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I don't know what Turiya is and probably can't even pronounce it... and what I share as experience may be some other Zulu sounding word instead... so ignore me as needed. I've had this weird experience where I realize I am dreaming and watch it a while and then just tell myself to wake up and stop the dream... and I do... but after waking up, the dream continues (ie: I continue to see it play out)... and I go back to sleep and it just keeps going. I've had the opposite too: Dreaming while awake; a steady stream of visions play like a movie. Back to Turiya..

Probably one of the best I've come across conveying the depths of the "stateless state". From, "Turiya - The God State" by SantataGamana. It should be noted that the author acknowledges the concept of "wakeful sleep", but doesn't just leave the reader with that bare vague claim. He actually describes Why the concept is accurate as a pointer, which creates an understanding that integrates the experience for us who've had glimpses, or days, or weeks of literally, "living the dream."

On Diogenese Thereupon many statesmen and philosophers came to Alexander with their congratulations, and he expected that Diogenes of Sinope also, who was tarrying in Corinth, would do likewise. But since that philosopher took not the slightest notice of Alexander, and continued to enjoy his leisure in the suburb Craneion, Alexander went in person to see him; and he found him lying in the sun. Diogenes raised himself up a little when he saw so many people coming towards him, and fixed his eyes upon Alexander. And when that monarch addressed him with greetings, and asked if he wanted anything, "Yes," said Diogenes, "stand a little out of my sun."[7] It is said that Alexander was so struck by this, and admired so much the haughtiness and grandeur of the man who had nothing but scorn for him, that he said to his followers, who were laughing and jesting about the philosopher as they went away, "But truly, if I were not Alexander, I would be Diogenes." Those people that clung to great happy imaginings of this world, they are crestfallen if something disturbs the dream. Like Buddha was. But he allowed himself to be crestfallen, and then he began the long walk home.

I can try to simplify. But, in order to answer this, we need to explore the states jagrat chitta or the consciousness present during the waking state and the components of the mind that I discussed earlier. In the framework I follow, the mind is basically made up of the 4 components (intellect (buddhi), manas (sensory mind), chitta (the subconscious, the mental formations, the habit energy, the vasanas or the impressions that we have been storing all along) and finally the ego that identifies as 'I' - ahamkara). I explained these parts and which ones functions during sleep and waking states with a picture I borrowed from Integral Yoga or Aurobindo earlier. Not sure if you checked that post. The sensory mind with sense organs and sense perceptions is generally off during sleep. Some may claim intellect is always on, but it is obscured with the other states. Like in a person who is drunk, the power of the intellect is diminished or non-existent at times. In the sleep state intellect can come on at times, but generally this portion of the mind is obscured. The ahamkara or the 'I' identification is obviously present in the waking and dream states, yet our true nature is covered by tamas (ignorance) in the deep sleep state. It is the Vasana Chitta or the subconscious layer of the mind that is always active 24/7. During the sleep phase it is predominant. During the waking state, we think or feel that it is the waking conscious that is acting and making decisions, but truly it is the subconscious or chitta layer that drives things. A majority of our actions are based on our instincts, our preferences, likes and dislikes, the habit energies, mental formations and impressions we have been storing all along. This chitta is built from the start of our existence when the entire creation came upon. This influences each and every one of our actions. Some of these subconscious impressions get released during the sleep state which we experience as dreams. All of this I have explained so far is to understand the waking, dream and deep sleep states. Just because the sensory mind is present at times temporarily or parts of the sensory mind is awake in some all the times due to their special abilities (siddhis), it does not indicate Turiya in all of these cases. Like Swami Rama example I gave, he was able to listen to everything while sleeping and snoring under laboratory medical observation. It does not automatically indicate Turiya or Turiyatita in my view. As far as your example of the woman, I cannot honestly make a determination if she is in Turiya or not. It would be wrong and judgemental if I do so. I think each person has to make a honest determination for themselves when they get there. But, it is possible to easily confuse other experiences of mind with the much higher attainments such as Turiya and Turiyatita that are beyond local and universal mind. That is the entire point of this thread. To bring awareness, let each person question and decide for themselves about the states. Not just listen and accept because some person claiming to be awakened says so. If only certain senses are present during the sleep state, that does not automatically indicate the state of Turiya. Those who have reached Turiya and Turiyatita states have reached the highest state of realizations. Generally they radiate such realization and if we are close to them, we may be able to observe and feel. Such people always act with compassion and their activities are geared towards helping others and relieving the suffering of all sentient beings. There is one clear distinction of the jagrat avastha or the waking state that I have mentioned already. It is the vividness or objectivity of the worldly experience due to the result of the fully functional sensory mind with the 5 sense perceptions and the 5 sense organs. This state of the waking experience does not carry into the sleep states, whether it is dream or deep sleep. Each person can decide for themselves from their own experience. We can only honestly question and decide based on our experiences. We all know for that the vividness and objectivity of the worldly experience present in the waking state is not present in sleep states. Except in lucid dreaming, even then the actual sense organs of the sensory mind are absent. And it is not necessary to carry such waking consciousness into sleep for the higher realizations. Voidisyinyang explained such states as temporary Nirvikalpa Samadhi states. I tend to agree with him. It is not my intention to discount anyone's experience. Some people waste tremendous amounts of time in trying to get lucid dreaming experiences, or trying to bring conscious awareness into the sleep. If you read/check some other places online, you might see people taking supplements, drugs or going to any lengths to get such experiences, assuming it is some high achievement. If a person visits sites like Amazon or retail stores, there are products sold claiming they induce certain sleep experiences or lucid dreaming or even more. My intention is to bring some awareness into this whole picture. Take claims of achievements and experiences in sleep with a pinch of salt. The initial link I posted stated some of these methods that induce lucid dreaming can cause harm and affect the normal sleep that we all need as humans. In my view simple mindfulness practice during the waking state, automatically takes over awareness to all other states. Getting a good night's sleep without trying to achieve something during the sleep also is the best in my opinion. Eventually everyone progresses and moves on to higher states. I have accepted there is some value to lucid dreaming and it can make a person understand that everything is just a projection of the mind. Such value from this experience is limited in my views. Some others do not agree and I am okay with that. Why chase some experiences or take the words or claims of some to believe it is possible to maintain the consciousness such the waking state in other states like dream and deep sleep. Even talk about Turiya, Turiyatita, etc are all of limited value compared to being present and reside just in the here and now.

