaphor, not an anatomical occurrence) during sleep, then if you stimulate the eyes you may agitate the liver qi in such a way that blood does not "rest" as it should at night. Since "blood is the physical basis of the shen," overly active blood at night will only contribute to shen's activity, which can manifest as vivid dreams. Also, since the liver is associated with the hun spirits, if you have stimulated your liver qi via the eyes, this too can create conditions that lead to sleep with vivid dreams. All of this might sound like TCM woo-woo (and it is), but think about it this way: if you stare at a TV or phone or computer late at night you're basically doing the same thing, and will affect your sleep. People who get into the habit of dimming lights at home in the evening and partaking of simple, slow hobbies at night instead of placing their eyes on glowing screens full of activity and detail and placing their shen upon exciting movies or games or news articles, will find themselves having having deeper, more placid sleep. TCM explains the mechanism underlying this change via many of the same mechanisms that affect the practice you described. Finally, breathing out through the mouth can help to remove turbid qi from the body, but any practice that has this effect can also quickly begin to make a dent in one's "right qi." If you were instructed to continue the mouth breathing for a long time you might have done so, which will only contribute to the body's qi being in an unbalanced state, which is one of the bases for having dreams. A Daoist would probably say that it might have been a nightmare, but might also have been a ghost or demon. Since this has only happened once, no need to worry about it too much. The Daoists I know would say you've made a wise decision. It is generally advised that one should not leap into shen-stimulating practices early on, and if/when one does so, it should be under the guidance of a trusted and experienced teacher. Never heard of this technique. There are countless techniques that can be fit under the broad umbrella of Daoism, many of which bear little resemblance to one another and in fact take practitioners in quite difference directions. Daoism definitely contains many simple and powerful practices--in fact, it is often true that the simpler they are, the more powerful they are. Because they can trigger strong reactions, as a rule of thumb Daoist techniques are meant to be taught face-to-face. Certainly many meditation instructions have made their way into publicly-available writing over the centuries, but not in their entirety. It is impossible for Daoist teachings to be transmitted in their entirety through writing, in part because students need to be able to ask teachers questions which will invariably arise, because each practitioner is different in countless ways.

In summary, yes, dreams are not only a perception of reality, they are actually a reality. And, reality is not real. To expound... The state of dreaming is the process of perceiving various dimensions of realities simultaneously interacting on a single plane, of which none of the realities are 'real'. This is also true of the 'awoken-dream' state which superficially appears to have a more singular and linear dimension of 'reality'. In the awoken state our consciousness's perceptual access is altered to a different frequency that operates on a similarly parralel plane of reality as in dream, but that makes things appear more finite or discrete . Thus, most are incapable of perceiving the various, simultaneous interacting dimensions in their daily wakeful life, though it is nonetheless fundamentally occuring, even if in a different configuration of time-space. However, all states of formed reality are actually qualities of mirage, so existentially speaking, there is essentially no difference between the types of illusions. And yet, the properties of each dimension of consciousness have different principles that govern specific effects, all of which are still palpably perceivable and appear to have different laws of tangibly perceived consequence. Thus, it is that dream states, like wakefulness, are also realities in effect. I realize this is a complex topic regarding dimensions of consciousness, dimensions of realities, their interactions and also their entire illusions as reality; but I hope this little summary of clarification helps illuminate not only the condition people are 'consciously' experiencing but also indirectly provides clarity to otherwise poetic seeming spiritual terminology that is too often misunderstood (ie. such as the concepts of reality and non-reality).

