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Yes! this sense... permeates all about my life like a scent a dreaming within dreaming. to wake from a dream into a dream... who dreams? thanks for sharing this neti neti...

Thanks for sharing, I find his work to be very compelling. I bet Mr Hoffman would find a very receptive and understanding audience among those of achievement and realization in both Buddhist and Taoist cultivation and I was just saying in the shared dreaming thread yesterday, that for me, the waking state is another dream state. The first time I encountered him, he made an appearance in a documentary and I was reminded of the many potent similarities Fritjof Capra unveiled between the then cutting edge realizations about the nature of quantum physics and the canon and nature of taoist cosmology. Potent stuff. Go Mr Hoffman!

This was a profound read for me. I find what he was able to convey in such simple words to be remarkable. ~SIDDHARAMESHWAR MAHARAJ The worldly illusion [samsara] is a dream within a dream. Having understood this, indeed you have thought of what is the real Truth and what is not. The One who is never born went off to sleep. He has no old age. He is one who has no death. How is it that a dream was seen during a dream? That is, "he slept and dreamt" means He is deluded. "He slept" means he has become ignorant and thinks "I am the body, I am so and so." Reality was covered with ignorance and in that delusion there is again delusion, which is this mundane existence. It is a dream during a dream. The worldly illusion appears true. He was all pervading, He became small. Then he considered the worldly existence as true. In that very dream, he discriminated between Guru and disciple, merit and sin, and what is true and what is untrue. Other people pass away in this dream. It is a piece of great fortune to think of what is true and what is untrue during this long dream. "Even a dog does not eat a thing which belongs to a sinner." Renunciation of wealth, feeling of detachment and respect for a saint is the result of former merit and good fortune. He alone starts thinking of a sadhu. It is extraordinary to have such an intellect in the dream within a dream. To be conscious to be fully on senses, inspite of taking a doze of brandy shows that though money brings demonic pride, he still is on his senses. This is his good fortune. He is in a dream within a dream. But on account of his virtuous intellect he went to a Guru and discriminated between the True and untrue. He got the experience that everything else is false and "I am Reality". This means that he has woken up from one dream. When in this dream he deliberated again he came to the further conclusion that even saying "I am Reality" is false – the whole world and words are illusion. As a result he became tranquil by staying in his own blissful state. Truth was revealed. He fully realised "I am Reality." This condition means "I am fully awake." Not only the delusion but also "I have experienced" vanished. For if one says that he has experienced the Self, it means that he has taken himself to be different from the Self. The real test is when the self has no sense of "I". If the mango says, "I found myself sweet", then it is not a mango. If you say that "you had an experience", that means your "I", ego is still there. The idea that "I had an experience" is a delusion. The "I" in "I have become knowledgeable", or "I have become Reality" is ego. The former "I" should disappear. Whatever was before naturally is Reality. The thorn "I" has to be extracted, then you are through. When you become all-pervading, you become Reality. The sense of "I" disappears. It is One only and there is nothing else than That. To go beyond nothing is to be in thoughtless Reality.