For a Self-aware person, there is no longer the delusion that the "waking, dream and deep sleep" states are the end-all and be-all of existence. He/she is not fazed by any happenings in the world (or other worlds either). He/she won't have any issues with anything naturally rising in awareness, as there is the constant cognition of being free from whatever arises and falls in these three states. In other words, there is neither resistance to what comes and goes, nor attachment. So the Self-aware person progressively becomes free (as abidance deepens). In my experience the recognition of one's True Nature is a gate through which there is no turning back to ignorance (of Self-nature). However, the causal tendencies (karma) take a while to run dry.

It goes back to what I call "awareness". It is the "light" which makes knowing possible. The "ultimate" reality, so to speak. Having a dream doesn't mean there isn't unbroken awareness, but rather, that the focus is on the story in the dream, so the unbroken awareness seems to be obscured. Similarly, in waking state, when actions happen, it appears to be a departure from this unbroken underlying awareness, but is only an obscuration due to focus on the actions/results etc. Likewise, in deep sleep, when nothing seems to happen, it is just that there are no objects in the awareness (if there were, it would not be deep sleep but dreaming or waking). The underlying unbroken awareness is never really "broken". It only appears to be so as a result of conditioning -- the mind wants to grasp at objects; and identification with the stories (personality, ego, etc etc). When one is stabilized in abiding as awareness, there is always a constant - awareness is awareness of being aware (or Self-awareness).

From the Pratyabhijnahrdayam The Secret of Self- Recognition Turiya, the fourth state of consciousness. When he is in deep sleep, he has no dreaming or waking consciousness. In every man, there is a fourth (turiya) state of consciousness also which is the witness of the other three states. Turiya is a relative term. It is in relation to the other three states that it is called turiya or fourth. There is no succession in turiya as there is in the other three states. It is ever present as the witnessing consciousness of the three states. Turyatita means transcending the fourth state. lt is a state beyond the turya. Turya is turiya (fourth) in relation to the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep; but in turyatita, the above three states as separate states disappear. Hence when the three states have disappeared, tarya can no longer be called turya. It is called turyatita in which the turya or fourth state has been transcended. It is a state where pure consciousness is like an ocean without any ruffle whatsoever, and is full of bliss. It is the consciousness of Siva himself or one who has reached that stage in which the entire universe appears as his Self. In turya, manas becomes attenuated; in turyatita it is dissolved in sakti. When the turya state becomes fully developed and reaches perfection, it is transformed into turyatita state. In this state, everything appears to the individual as Siva or Self.

Thanks. But that does not really answer my question. What do you mean by there is unbroken awareness? If you have a dream in the first place, doesn't that simply prove that you don't have unbroken awareness, because some dream popped up? Just like if you mind runs off in some daydream during the waking state.

No lucid dreaming is not same as Turiya. But it is a step in the right direction. There are two aspects to self realization (in this context) in my experience. Knowing that the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep arise and fall in an unbroken awareness that underlies them. abiding as that awareness, knowing that IS our true nature. When that Abidance happens is when there is unbroken awareness (of being aware) throughout the three states. This doesn’t require any fancy stuff. It is a very subtle and yet very available recognition. All that is needed is for the mind to become still (which is where all the doings of the spiritual world go - i.e., effort to still the mind )

So in your view, is something like lucid dreaming the same as Turiya? As the person maintains awareness of them-self in the dream? As this seems to be the fundamental point of the debate to me. Or as you succinctly said, whether there is a "beyond the beyond" or not.