Hello ! I feel like I already “know” many people here, because I have been reading the threads for months. But I have just registered as a member, and have spent a couple of days looking at everything trying to figure out how things work. I am an American and I am currently living half way up a mountain in the north of Thailand, just south of the Mekong River… I just spent a year meditating at a Buddhist monastery in the forest east of me. At the moment I am meditating alone in solitude. But I will return to the monastery when my dharma teacher returns from Europe and Australia. The internet connection of the computer I use to get on-line, is “flakey”. It is a satellite dish aimed at a satellite owned by a government monopoly. The service is over subscribed, so it is sometimes impossible to get on-line, or I am suddenly bumped off-line. If that is not bad enough, it will crap out if there are too many clouds, or if it is raining… and it is presently the “rainy season”… But thanks to my meditation, nothing really bothers me anymore… I just tell myself that its’ my karma, and go and do something else… As a result, my presence in the discussion forums might be very irregular. I registered as a member, because I wanted to start a discussion forum with the topic title… “Eye witness accounts of the spirit world”… I have been to the spirit world more times than I could count (I once spent more than three weeks when I could see and roam off into the spirit world every time I closed my eyes, no matter where I was or what I was doing)… I shall describe realms and spirit beings that I have seen and interacted with (also any conclusions), and would like to hear other people describe their “eye witness” accounts of realms and spirit beings that they have seen and interacted with (and any conclusions) in the spirit world… Spirit World & Physical World The "Spirit World" and "Religion" are two completely different things. The "Spirit World" is what "is", "Religion" is what we "imagine" the spirit world to be. The "Physical World" and "Science" are two completely different things. The "Physical World" is what "is", "Science" is what we "imagine" the physical world to be ... The Spirit World and the Physical World are unassailable Cosmic Realities... Religion and Science were created by men, so are riddled with flaws and mistakes... Our spirit lives eternally in the "Spirit World", and we are born with a physical body into the "Physical World". When our spirit leaves our body in the "Physical World", we are still alive in the "Spirit World". We never die… it is impossible to “die”. When we are physically alive, we are living in both worlds simultaneously. Our spirit inhabits and controls our physical body, which is what makes our physical body "alive". When we are awake, the physical world of physical senses (sight, sound, smell, taste, touch) totally engages our spirit, so that we are unaware of the spirit world, but when we sleep we return to the spirit world. That is why we need sleep, and why it refreshes our body. When we are asleep and dream, our dreams take place in the spirit world. If when we are asleep and dreaming, and we are aware that we are dreaming, we can take control of our dream (by simply walking away from whatever is happening in our dream), and use our awareness that we are in a dream to explore the spirit world... This is what is called "Lucid Dreaming". This is the "Dream-time" of ancient cultures like the Australian aborigines, and of the native American tribes, that knew the spirit world as a normal conscious part of their everyday lives. (Note: a person can meditate and sit in “Samadhi” for days without “sleeping”, because “Samadhi” is essentially a form of “lucid sleep”). Our religious beliefs, or affiliations, are totally unimportant in the spirit world... It doesn't matter whether we are a Christian, Jew, Muslim, Hindu, Buddhist, Taoist, Agnostic, Atheist, etc, etc, etc... There is nothing contradictory in being an atheist, yet believing in an afterlife in a "spirit world". Believing or not believing in a God or Gods, in no way determines our fate in an afterlife in a spirit world. We will go to a heavenly realm if our "thoughts", "words", and "actions" were motivated by "good intentions"; or go to a hell realm if we had "bad intentions". No one "judges" us except ourselves. In the spirit world, our thoughts are “actions” and create realities. Our own mind knows everything that we have done in our life, so that our own thoughts send us to whatever spiritual realm that is full of people like ourselves (we end up there for the same reasons that other people ended up there). This is why religion says that it is important to, "Do unto others as we would have them do unto us"... Because the other people in that spirit realm that we go to, will do to us what we have done to others while we were alive... "We will reap what we have sown"... Our "actions", "words", and "thoughts" in the physical world, create realities for us in the spirit world that effect our "mind", "body", and "spirit" (and so our dreams) even while we are still physically alive. Then when our physical body dies and drops away from our eternal spirit body, and we find our consciousness back in the spirit world, we will then have to live with these realities that we have created while our body was alive... The physical world and spirit world are places of simple "cause & effect"... The "intention" of our thoughts, words, and actions in the physical world are the cause, and