    Okay let me explain little more. Dao is unlimited and vast and can not be named as everything/nothing (those are only fingers pointing to the Moon not Moon itself). Knowing the Dao is Yang Shen = Immortal/Clear/Pure/Positive (no suffering) depends on the meaning of the "Yang" and "Shen" which means generally wisdom. People think it's just some kind of immortal body but not any form can be immortal so I discard concept of immortality in the sense your consciousness can not be saved upon death even if you cultivate golden/purple/rainbow pill or whatever because it's product of taji so it also subject of cessation. What I actually experienced which I believe is Dao. which means you become transformed totally by knowing true nature of ourselves and dream-like state and then when dream become conscious you can manifest yourself thousand different ways when your wisdom backs to the source. It would make sense to me as explanation of traditional stages because as you become non physical you develop different type or consciousness which is not related to taji (or discover as it can not be product of effort, rather of understanding/wisdom/insight) So knowing the Dao is knowing that you are not the body nor mind, then when you realize that on experimental level not only intellectual level the mysterious gate opens up and you are knower of the Dao. Dao can be known, can be seen and from that perspective I can speak. There is something like Dao, enlightenment or whatever you name it (but you can not name it tho really as it will automatic generate conceptions/opinions which you gathered before when someone mentions it and your mind will trying to fit it into our framing if it's not fitting your framing the argue starts) There is actually way to know what buddhist called "central core of entire world/conventional reality", when are you feeling of being or sense perception of this reality ceases to be so, what we took as real becomes unreal and what was unreal becomes real. Silence becomes sound and sound becomes silence. Reverting the light as is said in Golden Flower. So you can just know the Dao if your perception is clear. Dao is actually withing this body - that why no need of true teachers or anything like that if you are attentive enough you can actually directly see the Dao and become immortal in one split second or even less. The other practices are just to open you up to Dao and then use different methods to transform you but those are what I call cultivating illusion and appearances. You said "So the person who naturally follows their nature; eating when hungry and sleeping when tired... does not know Dao ?" Knowing the Dao is beyond Taji, you get out of the Taji into Wuji, so those things does not matter any more, you are not limited to the eating and sleeping, this is only things which contributing into sustaining the body. Dao is not the body nor is the mind. Dao is beyond those two and Dao is inherent, here and now so to speak but we are tend to focus on our imagination, thoughts and beliefs systems rather then discard it all and start from scratch with sincere heart. Like if you understand the Dao is here, your mind natural start to look for it - most people "think" or "thinking for it, not really looking or searching. It's here all the time, but you are looking in wrong places. The more Dao become visible and the more Dao you know, the less and less real this world becomes - when less real world becomes till materiality is exhausted you enter wuji and become immortal, but formless immortal like a space without start and end and this is not bubbling and rambling of some crazy person. It's generally back to sanity, to the original nature things really happen like that. It's so unbelievable that I would never even think about it, you can not image this you can not even think about it. If you try to think about it in terms I try to explain you will go nuts, crazy or get anxiety. It's need to be confronted directly. So knowing the Dao is just this, knowing your original nature which is not limited to this body and mind and can be known instantly if you have no obstacles into perception or dust in eye. Actually the easiest thing to know the Dao is that you can hear the Dao. You can actually grasp the Dao thru hearing.

I'm interested. Pacific time zone, america. "Myths are public dreams and dreams are private myths." ~Joseph Campbell This statement resonates with me on a foundational level. I find, imagination, dreaming, wonder and the surface of the mind-pond to all be in a relationship. We have so much more in common than we do in distinction. I became a playwright and actor in my early life due largely to my experiences in dreamscapes and my love of consciousness exploration and a desire to enter the shared realms of imagination with the audience. Many potent realizations have crystallized for me through experiences in dreamscapes, so as a disclaimer... dreams are as real to me as sitting here typing is for most folks... and that to me, in a very literal sense, I consider the 'waking or conscious state' to be a shared dreaming state. So for me, going to the store, or the beach, or sitting here typing a conversation, is a form of shared dream work. I would sincerely value the opportunity to meet up with anyone else who is willing to invest the intent.

Hi A.A., When speaking of yang shen, are we referring to an energy body that is created to exist outside of our current physical body? When I first had a peek at Huimingching, I thought 'hey this is all about astral projection'. Then I thought it was odd the idea that one could make any number of immortal fetus and release them into world. Ok, so something else going on maybe. I'm thinking that a yin shen would be like what is called an astral body or dream body, hence insubstantial and ghost-like. Whereas a yang shen is the opposite--being able to manifest in a solid seemingly physical capacity to be seen and interacted with by physical beings in the world. The question is whether consciousness 'goes into' a yang shen. Is it a new vehicle that a person can move into leaving the origin body behind? Astral body seems like an extension of consciousness, a way to reach outside our scope, but still connected (and these apparently fade after original body dies). Is yang shen like this or is it actually a whole new being created? A mother gives birth to a baby; the baby is like her but is not her. How shall we understand this? thanks, and thanks for taking the time to expound on Wuliupai teachings. 8)

Point proven. Thanks ps - it came in a dream last night that you do not live in Malaysia, and now its confirmed. In fact, the name of your location came up as well, so you're not that hard to find, ethereally.

