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From the Dzogchen perspective. The Dream Practice by Chogyal Namkhai Norbu
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I will write more about Turiya and some of the things that are unveiled to a person that has reached that state. The 5 cloaks such as time, space, limitations, etc does not limit a person who has transcended to 4th state. In Daoist terms, I would call such a person as Ruler Immortal. The state described transcends the sleep, but not bypasses it. One in sleep during turiya does not hear to external sounds through senses. The sensory mind, out of the 4 I described earlier with sense perceptions and sense organs are off, since they are in sushupti or deep sleep state. Also, it is possible for a person in Turiya to dream from time to time. Gautam Buddha had dreams from time to time, this is mentioned by him and well documented in some sutras. Generally their sleep is devoid of dreams. I am not sure about the state you describe, but I don't think it is similar to what I described as Turiya. Perhaps you are describing some semi-awake state where the sense organs still operate and provide input to the mind.
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I am trying to show this retaining consciousness in sleep is not something from Hindu scriptures like Upanishads, or from the teachings of great masters like Ramana Maharishi. My arguments are to the point and with regards to this topic. It's not a debate about the greatness of the Ramana Maharishi or traditions. I agree with some of what you say, but feel it's just generic and all over the place. Quoting is important when we make certain claims or connect our experiences to masters, traditions or scriptures. It is very easy to misunderstand our own experience many times and think it is something, while it may entirely be something else, which we discover later! Appreciate you taking the time to share your thoughts. I stand firmly by the OP and with the explanations I gave in subsequent posts. Reattaining Consciousness (jagrat state) in sleep is a myth, except for the temporary states of lucid dreaming. Awakened sleep or Turiya is an entirely different topic which many seem to ignore and just favor this new age 'consciousness in sleep', which has been debunked by many traditions. In my view Tibetan yoga refers to the awakened sleep or Turiya in their teachings, certainly not this retaining consciousness. Only in lucid dreaming they try to bring the conscious awareness into dream. This happens temporarily and only in certain stages.
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A body may sleep fully and yet have a prevailing awareness. This is not a reference to an instinctual awareness. Dwaiās desciption is quit accurate. Awaken has also previously mentioned the no dream aspect wherein we concur.
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I learn from all. Ramana Maharshi has filled in some vital points in my meditation practices. He is not my only source. His "Talks" are obviously very disjointed since random people come to his ashram at random times and ask questions to which he responds in the moment based on their level of understanding. What he says to one person may not apply to another and he directly states that on many occasions. It was difficult reading him at times because his answers to the same questions from different people at different levels can be significantly different. Therefore, there is not a preferred prescribed practice from Ramana other than self-enquiry which he highly recommends. Even with self-enquiry, he states that there are relatively few who can practice that well. For those who cannot do self-enquiry for whatever reason, he recommends bhakti. For still others, he recommends karma yoga (losing one's self in service to others). For those who cannot do any of the above, he recommends pranayama since it is a "natural sedative" and will calm them down. The Tibetan Book of the Dead and the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying aptly describe the similarities between going to sleep and dying. I personally met with the author of the Tibetan Book of Living and Dying as we discussed my near-death-experience compared to what he had just taught at St. Peter's Church in New York City. In addition, the Sufi mystic Hazrat Inayat Khan spoke extensively about "dying before death" which employs the same principle albeit with different terminology. I studied directly under his son, Pir Vilayat Khan, for about two years and these subjects came up. Kabbalistic Rabbi Aryeh Kaplan of my borough, Brooklyn, spoke and wrote extensively about the talmudic consensus regarding what happens at physical death and how to prepare for crossing over. My practice and knowledge is a composite from various traditions that did not contradict each other regarding basics and are consistent with my own near-death-experience and my conscious sleep practice. In addition, my own spiritual mentor was a guide in this respect. I am not going to peruse Ramana's writings to identify where he spoke or hinted about conscious sleep. You will have to do that yourself if it's important to you. I would recommend that you follow your ideal practice to the end and do what is best suited to you personally as all of us are unique and what works for one may not work best for another. Ramana Maharshi has stated that explicitly as I mentioned above when he recommended self-enquiry for some, bhakti for others, karma yoga for