Search the Community

I use Absolute (brahman-advaita) more to differentiate it from the relative (maya-dvaita-names-forms). The Absolute/Ultimate Truth mustn't consider the relative, as the relative is only temporary, it can't be an absolute truth, but more of a relative one. If you include "doing pratical things in the dualistic world of names and forms" you obviously have to include every dream you have at night and so on - which we usually call an illusion. We usually call a dream an illusion because it's not self-existent, self-luminous and everlasting. The truth in an absolute sense must not depend on something external for it to exist, which would make it self-luminous, as there is nothing external to it that is aware of it, meaning it is self-existing, as it doesn't need the existence of something else for it to exist (like maya-duality-names-forms need), and is everlasting because it is beyond time (and space). Anyway, I guess both the ultimate truth and the relative truth are only from the point of view of the relative, as in the Absolute sense, there is no relative or absolute truth.. it just is.

Hi little dream, I got few questions, in your school : how much is it food/semen related ? What's the recommended died ?

Not necessarily the most correct because how the visualization is effected is contingent upon one's stage on the path. Since Chenrezig practice is non-tantric and does not require empowerment (the earliest mention of the mantra of Chenrezig is found in the Karandavyuha sutra, which isn't a tantric text), its practice forms are quite flexible. There's absolutely nothing wrong with your current practice. For those who've taken tantric vows, however, they would be performing the visualizations differently, thats all. Berzin Archives is a reliable resource, and if you're interested to gain a deeper view of tantric visualizations, Alex Berzin expounds it extensively here https://studybuddhism.com/en/advanced-studies/vajrayana/tantra-theory/visualization-practice-in-tantra Also this, for perspective: https://buddhaweekly.com/tantra-helps-stop-ordinary-perception-the-fast-path-to-enlightenment-but-how-do-modern-buddhists-relate-to-deities/ According to Vajrayana, that vagueness you mentioned is due to the layers of mental coverings. As your practice progresses, its said these coverings form 'scabs' and eventually peel off. One reliable yardstick to measure how much progress has been made is the increasing clarity and refinement that arises with the visualizations, and to what extent does that clarity persists in the mindstream is also a factor. A beginner might only be able to hold a fuzzy image of Chenrezig for a couple of minutes at a time, whereas a more mature practitioner might be able to capture in his mind's eye all the intricacies and subtle details of a Chenrezig thangka for a lengthy period without being distracted. Such stability is crucial because it prepares the mind for what arises at the onset of the dying bardo. So, in essence, no matter which deity practice one does, its best to stick unwaveringly to one for the whole of one's life and really drive it deep so that it appears to you in waking states and in dream states, and finally, it will appear resolutely at the point of transition from this life into the intermediate bardo, which, according to Vajrayana, is what crowns one's practice. That is the very moment where liberation can happen. This is clearly explained in all the Bardo Thodol texts and commentaries. Excellent resource for the various texts here - https://www.lotsawahouse.org/topics/dying-bardos/

Place : Wudang Shan Hubei Province China Traditional : Dragon Gate Long Men Pei, Complete Reality School Experience :I have amazing experiences here and this seems like a good place to share a story. The Night I Met the Moon Goddess In a dream a fellow student krishna wanted to show me a special place on the mountain. I followed him over many obstacles and soon lost sight of him, As I wandered thru the mountains I came across a door with krishna's sword through the ring of the handle. I felt great relief to have found him. As I opened the door the room was full of immortals some of which did not even look human and skin tones of all colors. they were all very relaxed and having a great time, laughing,having a celebration. I immediately shut the door as I felt I was intruding. When I reopened the door everyone was standing still like as to properly behave and Invited me in. As time passed all became a party again. When it was time to leave I had no idea where I was and Krishna was not to be found. I left and wandered through the landscape Then I was met by two beautiful women holding hands. The women agreed to show me the way home and for this I was extremely grateful. The beauty of these Goddesses was outstanding but I was only concerned with finding my way home. As we neared the place where I knew where I was one of the goddess turned to me with a face as bright and round as the moon and said .....I might just like men again, I had returned home. Year :September, 2011 a few days before the Moon Festival Which in real life, not a dream is another story and just as amazing