Yes of course. But the above will help in shifts that occur out-of-the-blue. The idea that one is a somebody that can be linearly impacted in time as in a process A-B-C will disappear and be looked upon as a dream.

Wonderful. Later on, I'll have to get people's time zone and maybe do an informal poll on what timing is best. The first rule of Dream Club is Remember your dreams. without that, you may be traveling, talking to gods, being naked infront of your class, but it doesn't matter cause you won't remember. So keep a journal, nothing fancy and write down your dreams. At least a title, preferably more. If you have a hard time, then set an alarm early an hour or so before normal. Get up, stand, set your intent to remember your dream, have journal ready, go back to sleep and/or listen to guided meditation. The last REM period tends to be the easiest to remember. If possible get to bed early. The second rule of Dream Club is talk about Dream Club. the more you keep it in your consciousness, the more likely it'll stick. Every time you walk through a door, stop, ask yourself, am I dreaming. Make it a habit, look at your hands, look at writing, clocks, look twice, be aware. I'll have to think of something witty for the next rule or two. It makes sense to familiar yourself with the guided meditation before hand too. For success: Dreamwork requires strong intent. Don't go to bed too tired. Focus on what you want- Remembering our dreams. Be patient, some are blessed and naturals. My aikido sensei was a serial dreamer, each night picking up the story line where it left off. For most of us, its a skill that requires time, effort and the right mindset. The Healing Tao US teacher Michael Winn talked about having his friends and students join him during dreams where he'd hold a flying school. Many people will have visits from teachers during there dreams. Ultimately we want lucidity and to connect, even if that connection seems at first murky and seemingly coincidental. And realize it'll take time and patience. The low lying fruit is more consciousness of our dreams, then there's the playground/holodeck in the middle, going higher there are dimensional learnings that are very powerful, or so they say. I've got some book learning here but little expertise. I look forward to input from teachers and those with experience with this caveat, I'd like to keep the intent of the thread, meeting up as the goal. Don't know if I'll get there, but we have some very talented people here and I wouldn't be surprised if some of them make it.

Wanted to know if people were interested in trying a group project? As aspect of dream work, notably meeting each other in dreams. Throughout the centuries this has been done purposely and/or accidentally. It has a long history in shamanic and religious lore. Rawn Clark a hermetic teacher talked about having a group that would meet in the astral plane on certain nights, later calling each other to confirm details on what they saw/remembered. Some early websites specifically dealt with such astral meetups, with mixed results. I have little skill in dreamwork, but others here do. I suggest we use a tool, Lilian Eden's guided meditation called Meet Me in The Dream; Lucid Exploration with Friend. It an explanation and hypnotic script, though an hour in length the audio instructions are quite short. It's mostly biaural relaxing sounds with no 'wake up'. Its on youtube and I'll try to include download of it here albeit in a low bit rate. You can grab it on higher bit rate off youtube. Let me know what you think. I suggest people listen to it, then we experiment. Having some nights where we start it together. Perhaps hooking up on Live Chat with a ready set go. Giving it a few tries. I've found early morning to be the best time to practice. Waking up at 4 or 5 am, focusing on intent, then listening and allowing it to send me back to sleep. Whatever protocol, afterwards people record there dreams as well as talking about there general experience. See if we have any 'hits', clear of fuzzy meet ups. I note that some dream groups pick a location. Such as the Pyramids, Stonehenge, Field of Dreams baseball, in a field looking up at the full moon (during full moon, Jan 12th the Wolf moon). If people are interested and or have suggestions we can start next in January. **note I shrank it to 16kps but it was still 7.5 MB. Below is the youtube. There are browser addons that allow making it an mp3 or aac or you can just listen to it on the computer. **keeping this in General area for now. Might move it later to Esoteric or somewhere else later, where it won't be moving up and down so much.