still others, and a "natural sedative" (pranayama) for still others. Now, do as you wish. P.S. Ramana's words about the Light projecting the brain and the impressions in the brain manifesting as the body and the world triggered me to apply that to the dream-process and use that as a catalyst to understanding how to trace the Light back to the Source as best as possible. That was all that I said about Ramana in this respect and it was a vital point related to something on which I was meditating at the time. My teacher once told me, "You're an experienced meditator. Meditate and all will be revealed." Verily, what has been important to me has become a subject for meditation and revelations just happened in one way or another with Ramana's talks filling in various pieces of the puzzle for the subject under consideration. However, I repeat that Ramana is not my only source but what he has said does not contradict anything that I have discovered and incorporated into my understanding of the Reality. That is why he remains one of my favorites. P.S.S. I am sure that you have discovered that words are ultimately inadequate and cannot express the inexpressible. With a user-name like Siva, I am sure that you are aware of Dakshinamurti who taught in utter and complete silence. Quotes from the Upanishads can only go so far. Some of my most illuminating "dialogues" have been in complete and utter silence with masters who have virtually no following at all since there are very few who are receptive to that kind of communication. Most need words and "quotes".
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Yes, it's better to agree to disagree on this. Agreed on different strokes. Appreciate you taking the time to expand and explain the benefits from your perspective. I agree with many things you explained about the specifics of the benefits and yet believe it to be limited in scope. That's just my thoughts and my experience on the subject. I don't expect anyone to agree if their personal experience or if the tradition or the teacher they follow explain otherwise. Agree on more untangling and release as a continuous ongoing process. But, instead of patterns keep returning, I feel that we continue to untangle and release in deeper and deeper layers, as we grow and integrate more of the subconscious layers into the conscious layer. Once we clear and untangle issues in a certain layer, that layer is complete and we proceed on to work with the issues in a next or further deeper layers. One same issue in a certain area could go very deep into the subconscious layers. When one layer is cleared, it feels like the pattern or issue is entirely gone. But we may discover it is still present in the deeper layers and there is more untangling and releasing to do before we can completely release the issue. I never said any of these practices are of no value (entirely) to me and/or others. I am not discouraging any practice such as sleep or dream yoga entirely. But retaining consciousness during sleep is something I cannot agree as a fixed state or result (besides lucid dreaming) based on my personal experiences and from the systems I follow. Agree entirely with the highlighted part above. This is also why I would argue no single practice is a must/essential for everyone since all of us are different and are in different stages of our journey. What works for one may not work for another or even possibly can be harmful.
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As far as I know, Ramana Maharishi never taught, advocated or advised anyone ever to 'practice conscious sleep'. He never gave any methods or practices to get into such states! If you claim so, please provide the appropriate reference where RM advocated or taught such practices. If it is your assertion to practice conscious sleep and if you think it will reveal the truth in Ramana's words, then please explain that appropriately. As I mentioned in the previous post, none of the major Upanishads, Brahma Sutra or Gita propose or teach anything like conscious sleep or provide any methods/practices for it. If you disagree with this, please quote from the relevant upanishad and explain. If it is from your own experience, you are describing this 'consciousness in sleep', it's fine with me, I would respect it as your opinion. But trying to equate that up with Ramana Maharishi's teachings or Upanishads is not appropriate unless you can substantiate it with proper quotes. I have explained the difference between awakened sleep (Turiya) and retaining consciousness in sleep. As explained earlier, I don't agree with retaining consciousness in sleep and consider it a myth. Turiya is described as a state that transcends all the other 3 (jagrat, swapna and sushupti). None of the scriptures or traditional masters ever proclaimed that after a certain state, the jagrat avasta (waking conscious state) continues non-stop, into the swapna (dream state) and the sushupti (deep sleep) states. If as you explain, the conscious awareness is always retained through the sleep state, then it is jagrat all around and not Turiya. There is no need for a 4th state that transcends the other 3 states. If someone is not able to get into the sleep state and retain the conscious awareness as in waking state all time (the Yogi example you gave who never lies down or goes into sleep), in my opinion something is wrong and the person better get some medical help or reach out to someone like BKS Iyengar or a qigong healer. I am saying this with good intentions.