In the book, "The Message of Our Time" (written by Pir Vilayat Khan about the life of his father, the Sufi Mystic, Hazrat Inayat Khan), there is an entire chapter on "Die Before Death". Since what is written there has already been described in sufficient detail both in my posts and in those of others here relevant to conscious sleep, it should suffice to quote this one passage from the book. (Incidentally, I studied under Pir Vilayat Khan for two years and was able to discuss such subjects with him personally.) "If one is able to retain the continuity of consciousness over the border from the physical world to the dream and vice versa, one will practice dying before death. This is taught by the Sufis as a preparation for death rather like the Bardo Thodol (the Tibetan Book of the Dead) and the Egyptian Book of the Dead and other similar works. In fact, this is precisely what meditation is." It is good to see Jeff write that "it is possible to maintain awareness during sleep". Hopefully, OP and the cadre who follow him and who "love" everything he writes here will similarly conclude that "the Myth of Conscious Awareness in Sleep" is most assuredly NOT a myth at all but is in fact a very common practice among those who truly seek to know themselves. It baffles me that one who does not fully understand the three basic states of man (deep sleep, dream, waking) through direct observation and experience can even venture to claim knowledge of that which lies beyond other than to quote others. While second-hand information is most definitely useful as it spurs one on to investigate the Truth, it is clearly no substitute for actually validating the information and thus knowing for one's self through direct experience. It seems best at this point to proceed deeper beyond the basics and into the practice itself with those here who apparently do understand the process and the practice. "Conscious sleep" is obviously a preliminary practice that facilitates knowing one's self through the emergence of both conscious and unconscious tendencies during the dream formation process so that those conditioned tendencies/urges can be weeded out and one can become firmly established in that which lies beyond thoughts and images. Any comments on this subject would be most welcome. Continuing with "The Message of Our Time" since I'm on that subject now, legitimate questions regarding the process of validation are raised as one would expect. "But what proof do I have that the phantasmagoria of dreams is as real as physical matter? Dreams are elusive and evanescent like cloud formations, whereas the house is still there when I wake up in the morning. Actually, you can return to that dream house night after night. No doubt the most convincing answer is to be found in astral travel, because one can check whether the astral traveler saw the furniture in the place you changed it to in order to test him (although one could account for that by telepathy). But the astral traveler has a very definite experience of displacing himself in space, including sometimes a bird's eye view of the landscape." Although I have had sporadic verifiable experiences in "remote viewing" (a term that is widely used in scientific circles and one which I personally prefer to astral travel), I fully acknowledge that I cannot do it consciously at will. I readily concede that the mental aspects of the Cosmic Mind have commanded more of my attention than the physical. It should come as no surprise to many here that I attend a meditation group with senior members of the Edgar Cayce organization in order to glean whatever I can through unpublished documents regarding Cayce's experiences with the Akashic Records (the Book of Life, or whatever other terms one wishes to associate with the Cosmic Mind). Cayce, as everyone probably knows, is one of the most documented psychics of our time despite some of his predictions of the future being somewhat off. (One learns not to predict the dynamically unfolding "future", as my spiritual mentor advised me many years ago.) I've noticed that, once one perfects the practice of conscious sleep to at least some degree, the mind becomes firmly established in complete and utter silence for longer and longer periods of time. One can feel one's self soaring above the self-limiting little separatist gestalt commonly called the ego and into the metaphorical sky of consciousness. At first, one tries to navigate and explore. However, eventually, one realizes that one should just abide in that stillness and peace with no expectations for "results" until what is important is spontaneously revealed. In a future post, I may give a verifiable example of my first "remote mental activity" experience which stirred a skeptical me into taking action that ultimately saved a young man's life. It is my understanding now that whatever is important to be revealed --- whether it requires action or not --- will be revealed in the proper moment. Can I do this consciously? No. Does it happen? Yes. When it happens and action is required, the validity of the "remote mental activity" (for lack of better words) becomes evident. It is my understanding that this faculty is inherent in all who have a pure heart in that particular moment. Conscious sleep is therefore the gateway to greater possibilities that can be validated. This is in complete accordance with the "Thy Will Be Done" Principle from the Christian Lord's Prayer, as one connects with the "higher power" and acts unerringly in the best interests of the Totality with no ulterior motives and no expectation of a return. (Incidentally, as a side note to the Kashmir Shaivism adherents here, it would appear that this is actually very consistent with at least one aspect of that sect. "The Shaiva Siddhanta goal of becoming an ontologically distinct Shiva (through Shiva's grace) was replaced by recognizing oneself as Shiva who, in Kashmir Shaivism's monism, is the entirety of the universe ." In the manner described, one is thus inspired to act in the best interests of the greater Self which, in Kashmir Shaivism's monism, is indeed the entirety of the universe whether we call it Shiva or otherwise.) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kashmir_Shaivism Any comments on this subject would be most welcome. P.S. I just ordered and received another book, "Meditation and the Bible" by Kabbalistic Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan. I have read two of his books and his depth is incredible. He points out that there are only a limited number of ways to approach the mind in meditation, and that all traditions utilize virtually the same gamut of methodologies albeit with different symbologies. I've also read the book "Kabbalah" written by his disciple, Perle Epstein, who is a great-great----great descendant of the legendary Baal Shem Tov. In that book, the writings and sayings of great Kabbalists are presented with obvious parallels to the eastern traditions that we discuss on this site. (As I've said many times in the past, the major traditions at their deepest levels all seem to point in the same direction.) Rabbi Kaplan's book is presented as a "radical interpretation of the Bible" which focuses to a large extent on previously unpublished writings related to the elevated states of consciousness exhibited by the prophets. (Jeremias is actually my favorite in this respect as his well-documented prophecies were clearly fulfilled at the time of the Destruction of the First Temple and the subsequent Babylonian Captivity). Rabbi Kaplan's son still lives in Brooklyn and, after reading this latest book, I may try to get an audience with him to learn more about what he knows that was left unsaid.

What is really funny about one of my personal favorite lucid dreamers. Is that he was always shy. And actually always saw great sexual freedom in the idea of lucid dreaming. For example, many people explore lucid dreaming, because they firmly believe, and not without sensible reason, that they will never get to experience the idea of kissing someone they love. Once upon a day, which was absolutely hilarious to me, and literally impossible... Is that I saw that shy guy, found somehow someway, through his ability to carve out a pathway through his physical reality dream, with the help of his ability to feel the excitement of lucid dreaming and play out his excitement in his physical reality, literally, pretending as best as he possibly could, that his phyical reality was a lucid dream, through many rituals of practicing daily his ability to physically dream, in order to find the safest sex possible, one where he could even explore his sexual desires fully. And thus, I see him literally in a porn movie. He was about as parmanently virgin as one can get. And he completely shifted, overnight, instantly. Power of dreaming awake, manifesting what you expect. You have practiced it so long, that it becomes easy to recognize the very thing you seek. The thing to note is that his joy led him to the path of least resistance towards his full manifested desire. A version that is actually most likely to happen. One that agrees with his actual virgin nature. Otherwise the experience wont actually happen physically in your dream either. Literally. The moment you dream it, it is possible. Otherwise, For example, the person turning into clay in your dreams. As some people dream. And then they desperately try to make the clay real again in their dreams. Cause they didnt follow the path of least resistance of joy, that could show them the most likely path of something actually happening, dream and reality! Dreams will never become as real as this dream. This physical time space reality is the furthest most extension of all conscious thoughts thought upon long enough in order to expand into vision, imagination, feeling, dream, reality, etc. Is there a reality above reality? Who knows.