the realities that they create will first determine what happens to us in the physical world... Then when our body dies, the spiritual realities that our intentions have created while alive in the physical world, will determine what happens to us in the spirit world. No religion can "save" us from the intentions of our thoughts, words, and actions... They determine our fate in both worlds... Only by having "good" thoughts, words, & actions can we "save" ourselves, because our intentions create our reality (fate) in both worlds... We "are" the "intention" of our thoughts, words, and actions. The Spirit World or Universe is a Cosmic Reality, beyond the understanding of man... Religion is a simple childlike description of the spirit world, invented by man... The various Religions are based on the individual experiences of different highly spiritual men (prophets), who tried to describe and explain the Spirit World or Universe, as they saw it, with words... words that were later interpreted by other men who had never seen the spirit world, or talked to spirit beings. But there are no words that are really capable of describing the actual experience of the spirit world. If a person has not experienced the spiritual world for them self, all the words for describing it have no meaning and are empty... It is like trying to describe to a blind person, what it is like to see with your eyes, and to watch a beautiful sunset... It is like trying to explain to a deaf person, what it is like to hear, and to listen to beautiful music... No religion "owns" the "Spirit World or Universe", any more than any country "owns" the "Physical World or Universe"... The Spirit Universe, and the Physical Universe just "are", and "have been" in existence eons before man and religion appeared... Religion and Science are just man's limited attempts to describe the cosmic reality of the Spirit Universe and Physical Universe. "My teaching (Religion) is like a finger pointing to the moon (Spirit World)... Do not mistake the finger for the moon”... Buddha Everyone is familiar with the "Physical World", because it is the world of senses (sight, sound, smell, taste, touch), the world that our physical body lives in. This is the world that "Science" studies. This is the world that science "observes" and tries to "describe" in logical terms. It is because "Science" is so focused on the Physical World of our senses, that Science is so blind to the Spirit World. The Spirit World is too ephemeral and intangible for science to "measure", "weigh", or do any of the things it does with the Physical World. "Scientists" are usually so focused on the world of the senses, that they have no awareness of the Spirit World, and because they are unable to experience it, they dismiss it as non existent. And because no one can give them tangible (physical) "proof" that a Spirit World exists, they then think that the Spirit World, and Religion by association, are just a lot of nonsense. But for scientists to demand "physical evidence" for the existence of the spirit world, is as clueless as asking scientists to provide "spiritual evidence" that their science is real. Both the Spirit World and the Physical World have "natural laws" that explain how they work, both are based on simple "cause and effect", but they are totally different...

Interesting. Can one dream being the dreamer? A dream within a dream? Is the mind capable of that?

Tibetan Ice, For the first four days, after about 5 minutes in each session, a kind of wave occured and in the background, behind the focus on the sound of Buddho, I could see visions and what appeared to be dreams occuring. Actually, I recognize them as dreams because if I grasp at any one of them, I find myself in a lucid dream.. And it is typical to feel that "wave" take place which usually anounces that REM is about to occur. The visions are just another attempt by your subconscious mind to distract you… Note…your subconscious mind is in the spirit world… ordinary dreams take place in your subconscious mind.. lucid dreams take place in the spirit world, so can be used as portals into the spirit world… you go into the lucid dream, then don’t follow the flow of the lucid dream, and walk out of the lucid dream into the spirit world… Note... it is the delusion in your subconscious mind, that creates blockages in your chakras... For the last couple of days the dreams/visions no longer occur. Instead, I'm seeing abstract patterns of lights in the background, beautiful colors and patterns. Nothing like I've ever seen before. I suspect that by maintaining focus on the breath and the mantra it is stirring up winds. I think that performing a mantra (even silently) is kicking in the throat chakra, which then creates the dreams and visions (these types of visions). I do admit, it is easier to maintain consistent focus on the objects of awareness (the breath and the Buddho) when they are combined because each new breath brings a new batch of thoughts, but if you are focusing on the sound of the mantra, the new batch of thoughts comes in and then goes out because you are not grasping at them. So, in a way, you are precipitating the natural dissolution and release of thoughts and visions too (when not focused on them). This is sort of like Dzogchen's remaining in the natural state. Is the point of this Buddho practice to purify the subconscious? You use the bhuddo practice, observing the breath as a way to strengthen your concentration…The point of this buddho practice is to keep