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I agree with you completely and I love the eloquent, precise manner in which you have described the process. I have practiced "conscious sleep" ("chetan nidra" or "sleep yoga" as you call it) for many years and have actually discussed the process at length with Buddhist monks in the highlands near Luang Prabang (Laos), Sufi Shaiks, Tibetan Buddhists in Lhasa many years ago, and other practitioners. Everything you wrote is very consistent with my own understanding and practice. At the Haridwar Khumba Mela in 1998, I personally met for the first time a yogi who reportedly had not slept in the traditional manner (supine) for years and, through an interpreter, asked him how he did it. He stared at me for a while and then responded directly to me in two words, "chetan nidra", which of course means "conscious sleep". The interpreter looked at me and said that he wasn't sure how to explain that response to me but I assured him that I understood and didn't need a further explanation. My colleagues and I checked out this yogi for the 3+ weeks that we were in Haridwar. We saw him during the daytime at the bandaras (feasts) and also at night at his tent beside the Ganges. At no time during that period did we ever see him lying in the supine position or unconscious. When I did a brief stint in Adult Protective Services, our organization worked closely with VPS (Visiting Psychiatric Services). One of the psychiatrists, who knew about my travels and interests, jokingly asked me if I had ever met any of the well-documented cases where yogis go without traditional supine sleep for years. I responded that I had met such a yogi personally and, when I described the process, he said that my explanation was the only explanation that he had heard which made sense from a medical perspective. Using your terminology, I find "dream sleep" to be very helpful in identifying latent urges (subconscious as well as the obvious conscious ones) that trigger dreams. Like yourself, I feel that cultivating awareness in deep sleep does indeed seem to be the closest we come to the experience of the Clear Light Dharmata Bardo in life as we are temporarily "free" of the body and workings of the mind. I also find it illuminating to observe the transitions between the three states --- particularly the transition from the deep sleep state to the so-called waking state. I hope that you post more on this subject as your observations and preciseness of language are very much appreciated. You have stated it better than I could. Thank you.
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Seeing, Recognising & Maintaining One's Enlightening Potential
C T replied to C T's topic in Buddhist Textual Studies
Ultimately Going Beyond All Paths "The Four Noble Truths definitely exist on the relative level. Since conventional reality forms a huge part of our experience, it is necessary for us to fully understand these precious truths. We can highlight them using the metaphor of sickness. To begin, we can say the First Noble Truth diagnoses a disease. As we all know, if we want to cure a disease, we must discover its cause. This is outlined in the Second Noble Truth. Once we know the cause of a disease, our doctor can prescribe effective treatment. Here, the Buddha is the doctor prescribing the path of Dharma, the Fourth Noble Truth. This is like the medicine that will bring us to a state of complete health, or cessation, described in the Third Noble Truth. That is the relative level. On the absolute level, the Four Noble Truths have no inherent existenceāthey are all based on great emptiness. Having thus pronounced the emptiness of both the ground and path, Avalokiteshvara arrives at the fruition or goal of practice: transcendent wisdom. This, too, is empty of inherent existence. ā...no wisdom, no attainment, and no non-attainment. Therefore, Shariputra, since bodhisattvas have nothing to attain, they abide in reliance upon the prajna paramita. Without obscurations of mind, they have no fear. Completely transcending false views, they go to the ultimate of nirvana.ā Many practitioners reach a stage of realization in which they are still subtly attached to the state of wisdom itself. But to be truly free, it is important for them to cut through all dualistic conceptions, including those of āwisdom and ignorance,ā āgaining and losing,ā and āattaining enlightenment.ā The ultimate view is therefore expressed philosophically as āneither ground, path, and fruition, nor no ground, no path, and no fruition.