Whatever you focus upon, becomes more real. The more you translate the vibration, the more you are able to continue to translate it more fully. Wether it is a thought form, a sight, a sense, a sound, etc. whatever it is. The same in reality and also in imagination. However, imagination is funny. Because there is a point, where your imagination actually begins to imagine itself. This is called the dream initiated state. But it can actually be initiated consciously and deliberately, if one learns to focus in such a way to allow it to happen. Some people can do it simply by lying down and closing their eyes. And just start dreaming at will, cause they've done it so often, it's effortless to them. Just like Wim Hoff can simply heat up his body at will. Now, imagine you look at your physical reality. Then you close your eyes, and you remember you vision of your reality, now you are practicing your ability to see your reality through your imagination. NOW IMPORTANT TO NOTICE! Your entire physical reality is a dream! If you can learn to consciously dream, you can learn to consciously dream about your here and now reality! You can actually, energetically explore this reality with your third eye ability of translating this physical environment so to speak. However, you wont be comfortable to shift parallel reality tracks, so no worry, you wont ever do that untill you feel comfortable doing it, in which case it will be easy and effortless. You can even explore probable realities of your here and now physical vibrational trajectory of consciousness. Even while remain on your same reality track. Because your physical life exists on a time space trajectory "timeline" so to speak, amongst endless other timelelines which exist very close to your timeline. For example, you can place your right arm up. The timeline where you chose to place your left arm up, existed side by side, parallel to yours. And those which exist close to you, which you actually have a direct path towards, can be explored, by initiating your imagination, through the power of excitement, passion and joy, that will fuel the focus necessary to succesfully initiate a joyous version of the here and now reality, imagined, to be almost identical to your here and now reality, except for one tiny little difference, that represents your joy. Now you could focus on that, it can become so vivid, that your imagination will begin to synchronise with your physical reality. For example, you experience your senses, sound, but you interpret them completely differently, due to the passionately focused imagination. However you don't notice this synchronisation, due to focus on imagined scenario. Untill ofcourse the dream is initiated, then you begin to notice the physical reality, sounds synchronising with that of your dream about your here and now physical reality. What happens now, you can literally, stand up, see your reality, a different, version, recover knowledge of the reality that exists in close proximity. Wake up, and, the path is gone... Because you visited it, not physically. But mentally. But if you did not lie down, and you imagined it, and you had faith, you could literally, carve a pathway to it, directly through your waking life. Dreams are good places to begin exploring your multidimensional freedom in spacetime continiuum. However, what people don't understand, is that all of existance exists here and now. The only reason you experience your entire universe the way it is, is actually due to the smallest most minute microscopic imaginable tiniest of the smallest slightest of the slightest difference of frequency, that allows you to experience all of existance in this way, as opposed to lets say, oh... The entire universe is a potatoe. So you're dealing with very high frequencies here, very extremely precise and well balanced. Infinitely precise even. Infact, you cannot experience a linear time space reality at all unless your consciousness shifts from moment to moment, and also translates moment to moment, all your reality, 5 billion times per second. That is how powerful you are. Because you are so powerful, that doing this is so SO EASY, SO EXTREMELY EASY, to you, that you don't even notice you're doing it. The awakening is always happens through understanding who you already truely are. Your own nature. It happens simply through remembering the obliviously obvious things about our reality and nature. Death is often said to be the 13th step. Imagine a hotel, where there is an elivator. The numbers go up. From 1... To 2... Up to 9... 10... 11... 12... 14... 15..., etc. So you ask people in the elivator, "where is floor number 13?" And they say "number what?" So you say "13!" And they say "WHAT?!" And you say "THIRTEEN!" And they say "you are making strange sounds man... Are you feeling alright?" The same goes for death. No one understands what it means. It is the thirtheenth step. Or the non-existant 13th floor on that hotel in the story. What it means, that when you die, all choice is gone. Nothing is possible anymore. And when nothing is possible anymore, all the rules are gone. All the rules of the game are gone... So now? ... Everything is possible. Infinite probability and possibility. That is why some people, believe it or not, love to watch videos of people dying. I was disgusted by this at first. And then I investigated. And turns out, they all view death as a huge freedom and relief. That that person no longer has any care in the world. And that seems like fun to them. But ofcourse, they don't go emmediatly jumping off buildings. Why? Because exciting as it may seem. That scary it also seems... To take the 13th step. That no one has taken... And ever returned... Why? Because you are the only one here. This entire youniverse, exists all around you, because you are focused into a small portion of your own consciousness, in order to view yourself from all the different ways you can. The complexity is endless and the rules of the game is agreed upon even beyond our dream spaces. And there are many many other games out there. Earth game is just one amongst infinite.

I don't ever recall reading Turiya to be a "permanent shift." My understanding is Turiya is from its own perspective - so it already exists inherently. It's just that we are not "aware" of it. Again this is the paradox of Turiya. It can be logically inferred through Vichara - and it is the source of light in the dream and waking state but it's also the source of the bliss in the deep dreamless state. So to go into Turiya also means to LOOSE self-consciousness just as in deep dreamless sleep - only in Turiya you are like in a dream state where the light as frequency is too INTENSE and so it blinds your dream ego. So being awake is a type of dreaming - physical 4D reality is a type of dream with the mind in a diffuse reflection of Turiya. Dreaming is also a type of "diffuse" light that is not as intense. then the more a person meditates - this relies on biophoton laser coherent light. So you "turn" the light around - which means you resonate a self-coherent frequency of light as a laser. Think of an LED light - these lights blind the eyes because the LED light is based on one frequency of light instead of a diffuse spectrum like incandescent light. So we can not "trap" light because science assumes an external parameter that measures the light. But in meditation there is no external parameter - instead of mind is light directly and the light is turned around. So for example we then literally store this light in our bodies as shen energy or biophoton energy - and science has measured how qigong healers will release biophoton energy. Then AFTER a qigong healing occurs, the healer has to recover with their internal biophoton light no longer being as coherent. This is now proven by science. Beverly Rubik has the latest publication on this - but a scientist in India has done some of the best research on these biophoton dynamics from meditation and healing. So with the eyes closed, when we visualize light - it's proven that the biophotons internally increase but also the "source" of these biophotons is from the Emptiness directly - the quantum vacuum or anti-matter (virtual photons). Qigong master Yan Xin calls this the "virtual information field" that does the healing. So if you take any object - it will have a quantum frequency. For example it's proven now the best way to explain our sense of smell is based on quantum frequency. So a molecule can have a different shape as a Phase - form - but the same frequency - it can be a LEFT handed molecule or Right handed chiral shape. This will change the smell! Like with orange smell and lemon smell. Or you can have two drastically different molecules but they have the same quantum frequency - so they smell the same. So what this quantum phase refers to - the chirality - is actually the "super momentum" - the phase is when the Light is entangled. This is proven in science now - it's called Weak Measurements. So it proves that there is this super momentum phase and that is what "guides" the electrons that go through the double slit experiment. That is the Ether now proven in science. So with these "weak" measurements - there is NO time elapsing. You "freeze" the light by having two photons are are entangled. So by having a FORM that you are visualizing externally - you can "freeze" the future and the past of that form as the light experiences it. But each photon while entangled do not experience time in themselves. So that is the "phase" of the light - it is the 5th dimension that "guides" the photons or electrons. So it is the position as phase but not of the Particle as a moving photon - but instead of the SPIN of the photon as it is entangled non-locally with its physical environment. So if we can "freeze" our minds at the speed of light - there is still this SUPER-luminal "spin" or super-momentum as it is call. Normally in classical physics we think of momentum as dependent on the movement of a particle but Louis de Broglie proved that in quantum physics the momentum is actually a STANDING WAVE based on the frequency as the momentum (at the speed of light). OK so that can occur for external objects - but as Ramana Maharshi emphasized - what if you are just turning the light around back to itself? Then you just have this zero/ infinite "rest frame" that does not exist in a material sense - it's just the 5th dimension directly as this Super-Momentum (or phase or spin). So in science this is called the "measurement problem" because science has to make an external measurement at the speed of light assuming some physical external parameter. But if we have no external parameter - then instead there is no "Bloch Universe" that is physical spacetime (no material medium) - instead there is just an infinite non-physical information-energy that is eternal LISTENING or logical inference, listening "to itself" and thereby generating light (and matter)....