I think the knowledge is out there in the aether or the like/within, things will come in dreams with intention/focus. To me a lot of it seems like imagination/ consciousness creating/interacting. What if everything is a dream, one dream to the next. When lucid dreaming you wonder. The aim is to become conscious continually? as in the Nyingma tradition, to conquer sleep/dreams is to conquer death?

SAMARTH RAMDAS The world is as good as unreal to him who is absorbed in the meditation on the name of Rama [God]; and then with the vision of Rama, the whole of the phenomenal world will appear as a dream. To apprehend the Absolute Reality is, no doubt impossible for the speech, the mind and the intellect. But what this really means is that It can be realised without their aid, and that Its bliss can be enjoyed without there being any prior want or desire. If you wish to see God, you must cross the front gate in the form of this phenomenal world. The chief characteristic of a saint is that he is always intent in looking at the vision of God, whatever may be his condition or activity while he is in society. He becomes as fearless as Reality and devoid of blemishes like anger, jealousy, sensuous desires and so on. What is very essential in spiritual life is the combination of the realisation of the Ultimate Reality and the renunciation of all other things. Without any disgust for Godless things, there will only be a verbal knowledge about God, and the growth of God-realisation will be much hampered. And without God-realisation, renunciation will only be a pretence. One must therefore make himself free internally as well as externally. ---------------------------------------------------------- RAMAKRISHNA The mind steeped in affection for woman and wealth is like the green betel-nut. So long as the nut is green, it remains adherent to its shell, but when it dries, shell and nut become separated; and on being shaken, the kernel moves within. So when affection for women and wealth dries up from within, the Soul is perceived as quite different from the body. The knowledge of Oneness makes me see that everything is but a manifestation of God, the Absolute, on the plane of sense. Thus do I realise that all women are so many forms in which the divine Mother appears. Hence I revere all women alike – be it an unchaste woman, or an ideal wife who is an example to others of conjugal love and devotion. Unless one becomes as simple as a child, one cannot reach divine illumination. Give up your vanity about the worldly knowledge you have acquired, and know it to be futile in the realm of higher Truth. Be as simple as a child, and then only you will reach the knowledge of the true. Only two kinds of people can attain to Self-knowledge: those whose minds are not encumbered at all with learning, that is to say, not overcrowded with thoughts borrowed from others; and those who after studying all the scriptures and sciences, have come to realise that they know nothing. Jnana never comes without the renunciation of lust and possession. With renunciation is destroyed all ignorance. Many things can be burnt by means of a lens held directly in the rays of the sun. But you cannot use it in the shadow of a room. Even so with the mind. You must take it out of the dark cell of this world and expose it to the full blaze of self-effulgent Divinity. Then alone will come true renunciation, and all ignorance will be destroyed.

I m trying to find something of more self testing, and how we can feel or know it is authentic. I m not saying someone tell us if it is real or not or we tell others. according to what you said, how can we know if the ghost we saw was not a mind way of escape mechanism and get our focus into something else. how we can know ourselves if it is a real mind state or we dropped in a thought or dream of the mind.

"I can tell you I was so tempted to leave this 'miserable' material world" Really? this "world" / reality we live in, is very perfect and very far from misery and imperfection. It is just a mind judgement to what is, and in your own mind, it is negative and miserable (according to what you said). I would say, this holographic experience you had, is just a mind image that comes out from your beliefs (energy, celestial...) and as you said, lust, and I would add your perception of the world (as something negative). It is a mind sort of escapism (advanced dream thought) of what is, created to elude your focus from effective meditation. As we improve in meditating and in increasing our awareness, the mind will also improve and develop, and so its techniques that elude our awareness of what is.