ā We must try to understand this crucial point. Both samsara and nirvana are in the single state of great emptiness. Once more, this emptiness does not describe just one part of realityāit is the true nature of every phenomenon, be it related with samsara or nirvana. There is absolutely nothing we can grab ahold of and cling to forever. For this reason, we need to be brave when it comes to the true nature, but it takes time to build up our understanding and courage. If we think, āOh, reality canāt be like that,ā it means we are hesitating because we are deeply frightened of the true nature. By cultivating vajra bravery, however, we can reach the stage of experiencing total equanimity in all situations. At that point, there is neither hope nor fear, neither demons nor gods. This is the ultimate level of fearlessness. On the reality level, we exist in the same way a reflection of the moon in water exists. We experience in the same way a sleeping person experiences his or her dreams. In essence, whether we presently struggle through our dreams or enjoy them, we assume that what is happening is real and true in the absolute sense. Yet our reality is only true within the context of dreaming. When we awaken, where do our dreams go? The people, trees, and mountains we experienced were just illusions rooted in emptiness. The dream state we have just described is actually very close to our everyday waking state. When we get up in the morning, we tend to think we have awakened from an insubstantial dream into a more substantial and true āreality,ā but in fact we have simply shifted from one dreamlike state to another. All of our waking perceptions are merely the results of mental habits and karmic patterns accumulated throughout an infinite series of our previous lifetimes. Since these habits are so deeply ingrained, it can be terrifying when we are shaken from the illusory security they offer. We are afraid to see things differently, and we must give up a lot of our dualistic notions to do so. Nonetheless, when we succeed in changing our old habit patterns, our experiences and perceptions will have a greater dimensionality, understanding, and clarity." ~ Venerable Khenpo Rinpoches Ceaseless Echoes of the Great Silence (pgs 51-53) -
Beautiful! My experience is similar too. Unaffected awareness continuing through the three states of waking, dream and deep sleep. I would venture to say that this awareness is the same even when not meditating on anything. It is a sheet anchor that grounds us to our being, irrespective of what the mind is doing -- which ranges from doing nothing, to doing mundane things in the transactional world, to interacting and merging with deities and disembodied beings in the astral and causal realms.
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...a will, is an aspect of a consciousness. Consciousness is continually in flux... impermanent. It does not matter what you think you can achieve or hope to dream..... you are like all of us; subject to conditions of existence. A far greater goal for you would be to inquire into what existence actually is, how it behaves, and how your being relates to it, that way you may be able to understand if you could ever exist with your "will" outside of it. As to aspects of what a "will" is - I have only found two types, my own and everyone else's, and the will of the universe....
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Some suggestions Niraj. Set your intent on balance. Notice everything that is already well with you. This will shift your mindset to a different posture where healing becomes possible. Remember your value as a human being. Remember that any energetic disturbance is ephemeral. Remember that you've been through many problems in your life and always overcame them. Become more gentle in the way you see yourself, in the way you approach this situation, and project into the future. You could say your thoughts are quite hard right now. When you see your life as a math problem to resolve, that's hard thoughts. When everything is like a day-dream and you don't apply a lot of force or direction over your thoughts, that is soft thoughts. Hard thoughts will make this situation worst, they gather energy in the head and harm the digestion. Speed will make this situation worst, both speed of thinking and speed when practicing. You need to slow down. So drop your shoulders and let the energy drop to the lower dantian. Interlock your fingers and massage the dantian slowly 36 times clock-wise while saying any of these "my energy balance is restored", "my energy quiets down", "my thoughts become soft", "I love and value myself", "I forgive myself". When you do this, don't attach to any outcome. Don't do this while closely monitoring the process to see if it really works. This is like being in a house and trying to watch the house from outside at the same time, you'll just project all your energy outside with hard thoughts again. The house is your body, come back to the body and stay there. Be sincere. Last bit of advice. When you do Qigong or meditation, start with a prayer. "I am going to do Qigong for 20 minutes just to take care of myself. I am just going to relax so much and love myself and not attach to any outcomes". Forget your condition, just do Qigong for yourself, and if you see healing come as a side-effect, then that's great. You can heal quicker that way. You can also get a healing from Master Lin if you want or best would be to go to a retreat. Good luck and take care
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Good, growth, positivity, love, happiness...