Just because! Well this happened to me several times as a teenager: I can remember being in a lucid dream and being in the past but as well as being this person I was also watching from outside of them! So for clarity I was a person looking out of a window thinking and observing, in a dream, and at the same time was watching, in the dream, the person looking out of the window, I was experiencing two (perhaps three) states of consciousness, the person looking out of the window who was unaware of anything but his own mind then a disembodied consciousness watching from above who had the same thoughts as the person looking out of the window but at the same time I knew it was a dream so maybe that's a third state of consciousness! This only happened twice I think and was set in Victorian times, very strange. On another occasion when I was a bit screwed up I saw myself when awake several times as a separate entity. Yeah that was very disconcerting to say the least and was after I had been playing with lucid dreaming for a few months, successfully I may add. I generally warn people away from lucid dreaming as I believe it can make some people schizophrenic. Try lucid dreaming if you must but don't dwell on it. Important to note here that I think on the higher planes the conceptual element of mind doesn't come into play that is images as we know them are simply incompatible with out waking consciousness. This explains the strange imagery we often have in dreams as the lower minds try to dress these thoughts in a way we can comprehend. We are told though that we can directly experience these higher/different states of consciousness but obviously there's no easy way to convey the experience. And of course the experience of nirvana/bliss is beyond the mind as we are told it's a state of 'being which is non being'. Hopefully I haven't muddied the waters.

It is simply your fractal step down transformer, imaginary capacity to translate frequencies of all dimensions. I also often upon awakening, just continue lie in bed, and often I see, with my eyes closed, a different version of my bed. Darker light, but the pillow looks similar. Everytime I say... Wow this looks exactly like my bed! And when I open my eyes, it doesn't even come close.... My room is always brighter... Hehe. And the pillow is slightly different. The thing to remember is that the details are not important. Especially if they are bad dreams. But if they are good dreams, use them as symbols. You have to find the thing that feels good, and find a relationship, link, with your physical reality, by noticing something in your physical reality that feels the same and also has the same qualities as that symbolic representation of your dream. How do you know? The feeling is important, as that will identify the actual physical thing that is purely representative of that path of least resistance, in case the dream is of joy. For example, you can feel free flying in a dream. Don't go jump off a building... Instead, what in your life feels free like that? What feels similar about your physical life? For me, riding my bike in the open air, being completely by my self, free to go wherever I so choose. Any direction I may choose! For no other reason than my freedom. Thus here is my path of least resistance. Secondly, dream where all insects reverse and stop aging. Families meet. Joy. What in my life feels like that? Instead of going outside observing insects... Waiting all my life for my dream to come true of the "day that everything stopped aging..." Instead of being stupid like that.... What feels like the joy of discovering something has reversed age? And became perfect? And happy? Technical repairs. I love technical repairs. I love all things technical. But repairing something to perfect normal operating condition. Love that. And usually this is done together with my family, so good company too! It is basically a form of cleansing and resting at the end of day in good company of joy and appreciation and celebration. So whenever you imagine a dream of joy. You conjure an image of joy for the purpose of imagining something you want. Identify the good feeling. Then look, in the general sense, around your life, and consider ANYTHING, that might possibly feel like that. That is ALREADY FULLY AVAILABLE AND REAL IN YOUR LIFE RIGHT NOW. Your dreams cannot reproduce reality, because that is not the point. You identify the PATH OF LEAST RESISTANCE, as one entire thing! When you imagine, your image contains the entire road. The entire path. The journey. Timeless. Dreams are also fractals. They happen all at once, but your waking mind creates linearity in order to focus on this or that, dissect and look at things in relationship to one another. And contemplate them so. But usually the imagined scenario is purely representative, symbollically, of the physical scenario in your life, that feels always the same or very similar at least. Energy motionally, emotionally. For example, a kid says, I wanna be an astronaut. He may feel pride and accomplishment in that idea. So looks in his life, and remembers, the time he climbed that rope in gym class. And everyone looked at him in awe. And cheered and clapped. He felt very fortunate and proud and appreciative of himself. That climbing of the rope, is not the path towards being an astronaunt, it is literally the path of being an astronaut right now! In his real "physical" reality. The accomplishment at school. The good grades. The fitness. It's all about achievement. So that is his or her passion. And translates through the vision of being an astronaut. But the kid does not go to the internet, looks up rocket launch date. Goes to sight, and runs straight towards the rocket, falls in exhaustion halfway. And looks up crying at the rocket that left. Because those astronauts are in that moment being tested. They didn't try to make it in time. That was easy, just like the kid can make it easily in time for school. The test the astronauts are undertaking. It is not in that rocket, not for the kid. For the kid, the test is at school. Can you get the idea of aligning visions with your hearts ability for dead center navigation? Pinpoint accuracy 24/7? Often people think of wealth, they think of gold. And exploding stars. Don't go to the casino and look at exploding stars all day! What feels like joyous wealth and abbundance? Family? Looking up at the sky at night through a telescope? Going in nature at night? How does that connect to wealth? It will, if you care about how you feel, first, then money second. You will eventually get all that money, because it is part of that path. But it is also representative of the entire journey. So going for money, is like eating tye dry skin if the onion, and throwing the onion away. And then complaining that you can't find any onions, even tho you have been looking your entire life. Focused on onions. Why? Because reality is a fractal. Every reality contains the whole of all other realities. Just as the whole contains all the other realities. So find the feeling of the vision, and identify the feeling in your waking real reality.

