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Hi friends! Just wanted to introduce myself. My name is Chris although my user is AngolMoa... because who doesn’t like a cool alias lol. I’m really not a fan of talking about myself but I’m a 34 yr old male from Canada. I, like I’m sure all of you, have a deep love for meditation and martial arts. I’ve been doing both since the age of 11ish but my consistency can definitely be called into question hah. I started with Judo, jumped into Taolu (wushu), took up some kali, and then a bunch of film-fu. Ultimately ended up as a stuntman for film and tv. On the meditative side of things I’d mostly been directionless and just intuitively following some form of practice. I found a community of people sharing meditation information around a dude named Wan a long time ago which I found super helpful to me at the time. Since then I was another guy on the search to find JC to be able to fulfill a lifelong dream of setting newspapers on fire lol. That led me to Jim and being accepted as one of his students. I don’t know much about the culture here but I do know that topic gets pretty political so that’s where I’ll leave that. Ultimately it helped me practice meditation regularly which was a big win. Mmmm I’m pretty much an open book if you couldn’t already tell and I try and not take myself too seriously. Any hoodles, I’ve crept these forums from time to time over the last decade so it’s nice to actually be here and meet everyone! Chris or AngolMoa 8)

No, I can't agree with this. To my mind both Stosh's and Dustybeijing's dreams are of significant symbolic significance. I concur with Jung's advice that "One would do well to treat every [impressive] dream as though it were a totally unknown object. Look at it from all sides, take it in your hand, carry it about with you, let your imagination play round it, and talk about it with other people." I'm no expert on dream interpretation but water especially the ocean is a common symbol for the unconscious. In Stosh's dream we have people fishing in shallow water in a city environment......In fact every aspect of his dream as recounted is rich in symbolic significance.