I had a dream that trump was deported. When I woke up dreamers where being deported. So am I the dreamer being deported or is it trump that is deported? Who is this trump person in my dream anyway. I had to of seen him on TV or the radio or something because he is not in my thoughts at all, never even met this guy before. So are our thoughts are own or somebody else thoughts made to seem like our thoughts even tho the thoughts have nothing to do with us at all?

Maybe the tale was originally inspired by a dream and the answer to Apech's question should be in the realm of ... dream logic. We all had dreams where causal connections make perfect sense while asleep, but they doesn't once you wake up. To really stretch the mysterious reality we live in, I could say that maybe dreams are driven and ruled by laws of attention and intent. To ask a question ( intent) about the grail would move the attention of the dreamer toward the grail and its associations of powers, virtues and effects. Specifically, the grail was a miraculous healing artifact.

"Dream-like" to me means the witness of the dream is involved in, and yet, detached from the contents of the dreams.

I have a dream that someday i can train with master Zhou. My plaining to go this year was lost due to the pandemic. Does the master give online class, like leve stream?

HI. Please speak more about the master zhou ting jue practices. I want to study with him, this pandemic has caused me a big trouble to make this dream came true.

Rara, I can't agree with advice to forget about a dream like that. At the very least talking about it like you have done is surely wise. I didn't read it as a physical suicide wish at all. My immediate reaction on reading of your dream was to interpret it as an inner conflict between a desire to extinguish the self as a separate ego, and the ego's desire to live and stay in charge. This extinction is a goal of Daoist cultivation, but when the reality of such a surrender actually hits home it's extremely emotionally confronting. But such a 'death' is a vital stage for inner growth and allows the birth of a new expanded self. You were partly aware of this possibility with your dream thought, Then I kept thinking to myself, I hope there is another life coming...