freeform replied to moraldilemma's topic in Daoist Discussion
Great question. We can think of it in terms of something more objectively verifiable... like skill for example. Letās say skill in speaking a second language... With any skilfully directed endeavour, progression is never linear. Take the language learning as an example... most people learning a language know that their ability to use the new language improves in leaps. With plateaus in between. The act of learning will be linear (you always have 4 classes a week) but your ability will jump a level now and then... First you recognise words... then something clicks and you recognise grammar... then something clicks and you manage to speak some words and be understood... then sentences... then more complex sentences... and so on until one day you wake up and realise that you were dreaming in your new language. And so it is in cultivation. So of course you can make jumps, develop certain virtues before others and so on. But what weāve done as a culture is weāve massively lowered āthe barā - particularly in relation to spirituality. So we equate ālearning a bit of vocabā with ādreaming in the new languageā. But theyāre on a completely different level altogether. Knowing a bit of vocab we think we know what itās like to dream in the new language - thatās the delusion bit. (And in no way am I saying that youāre doing this!) But we have people with āa bit of vocabā writing books and selling seminars and teaching everyone they can about this new language... not only that, but adding their own changes, reinterpretations, new meanings etc. And so others come and they learn a small part of that ābit of vocabā and then they pass that on by teaching and what results is just a mess. This is where spirituality is at the moment in my opinion. But thats besides the point... Yes of course youāll develop as you train. But each jump in level is a major paradigm shift. And the previous level is clearly seen for all its limitations. -
But that myth you call a myth is not a myth at all. Once one realizes one's true nature as Turiya, the myth that "retaining conscious awareness in sleep (either dream or deep sleep states) is a myth" gets busted...
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I agree that people can confuse it with being awakened. I forgot I had this Dzogchen dream practice book.
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When the existent and the non-existent have become the same, it does not mean that everything is no unreal. It means that everything is now the same. So the car is understood to be on the same level of reality as the dream. This does not relegate the car as much as you might think. Nor is the dream promoted as much as you think. But this is the vision of idealism. It is as old as the hills. And like I said, it is the paradgim you use to understand your mental life, and that of others. So perhaps we can appraoh the question of the premise from another angle. If you and your interlocutor, both keen logicians, disagree on the premises you should adopt. How, logically, should you determine whose is the correct premise?
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"The Shool for Gods" by Stefano D'Anna A wonderful initiatory novel for those who believe that it is not necessary to flee the world or to retire to a monastery to become an accomplished being. Inspired by the voice of the master, here called the Dreamer, we learn to go beyond our limits, overcome our fears and face our contradictions with disconcerting lucidity and daring. "The world is as you dream" .
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That wasn't proof of anything. I had a dream where I saw a passenger aircraft crash into a mountainside and burst into flame. After the recent crash in the Alps I began to match the memory of the dream with the pictures I had seen. Before long I was convinced that this was exactly what I had seen. The mind is very susceptible to error. Most of us can't remember where we put the car keys and yet we don't go intuiting those- which would frankly be a lot more useful than seeing someone's face.
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There is a Lord of Death. He is from Eastern Culture. There is one way around the Lord... You must run. If you have more knowledge than you are allowed he will find you in a dream and you can not hide. Good night. -theNERD
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Logic is not intellectualism. Logic exits to free us from illusions. With the good premices, that is taking perceptions as face value, and working from there. The mystical and the intellectual both dream about things that can not be perceived, and assume their are because he/she is inspired to think them (mysticism), or infers that its right to to think them (intellectualism). In both cases they work on non-evident things. This is not the way to be in the Now, because you dream of things that possibly were, are, or will be; instead of percieving perceptions, and so percieving how the mind works. It's easy to see that Rality has apparences, and that if we focus only on them we are deluded, because there is "something else" beyond, too. But it we chose to focus instead only on the "something", because we can feel or think it, we are equally deluded. We live only with one half of Reality. By direct use of the perceptions we can experience that 1) there are apparences, 2) they are illusory, so 3) there should be something else too, but 4) the apparences are still here. That's logic. Not the apparences, Not the truth beyond, not both, not neither. The only path left is what you'll call "Emptiness", because the mind needs a label. That is logic, but that is not something the mind can grasp intellectually. The mind wants distinctions, rules, dualities, it does not satisfy with the tetralemna. We think that the intellect is rational, but it is not, it hates logic, because it craves for dinstinctions, it is dying to know what to fear, and what to desire. So back to my points: distinctions Some people love the apparences, and fear the infigurable beyond, often because for them it represents void, darkness, death. But both mystic and intellectual persons feel safe with the beyond they believe they can figure, and try to avoid being deluded. But it is the nature of Reality to have deceiving apparences, so we have to be deluded, and just not feel good or bad about that.