Here's some quotes from the article- ".. Xīn Chŏu 辛丑 – Year of the Yīn Metal Ox Welcome back to Xīn Chŏu, 辛丑, Year of the Yīn Metal Ox, which begins officially on Friday, February 12, 2021! After the events of 2020/Metal Rat Year, the task of prediction in the coming year seems daunting to say the least. But of course, as Liu Ming always said, Astrology is not fortunetelling; we’re in the business of symbols here! And the symbols have been spot-on! With 20/20 hindsight, the Year of the Yáng Metal Rat perfectly expressed the essence of its Chinese Astrological Symbolism, and before you read on, I suggest you re-read my blog from last year and reflect on your experience of the Metal Rat. I think you will find it most revealing. In short, last Year was all about the bigness of small/hidden/unacknowledged things going to extremes. The Heavenly Stem combination called Tōng Tiān Fú, 同天符, generated the atmosphere of excessive Yáng Metal Qì in the form of the Rat, which together created a razor-sharp dismantling force of titanic proportions. Unfortunately, the image of the Rat as a harbinger of disease came to pass, and the Metal Rat’s association with Confucian social harmony, justice, and order inversely played out on a global scale. Here in the USA, the pandemic, the protests, the election, and so on, all initiated massive social change so profound that the consequences will take decades to unfold let alone understand. I will emphasize that last year was a time to initiate change, but it was not a year to make change, and this is an important distinction. Here, we can understand all these events as nothing other than the natural unfolding of the cycles of time. Many would like to propose the narrative that our global consciousness is evolving toward a higher vibration, but the spaciousness/openness of the Chinese View denies this with any certainty, for evolution is only temporary in cyclical time. With open space/emptiness at the center of everything, the auspice of all movement is unfixed and without reference points to give us certainty. We are left only with our perception, and we are driven by the mind and its concepts/conditioning. So, how do we proceed after such a year? The same way we always do, lol. No matter the situation, the practice of Path Astrology remains the same – we study the symbols of the Calendar; we study our own Character and Karma/Fate, and we engage in natural flow of our experience as it unfolds from moment to moment, reflecting on this multifaceted interconnected web of relationships that have no weaver. When combined with a stable meditation practice and good spiritual hygiene, this engagement catalyzes a process of insight into Nature, Dào 道, and Self-Nature, Dé 德, that can free us from the misperceptions of an abiding self and world. In such complex times, astrology becomes most valuable when we stop trying to predict and control what will happen and get back to the essence of symbols as a gateway into Nature. I thought it fitting last year to begin my exposition of the Metal Rat with a discussion on Confucian teachings and social harmony, and although the Metal Ox in many ways continues and strengthens those themes, the destructive/dismantling force of last year prompted me to open this Year’s discussion with a return to the fundamental View Teachings on embracing the chaos and paradox at the heart of all experience. Wisdom would suggest that we embrace chaos and uncertainty rather than spin a positive outlook to make ourselves feel better. Predict as you would like, as I will offer my take, but I think the previous Year surprised all of us. The Ox symbol, though, appears surprisingly stable and boring by comparison. But the last thing I want to inspire is hope, lol. I would rather inspire wisdom. And wisdom has no preferences, for it knows that everything is 自然 “self-resolving.” Everything from here on out is a confident “maybe.” As I mentioned last year, Metal Rat is the first of the 4th 12-Animal sequence, so it was a renewal, a jumping off point, a catalyst for change somewhere in the middle of the 60-year cycle. The Yáng Metal Rat was a new beginning, and although I said it would be a small one, it felt pretty damn big. The Rat is an accountant that moves forward by evaluating the past , and we got quite a report. The fruition of this change has not yet arrived, evidenced by the ongoing uncertainty, and in the sequence, it does not get a push forward until Water Tiger Year, which in a Fire Monkey Country (1776) is set to be explosive (60-60 diametric opposites). However, the first step of the Rat is always very important. The Metal Rat was retrospective, an evaluation of the last 12-year cycle, and so is the Ox. The Rat looked backward, analyzed, and took things apart to be rebuilt more efficiently. We are now looking at the framework of our society lying in pieces on the ground. The nuts and bolts of American culture have been laid bare, and we are all left with the question – what now? The Ox answers – to build anything enduring, we must first re-establish the foundation, and to do that, we must acknowledge our lack of control. We do not control Nature, but we can learn to work with it; such was the experiment of Chinese agricultural society, and such is our task now. If there is a positive outlook to take on the current situation, it is that we can re-build, re-shape, and re-establish our world. But will we? Maybe. No guarantees. To fully understand the foundation available in the Metal Ox Year, we must look to its symbolism, Qì dynamics, manifestation, and applications. 象 – Symbolism In many ways, the Ox is a symbol of China, for if China is anything, it is perseverant, and its traditions are enduring. Dynastic China was the longest continual civilization of the modern era. China and the Ox represent the virtue of the heroic preserver, the continuity, stability, and convention of Tradition. In the face of Chaos, it represents a return to the wisdom of the Ancestors, who survived countless generations. In the scheme of the 10 Heavenly Stems, this continuity of tradition is represented by the Ox and its Native Element Yīn Earth. The Chinese character for Earth, 土, tŭ, contains two horizontal lines, representing a surface and a deep sense of stability. There is no Earth season in Chinese Astrology, but rather Earth represents the continuity or ground beneath the changing seasons. And while Earth suggests solidity, the Chinese Earth element is also like Space, the indestructible openness in which all things happen. The symbol of the Ox is related to the Yīn (rather than Yáng) aspect of Earth and expresses the malleability or spacious quality of Nature represented by the strength of the plow animal, shaping the Earth beneath us. Medieval China was the old world’s greatest agricultural society, and the Ox was the main event which made this possible, breaking away from tens of thousands of years of nomadic culture. In the process of become agrarian, the Chinese attempted to domesticate the Mongolian Horse, but after hundreds of years, the wild nature of the Horse could not be made to plow. After the unifying of tribes, the Ox Clans brought the Ox up from the swampy regions of southern China, and as soon as they attached reigns to it, they were amazed to find the Ox walked in straight lines, plowing even furrows with no goading. Farmers could let go of the reigns, and the Ox would plow forward, turn around, and come back on its own, making more even/straight furrows. Because of the Ox, then, China’s agricultural productivity and population increased exponentially, and in a few centuries, China became the most successful and wealthy society on earth. The Ox was always then associated with the rewards of consistent hard work and the Confucian value of perseverance in what is right. It came to represent a new contract with Nature to shape the Earth and create a new human realm, free of the hardships and uncertainty of nomadic existence. The Ox is a gentle giant, embodying a natural/Yīn strength achieved through gentleness rather than aggression. In Asia, it is not uncommon to see children running fearless side by side with these enormous animals. Oxen are strong, made of confidence, but they are not aggressive, and this is a valuable symbol for interpreting Ox Qì. The Ox represents “the way things are done,” exemplified in farming, craft, religion, martial arts – systems of knowledge and custom passed on and preserved through the repetition of skill and experience. To preserve these systems, tradition must maintain an integrity that is unchanged, lest they be altered and lose their strength, becoming something altogether different. Animals like the Tiger, Monkey, and Goat represent innovation and revolution, but the Ox represents the integrity of conventions and customs that are unchanged by time. In Classical Chinese Medicine, the Ox is associated with the Liver and likened to a General. It is associated with hard work ethics, physical/mental endurance, and with the strategizing and responsible decision making associated with the military. As such, it is a stern, disciplined, and rather serious symbol, representing the stable foundation that cultures need to maintain integrity. However serious, like the animal, this strength is peaceful and gentle in nature, and in Chinese Spirituality/Religion, the Ox is often associated with Guān Yīn, the goddess of compassion and wisdom. Lăozi is depicted riding an Ox, representing the natural wisdom of Wúwéi. In Chán Buddhism, as depicted in the 10 Ox-Herding Pictures, the taming of the wild Ox is an ancient simile for the discipline of meditation practice that leads to humility and service. Likewise, in India, the Cow is revered and worshiped as a symbol of abundance, nourishment, non-violence/harm. This Year represents a natural return to convention and stability; we fall back to whatever it is that supports our continuous presence here. To move forward, we must look back and remember…but remember what? For now, I pose this as an open-ended question, for many of the values and conventions of our culture are being challenged. So where is the thread? What stays valuable regardless of circumstances? What is proven effective? How can conventions change and still maintain their positive integrity? 氣 – Qì Dynamic To understand Metal Ox Qì, we must look to the Tōng Shū or Chinese Calendar. The Ox rules the 12th Moon, the dead of Winter (roughly January) and the hour 1-3 am. Ox exemplifies the still, silent, calm, and slow power of Winter. In the cycle of the day, Ox represents the middle of the night, the time of deep sleep, rest, and rejuvenation. So, what is it like to have this Qì dominate the entire year? Rat Year was a kind of retrospective dream (11pm-1am), but Ox is dreamless sleep. Everyone knows they should be asleep at 1-3 am. Qì wise, this is the time of day when we are most able to get deep sleep. Ox hour draws us deep into the dark silence of “don’t know,” where the unconscious automated functions of the body are most efficient. During Ox hour, you should be like a catfish, hidden in the murky depths of your unconscious. The Native Element of the Ox is Yīn Earth, which is described as sedated, solid, nourishing, grounded, sleepy, calm, and stable. Ox is the wisdom of orthodoxy and establishment, of thoughtlessness, steadfastness, and automation. Yīn Earth represents alliances, wealth, leadership, mothering, and balance. It is the center, Yīn and Yáng unified, associated with borders and boundaries defined by the empty space at the hub. The Native Element of the Ox is Yīn Earth, but the Heavenly Stem for this Year is Yīn Metal. Since Earth is the mother of Metal, the elemental balance of this Year is supportive and generative, which means the positive attributes of the Ox are more available, and we are less likely to struggle against them. They are empowered and strengthened for better or worse. Since Earth generates Metal, the direction is of the inward moving outward while the outward moves inward (which is the opposite of last year). The Metal Ox is less outspoken, but more forward moving, and opinionated than the other Ox. It represents a hardening of the Ox Characteristics, like ore smelted to gold. Metal, then, adds refinement, discretion, and fastidiousness to the Ox image. The Metal Ox is therefore more withdrawn, confident, and self-reflective than other Oxen. The Metal Ox is both outspoken and opinionated but has great thoughtfulness, maturity, and restraint (Obama, for example is a Metal Ox), contrasted with an image like the Fire Ox, who struggles with being too brash, blunt, and belligerent (comedian George Carlin is a great example of a Fire Ox). Yīn Metal is associated with the downwardness of falling leaves and the dryness/decay of Autumn, and its representative emotion is grief/sadness/loss. The burden of grief is heavy this year, and the great loss we have all endured will continue to bereave us all. We have lost lives, relationships, institutions, businesses, communities, personal freedoms, and so on; our culture has changed irrevocably. This is no small event. We are deeply encouraged to continue to contemplate the death and mortality initiated by the Metal Rat. In the Wŭ Yùn Liù Qì, the Elemental configuration of this Year is called Tōng Suì Huì, 同歲會, or “Total Annual Agreement.” This means the Heavenly Stem of the Year aligns with the unfolding phases of Qì throughout the seasons, creating a stable alignment of Qì that is milder and more temperate than the Tōng Tiān Fú from last Year, which generated chaotic extremes. Beneath the atmosphere of Yīn Metal, this is a Year of Tàiyīn Damp Earth, which governs the first half of the year, with deficient Taìyáng Cold Water governing the second half. Since Earth controls Water, the weakness of Water will create an overall increase in Cold/Dampness. The whole year has an atmosphere of heavy wet snow, and the dynamic is slow and sleepy with an element of drowning. For all you Chinese Medical folk, this may lead to an increase in symptoms like diarrhea, stomach aches, low appetite, fullness of the abdomen/chest, chest pain, heaviness of the body, lower back and leg pain, stiffness in the knees and hips, cold in the lower body/feet, swelling and edema in the lower body, swelling in the jaw, and difficulty with urination. Kidney and Heart disease may increase along with sexual dysfunction, and any weakness in the Lower/Middle burner will be bogged down by damp earth and poor water circulation/metabolism. The Qì dynamic of this year is overall very different from the last, and we should keep our eyes open to both the positive and negative potentials given the current situation.. " The article goes on. A worthwhile read. I found my of it hopeful and look forward to Yin animal's influence. It's a minor thing but when the author writes 'Everyone knows they should be asleep at 1-3 am. Qì wise, this is the time of day when we are most able to get deep sleep', I find they're correct. Tracking sleep with the Oura ring, shows consistently, my longest sequence of Deep Sleep happens between 1 and 3. Deep Sleep being the most body healing part. <<I was reading his article (http://www.tigersplayastrology.com/tigers-play/category/all 2nd from top)from last year on the Yang Rat. His outlook included warning about flu due to the Pigs damp nature. The paradoxes between the Pigs caring maternity and the Boar's potentially destructive ferocity. A good read. >>