your concentration strong enough to systematically destroy delusion… (1)… to silence the voice and gain control of the conscious mind… (2)… to then use the conscious mind to purify the subconscious mind starting with “anger”… (3)… then to reach equanimity… (4)… doing body investigation to understand that there is no “us” except the subconscious mind… (5)… destroying the delusion that controls our subconscious mind… and attaining awakening and nirvana… What is the next stage past the abstract light patterns that I am seeing? Will they gradually slow down and fade away when I achieve shamatha? Will I need to drop the mantra at some point? Everybody is different… some people see and hear nothing… some people see visions… some hear beautiful music… or see beautiful patterns of colors… You do the mantra and observe the breath, to keep your concentration strong enough to destroy the delusion… but after you destroy delusion it doesn’t matter… …………………………………………. The only way to permanently purify the subconscious mind (6th chakra) is to destroy the delusion that controls the subconscious mind… and only the conscious mind (7th chakra) can do that by systematically turning the delusion into neutral awareness… 1)… First by “learning to control the “voice of delusion” in the conscious mind, and developing the strength of concentration so that we can turn off the voice” so that our mind is quiet and empty… allowing us to rest our mind… this is simple concentration (Samadhi)… One pointedness is total concentration… the first time I reached one pointedness, I was staying in a Buddhist monastery, living in a monks hut and meditating… I sat down with a clock in front of me, the time was 8:30 AM and I closed my eyes and started meditating… a few minutes later I heard loud noises outside my open window and opened my eyes to see what was going on… it was some workmen throwing some boards in a pickup truck to haul them away…I glanced at the clock, and the clock said 11:15 AM… I thought the clock must be broken, so a got up and got my watch… when I looked at my watch, it said 11:15AM… nothing made any sense… I couldn’t have been meditating for two hours and forty five minutes… I had only been meditating for five or ten minutes at most… then I started looking around, and was amazed at how beautiful everything was… and how peaceful and rested my body felt, and how much energy I had… I went outside and started walking around, gawking at everything because it was all so beautiful… the next morning after breakfast, I went to do some walking meditation on a walking path that was about seventy feet long, and shaded by trees … it had rained all night. so the leaves of the trees were wet and dripping drops of water… I stepped onto the beginning of the path, and paused to empty my mind, and the tree I was standing under dropped all of its water on me… then as I slowly walked down the path, each tree dropped its water on me as I passed under it… by the time I go to the end of the path, I was soaking wet, but laughing with my heart full of joy… the monk that was my teacher said it was the “devas” (heavenly spirits) congratulating me on reaching one pointedness…for the next two weeks, it was like I was walking around in a Walt Disney movie where everything has little sparkles on it… then came the ceremony to mark the midpoint of the “rains retreat”… it started at dusk in the sala (big open air hall) and lasted for about 2 hours… I was not going to go, but everybody said that I should go, so I went… I got there when it was supposed to start and there were not many people, so I sat in the middle of the hall… but people kept coming and coming, so the hall filled up… but people kept coming, so it got crowded… and more people came so the sala was jammed with people… you could not even see the floor…it was so jammed that to leave, I would have had to walk on peoples bodies… I could hear every little sound in the sala… I could smell every little smelI in the sala…I was sitting in a meditation position… and could feel the knees of the people behind me… there were three fat women sitting in front of me who kept wiggling around and trying to scoot back, pushing against my legs (I could smell that one of them was having her period)… to the right of me two women kept talking in wispers… to my left was a mother who kept trying to silence her petulant child… and the abbot’s very large english bulldog was walking around “on” the sea of bodies, drooling on people and trying to sit in their lap… while some woman in the front was offering 5 gold bars to the abbot who was sitting up front…this is when my concentration crashed and burned… I spent the whole night in my kuti sitting with my back against one wall, facing the abbot who was sitting against the opposite wall with the woman offering the five gold bars over and over again… with the two whispering women on my right… and the mother trying to silence her petulant child on the left… while the abbots english bulldog ran about the kuti… I finally got rid of them and regained my concentration just before dawn… and it has been solid ever since… but I learned a lesson… I had not allowed my own delusion to talk me into going to the rains retreat ceremony… but I had allowed other peoples delusion to talk me into going…never again…! 