Yes I'm glad you recognize that state Tolle is in, it's a great indicator of a true teacher, the only other 2 people I've found in youtube videos who express that state are Papaji and Isaac Shapiro. Both seem like they are in ecstacy at times, laugh inappropriately, and are channeling a freaking river of blissenergy out their skulls. Papaji passed on, he had a number of teachers who claim lineage but he never really announced a true successor. Mr. Shapiro was his student and authorized him to teach. He flies from Australia to Germany and occaisonally California for satsang. His teachings are wholly tied to being present in the Now and not thinking, like Tolle and Papaji. These people do not seem to be able to plan for the future anymore, the energy is everything, I think it is addicting and they constantly feel like they are rolling on MDMA (you said you haven't done drugs, but the blissed state is the same, but not dirty or stimulating). For full disclosure, psychedelics in my teens (an LSD overdose) I think prompted my root chakra activation. After many false heatattacks from heart chakra pain, and partial paralysis from K gone amok, I rebooted my whole energy system with a mushroom overdose, which blasted my heart chakra open, ripped through my skull, and permanently changed me. The kundalini never stops from its progression from tailbone to crown now and I feel like I'm finely vibrating all the time. I rarely sleep because of the supercharged feeling, and fear of my condition oscillates the width of my heart chakra. The bliss energy radiant Love now-ness want to charge out my heart and erase my ego but I'm afraid to let it, and it's a struggle to maintain enough fear to maintain a mind able to function in a Fear-based society, with units of currency as $ecurity from starvation and homelessness. If you let the bliss take over like Papaji and Tolle you have to give control of your life away, you will be dependant on your friends or relatives to keep a roof over your head as Religion and Love and God is all you can think about, talk about, and do. Love is the energy of consciousness, and fear is what your mind is made of. Every thought is a plan for the future based on discontent of the present. The big question then is that the point of it all, to get into that state? You will become like a babe in an adult world, having no fear only Love. I think Tolle, Papaji, Mr. Shapiro, and others like them have handlers to keep their body safe while they are trapped/released into the permanent Now. I'm constantly tettering on the edge and I have no one to help me, my wife needs to retire, I have child support, I barely make rent as it is. Where I'm at now is trying to see how much Love I can live in without being erased, and stopping when it imapairs my job performance. I'll probably start playing the lottery or writing a book, I don't know if I'll every be able to focus enough to get a degree now in the state I'm in. Regarding the microcosmic orbit, I haven't tried it it seemed esoteric without having a live teacher and I'd already recklessly modified my energy permanentlly by use of serotonergics. (the blissed out state isn't dopamine and water, it's serotonin) If I don't find a way to sleep properly soon I plan to go the SFQ route (sorry Dorian!) as pythagoreanFL seems to know a number of people with roaring rivers of energy who can still function. Or I may just focus entirely on metta meditation like a wise poster suggested and entirely let go. One side effect of overactive K is physical reality seems less and less real, at this point I think its just a more static, heavy version of the dreamworld. Spirits arrange tests there and here just the same, synchronicity never stops and everything measures the mettle of your heart. Papaji taught everything is a dream your mind creates, but was confused why the world didn't dissappear when he awakened. I think now the dream and waking world are a testing ground for teaching empathy through suggestion and force, and when you are cured of your egoity you are let free. I think theres a cosmic society on the Outside of Dream and Waking where everyone is enlightenened and here is where those sick with fear of Love are sent. When we are cured we will be let out, and our dream guides watch our progress. Neo-Platonicism suggests something of this, I think the Demiurge/Archons may be our therapists. The writings above are what kundalini run wild will produce. Religion constantly charges through your mind and daily financial requirements, household maintenance, and future planning go out the window. With the V-shaped field above your head I think your crown is cracking and the energy will be extremely apparent in the near future. I have the electricity feeling in my teeth as well, and regarding the complexion question, I'm in my mid thirties and look like I'm in my late teens/early 20's, but I'm a health nut and take alot of antioxidants and eat a paleo-pescetarian diet and get practically no sun. Regarding the colors, shapes, entities question your dreams will get unbelievable and their character-caliber testing nature will be very obvious, you will get lots of Astral attention. Your synchronicity will get unbelievably frequent till you doubt your sanity, and what I've noticed recently is people who are "compromised" (entirely fear driven, ego-based) will try very hard to upset your equilibrium, I call the anger tests. People like these I think are easily possessed by the sentient Fear energy, it will go to unbelievable lengths to try and stop the outpouring of Love coming through you. Also you will be pulled into other peoples synchronicty and will find yourself a suprised player in their karmic evolution. I haven't had visions, I don't hear voices, and I don't hallucinate. Also the bliss doesn't take over unless you let it, but if you don't you will feel constant heavy pressure in your chest. These are my honest experiences and revelations I have experienced, I kind of expect to get attacked here after being so honest and I don't want to have to defend every insight I've been given but if thats the will of the spirits so be it. I wish you nothing but the best CM, the road ahead of you is VERY rocky and rarely travelled, be careful what advice you listen to (including mine, I've been wrong before) unless you feel in your heart it is valid. Many people will talk about knowing all about this energy but they never seem to mention the world-rocking ego-shattering brink-of-madness effects it creates. There is a site kundalini.se which seems pretty solid, I'd recommend checking that out for more advice. Also feel free to PM me anytime for advice when the going gets rough. I don't have all the answers but I'm about 2 years ahead of you in the enfolding/outpouring stage and I know how lonely it can be.