I haven't picked up any dreams from the mainstream dream dispenser ever since the last one went bust. (That was my American dream, which was something else to someone who was not born American -- it didn't mean a house in the suburbs, a car, and snubbing the Joneses. It was a dream of freedom. I thought America was about that. But what I got instead was a house in the suburbs, a car, and the Joneses who would snub you if you don't wash it as often as they wash theirs. And will inspect your lawn for dandelions, and snub you if you have any.) If your ideal of happiness is to sit back and take things less seriously, teach your kids that. Whatever it is, if it is real, it's worth it. If, however, you think it's about happiness and then you sit back and take things less seriously and are miserable, it might mean you didn't contemplate your ideal thoroughly enough. I thought mine was freedom, but what I did toward getting that had a war on dandelions as the practical outcome, and this has little to do with freedom, on closer inspection. So now I have a different dream. But one reason I made many mistakes was that no one ever taught me anything about real dreams who had any experience living them. I was ignant. Ignant.

Do we not die every day? Some would say every moment. We go into sleep. The body leaves the physical plane, transitioning into the world of dreams. Then goes back and forth between dream world and deep sleep. In deep sleep one does not seem to exist. Then we come back to our physical body after alternating between the dream world and deep sleep. They talk about a 4th state, where in one is aware of all the other 3 states. I have no clue what this is. Except, sometimes during the dream state, I feel I know that I am dreaming. When I die from one state and enter the other, I simply die and do not exist on that state. Then I am born into the next alternating state. Then I die on that state. This cycle seems to repeat in what is perceived as every single day to me. One day we leave this perceived body and its states and perhaps enter into another state, generally termed as THE death. This all seem like similar transitions to me. We can argue that during sleep the rest of the world sees the person sleeping, his heart is beating, he is breathing etc. These are all immaterial. To the person sleeping, during sleep, his body or the people observing do not exist. Period.

Dear brother, from a loving brother sharing this experience Look at what you teach in the words you state? 'destroy Human Ego Self', 'do not care about anymore', 'seeking emptiness in order to reach God-Self' ... I would rather cultivate human ego self into a caring being who attains fullness with God (and with Self) dancing and playing while making the dream real here and now... The illusion of awakening be just another dream state and we be here and now for a reason and a purpose which be to love and care for it all. To dream divine dreams, one has to To dream divine dreams... and one can do that while totally recognizing and educating our human ego to truly love... as the divine love. The real illusion is that one can reach God-Self without God's help. Yes we are descendent from God and can call out to God though it is up to God and His grace to help us reach Him or come to where we be. The only lesson which needs to be learned for each and all be to love! We can do that in a dream, while awake, within a story we tell, within a thought, feeling, experience. With Love all the other lessons are just subsets of this lesson. With Love compassion and forgiveness come naturally. Being awake or asleep being a child, a parent, at work, at home, at play, at the mountain top, in the city, rich, poor, wise or a fool become opportunities which one and others can caringly direct towards cultivating love... I do understand that some cultivate other possibilities and play 'useless' games in the universal scheme of things. We in the now play games of creation ... for we create stuff with our thoughts, words, actions, feeling, dreams and 'illusiones'. Some humans like to play to be gods rather than just being what and who they are... Some believe the human ego self will be destroyed in the end for every human in the world sooner or later and then some believe that the human ego self will survive the end of ends thanks to divine intervention and live forevermore as anew eternal beginning begins. Evidently the human ego self pointed to here will be the full realization that the divine intended for the human ego self ... all loving humble caring merciful wise awake grateful playful happy... and other divine attributes... of Saints. Be it a dream be it for real always choose the better way to be... Love cultivate care be with God and others in enriching interchanges! your brother