I used to know Lust. Funny that the reason I decided to read this thread is because I dreamed last night. (I don't often do that.) I dreamed of two different redheads I actually knew in real life. Back when I knew them the attraction was Lust. In my dream there was no lust involved. The only visions were visions of their beauty and the nice people they were. I'm glad the dream reflected my "now" reality. (Yes, I still look at women.)

Sharing my recent experience. My istha devata is Lord Shiva. In bed, I was practicing Yoga Nidra and slipped into a vision/dream. In a hot coal furnaces with white/red flames, I noticed a python burning in the fire. First reaction from me was to panic and try saving this python and tried finding anything to pick it up. Then I saw it's eyes which was black but very serene and reassuring. I seemed to ask (non-verbal) if it's burning up but it said no and it's perfectly alright. And then I saw it's body... it was made up of hot coal it was resting on. I noticed my spinal column warming up while having this vision. My interpretation of this entity is that it was a "Naga Deva" from underworld but somehow connected to Kundalini.

I've recently added sleep yoga practices - connecting with the clear light during sleep. More challenging than dream practices but the results are also more direct and profound.

Hi Astral Butterfly, Nice lucid dream. Beautful. Congrats on finding your hands i your dream--whether you intended to and programmed yourself to do so beforehand. But as you may or may not know, finding one's hands is the first hurdle exercise in developing and furthering lucid dreaming in both Chinese and Carlos Castaneda's reported Yaqui sorcery tradition. A small white ball floating between cupped palms. I have not seen that in my dreamstate. But something similar and of different color a long time ago. Nothing recently. I think you'll find that when it comes to lucid dreaming, it's each to his/her own. But here may be some universally seen features. Recall that about 2 or 3 years ago, there were many, many reports all at once of FP practitioners seeing blue spheres in the waking state right after or during their FP Meditations. Lucid dreamstate visions are typically different for each person--unless, of course, you meet another person's dream body in a planned rendezvous. That, btw, is entirely possible and doable by two well-trained and advanced yogins. "Warriors" in Castaneda's parlance. If you want to continue expanding your prowess in lucid dreaming: Find your hands again in your dreamstate. Then once you see them, look down your wrists to your forearms, then progress to upper arms and front of chest. Then down your chest to abdomen, then look down at your hips, legs and your feet. Then see your feet and what you're standing on. Then look farther around on whatever your standing on and then at the environment. The point is to maintain lucidity throughout all your seeing. Get the process? Enjoy your lucid dreams and perhaps further explorations. Sifu Terry Dunn

Ok so I have been awful at keeping up my practice but it is constantly on my mind and stresses me a bit (especially since my pain is creeping back). Financial year end has me on my computer at 5am... This morning I had a lucid dream, in which I found myself spontaneously cupping my hands opposite each other at a "Monk gazing at the moon" distance. I was sitting. I noticed my hands were suspended in the air by themselves as if being nestled into the surrounding air. In the middle was a small white ball. Does this sound familiar to anyone?

I respect what you're saying and it'd be great if it works for the writer. Still, we can put our hand to the fire and cold of a dream and be just fine. The dream is.. empty, filled with what value we give it. In this case the author's bought into the emotional symbolisms of it. Is what CT pointing.. if you don't buy in/cling, if you realize its essential emptiness, you can get peace. And that metaphor for dream is the same as life..?? Much of the drama is of our own making. Not so much becoming godlike as.. a bit more Zen, less pulled and pushed by the dramas of the world. On the third hand, I like one famous dreamwork authors exhortation to take dreams more seriously (honor and figure them out) and life, less seriously. Life as dream (full of symbolism and synchronicity, yet not to be taken too seriously), dreams as life (full of important messages to ponder and figure out).. to a certain point.

Yes. Ganesh appeared to me, once, in a dream. It was over twenty years ago, but I'll never forget it. I was under the strong impression that wealth isn't necessarily material things. Please PM me, if you would know more.