Well, this thread has brought up some things which have been major issues for me recently, so I'll share here. I got to the point where assuming Damo's Wuji for any amount of time, even a few seconds, would result in a kind of crushing of my kidneys, so that, in the pose I didn't feel pain, but afterward, if I made any movement involving the abdomen I would have sharp pain in my kidneys. Needless to say, I was quite frightened. I stopped practicing and got to work to see what might be wrong. Two major things that needed sorted our were 1. Collapsed arches and habitually holding my weight over my heels. When I would shift the weight into the front of the foot per Damo's instructions, my plantar fascia didn't engage as intended (which would be the physical correlate of activating yongquan), and the weight basically went into the toes. I was going from heels to toes and never actually activating the part that was supposed to activate. 2. The spiraling actions of the legs and arms that synergzie proper opening and closing of the hips and shoulders were not engaging correctly, particularly external spiraling of the legs. This came from years of practicing yoga with bad cues (basically, internally rotate the legs in all poses). So whenever I would open and close the kwa, there was a fundamental imbalance and instability in how it was happening. Even now that I have started doing a little practice again, I'm only practicing for a small amount per session, taking a lot of care on these points. There are further things going on not relevant to this thread that also need sorted out. I had a dream that warned me that I might seriously damage my kidneys, so I'm trying to not do that.

I see NO reason one has to be aware in order to to be. A blind person can make a painting, yet they can not ever see it. Is there still a painting? I say there is a painting because the blind person painted it. That blind person knows what was painted only because they painted it. I have done vast amounts of lucid dreaming. I have had 'false awakenings' while lucid dreaming, several in a row actually. I remained 'lucid' through all the false awaking including still being lucid when waking up into this world. An alarm clock can wake you out of a dream only if it exists in a world in which you are are sleeping. Its true that dream worlds cease when you wake. That is because you cease continuously creating them. It has nothing to do with your awareness of them. This world exists because you and others are continuously co-creating it. Even though at times you stop participating in creating this world, others continue to do so. Basically you are fixated in the value of 'knowing' which for you is based on being 'aware'. I'm not sure why you think only you continue when you are not being aware. Since you don't trust any other sources of knowing, there is nothing I can say or show you to make you understand my experience of reality. My experience suggests that I remain even without any knowing or awareness. Further my experience suggests that other 'things' also are able to remain when I am unaware of them.

Yes, recently I changed my understanding of this and related concepts in as much as what is real. We sleep, we dream, we wake up but our dream is still our reality until we decide that it wasn't reality. Some people never get to that last step. Chuang Tzu wondered about the last step. Yes, the dream is another realm of "our" individual experiences. But no one else sees or experiences our dreams. There is the difference. Chuang Tzu never said that the people around him said he looked like a butterfly. No, he looked like Chuang Tzu.

Sounds like a lyric from an R.E.M song. Yes, one thing that struck me was - what about when we wake up and often know we were dreaming? And often we can recall things that happened in the dream. Whether or not Zhuangzi was pondering/doubting or whether he was forgetful of the butterfly, who knows for sure? I think the main message has to be that a dream is another realm, equally as real to waking reality when you are in it. Because at present moment, in the dream state, that's all we have going on!

To be free from suffering in the dream of being chase by tigers, even though it is simply a dream, you need to wake up. When you wake up, you realized you attained nothing. But it does free you from suffering, even though suffering too is part of the dream and hence not real in the sense everything in the dream is just like an illusion. If you don't know reality is empty and dream like, you are bonded by it.

I am not aware of what you are talking about. What are the chances of a newb arriving there with the first attempt? Probably not much and i don't think i got there anyway. I remember that the very first dream i saw, was me standing on the base of something like a temple complex with stairs that went as high as the eye could see. Next i saw white wisps leaving trails.... I don't remember the rest but the problem is that it very hard to be half asleep and try to concentrate on chakras, let alone count breaths.... Don't bother with it unless you got a guide over you.

You need to be more specific...I have dreams and visions every single night. I dream of being in a earthquake just days before the one hit Greece and China's Sichau province.. Like boulders flying down like some sorts of mud slide. I wasn't hurt and so as my parents. Changes happen everyday. Events unfolding everyday. You will get a point in which not one dream is more different from the others....