Thank you @enuffing for the link. Moeller's excellent philosophical insights shaped my initial understanding of the worldview that is sometimes referred to as classical Daoism. It's a worldview that very much resonates with me. I have read all his books on Daoism and also his two books on Luhmann's systems theory. I highly recommend them all. The other video Moeller has posted on his YouTube channel gives his insights into the Butterfly Dream: Not long after I joined Dao Bums I started a topic on this based on Moeller's interpretation:

Its difficult. In observing the voices, I see how a lot of it works: I have trained myself to imagine a personality with a history found in books that speaks to me in response to words I think, according to the theme or story that has developed over time. This doesnt mean that something is actually happening to me that has some other worldly context, but really, it seems ridiculous that any sentient thing would bother with a lot of what I have imagined to be happening to me. Im probably being used as entertainment, is what I figure. Aside from that, there have been very real things too- like the drilling in my brain- that was no hallucination. Either I exist elsewhere, or there is a device in me that they come and tinker with. Also, I predicted a lot of things that came to pass, and this is difficult to understand and live with. Thankfully the medicine I am on has been working, Ive learned to not take the voices seriously- though when new thoughts come about, or a strange dream- I cant help but ponder it, though with every passing day I am learning to ignore. This takes a lot of effort and rest on my part.

Wanted to know if people were interested in trying a group project? As aspect of dream work, notably meeting each other in dreams. Throughout the centuries this has been done purposely and/or accidentally. It has a long history in shamanic and religious lore. Rawn Clark a hermetic teacher talked about having a group that would meet in the astral plane on certain nights, later calling each other to confirm details on what they saw/remembered. Some early websites specifically dealt with such astral meetups, with mixed results. I have little skill in dreamwork, but others here do. I suggest we use a tool, Lilian Eden's guided meditation called Meet Me in The Dream; Lucid Exploration with Friend. It an explanation and hypnotic script, though an hour in length the audio instructions are quite short. It's mostly biaural relaxing sounds with no 'wake up'. Its on youtube and I'll try to include download of it here albeit in a low bit rate. You can grab it on higher bit rate off youtube. Let me know what you think. I suggest people listen to it, then we experiment. Having some nights where we start it together. Perhaps hooking up on Live Chat with a ready set go. Giving it a few tries. I've found early morning to be the best time to practice. Waking up at 4 or 5 am, focusing on intent, then listening and allowing it to send me back to sleep. Whatever protocol, afterwards people record there dreams as well as talking about there general experience. See if we have any 'hits', clear of fuzzy meet ups. I note that some dream groups pick a location. Such as the Pyramids, Stonehenge, Field of Dreams baseball, in a field looking up at the full moon (during full moon, Jan 12th the Wolf moon). If people are interested and or have suggestions we can start next in January. **note I shrank it to 16kps but it was still 7.5 MB. Below is the youtube. There are browser addons that allow making it an mp3 or aac or you can just listen to it on the computer. **keeping this in General area for now. Might move it later to Esoteric or somewhere else later, where it won't be moving up and down so much.

Update: We have 3 people participating and its going well. One early interesting hit of mutual coldness and on Wednesday people feeling they are in the same prescribed room. Nothing too incredible or fully lucid, but, it is just the beginning. And ofcourse it happened to other guys, because I have little talent for this. We're working twice a week, meeting up on live chat at a prescribe time, getting a theme and location then listening to the hypnotic audio mentioned above. The work is tricky, dreams are slippery and fade fast. Its only in the last 15 years the science has accepted that lucid dreaming is possible. Thanks in large part to Stephen LaBerge who set up one of the earliest science based dream labs in Stanford and got graduates students as test oneirauts. Yet indigenous cultures from Tibet to South America have millennia of experience in dream work. Every culture has stories. If their experiences are reproducible then perhaps what is considered legendary or 'fuzzy' psychic skills; connecting in dreams, is possible, and for some, with practice, luck, and grace a learnable skill. One that once accepted, can become wide spread, our generation's 4 minute mile. Rawn Clark, a hermetic teacher mentioned in his blog (no longer up) that he met up with other hermetic 'magicians' in the astral and would talk on the phone afterwards to compare notes. With the internet, there are groups doing this. We have our trio. I'd suggest other people interested do something similar, also in a small group. Plan a brief meetings 2 or 3 times a week to discuss theme and location (real or archetypal) and confer on the results later. Keep it short and simple; be patient, experiment, improve dream recall, and see what happens.

Fascinating discussion (this is only an excerpt) -- In the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali, written 2500 years ago (conservatively speaking), one of the aphorisms states -- "knowledge is from direct experience, the testimony of a reliable witness, or intuition". In all cases, Consciousness is the primary mode of knowing. Even in the case of the anesthesia -- the assumption Sam is making is that the "awareness" is only localized to a body-mind. Actually, for those who have advanced yogic capabilities, even these so-called "unconscious" experiences are simply awareness without any objects. This is an everyday experience of deep sleep. In order to 'experience' deep sleep, a certain degree of disentanglement with the mind needs to occur (in the waking and dream states) -- which is called "abiding in awareness". Then deep sleep is simply and directly known as "deep sleep" while it is occurring. Similarly with anesthesia. Such people can are perfectly lucid across all three states of waking, dreaming, and deep sleep.