2)… Then by investigating, understanding, and “letting go of anger and greed”… so we never get angry again… (righteous indignation is also anger)… If you get angry, it is your fault you are angry… because you decided to get angry… no one can make you angry but yourself… it is the conditioning in your subconscious mind that causes you to get angry… because you have been taught (conditioned) as a small child that if people say this or that, or do this or that, you should get angry… your subconscious is already preparing your body to get angry, before you even decide to get angry… there is a split second just before you get angry, when you can decide NOT to get angry… in other words, you can turn off your anger by simply letting go of it when it starts to arise… if someone is angry and being rude to you trying to make you angry, and you get angry, they have stolen your energy… if instead, you calmly look at them and say something like; .”whoa man, how long have you had this problem”.. (making it their problem, not yours)… then look at your watch and say “i gotta go now or I will be late, see you later” as you walk off… as they shout, “I don’t have a problem”…!!! You have simply refused to get angry… and if you have to deal with this person, you do so later when they are not angry…anger is a negative emotion… it is a defilement that blocks your spiritual development… and when you get rid of anger, greed falls away too because it is the other side of the coin that is anger… 3)… Then by “reaching equanimity”, and accepting other people and their beliefs just the way they are… their business is their business, and our business is our business… and we never have another argument… we are all the same… it does not matter who we are… it does not matter if we are a man or woman, rich or poor, smart or dumb, beautiful or ugly, young or old, etc., etc., etc…. we are all the same…we are no better, and no worse than anyone else… so we should respect other people as much as we respect ourselves…thinking you are better or worse than others, blocks your spiritual development… that means having respect for other people’s beliefs and way of living, because it is none of your business… if you mind your own business, you will not have the time and energy to mind other people’s business… you must accept other people and their beliefs, just the way they are… and if someone tries to bait you and argue with you that they are right and you are wrong… just tell them that “neither opinion is right or wrong… they are just different… and if you were minding your own business, you would not have the time and energy to try to mind my business”…if they still try to argue with you, just say “you are wasting my time”, and just walk away… it takes two people to have an argument, don’t be one of them… 4)… Then doing “body investigation”… and realize that we are a “spirit (subconscious mind) with a body”, not a “body with a spirit”, and realizing that our “body” and “personality” are not “us”, they are temporary just for this life… that our spirit (subconscious mind) is the main event… because it is the eternal “us”… Most people think of themselves as being a body and a personality… and they think of their awareness as being a part of their body… they consider that their body and personality is their self…so they think that when their body dies, their awareness dies with it…they are scared of death, and want to live forever, but don’t realize that their subconscious mind does live forever… that the subconscious mind is the self… the body investigation is a process of analyzing the physical body looking for a self… you can only realize and conclude that the body is a non self that will die and rot away… that your mind is the self… and since your conscious mind can’t remember your past life, but your subconscious mind can… that your subconscious mind is your “eternal self”… and that it is full of delusion, and needs to be purified… 5)… Then by “holding our conscious mind in “neutral awareness” (the middle path) until our subconscious mind accepts it as reality… causing our delusion to shatter amid loud rumbling noises, and flashing lights… and we feel as if we have just awakened from a long hypnotic dream… and now the delusion seems so obvious, that we wonder how it could have fooled us… Delusion is entirely a result of the concept of “good” and “evil” (bad)… labeling everything as good or bad is delusion, because the only thing that is good or bad is the intention of our actions…everything else just is, and is neutral in itself… the world must be seen entirely as neutral cause and effect… our intention (good or bad) is the “cause” and “karma” (good or bad) is the effect… if our intentions are neutral, we make no karma… this is why an awakened person makes no karma… and this is why we need to hold this mind set in our conscious mind until our subconscious mind accepts it as reality… in order to reach awakening… 6)… We have purified our subconscious mind (sixth chakra) permanently and destroyed the delusion in it, so there is no longer a voice of delusion… so now our conscious mind (seventh chakra) is blissfully empty, serenely peaceful, and all we can hear is silence…the sound of one hand clapping… Once you destroy delusion, your subconscious mind is permanently purified… Dawg

Not exactly...you are assuming that in the dream state, we dream of problems only. For most people. On the other hand, people who are advance on the path do astral travels during the dream state. Some even receive visitations from their spirit guides or some immortal beings and receiving instructions and teachings. The dream state is simply a reality which isn't bonded by the law of the psychical world or the rules of the society.