THank you all so much for sharing your views. I will comment on some shortly. This thread will hopefully help others who suffere from bad sleeps in future. In fact, {and I could be wrong} , I don't believe my problem lies in my state of mind, and I have forgiven myself all my past mistakes and honestly only belive in making effort in the things that have nasty effect. But when you don't know what it is, you have no chice but to try every angle. I still give myself all day until I feel sometimes I can barely walk by the end of the day and my hamstrings feel like they are about to snap. I can get to sleep easily and still dream but as I said wake with painful diarrehoea and a deep cough. Thing is, I have had good sleeps in the past here, where I only needed 6 hours sleep, had deep dreams, woke with a raging boner and ready to conquer the day. Which means something seems to have changed in the envirnoment, either the walls of floor or windows or paint I don't know. Also, I would like to delve deeply into this, from all angles. I want to understand the thorough, clear way to have an optimum sleep so that I can help others do the same in future. So with this in mind if some don't mind sharing some subtle changes that you made {either physical mental or emotional} that gave you wonderful sleeps. Soon I will write another post which condenses this thread and other threads into some of the most common and effective techniques to at least give a shotgun approach for those not sleeping well. And also some weird questions: I bought an old'-school gas mask recently to combat what I think is the substance in the room that I am reacting to but it was too hot to wear and sleep in {go t a refund}. Does anyone know or has tried a gas mask that could be used comfortable for sleeping in? Is there any cheap method of doing allergy testing for specifuic substances? I.e any way to buy the products somewhere cheaply? I have found some on ebay but they are just for dog and cat hair / hay fever, etc. Regards Gl

A carpenter named Shih, who was on his way to Ch'i, came to Bent Shaft. There he saw a chestnut-leaved oak that served as the local shrine. The tree was so big that several thousand head of cattle could take shade beneath it and it was a hundred spans in circumference. It was so tall that it surveyed the surrounding hills; only above eighty feet were there any branches shooting out from its trunk. It had ten or more limbs from each of which you could make a boat. Those who came to gaze upon it were as numerous as the crowds in a market. The master carpenter paid no attention to it, but kept walking without slowing his pace a bit. After his disciples had had their fill of gazing upon the great tree, they caught up with carpenter Shih and said, "Since we have taken up our axes to follow you, master, we have never seen such marvelous timber as this. Why, sir, were you unwilling to look at it, but kept on walking without even slowing down?" "Enough! Don't talk about it! It's defective wood. A boat made from it would sink. A coffin made from it would rot right away. An implement made from it would break right away. A door made from it would exude resin. A pillar made from it would soon be grub-infested. This tree is worthless. There's nothing you can make from it. That's why it could grow to be so old." After the carpenter had returned to his own country, the shrine oak appeared to him in a dream, saying, "With what trees will you compare me? Will you compare me with those that have fine-grained wood? As for the hawthorn, the pear, the orange, the pomelo, and other fructiferous trees, once their fruits are ripe, they are torn off, and the trees are thereby abused. The big branches are broken and the smaller branches are snapped. These are trees that make their own lives miserable because of their abilities. Therefore, they cannot finish out the years allotted to them by heaven but die midway. They are trees that bring upon themselves the assaults of the worldly. It's the same with all things. But I have sought for a long time to be useless. Now, on the verge of death, I have finally learned what uselessness really means and that it is of great use to me. If, after all, I had been useful, would I have been able to grow so big? Furthermore, you and I are both things, so why the deuce should you appraise another thing? You're a defective person on the verge of death. What do you know about 'defective wood'?" When carpenter Shih awoke, he told the dream to his disciples. "If the oak's intention is to be useless, then why does it serve as the local shrine?" they asked. "Silence! Don't say another word! The oak is merely assuming the guise of a shrine to ward off the curses of those who do not understand it. If it were not a shrine, it would still face the threat of being cut down. Moreover, what the oak is preserving is different from the masses of other trees. If we attempt to understand it on the basis of conventional morality, won't we be far from the point?"

Strange...I came across the Shiva Sutras somewhere yesterday...perhaps in my dream...not sure. The thing with Sutras is that we don't need much commentary if the translation is good...and this is a good translation. Thanks for sharing...