I discern between two types of dreams -- the "I want" dreams and the "I command" dreams. "I want" dreams are dreamed up by my ordinary waking mind. They originate in my heart shen. "I command" dreams are dreamed by my dream-body, my greater shen and my ling, originate in my yin zhi and are acted upon by my dream-body's yang zhi. The wants of my ordinary mind are largely ignored by the dream-body. It has its own dreams. Some of them shock me when they come true, but I can never disown them even though I know that "consciously" I didn't dream of that. I seldom dare relegate an "I want" dream to my "I command" machinery, because I don't have full control of that and full understanding of its goals and methods. Once I threw a fishing line into the ocean fishing for some sea bass and a killer whale took the bait instead. I still don't know what to do with it. Can't pull it out, can't let it go. So who's caught whom is the question. When they say "be careful what you wish for," pay attention.

Same with me on the action movie. The last one I had a dream where I was fighting some entities, don't know if it's some osrt of ghost or what not. They have some sort of darkness and so I called on the light to fight them. They gang up on me and I use the swirling light to get them off. And then I combine the light with my martial arts move. My friends were fighting in the dream with me too. Must be my over active imagination. The first night or maybe a few niht after started learning GOT 1 I dream of doing the GOT 1 move number 2 while moving something like japanese sliding door, only made of mostly white light. All the energy in the dream in thise several dream are white light, with maybe some hint of other color, I'm not sure.

Indeed. But who said Brahman needs to "know it all"? In a dream, do you know it all, or only know from the perspective of the "individual" role that you have assumed therein?

My main motivation for posting Moeller’s interpretation of ‘The Dream of the Butterfly’ was to provide a reference resource for those interested. To my mind, such detailed commentary by a learned researcher schooled in both Eastern and Western thought deserves the widest possible audience. Whilst I welcome comments – and fully appreciate that there are different perspectives on the meaning of the allegory – I don't expect anyone to find flaws with his arguments as presented. His interpretation is the product of much research utilising a network of Chinese and Western academics, and has been peer reviewed by some of the best minds in the field of comparative philosophy. It was first published as an article in the journal Philosophy East and West in 1999 and later in his book Daoism Explained in 2004. The abstract below gives a good outline of his purpose. Zhuangzi's "dream of the butterfly": A Daoist interpretation Hans-Georg Moeller Philosophy East and West 49 (4):439-450 (1999) Abstract: Guo Xiang's (252-312) reading of the famous "Butterfly Dream" passage from the Zhuangzi differs significantly from modern readings, particularly those that follow the Giles translation. Guo Xiang's view is based on the assumption that the character of Zhuang Zhou has no recollection of his dream after awakening and therefore does not entertain doubts about what or who he really is. This leads to a specific understanding of the allegorical and philosophical meaning of the text that stands in contradistinction to most modern interpretations.

Dreaming is not an action which is confined to falling asleep. We dream 24 hours a day. A part of our consciousness which is not fully engaged in the physical plane dealing with day to day problems is focused on the subtle aspects of the body. Many times a day we shift conscious focus from physical reality to subtle reality. Our awareness at that moment may be focused on a friend that is at the other side of the planet. Sometimes if our focusing is intense enough something unexpected may happen: the phone rings! It is our friend calling from the other side of the planet to tell us they were thinking of us just at that moment. Has this happened to you? Ordinarily we call these happenings `coincidence’. A word for labeling the unexplainable. The full spectrum of the life force is not something unexplainable. The whole spectrum is happening simultaneously, 24 - 7 One of the insights which opens as one begins to consciously shift mental focus from the physical to the subtle is that the life force is not limited by physical reality. The physical is just one aspect of the energy spectrum. There is the rest of the spectrum operating simultaneously beyond the physical. Energy is not limited by space or time. Time and space have no influence whatsoever in the subtle energy dimensions. Time and space are not a limiting factor and play no role whatsoever in phenomena. It is extremely hard for physical beings to imagine the state beyond time and space, specially if we have no direct experiences of subtle energy in our bodies or consciousness.

It is not that consciousness is equated to color-blindedness, it is the notion that "if I don't experience, it doesn't exist." So I think what Sam is critiquing here is not the primacy of consciousness for a subject, but the absence of an external, physical world (however you wish to define it--- as material, as consciousness, etc.). Do you deny the external world? I thought Vedanta gave the external, physical world provisional status. The states you set forth as just variations of the typical three: waking, dreaming, and deep sleep. Some teachers teach that there are varieties of all three states within the three states. To call "lucid dreaming" a state is to deny that dreams can have degrees of lucidity. Similarly, there can be degrees of lucidity in the waking or dreaming state, and also of the deep sleep state. This is the basis of disagreement between schools that say deep sleep is a state of ignorance until one attains lucidity in the deep sleep state, and other schools that deny this. Turiya is not actually a fourth state, but the basis for all states, as I recall. Incidentally, Swami Sarvapriyananda makes a good argument that the three states can be reduced to just two: dreaming and deep sleep. Waking is simply a more stable dream. IIRC, Greg Goode follows Atmananda in putting deep sleep as a form of nirvikapla samadhi as opposed to a state of ignorance. If there is a short video, I would like to see it.