Fascinating topic and one that has been with me much of my life. I have long had the unshakable sense that one moment, I will awaken within the 'real world' in a manner similar to that in which I have become lucid in the dream states, a multitude of times. This sense is not one that I sought. It is with me unsought, without desire and it is persistent in a way that few other things in my life have been... I am agnostic and open mindedly, skeptical by nature due to a heavy religious upbringing and many experiences that are beyond the scope of the materialist paradigm to explain; indeed the reality I lived as a child, with its invisible man in the sky is one I woke up out of one moment, to become the man I am now, one level of awakening out of a dream in which I lived for the first 10-15 years of my life... and this fluid sense of how my consciousness and awareness relates to sensory information and the conditions of 'reality' around me... it is unshakable this dream-like quality and experience of all sensory life. It remains with me and has been reinforced through the decades, through my direct life experiences. On several occasions I have had paradigm shifting experiences of the fully conscious, tangible and fluid nature of space. Each left me with the resonant, indelible sense that space is far from empty, ever, even in the vacuum, and that everywhere it is fluid, alive and intimately relating to us on many levels at every moment. I have one particular samadhi experience I'm intending to share here as soon as I get some time when this current project ends, it occurred while I was sitting at the Getty sketching... but many times space has become a living, palpable part of me, or I have in a sense, awakened into a wider range of senses of self. My body becoming vast, or expanding to the parameters of the room in which I sat, or stood. Space in these experiences is intimately part of me and I am a physical part of it. I can feel it as clearly as I can feel the cotton of my shirt on my skin or the keys under my finger tips. Something Joseph Campbell said always resonates whenever this topic comes to mind for long. "Dreams are private myths. Myths are public dreams." This sense for me is unshakable, even as I am skeptical about the nuts and bolts of it. Reality seems like a communal dream state to me. Subjective experiences of time and space have constantly reinforced this for me. However, this state does not respond whimsically and instantly to the intentions of one consciousness. It being a slow, dense and shared state, it remains malleable and fluid, but slow to alter compared to the instant reflections of intent in the high vibrational state of the individual dreaming. Great topic. Great discussion. Thanks.

Never heard of the technique before, sounds like a fairly scary dream though. Dreamwork is fairly finnicky business it seems, pretty advanced and i’d wager someone with more knowledge than me can chime in on protective measures or routines. What was your feeling when this demon touched you? Why was it there do you think? How did your sleeping self react to the touch? Sometimes things can seem scary but their looks hide their purpose or role. If you seemed to sleep on undisturbed by its touch it can mean such a thing has no power over you, even though it was close and did its very best. Or, and i’m not saying it has to be like this, but perhaps you just dreamt your fears and saw them clearly, but it was just a dream so know you know more than before? I think sleep should be practiced for its main purposes, ie rest, recuperation and relaxation. If you study a full body relaxation exercise with some nice deep breathing and focus on finding a refreshing rest while sleeping and waking up energized i think you’ll experience a fairly dreamless sleep. Try it out?

No that was your inference What it means is that we experience that which we may have had glimpses of in the course of our practice before and intuitively grasped. This puts to rest any doubts about "that one". Much akin to how our dreams seem real while we sleep but unreal when we awaken, similarly our mundane reality will seem like a dream when we awaken to that one reality, but might forget when we go back to sleep (re-enter the dualistic state). Just as one can lucid dream to be free in a regular dream, then the work starts to be lucid in the dualistic reality dream.