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What are some of your favourite threads on the taobums?
thelerner replied to kudos100's topic in General Discussion
There are 100's of great threads made up over the years. This thread on Dream Yoga is great- http://thedaobums.com/topic/38953-dream-yoga/?p=637462 I look forward to this one involving studying the work of famed taoist Wang Li Ping work will be be a long deep thread- Yin Xian Fa and beyond http://thedaobums.com/topic/39020-yin-xian-fa-and-beyond/?p=638696 Many great insights from all the threads in the Interview section http://thedaobums.com/forum/356-interviews/ This has many interesting answers What Results Have People Had Here http://thedaobums.com/topic/38454-what-results-do-people-here-have-from-training/?p=626644 Here's an old one The Secret of Conscious Cocreation http://thedaobums.com/topic/1701-the-secret-of-conscious-co-creation/?p=15538 Here's a long informative thread on an important subject Opening the Third Eye- http://thedaobums.com/topic/27001-opening-of-the-third-eye-and-other-byproducts-along-the-way/?p=402840 -
Yes - but what has that to do with being awake or just dreaming? I personally once had a dream in which I dreamed to have waken up, but then after that I really woke up (not in the spiritual but in the normal sense). And it makes one wonder: could it happen that I would wake up again after that, and after that, etc. So whatever one's experiences (including spirit quests, observations on one's own body, enlightenment experiences, etc.) one simply cannot be absolutely sure that one is no longer dreaming. And that is why all absolute knowledge claims even by awakened people are unfounded. So the absolute claims of awakened people have to be considered as just as suspect as those of everybody else. And all claims of provisional knowledge by awakened people need to be validated just as all similar claims of everybody else. Of course those awakened people who are caught up in the illusion of belonging to the select few who know will flatly refuse to back up their claims by further validation. And that is why requests such as those of Still_Waters for validation are often ignored, diverted, or "answered" by remarks about the spiritual immaturity of those who dare to question the correctness of the utterances of the awakened.
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It is quite possible that the world as a whole has a total of zero energy, so in that case all that is needed are the laws of nature. The world could just start from nothing. Evolution than does the rest. Now Tao is the ancient Chinese concept corresponding to our laws of nature. So from that perspective Tao and not mind or consciousness could be the foundation of the world. Now where does Tao come from? We don't know. And that is the nice thing about (philosophical) Taoism, it doesn't loose itself in empty speculation about things that are beyond our understanding. The over-the-top claims to absolute knowledge of the Awoken as they are exemplified by some posts here on The Dao Bums are nicely tackled by Chuang tzu's story of the dream of the butterfly. One simply cannot know for sure that one has finally waken up. Maybe the Awoken are more asleep than the non-Awoken, who knows?