It seems though that the dream state can put us in touch with other beings (like meeting divine beings, sages, etc). For eg: my master often visited me in my dreams. It is not specifically "unreal" in that sense. There is still transactional reality to the dream world. It is not *just* a projection of the local mind it seems

I was just saying that knowledge is like a hallucination*, and I am especially referring to concrete and specific knowledge. Our knowledge is valid for us right now and we shouldn't ignore it. At the same time, there are two important considerations about what we concretely know right now: it's not permanent and it's not "how it always was, is, and will be", and also it's impossible to gain ultimate certainty in any knowledge that pertains to concrete and/or specific things. As knowledge becomes more abstract, it's possible to be more certain. By the time you can be 100% certain, the knowledge you are certain of is so abstract that it cannot be expressed in terms of any specific concrete thing or statements. People are always caught up in the specifics. For example, computers, keyboard, fingers, street names, up, down, Boston, London, and so on. Even things like breathing, sitting, standing, all these are concrete and specific forms of knowledge that aren't as abstract as say knowledge of space or love. When you know the nature of experience, how all meanings arise in interrelations and yet how nothing specific can be taken as ground out of which everything arises, in other words, no knowledge can be proven to be ultimately first or ultimately primary knowledge, that's a very very abstract kind of knowing. It's almost like not knowing anything. In this knowing you can be very certain. *Hallucinations are real in the sense that they do occur, but they're deceptive in the sense that if you make conclusions based on what you see, you will be either wrong or disappointed. So for example, in the desert mirage you see water. It's real in the sense that the vision is occurring, but if you try to drink that water, you'll be disappointed. So that's the quality of illusion. Illusion is not something that's completely fake. There is some truth to it. Inside an illusion there are its own rules and habit energies playing out, but if you try to take things inside an illusion at face value, there is disappointment. So things in an illusion do not exist in the manner they appear to exist, but the fact that an experience is actually occurring is not a lie. For example, if you pour some water into a pot and set the pot on a hot stove, it will boil. If you snap your fingers together, you'll hear the sound of snapping. There are roughly two kinds of views about the nature of this dependency. One view is that such dependency is hard, established, and always true. This is the view of the physicalists. The physicalists believe that the universe with all its laws is always there and it's always the same and stable. Thus, what you intend has no affect on the water temperature, for one example. Another example, if it takes 10 minutes to get water to boil now, it will also take 10 minutes on the same kind of stove to boil the same amount of water in 100 years from now and in 1 trillion years. So there is the assumption of perpetual immutability of these kinds of dependencies. And phenomenal laws are assumed to be disconnected from our own minds. So physicalists take what they see at face value when it comes to waking experience and they dismiss the dreaming experience as irrelevant and uninformative. Now there is another view about this. This other view explains that what we observe with water is not an immutable law of physics that's inherently established in and of itself, but rather it's a condition in the mind. We can call this condition habit, or habit energy. So why does water behave as it does? It's the habit of mind. With a lot of work it's possible to change the habit of mind and thus make the water behave differently. It's very easy to understand this if you think about what happens in the dream. In your dream there is physics too, right? You walk around in your dream and so you don't float in weightlessness. So there is gravity in dreams. If you learn to lucid dream and pay attention, you'll notice that light in your dream throws off perfectly formed shadows. So how is it that dreams look perfectly physical like that? Do our brains model physics while we dream? Of course not! The answer to this is much simpler. There is no physics. There is no brain. All that exists is mind to begin with, and the experience of stability and reliable predictable patterns is nothing other than habit. Habits come in degrees. Some are more ingrained habits, deeper habits. Some are shallower habits and easier to influence or change. Thus, in your dream even though there is gravity, if you know you're dreaming, you can fly. So all phenomena in dreams and in waking have this kind of psychological quality. What we experience is based on our beliefs, on habits we've accumulated and consented to over long time, on our intent and so on. Psychological factors like confidence and sincerity play a role in how we move and in whether or not we're successful in the illusionary "real world." So the non-established nature of phenomena doesn't just talk about impermanence in the sense of constant perishing, it also talks about intentional malleability and endless renewal. But our intent still has to cope with habit. Or in other words, our intent has depth to it, and what we normally call "intent" is only the surface layer of our true intent. A lot of our intent is committed to maintaining our habits but this is not obvious to the uninitiated. We think our intent is just that which makes us run around and do things. But our intent is far deeper and has far greater scope than that.

Hi Astral Butterfly, Nice lucid dream. Beautful. Congrats on finding your hands i your dream--whether you intended to and programmed yourself to do so beforehand. But as you may or may not know, finding one's hands is the first hurdle exercise in developing and furthering lucid dreaming in both Chinese and Carlos Castaneda's reported Yaqui sorcery tradition. A small white ball floating between cupped palms. I have not seen that in my dreamstate. But something similar and of different color a long time ago. Nothing recently. I think you'll find that when it comes to lucid dreaming, it's each to his/her own. But here may be some universally seen features. Recall that about 2 or 3 years ago, there were many, many reports all at once of FP practitioners seeing blue spheres in the waking state right after or during their FP Meditations. Lucid dreamstate visions are typically different for each person--unless, of course, you meet another person's dream body in a planned rendezvous. That, btw, is entirely possible and doable by two well-trained and advanced yogins. "Warriors" in Castaneda's parlance. If you want to continue expanding your prowess in lucid dreaming: Find your hands again in your dreamstate. Then once you see them, look down your wrists to your forearms, then progress to upper arms and front of chest. Then down your chest to abdomen, then look down at your hips, legs and your feet. Then see your feet and what you're standing on. Then look farther around on whatever your standing on and then at the environment. The point is to maintain lucidity throughout all your seeing. Get the process? Enjoy your lucid dreams and perhaps further explorations. Sifu Terry Dunn