Ok. Can you teach me dream yoga?

Did you ever wake up from a dream only to realize you are still in the dream

well today i felt bad, like its the day where i think i am having a death disease. Its stomach thingy i believe. This stage used to be awful, now i almost not even recon these stages as those. Started from dream state and all day some past stuff arising and stinging, and it burns./dream state i don't ntoice the stings and burns, but the theme carried over to waking state. //guess is that its hot is taken over by cold, since i feel cold winds. Also i think i need to visit toilet soon.

First of all, I have not viewed the link you supplied so I am not addressing the content in there, just your question about the substances themselves and their processes. The "goal" is what you make of it. It's easy to dismiss this, in fact many students when I say something so simple do dismiss this while acting in theoretical courteous agreement - "Of course, right right" they nod their head vigorously, while lazily internally waiting for a seemingly more tangible answer that they really want to hear to be handed to them. The world is full of answers- but what could be better than realizing that all the resource you have to Become already lies within you? This is not a PC statement or a clever statement, it's the transcendent recognition of self beyond illusion and it needs to be taken seriously. This chosen path cannot be resolved in understanding to transcendence by those who need mental answers and desire social satisfaction, this is the path for those who are able to find true resolve and harmony in being without in every moment- and I mean that in many deep, deep ways. It is not to say that one may not experience forms of measurable change through practice and cultivation, but if you believe these moments of flux to be the arrival of the 'goal' or 'the ultimate' then you will have already seeded misunderstanding in the experience that you just 'grasped'. A profoundly truthful recognition at any level or layer of form is always beyond measure because it transcends the human device even if it can be witnessed in and through us. So students who tell me they want a teacher who will make them feel something specific and tangible, who are thus driven by the experience of phenomena- these are the people who enjoy the perpetuation of phenomena, who ultimately, are afraid to be without. And these are the same people who easily fall prey to strong intellectual minds and are seduced by imagery (ie. academics, powerful and persuasive egos, the look of monastic robes, fancy romantic tai chi moves, amazing displays of qi projection, etc.,.), who get caught up in their own emotionality of fantastical occurrences (ie. psychotropic drugs, mystical occurrences, impactful collective experiences, etc.,.), and who continue to crave affirmation to espouse validation (ie. credentialing, titles, audience recognition, etc.,) and thus are easily led astray and seduced by persons, groups and experiences seemingly more prestigious and enlivened than they actually perceive themselves to be. This is the weakness of insecurity and highlights the importance of doing the internal work necessary for a deep self-knowing... after all, from what source do you think immortality and enlightenment arises- somewhere outside of yourself? is it just floating somewhere in the universe of dimension? do you think a school will grant you a title and in that moment it becomes so? will society thinking you are a guru make it true? do you mistake the heavens for the Unnamble Source? So no matter what your lineage, who your teacher is, in order to walk this path truly, it must come from a guidance deeper and even more profound than the thing you think to be yourself. There are levels of exploration that can be done in the comaraderie of peers, or for the joys of health, etc.,. and in some of those exploratory or beginning stages, the simple practice of tai chi, qi gong, or basic knowledge of Taoist esoterics can provide an excellent foundation. For those who are are committed, there is incredible benefit to be had through selecting an area of study with great depth beyond a general workshop or class- at this stage learning must be continuous and your lifestyle reflective of each piece of knowledge; thus diligence and discipline are required. At later stages (and by late, I do not mean external progression, but internal: who you are, not what you have yet appeared to do or not do- this is about a maturity of sincerity), a private mentorship with a true teacher and the appropriate application of meditation can be profound. Thus the level, school, teacher or lineage you select may affirm to yourself the level with which you are ready to understand- assuming that instruction meets the substance of your willingness. Those who walk the true path deeply have already seeded in themselves a profound honesty- an honesty that will help them select or discover a true teacher, they will be sincere in their willingness and because of this they will arrive and know in concert with the Tao in their own time, not even because of their true teacher or a great lineage, but because of who they are. So the answer to this question is not for someone to tell you, not for the thing called "Taoism' to decide, or even your teacher. You come to the teaching because you are ready. And what you select- in consciousness and in ignorance, will continue your chosen path. Ultimately, the true substance is not found in any matter of phenomena- you will discover once you arrive there that even the substances of these Treasures in their most pure essence are so subtle, that they too nearly surpass anything which could give it name, including their own given names. When you are transmuting, in some ways, the pathway doesn't matter. I say this in part because you will notice that each school or scholar talks about the order slightly differently and yet each is still possible. The orders are different simply because of the starting point that is chosen. Since the substances and mechanisms are entirely inter-related and inter-dependent, one will not go without having at least some affect upon the other- the degree and quality of effect dependent on the quality of teaching and practice. The most basic understanding is to know that the energetic physiology of the physical system begins at the root- so this is jing and moves through the triple burner