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When I suggested BatGap is was with the idea of the opportunity to hear now nearly 500 accounts of āordinaryā people that have Awoken. Time after time they explain in practically the same way what Steve, Dwai and myself have experienced. With slight variations these would be my exact words and Iām certain this is true for Dwai and it is easy to see from then on what is actually being said in so many teachings. In the batgap interviews many variations are discovered but there are quite a few underlying common element that lead to the awakening. And it is clear in their language if they have in fact Awakened - there a few in which they have not - but very few other than some where the interview was simply an interview with āan interesting personā. The negative reaction is a testament to just how much judgement is set off upon this stuff and how far off seekers are prior to Awakening. This is perfect š Students walk in and out of these teachings all day with solid rock walls of āunderstandingā and EXPECTATION. The wilfulness is thick and the ear wax like epoxy. - Steve mentions a perfect simple bond with a teacher where little is said - I have had two teachers in my path and my relationship was nearly identical to his words. My most recent current teacher speaks no English - it was is never needed. Michael80 shared this - without any reference to who wrote it: Awareness of Presence or "Transcendental Consciousness" is the experience of expanded alert awareness along with profound peace and silence, either in the environment in activity, or deep within during silent meditation. There can be the feeling of detachment from the body/mind. It is a fourth definite state of consciousness unlike waking, dream or sleep. It is a precursor to the actual shift to Self-remembrance. Transcendental Consciousness is being awake to the silent peace and stillness that is the true nature of the Self. There can be many degrees of intensity and various levels of witnessing in trancendental consciousness, but the clear recognition by the Self of the Self has not yet occurred. There are millions of people around the world today experiencing varying degrees of presence consciousness. ļ»æ States of Consciousness 'States of Consciousness' does not mean states of individual consciousness. It means states of Consciousness itself. Consciousness itself is an unbounded field of pure Awareness. There are distinct perspectivess of Consciousness of itself as it becomes more awake its total reality, and there are many levels of clarity of refined perception within each state. These states cannot be missed. Experience, knowledge, perception and reality are completely different in each, even though Consiousness always remains the same One Consciousness. Cosmic Consciousness or "Self Realization" is awakening to being Pure Consciousness itself. It is the first stage of Enlightenment. It is a very profound shift in your sense of being and existing, the sense of who you are. The sense of Self shifts from being the person you think you are, to being the unbounded field of Awareness itself in which the person and all perceptions exist. You discover that there is no separate individual sense of self at all. The separate individual self was an illusion that happened as a result of conditioning and the false identification with the individual body/mind. Your real Self has always been unbounded, infinite and free all along. ļ»æ It is not an altered state of Consciousness. It is Being Consciousness Itself -- what you really have always been. It is not a temporary experience; it is a natural, permanent state of being. The innermost self awakens to the unboundedness of its Self and finds itself to be the silent source of everything everywhere. Even though this feels like the final step and there is nowhere else to go, it is actually only the first step in the unfoldment of Consciousness to itself. ļ»æ Refined Perception in Cosmic Consciousness or "God Realization" is Consciousness' refined perception of its nature as the process of experiencing. It is the perception of the flow of divine intelligence responsible for all experience. The underlying mechanics of the process of creation is revealed. It is the experience of the flow of intelligence responsible for all thinking, feeling, perceiving, experiencing, and all form and phenomena everywhere in your entire field of perception. The cosmic dimension of the individual mind/body is revealed. It is a continually deepening process of refinement and unfoldment taking place perpetually within Consciousness, though experienced differently in each state. The shift to unity Consciousness and beyond can happen prior to the full unfoldment of the depth of experience of refined perception.ļ»æ Unity Consciousness or "Oneness" happens when the Self, the subject and unbounded underlying essence of all things, awakens to itself as being the objects and phenomena of experience on the surface of life. It is a transition from being the unbounded field in which everything thing is happening , to being everything everywhere in the range of perception and experience. "Consciousness is everything everywhere, and I am that Consciousness". The unbounded subject has remembered itself to also be all objects of perception. They are One. The unboundedness of the Self has entered into the mind, body, and environment. All objects in the surroundings, while remaining the same from the perspective of the senses, are experienced as my Self. The world is no longer an object in Consciousness. It is Consciousness itself. It is my Self. It is the oneness of experiencer, process of experiencing and objects of experience. All of the apparent boundaries in the world are found to be my own Consciousness in appearance. From this perspective, the world is experienced to be even more real, because it is