Cat and Suninmyeyes, those are pretty impressive premonitions. In fact, things like the ones you describe should cause a major re-evaluation of any worldview that does not allow for shamanic sciences. I dreamed of a tsunami a couple of nights before I asked -- it's unusual for me to get this kind of a dream, so I wanted to see if the collective dream-consciousness contains any clues as to why I had it. The dream was a fractal-like one and I discerned meanings on several levels: 1. The most mundane -- I lost track of my pillow in my sleep and was sleeping in an awkward position, pressing the top of my head into the headboard at an angle that was straining my neck. In my dream, a great big green-tinted, and actually very beautiful, tsunami wave came from the ocean and submerged the town. I live a mile away from the ocean in real life, and the setting was absolutely realistic -- but the house is on a steep hill above the ocean, the whole mile goes up and up, so any tsunami that would reach it would be an extinction level event, to say nothing of the fact that we never get them to begin with. In my dream, Water had pity on me and the wave curved at the bottom as it reached my dwelling, creating an air pocket where I could stay and wait it out, but in a very uncomfortable cramped-up position, with a strained neck and with awareness of all the weight of millions of tons of the ocean above my head. 2. An explicit birth memory dream. If I get one of those, it's a sign I'm stressed out at a deep level in excess of mundane everyday stress, or else am about to embark on some new and uncharted territory in my life, or both. 3. A larger context -- a sense of the world being "flooded" with forces it can neither control nor contain (not necessarily actual water, a "flow of novelty" as Terence McKenna would put it, of a dangerous kind). 4. A still larger context -- the ocean is mighty pissed (what happened in Japan is one recent reason, out of many) and won't contain its emotions for much longer. 5. A still larger one -- it's Time itself, sweeping-away time, some different kind, Time swelling like a tsunami wave, pregnant with a cleanse or with wrath, or both. That's what prompted me to ask.

This is what spirituality’ means to me, developing the spirit. Some practices seem to develop a Frankenstein spirit, but they’ve developed something and are pleased with having any result whatsoever, while some will develop the spirit according to its authentic blueprint. I always found dreams were a good guide towards authentic development, one good dream can set you on the right path for many years.

I was accidentally pulled a lady's spirit out of the top of her skull - without touching her. I had just finished a fast so didn't think my qi energy was that strong but it was the strongest it's ever been and she was a little old lady. I felt this heavy electromagnetic blob get pulled out of the top center of her skull. She couldn't see what I was doing as she was sitting and I standing to her side, she looking forward. As soon as I felt that heavy electromagnetic blob get pulled out of the top center of her skull she just started bawling and kept bawling for at least 15 minutes while someone else comforted her. So then I remembered the qigong master teaching to never pull out "energy blockages" out of the top center of the skull. Another OBE experience I had was around the same time - I was in my room meditating, again my qi energy was very strong, and the room began spinning around me - but it was a spacetime vortex. I went into the Emptiness and had this experience that I can only define from what I felt after I came out of it. I really felt that who I was definitely was not my body nor my mind - and so I got rid of this Yan Xin meditation cassette tape since I didn't feel like I needed it - again I knew very well from experience that the real me was not limited to listening to some physical cassette. Also I recycled an old journal I had that covered about 5 years of my life - because again that was not the real me - the real me was not identified by my body nor my mind. So actually it took me many years to discover in the book Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality that if your spirit leaves your body without enough qi energy enveloping the spirit then it causes dizziness. So the remedy needed is to store up more qi energy in the lower tan tien - behind the belly - and that qi energy surrounds the spirit light body. Also I came across this same experience for astral travel - the spinning experience - from other sources. One was Peter Kingsley referring to ancient Greek Pre-Socratic documents on going into trance - for real meditation - having that spinning sensation first. Then Robert Bruce discussed the same spinning sensation for the real OBE experience. Robert Bruce, Astral Dynamics: A new approach to Out-of-Body Experience (Hampton Roads, 1999), p. 411 Both Bruce and Robert Monroe emphasize the energy of the lower tan tien - or behind the belly energy needing to be built up first. The Bushmen, the original human culture that are the source for shamanic training - also describe this spinning issue and say to focus the energy more as the N/om energy - again the behind the belly energy. But anyway during that same time again when my energy was very pure and the qi very strong my third eye was opened I also saw the qigong master continually create "yin shen" spirits out of the top of his head while he was sending out healing energy in full lotus meditation. Then the other qigong master said that the qigong master was sending out individualized spirits to go heal people - each one created individualized for a special person. So - that is a very advanced level of astral travel where you create - one person - multiple astral bodies that go out and travel around at the same time. On an even more advanced level it could be done with "yang shen" or physical bodies. Normally the "yin shen" can not be seen by other people. For example one time I had the qigong master doing healing on me and I could feel his spirit healing me while I was in my bed at my house at night. It was a bit strange but anyway - so since my third eye had closed up I wasn't able to see the spirit from his astral travel. There are different levels of astral travel - a lower form is having your "yin qi" leave your body - that has to use your "yin shen" as a kind of guiding pilot wave - alchemically the qi and shen are combined. But this is more like etheric energy dealing just with the lower emotional blockages being healed - still that energy can go through walls, ceilings, through the wind, long distance - it's a type of psychic energy, not real "yang qi" spirit energy for astral travel. So again for real OBEs you have to build up the qi energy so it is yang qi and this ability is actually quite rare. Real astral travel is an advanced state, contrary to New Age claims. This is also clarified by Shri Dhyanyogi-ji in his memoir: This House Is On Fire! Oh yeah and even the qigong master mentioned recently that once he had done too much healing on many people and so then he got the same dizziness as a spacetime vortex and so he had his advanced students teach a qigong class for him - so he could meditation to recharge his qi energy. I did have another OBE type experience from qigong. I was in full lotus listening to Coasttocoastam and this person called in saying the were frozen in their bed and they couldn't move but they felt this heavy weight on themselves. I knew that what they really felt was the weight of their own body - but they were experiencing it externally and so that's why their own body appeared to be an external experience. So then I fell asleep in full lotus and suddenly I woke up wondering who was in my bed and I had the same sensation where I could feel the weight of a body in my bed but I knew it wasn't me and then just briefly I could see my own body in full lotus and as soon as I saw myself - my spirit quick shot back into my body on the bed in full lotus. haha. I've also had precognitive dreams many times - and so that is also a type of astral travel - but it's difficult to say - since you can't really do a "double blind" standard on the source of the consciousness that is having the dream. As people have pointed out - if you leave your body - who are "you" to leave? If you have a dream of the future that comes true then your present state of being awake in a body is also a dream. And so which one of you is more real? What enables your future to come true in great detail? There must be some impersonal formless consciousness that is beyond spacetime and that is the real you. One last qigong OBE experience - I was testing Salvia against the qigong third eye full lotus energy. So Salvia is considered one of the strongest psychotropic psychedelics - it's not technically a psychedelic - but more like super super strong pot and the most common reaction people have to one strong hit of Saliva is that their spirit flies out of their body! This freaks people out so badly that even very experienced strong psychedelic users are afraid to take a 2nd hit of saliva. I read about this happening to people online and then I met 2 people personally who had that happen. So when I tested salvia - I didn't take the strongest dose possible but still I was in full lotus and I would black out if I took a very strong hit. The first couple hits I had very strong psychedelic experiences where my whole life seemed like it had been a dream. But anyway I also had a third eye opening experience from the salvia where I could see this rainbow aura around my hands - even though my eyes were closed, in a pitch black room, with a dark winter hat pulled over my eyes. But anyway Salvia wears off fast - and one time I took a strong hit sure enough Salvia tried to pull my spirit out of my body - only since I was in full lotus flexing my pineal gland - the electromagnetic qi was stronger than the Salvia. So instead of flying into the floor or some nearby astral dimension - my spirit was stuck just half way out of my body. So for a while there were "two" of me - my left brain awareness laughing at the Salvia - while I'm in full lotus - and then my spirit half out of the top of my body but at an angle. It was a very strange sensation but it didn't last that long. I was glad my qi energy was stronger than the Salvia because I wouldn't want a plant substance controlling where I would go in the astral realms.