I also get this kind of light show, and if I just lay there and watch it can turn into other beings, or landscapes. this is not uncommon. In lucid dreaming they call this state, W.I.L.D or Wake Induced Lucid Dreaming. One just watches the lights without trying to figure them out, or develop a belief of what they are, and simply watch. then the dream state starts while you are in-between awakening and sleep. at least that is my experience. don't over analyze it. what good does that do anyway? LOL

I am still trying to make sense and explore implications of a phenomenon I had ever since I had a profound ayahuasca experience. Whenever I wake up from a troubled dream, which means one from which, for one reason or another but usually due to being weirded out / scared, I try hard to wake up and eventually do, for a minute or so after that I see flickering light patterns when I close my eyes. They're not really complex, just some movement of bright dots in a distinct texture pattern, which made me call this phenomenon "holodeck matrix". It is always the same pattern, and the perception gradually fades the longer I lie awake. (It's quite intense light at first, but in the context of the whole phenomenon being kinda subtle.) I don't know whether the specific pattern has any relevance or familiarity (maybe related to the way that light-receptors are arranged on the retina or at least how the brain manages them?), and it is hard to describe, but I tried to draw a crude approximation/guess. (They are slightly more colorful, I think, with some elements of yellow and green, but last time I had this I remembered a red-dominance once I noticed it was occuring again.) I think there might also be a connection between the occurence of such dreams and how much energy is still active in my head before entering sleep. (I usually do some nei gong in bed.) I had this type of dream a couple times after my ayahuasca experience, in a more intense way, but even years later this still ocurs in a milder version if I don't ground myself thoroughly after the nei gong. (But I usually don't do that because I am not that worried about these effects. It is part of a process anyway, and results are so subtle that I decide to emphasize more on keeping the energy active as much as possible. Once one reaches a state where there is always activity, you cannot say you moved energy out of the head anyway, and one has to distinguish between energy being constantly active and it being stuck up there. I don't think I have an issue with the latter. I've had energy pulsing around a bit between third eye and crown ever since my Kunlun Nei Gung seminar, and it is active at various times of the day, usually during states of relaxation.)

Heyo heya heya heya, heyo heya heya heya. My enemy. Wants me dead. The end of my hatred. I have also wanted to die. The end of my hatred. It never works out, I am cursed, by my fear. I call it my secret. That I have chosen to hate you, because you failed to kill me. You failed for such a long time. So I fight evermore. You'll always have to proof that you are greater than me. And you will never succeed. Because you have already failed. You cannot repair what you have broken. So I become a new person. Forget you, because that is the most painful for both of us. And thus the dream lives on in a new pain evermore. Untill we both accept the pain we have caused unto eachother. Evermore, realise the reason for all of it. Thus no longer needing to search for it any longer.

I just like sleeping, because it allows us to rest. When I am tired. And I want to let go and sleep, it is because I am always wanting to be naturally good. I enjoy the ease and comfort in sleeping. And just letting everything be ok as it is, for the night as for the day. As there are some who also allow everything to be as it is good when they are awake. Like some or many animals. Who never sleep and they just allow everything to be ok as it is. And I also allow them all to be ok when I sleep. And many times in my dreams I meet people or I hear and see things that I've never seen before. And I wonder, how amazing, that I can experience new things, even when I am with my eyes closed. But mostly I enjoy the rest of sleeping. And the rest of and in sleeping. I often feel allot better when I rest and let go. And I am able to rest and let go. And fall into deep sleep. And when I wake up, I also enjoy the restfulness of being in that moment of completely allowing everything to be as it is and I just feel like nothing has to be done in that moment of enjoying my natural awakening, I don't even have to open my eyes. For here and now I am, and I allow everything to be exactly as it is. And I feel good, and often I see or hear things, even when my eyes are closed. And I allow that to be ok. Sometimes I think I am looking at my own bed when I lie awake with my eyes closed. Only to realise, my eyes are already closed. And I see and enjoy allot of different perspectives of my own same room that I am in in my waking dream aswell. And I allow that to be ok. It doesn't matter what I see or not see. So I allow myself to see whatever I see, when my eyes are closed or not closed. I enjoy these wakeful restful moments of experiencing restful and wakeful moments, because it is free of any need. It doesn't matter what happens, I don't feel like there needs to be happening anything. I just allow whatever is happening to be happening. And often what is happening in the dream, just happens because it hasn't been capable of happening in the waking state. And often in the waking state what is happening is because it hasn't been capable of happening in the dream state. They are both very good in their own way. They can always be allowed to be how they are as they are. No need to understand why or how or when or where. It is just what it is. And our perspective is also how or when or why. I can be enjoying my restful wakefulness and I can enjoy a greater comfort in being awake and enjoying my waking life and then I also enjoy my sleeping life aswell more. And the other way around aswell. I also enjoy my life more when I enjoy my sleeping more. And I appreciate my restful sleeping more aswell, and then I wake up more restful, and I feel restful when I then also have more energy and vitality, and then I feel even restful when I am running or just fully living my life and going about my waking life. Sometimes I wonder if good things will happen in my waking or daily life, because I have been experiencing good things happening in my dreaming life. And often what happens there are many similarities if you remember how they feel in your dreams, and then recognize how they feel in your waking life, you can see corrolations of what you dreamed and what's now happening in your waking daily life. And often when I think about something good happening, and it is happening, and I feel excited for what I now enjoy more in my life I also see it in my dreams more, and then when I wake up, it doesn't necessarily have to happen, unless I enjoy the dream then I also allow to happen. And I don't even need to remember the dream. Just enjoy whatever I enjoy in my waking life aswell. Cause I am therefor awake after all. There are many things I do enjoy and want in this life to experience. And they are always so close to who I am and where I am the people I know in my life. The people whom I love so much and inspire so much love from within me. I feel they are a special value for me. They also recognize that. And they also feel that for me. Sometimes people are in your life even they are not in your dreams or your waking life. They still inspire you. And you may wish them to come into your life. And it doesn't have to happen, but I do enjoy those kind of people. For what they inspire within me when I think of them. It is like a day dream that exists between the waking and sleeping life. One where you can choose whatever dream you want to dream in your waking and sleeping life. And therefor in your joy, you come closer to it evermore. And sometimes, just thinking of these things, is because you enjoy them, because they also enjoy you. It is part of your nature. We can enjoy things that seemingly don't exist. But they still can mean allot of value for you evermore. It is not about all the things and dreams. For when you are fully conscious, you decide always why you enjoy what you enjoy so much evermore. And thus, you look back in your life and you remember why you wanted this life. What inspired you to make the decisions you did, it has always been for a good reason. And consciously thinking of all those good reasons and remembering again what you love so much, brings so much clarity to who you really are and also want to be the everbecoming of evermore. Then you can simply allow yourself to enjoy whatever you enjoy thinking about and focusing on, and evermore allow yourself to dream what you enjoy to dream evermore, because you also allow yourself to live what you enjoy to live evermore. And so the dreams reflect that, and so the waking life reflects that aswell. And so your feels reflect that aswell. Because all that you have ever been, has only been because you are now who you now are. And what you enjoy, is part of all of that, and now that you can enjoy it, is also why it has always all been and will be evermore. So allowing that to be ok, that is ok unto itself.