converting pre- and post- natal essences into qi through the middle dan tien before it arrives in the upper dan tien to nurture shen. This is the foundation of formations from the energetics of the mundane, especially when we are looking at how post-natal processes enable human life. However, even our systems exist in layers and dimensions, so again, the understanding of point of origin needs to be guided by a greater sense than just human dictates and esoteric sciences. If you arrive in Original Consciousness, this will make sense (if you follow my posts, you will notice that they are focused on shen and not jing. There are many reasons for this but an essential one being that you can worry about the form all day, but the form really only becomes whatever it is because of our quality of Consciousness- form is ephemeral and transient, its only purpose or value is as a vessel to enable Consciousness in its many manifestations, hence this is why immortality is possible. So even if the root of the energetic body is in jing medically speaking, the root of both form and formless of any manifestation and its capacity for transformation is ultimately found in (yuan) shen. Hence, immortality only has the potential to begin after passing through the threshold of enlightened strata). Thus, though the wealth of the post-natal substance can be arrived at through intense focus in still fortification and drive in conservation, as well as substantive knowledge of the medicines to enable longevity- to the degree that you are moved beyond having a substantively healthy form, you will begin to explore what is 'original'- the yuan. Here, at this point, there can be no "goal", as you spoke of. If you put the goal before you, you will obscure the very thing you seek. To be able to transmute and recognize what is so pure, requires that you have come to a peace of mind, heart and form. Desire must be arrested and greatly diminished if not entirely extinguished. What is pure is not tainted by semblances. Thus the pre-natal essence becomes through not only the principles of health that guide the bounty of rightful mortal living but also the processes of purification and release- here is where one starts the process of truly being without. Being without may be reflected in form, but more importantly is the source of your understanding and orientation to form, so that form in its infinite manifestations is immaterial from within the perspective of those who reside in Nothing. Caring for the Three Treasures exclusively in the post- or pre- natal state does not automatically guarantee that each will affect the other condition entirely. There are many, many factors that influence what is longevity and immortality and how it manifests in an individual including the stage of life in which they begin their cultivation, the overall path of their soul across time and space, their existing quality of health and clarity at the time the cultivations begin; and at later stages- the choice of manifestation they select, the depth of embodiment, the core of their focus, their ability to influence time and space including that of their own soul or 'karma' , as well as how strong deep and pure their spirit is in connection to Yuan Shen and Tao. In general, those that have mastered nothing, need to just focus on good quality health and greater self-awareness, in short, being a good human being and becoming a more self-aware person; they can further their being through substantive theory and disciplined practice. Those that are able to cultivate longevity will not only have attained requisite knowledge, but live in an applied understanding and thus will set the later stage to begin the purification process. While those who began this lifetime in a state of purity, will likely have automatically attained a measure of longevity and can begin the process of the Golden Seed. Most people are in some complex mixture in between and all people will benefit from the understanding of the care of form more foundationally, while self-reflecting upon their spirit through forms of meditation no matter the semblance of their stage. I want to offer that those who are later in life and/or have not been regular in their practices, who feel that they may be behind or think they would fail to complete milestones in cultivation (ie. perhaps because of health issues, trauma, past transgressions, or simply because they feel so exceptionally 'ordinary', etc.,.) and thus are resigned to lesser 'achievements'- do not doubt and do give up: live every moment as deeply and completely as you know how in health, awareness and self-cultivation- for this is the way of every Being who has ever come into immortality- they realize the eternality of the moment and they live accordingly, for there is only this moment to be and become. Remember too, that from a much greater existential perspective the path of your spirit is non-linear, so all that you give to this moment transcends this exact place and time. This is one of the understandings you can come to realize and (yes, palpably- lol) experience when you reside deeply in presence. So do not look to a later time to become, do not assume impossibilities from fear and doubt. Carry a light heart, be present, live honestly: always. ----- And so as for speaking, the next time you post a question to the forum ask yourself why you ask at all. Ask yourself what is worth knowing and why. Ask yourself to the utmost of the self you know, what is the answer. Then stop. Be still. Listen as infinitely long as it takes to understand- that is meditate and live in meditation- not dream, not human ideas of peace, but deep still inner awareness penetrating the silence. Be willing to move in both the knowledge and mystery that becomes each moment of what you are. Be content not to understand, instead be an honest person- discover whether your own questions are sincere, because the honesty of your understanding in reply depends on the quality of your sincerity in asking. Students and practitioners who do not recognize answers through the very simplicity of nature and being in the everyday, will limit their own understanding even when presented with the most profound of direct teachings. The answers are everywhere; existence in itself is an answer if you can recognize it and even more so, if you can penetrate it: there is only you who has yet to discover your own capacity to truly realize and become.