So someone's in pain, and they're dying. And you say to them "Wake up! Don't die!" And they say "Ughhh, let me die already..." You can see how much relief there is in death, of letting go of that outdated stuff that no longer works so well. And accepting the new, fresh body, fully fresh and new and pure, new perspective now fully enjoying all of the benefit that your previous life has caused you to ask! It's huge relief. It's an experience of "FINALLY! THIS IS WHAT I WANT YES NOW I KNOW EVERYTHING! Now I know the truth of all that I have ever asked for, the answer is now finally clear within me, in my fully non resistant fully consciously expanded full blown non-physical awareness of all the good that is me and everyone. Fully capable now of purely focusing my energy and awareness on all the answers of all that life has caused me to ask" It's not heavy. It's lovely. Death is the complete opposite of heavy. It's completely feeling infinitely light and free and expanded full awareness of all that you truely have been and are. Full relief. The answer to all of your questions. But also understand that it's no more than that either. So people can allow all of that even in their physical body, if they let go of all the outdated no longer relevant ideas and perspectives while in their body that is what holds them back from fully living their life as they intended before they came here, and letting go of the resistance that causes the strain and stress. To fully enjoy all the benefit of all the new things. And it happens when you fully flow with all the life that is who it is you truely are at the core of your being that is always becoming more and better and newer and more now. And then instantly go here and now where all of that is all that you truely are fully expressed in this way and that way, walking the path of your passion here and there. Then that small paths become bigger paths and expands your excitement in life. And you then become more capable of flowing more freely with the ever expanding natural easy path of unfoldment of your ever excitement. Your essence doesn't go some place else. It's all here. Your interest in this here and now world and life and reality doesn't go away. Everyone is here, dead or alive. All part of the evolution of this leading edge time space reality. And the amazing physical nature of it that we can enjoy in so many ways. And bringing constantly into full realization all of our dreams in ever expanding ways. As every generation benefits the new from the asking of the old. And you are that new generation. That has asked for more freedom and receives it. It's not someone else that's gonna get your stuff that you truely want. It's you you and YOU! And it is never lost, because only our mind can forget, but that is why we luckily have a soul, that holds all of the best that it knows for us, eternally, ever expandingly. You are never alone in this. We're all in the same boat. And we all expand our dreams together. His dream joins my dream and we co-create in very similar dreams on this amazing stable platform of exploring all these different dreams into creation, on this platform ever abbounding well-being capable of supporting endless of souls to live their fullest most joyous life possible, in full purpose for the joy of all the individuals here. Does that come to an end when we die? No. Do you let go of the old perspective? No, you take the BEST of your old perspective into the new movement of the new life that will then be the best life you have ever lived before, that is why it feels so reliefing to let all of that old stuff go and enter the complete new of the now. As it always is that. People don't dig holes into hell, or build time machines to go to the past, we are not de-evolving into less. That is completely illogical. If you're not doing it, no one else really wants it either. If you're not interested in it, no one else really is interested in it either. Cause we all came here with similar intention, desire for growth, but mostly joy of the journey, and yet we came with different enough intention to experience completely different lifes of infinite variety of all that joy can truely be and completely free to do so, as the planet is fully capable of supporting all of it. And you don't have to worry about resource running dry. Cause the cake grows by the ammount you take from it. That is how energy works. If you truely enjoy cake, your passion for cake allows it to become more and more cake, forever! You don't have to worry about how the cake will come, that is for people who have a passion to make cake. if you enjoy cake more then you will also see more people who make cake more. New technologies are constantly rising to improve everything for that is also something that keeps expanding from the asking of so many who love all of that ever more effective and efficient technology. That then can become more like nature, infinitely slip streamed, super conductive, pure, high frequency technology, very inter connected like nature. Very sensitive technology, very natural. Very good. And same with all the communities and new ways of living and building communities. All becoming better. Ongoingly. You don't have to do anything but enjoy your life. As you're completely free to do so. Ever more so. And you certainly don't have to wait untill you die.

I'm talking about learning. 99% of the lineages I've listed provide distance learning. I've had personal experience of dream training with some of them. As you develop, devote yourself and tune into the master and lineage you will receive the transmission of the lineage if it is quality. At some point you will want to see them in person, and a lot(maybe all) can be done at a distance. I say maybe, because the internet and telecommunication is a recent invention, and a lot of the masters are experimenting with what they can do over distance, that was traditionally an in person only affair.