Yeah, things always wanna get better by nature. That's ok. It's part of a good nature. It's ok to want to dream of good things. They can always happen. They are often in happening in the bigger scheme of things. You don't even have to know how or why, that's also part of the goodness. So I take things easy, and let the good happen. How it wants to happen. And I no longer fight it. I just trust it, because I know how it feels, I know how those good things happening feels. It feels good. And I am ok with that. So I no longer fight it, but I allow it to be good. And I enjoy it thus already, where it is. Even if I cannot see it, I enjoy it already wherever it is. And in doing so, I am already enjoying it. So it no longer matter when or how it will happen. Because I am no longer fighting it, so I don't need to predict it, because I already trust that it is good and it is happening now. Wherever it is. It is already good and it is already happening. And when I can see some of it, I enjoy it also aswell. And I don't insist that that is all that it is. I just allow it to be evermore. Cause it is going to happen as it is already happening as it will already always be happening. I don't care about how or when or how. I just care about the goodness that is already here and now. As that is also how and why I always enjoy it so much, because it is always already here and now, even if I can't see it. So what does it matter what I see or not. I allow whatever I see to be whatever it wants and I don't care so much, untill I do see the good things. Then I can enjoy it as I enjoyed it already when I could not see it. Cause it already is, always has been and always will be... So does it matter how and when and why? No. I just enjoy it how and when and why whenever however wherever whyever. Cause that's where the goodness already is. Here and now, however wherever whyever whenever. Where it has always been and always will be. So I allow myself to enjoy it where it already is. Cause I am also here and now. And all the good things, all my dreams and desires and wants, they're all here with me. And so I already know how it feels. And thus I can always enjoy it evermore where it already is. And always has been and always will be. So I don't try to go anywhere else, cause the goodness is already here and now where it already always has been and always will be. So I enjoy it where it already is. Because it is always already here always has been and always will be. So does it matter how it is or where it is? No, it also doesn't matter why it is. Because it simply is. Already as it always already always has been. And it has always been evermore becoming evermore. I don't have to rush it anymore because it has already always been good so it doesn't need to be anything but what it already is, at whatever speed it is. Does not need to change how it is. It is already good how it is and I already know how it feels. So I allow it to be the way it already is. As I already enjoy the way it is cause it is already good how it already is wherever it is and how or whyever or whenever it already is. It is easy to be good and feel good. Because the goodness has always been easily being the evermore becoming of all that it always already has been and will be evermore the ever becoming of it's own ever being. So I allow it to already be where it is. And I love it where it already is. And I don't have to do anything, except enjoy it where it already is. Because it has always been wherever it already is. And so I have to allow it to be that way, cause I like it for where it already is, as it is already good where it already is. So I enjoy it where it already is. And that is how good is and why it is always so good and when it is always so good and where it is always already so good. As I know it already how it is as I enjoy it so much how and why it already is so always good and so always enjoyable where it already is and why it already is. And I can always already feel it wherever it already is. And I am always here and now and I can always enjoy here and now where all is and whever ever already is. As all the good always already is where it always already has been and will be ever more in its ever becoming as all is here and now is forever. Feeling good is easy and being good as good is good is always already easy and has always already been as easy as it already is wherever it already is and so it doesn't need to be anywhere else because it is already good wherever it is. And it has always been good wherever it already is. As all is here and now is forever.

Without personal desire, there is no personal action. Even the desire to help unconditionally, due to the desire for unconditional love is a desire. Pure desire, is natural, and it is good, as is humans natural nature a good nature. You don't dream of a world where everyone is dying, and then wake up and say "Aaah, I'm so happy! " Because the original desire is for them to not need help, to be self sufficient and powerful. But, the reason, as I said, they need help, is not because they need help. But because there is a relationship that is blocked and not allowed, that has to be re-instated, through natural karmic entanglement, that brings the original power of the helper back to the powerful desire to be helped and the powerful desire to help.

Perhaps you misunderstood the topic. It is not my intention to cast aspersions on anyone's practice. I agreed with Steve that different practices can be of immense value to different seekers. I want to mention here that I own a copy of the book, 'Tibetan yoga of dream and sleep' and have great respect for the author and practiced certain things from this book in the past. The higher awareness in the sleep state (basically in all states) this book talks about is Turiya and Turiyatita in my view and not about bringing the consciousness into sleep. This particular topic is not about any tradition or practices. The idea of this thread is to investigate and discuss the waking, dream and deep sleep states that we all go through every day, and to show the conscious awareness in the waking state cannot be maintained in the sleep at any stage. As I mentioned in the OP, I read such claims in some places. The 4th state that transcends all 3 is entirely different and not similar to the waking state. I wanted to have a open discussion about this and for everyone to question such claims and decide for themselves from their own experiences. Not just accept such claims of retaining consciousness in sleep at face value and to illustrate such claims have no validity based on certain traditions or scriptures as claimed. There is quite a bit of misunderstanding and confusion surrounding this topic which can be clearly seen from some of the debates in this topic so far. It is best for everyone to decide for themselves when they experience certain thing. Unless and until it is part of our own direct experience (in this case conscious awareness in sleep consistently/permanently, not the fleeting lucid dream states or other temporary conscious awareness states in sleep like nirvikalpa samadhi/clear light states, etc. that can happen for few hours), it is better not to believe and be skeptical about such claims.