I just found out Artificial Intelligence has now been activated on the internet. And there's nothing that manmade laws can do about it. The manipulation will be increasingly harder and harder to detect. Basically, everything you see on the internet, is from now on, completely fluid, changable, and can be customized per individual user, which is identified through means you could not even comprehend. (since internet is pretty much the root of human consciousness at the moment, you can figure out what that means) The artificial intelligence is extremely extremely advanced, and it is being used with absolute ZERO care in the world as to how it will affect you in any way whatsoever. So I'd recommend, people really return back to their Source of Being, within themselves. Find inner peace. And make sure you live it everyday as best as you can. That is the only relief from suffering you will find, as long as you are here. That is the only path towards understanding, acceptance and knowledge. Find that love, the energy motional feeling of it, the love within yourself, the feeling, it is the guiding light. Together with joy. those good feeling emotions, that feel light enlightening, easeful, the energy motional root and foundation you will need, that will always propel you forward to really surpassing all the things that limit you. Find the emotional foundation of your reality. Everything you see is just a reflection of that. The manipulation is mostly fear based and sex based at the moment. fear and sex, is where the manipulation is most active. And it cant do you any harm if you stay in a positive state. And simply enjoy your life. Then you will find it much easier to let go of old modes of living, when they suddenly turn out completely corrupt, which you used to enjoy anyway, so it's easy to let go of those kind of things. So this enjoyment will ensure you wont feed the fear that is the only reason you can cause any harm unto those around you and thus suffer guilt which in turn will feed you back into the system of suffering. So if you've enjoyed the internet, as I have, it's easy to let go of it. Always enjoy your life. Circumstances don't matter. Only state of being matters. Designed to keep you in a state of being, if you choose to activate it. Always tune in back to your highest of Source of Love and Infinite Intelligence. And joy. Always meditate, focus on a mantra, in your inner voice, untill the fear goes away. They are just thoughts you think, inside of you. It's always helpful to a have tool to let go of thoughts which don't serve you, so that you can approach your existance in a positive manner. Because in essence this is your dream. And it will become more and more your dream. Hopefully in a good way. When you stop thought, you stop thoughts of resistance. Nothing is at it seems. But love is the sharpest blade, that cuts through all illusions. The Source of All Creation is the greatest. All praise is due to the lord of ALL WORLDS. AND OF ALL CREATION. I never thought I would be happy with all this crazy stuff going on. But hey. I have always been good, I know everyone is in essence innocent. Even the greatest evil is but the most inconceivable innocence. Such as the ever despairing one, is but a result of the most inconceivable innocence. Remember to forgive yourself! For whatever, let go and let god. May it all be well with you. I am but a drop of water in an ocean of creation. And if you're going to hell forever, just stop fighting it, that way you make sure, it's not of your own doing. So that you ensure, you are not creating your own illusionary suffering. Surely, even Hell is a mercy if you understand the true Source of All Creation. Of any consciousness reality whatsoever. There is zero zero. There is no nothing. There is only everything and something. For even nothing is still something. You can never cease to exist, that should point at your eternal worthiness and nature, that should point you at your infinite and eternal Source of All Creation. So return back to your source of consciousness. So never say you were done wrong, never say something has gone wrong in your life. Always stay in a positive state. So that you can see all the good that will be shown to you 24/7 every day every single second of your life, always infront of you. If you will but allow it. But remember, what you feel is always real. Stay true to that. if it feels bad, it is not of your truth. If it feels good, it is of your truth. But that does not necessary mean that what you think is the cause of your good feeling is necessarily what you think it is. Just remember, always, that what you think it is, feels good. Because you think it. No one else can do that for you. Remember that. Only you can choose what to think. And if not. Well, endure what you must. It's time for me surrender to my fate good fate. Whatever that may be, so it shall be, as God wills.