constructed out of the material of Consciousness itself, out of my own unbounded Self. The environment is now seen as pure unmodified Consciousness in the guise of the objective modifications of body, world and universe. It is not that the world and universe are seen to be an illusion. The illusion is that the world and universe is an objcetive physical reality. It has always been Consciousness itself, my own Self, pure subjectivity. There is no longer any distinction between inner or outer. The outer is the inner, the inner is the outer. Everything everywhere is my Self. "I" am all that there is. Refined Perception Within Unity Consciousness or "Unity in God Consciousness" is a further refinement of perception from the perspective of being everything. Consciousness awakens, with further clarity, to the underlying mechanics of creation and experience. It awakens to the subtle mechanics of its own innate intelligence that is responsible for creating the appearance of all life everywhere. It is the same shift in perception mentioned above, to experiencing the refined cosmic dimension of the feelings, intellect, mind, body, personality, senses, and all objects of experience; but it is experienced from an entirely different perspective now, one of wholeness, of being all that is. It is experiencing the flow of finer flavours and layers of intelligence within the wholeness of Self. It is Consciousness awakening to its internal dynamics as the perpetual flow of itself experiencing itself. It is the experience of the ultimate reality of the depth of the Self, the totality of Consciousness, and it is all Divine. ļ»æ Beyond Consciousness or "Brahman Consciousness" is a perspective prior to Consciousness, prior to Intelligence and prior to existence itself. It is neither Self nor non-Self, neither Existence nor non-Existence, neither Being nor non-Being, neither Consciousness nor non-Consciousness. It is the clearest experience of Reality. Words like universe, multi-verse, Absolute, Totality, Self, God, Being, Presence, Pure Consciousness cannot touch it. It is beyond description. It is pure Nothingness. From this perspective; the body/mind, the world and the universe are not just an illusion, they have never even come into existence. The ultimate reality of something made from nothing, is nothing, not something. The word "nothing" does not do justice to the supreme peace, perfect equanimity, unlimited freedom and total knowledge that It is. It is truly indescribable. It is exclusively self-evident to itself alone. ļ»æ Refined Perception Beyond Consciousness or "Refined Brahman Consciousness" is a completely different perspective of the same refinement of perception that is perpetually happening in Consciousness. But, because it is prior to Consciousness itself, there is no perceiver, no perceiving and no perceptio in the same sense. It is perpetually swelling in all the same divine flavours and qualities of wholeness and love as experienced previously, only in a finer more exquisite delicacy and fullness, prior to differentiation or distinction. It is the subtle intentention within nothingness to know itself. It is Pure Divine Power. From this perspective, the effect--Consciousness itself, and the creative intelligence inherent in Consciousness which is responsible for the appearance of creation, is also uncaused; and as such, so too is all creation. It is beyond all understanding. Supreme Reality Another shift to an even deeper perspective occurs in this state when that Nothingness recognizes that divine power as its own pure Supreme Divinity that has been cloaked in the appearance of creation. That supreme divinity is the ultimate cause of all causes. It creates and appears as the sense of Being, Consciousness or Self; all divine creative intelligence, and all creation. It is pure divine radience. Refinement of perception of the universal body/mind continues in this state. Many of us here that have Awakened and not have considerable experience in the above. Some of us are far along in the above levels and know them well and without delusion. But talk of them on many levels is of no worth to the seeker and more often than not fills them with a sense that by careful reading they actually know something. My daily experiences are outlandish but Iāve become sick of words like awesome, incredible, immense, limitless, vastness, unbounded, etc etc etc - But I have no other words for this constant expansion and absurd energies. The first time I Awoke it knocked unconscious 3 other people in the room who only moments before were conversing with one another. The energies we absolutely beyond any slight previous comprehension and made a massive kundalini experience seem like peanuts by comparison and yet it was sustained in utter beauty and stillness. - It does nothing for a seeker to hear most of this stuff prior to Awakening. The basics of practice and the pointers to Awakening are the core of the teachings - they ARE the advanced stuff - (the secrets). The seekers have it backwards - they want to get past the basics and piece together in concept what is waiting for them. Nothing is waiting for āthemā but the death of āthem nessā
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shadow people- do they have to be negative ?
Owledge replied to Bruce Qi's topic in General Discussion
If you acknowledge that contents from your dream can bleed into the waking state on the transition, then you should understand your test doesn't work reliably with that. It's not like a projector burn-in. In the waking state dreams are called hallucinations. The stuff that is going on in both cases works with the same processes that allow you to perceive the world normally. Consider that everything you perceive has a portion of yourself in it. (The more you awaken, the more you may understand the gravity of this principle. Barriers start to fall away.)