Ones experience,is not objective truth. It's just a subjective experience. For example, color, is an experience due to physical activations of the eye and brain. The hues do not exist. The universe ,rainbows, even bubbles are all gray scale. That's why many people dream in black and white. The brain is not applying the circuitry to imply color.

The book I mentioned was EDITED by Ken Wilbur. I read with interest your connection with Ken Wilbur but the book that I recommended merely is a composite of the writings of the Nobel-Prize winning quantum physicists and all Ken Wilbur did was to put them together into one book. The writings really have nothing to do with Ken Wilbur and are quite interesting, especially Schroedinger's comments. It's good to hear that you experienced Nirvikalpa Samadhi as that gives one a glimpse of the Reality. Of course, it is temporary and the next step is to move on towards Sahaja (seedless) Samadhi and that's one of the benefits of my "conscious sleep" practice. It identifies inner pressures from both the conscious and the subconscious that trigger dream formation. Once identified, they can be addressed either through yoga (discrimination) or bhoga (indulgence to get them out of the way). In any case, that's what I do as, one by one, I try to eliminate them so that virtually nothing drives me and I can surrender in the moment to that which lies beyond thoughts and guides one unerringly in the best interests of all (the Totality) with no expectation of a return. That works for me. I had not realized that " the poor people in India could not afford to be direct students of Vivekananda (and Ramakrishna) since it was too expensive." That is indeed disconcerting about the Ramakrishna order. I sometimes go to the Vedanta centers (Ramakrishna groups) in NYC and I have not experienced the expensive nature that you mentioned. However, I can't rule out that it was that way in the past. Your explorations and practices are indeed intriguing and illuminating. We all seem to take some interesting steps along the pathless path and even Buddha practiced extreme austerities before he discovered that the "Middle Way" was more appropriate. I've personally taken some interesting steps which were learning experiences in some ways but from which I backtracked to proceed in an entirely different direction. One learns through one's experiences. I have to ponder your point: "So for example in Daoist - Buddhist meditation - if a so-called spiritual guru can not sit in full lotus with ease - for as long as the person wants - then their body channels are not open and clearly they can not even achieve real Nirvikalpa Samadhi!! " In my formative years, when my spiritual mentor would say or do something that really commanded my attention (as she often did), I would sit in the lotus position absorbed in meditation without being aware of the elapsed time and only after I came out of the meditation did I realize that 8-9 hours had passed in that state. Now, however, I rarely do sitting meditations and was not really surprised when I saw a quote from Ramana Maharshi saying something to the effect that sitting in meditation at prescribed times for specific times is only for the merest of spiritual novices (by his standards, I assume. LOL) While Ramana may indeed talk about visualizing the light on the right side of the heart, that practice never resonated with me as my chakra meditations guided me further up to the ajna and then to the sahasrara. When Ramana Maharshi spoke to a Jewish group, he stressed the importance of "Be still and know that I am God" (Psalm 46:10). In his "Talks", he defined "Be Still" as the I AM with no other thoughts. (Of course, this is an intermediate step as he added that "that which is (eventually) no longer even says I AM.) That resonated more for more than the heart visualization. However, I readily concede that "different strokes for different folks" is applicable even to spiritual aspirants. LOL I agree with you when you say "all we can do is continual purification and harmonization of the body-mind-spirit-Emptiness (formless awareness)." The points on the guna, however, seem to have varying levels from the gross to the subtle and hence require more thought. Nisargadatta Maharaj indicated that the gunas on the subtlest levels as one spirals up towards self-realization are (1) inspiration (sattva) of varying degrees of purity, of course; (2) activity (rajas) as one acts on the inspiration; and (3) consolidation (tamas) as one becomes firmly established in the realization and is ready for the next one in the cycle. That resonated with me relative to the gunas. I am familiar with Karl Pribram and the holographic model but I have never heard of Eddie Oshins. I will have to check him out before commenting on that section of your post. I must think more about your comments on healing as it is a well-known fact that people with "multiple personality disorders" (now called a dissociative disorder) can have a serious dis-ease like diabetes with one personality but it disappears immediately with the emergence of another personality only to reappear once again with the re-emergence of the dis-eased personality. Having had a near death experience years ago when I emerged SYMPTOM-FREE from a three day "irreversible coma" (doctors predicted extensive brain damage and organ damage if I survived), I have studied the process of healing and the mind-body connection. As a matter of fact, I recently received an e-mail from abroad from a fellow with whom I had worked meditatively. In it , he told me that his degenerative incurable neurological disease is actually reversing itself and that a television documentary is being planned regarding his positive outlook and remarkable results. Healing is indeed an absorbing phenomenon and one that I have studied carefully without drawing attention to myself. My spiritual mentor would similarly recommend a practice and thus facilitate the dis-eased one becoming a light unto him/her self and a healer for him/her self. I once asked a renowned healer in India how much of the healing was due to him and how much to the dis-eased person. After staring at me for an uncomfortably long time, he finally said that 70% of the healing was due to the patient himself and that the 30% which he contributed as a "healer" was convincing the patient that healing was indeed possible. The specific methodology was not particularly important as long as the receiver believed that it would work. Hence, he used many different modalities depending on the belief system of the patient. I am similarly inclined though I realize that some illnesses serve a purpose and must run their course. This leads us to a deeper discussion on the nature of life and death but that is a discussion for another time. As you duly noted, "Silence is (indeed) golden". We are in total agreement on that point and it needs no further discussion. Your concluding statement is absolutely right on target: "..as Master Nan, Huai-chin states - most people in the modern world develop "heroic over-exuberance" as the spiritual powers manifest - and so then use those spiritual powers and then "fall back into worldliness." That is why I have lost all interest in powers after realizing that virtually anything is possible. The great masters point out the pitfalls associated with the intense urge to acquire powers, and thus I personally have avoided interest in any acquisition of powers. As Ramana Maharshi has indicated, when one is firmly established in that sublime state, one can call upon whatever powers are needed to address the situation at hand in the best interests of all with no expectation of a return. That is how I see things now. Thank you very much for your very informative and illuminating post. I read it with great interest and will probably read it again ... and again. In addition, I will check out Eddie Ochins. Thank you again for sharing all this. I really appreciate it.