Hi Silent Thunder, yeah i dream in vision as well... its just when i'm awake that i have trouble seeing with eyes closed... just realised if i'm meditating with eyes closed and i do start seeing things, it usually means i'm going to enter the dream state and wake up with a jolt... weird! I bet your wife has some unique perspectives on the world.. interesting conversations! Peace

Chuang Tzu isn't finished yet. He continues: At The Sage’s Mother’s Death One disciple said to his senior, “When the Sage’s Mother died, he wept, but without sniveling; his heart was not grieved; he wore mourning but without sorrow.” “The Sage,” said the other, “has really mastered the Tao. He has gone beyond the wise ones. The Sage knows not whence we come in life nor whither we go in death. He knows not which to put first and which to put last. He is ready to be transformed without caring into what he may be transformed; that is all. How could that which is changing say that it will not change, and how could that which regards itself as permanent realize that it is changing already? Even you and I are perhaps dreamers who have not yet awakened. Moreover, the Sage knows his form is subject to change, but his soul remains the same. He believes not in real death, but regards it as moving into a new house. He weeps only when he sees others weep, as it comes to him naturally. “Besides, we all talk of ‘me’. How do you know what is this ‘me’ that we speak of? You dream you are a bird, and soar to Heaven, or dream you are a fish, and dive into the ocean’s depths. You cannot tell whether the man now speaking is awake or in a dream. “A man feels a pleasurable sensation before he smiles, and smiles before he thinks how he ought to smile. Resign yourself to the sequence of things, forgetting the changes of life, and you shall enter into the pure, the divine, the One.”

I do like to humor you , youre in a very exclusive club. I was pointing out how non-chaotic I am , but then failed since pointing it out was a lapse -change of subject ,, so Back to the Dream .. Yes I would say the dream of the butterfly existed , but in the end of the thing , he expresses a less than complete certitude that the dream in gone. I see life as a general principle , expressed in living forms , but our definition doesn't need to be stretched far to include the planet as a living organism. To me , I don't see him making any claims that the identity we have is somehow preserved through the process of death. You would be able , better than I to bring in another clippet which could support the idea ,, though I would be surprised.