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Yes, in Australia the aboriginal groups have land they fully control and they also have the legal right to access Government owned land under lease to mining companies, etc. Some of them are working toward self-sufficiency since some State Governments have decided they can no longer continue paying for water, power or phone-line access for the communities. Of course the politicians can find the money for their oversized salaries, superannuation and pensions. I have a dream of buying a few hundred acres of cheap land and randomly planting it with fruit trees and other edible plants and letting chickens run wild on it, as well as a big dam for ducks and yabbies. Then I'd build some small sheds around the place and then retire on it. Then I could just wander about, picking whatever was in season, scatter a few seeds, pick up a few eggs, catch the occasional chicken and yabby and sleep by a fire in good weather or the nearest shed in rain or cold weather. But I'd have to put a heap of money in a trust to pay for the annual rates and other Government expenses. I'd open it up to like-minded groups that want to do the same and hopefully start a new movement of people giving up a life of working for other people just to buy rubbish they don't need but everybody says they do; a life like Laozi and Zhuangzi describe. I live in a town where drug abuse and stupid violence are on the increase and I reckon a simpler lifestyle with less consumerism, and hence less money and more self-reliance, might just be the panacea. I also have a house on a few acres in a valley beside a creek, but unfortunately it gets two or three black frosts every July. It kills off the leaves of every plant and even the canetoads are snap frozen. That's not conducive to anything like self-sufficiency... Off topic, I know, but now that it's in writing my dream might come true, LOL!

Hi there Well for the most part of my life you could not say it was an escape as it happened spontaneously. I would sense something strange and automatically switch my state of consciousness. Mostly when sensing a presence in a house and trust me it was always accurate, up to a point where people were calling me to deal with presences they could no longer tolerate. For me, ordinary consciousness was an escape at that stage because my life became a living nightmare, literally. Whenever strong trauma had happened somewhere I would know all the details. I assure you I wished I could escape forever into "normal" life. It eventually toned down (those were my early years) Knowing what is out there and that it is virtually everywhere makes ordinary life comforting. When you speak about making something look real, think about what you view as reality. You know you had a dream and you say it is not real. Is that not a contradiction? You know for a fact that you experienced it. So where does it come from? Is there such a thing as the imagination when you are not conscious? Which thoughts are real and not real? If you did not invent it into being, is it not existing information? Even lucid dreaming has its limits. Some things are yours and others will not change no matter what you do in the dream. I am one of those people who believe everything is real so I am very careful of what I create and that is the value of halting thought when one can. That is also why not thinking can make me see or hear things. I create space for information that I did not invent so that what is truly there can be seen/heard. The more I silence myself, the more I hear my surroundings. I don't know where you draw the limits of trance, but for me being very still and mindful is the start of a trance. Like the state you are in when you relax on a rock in the forest and hear the birds sing. Nothing psychedelic but already enough to drift and forget your life.

Please don't make that association with me. As I mentioned about my chair. I can rationalize all by myself. I don't need any religion to tell me how to think. And no, I am not someone else's dream. I mean, really, who could imagine me? Too complex.

hey why to go in trance? isn't that some kind of escapism from the now? to go into another state of mind? The mind can induce a lot of things that could sound totally real... a simple example can be a dream and lucid dreams. And trance happens in consciousness while being awake and could feel totally real while it is just mind on another state of thoughts and experience. Thank you for sharing your experiences !! <3

I just have to expand on this. I can't tell you how deeply this has affected me. Please forgive me for breaking the flow of this thread by introducing a personal story, but I think it is really pertinent here. It has to do with Service. Prior to our move to Ohio from Ojai, California about 8 years ago, I was a regular at Alcoholics Anonymous meetings. I have been long time sober, it will be 35 years in December. Finding old-timers at AA meetings is somewhat of a rarity, and when you do find one, it is truly having a jewel in the room. Finding sobriety and beginning to work the inner dynamics of the 12 steps to recovery tends to place one's feet on this path that we are all on, here on this thread. When we moved to Ohio, I found that the meetings were a little too 'street' for my tastes, and we both stopped going. No harm done as far as our own sobriety, but I realized today, after 9th's post, that I have not been Of Service the way I used to be when I was going to meetings, giving back to the structure that had placed my feet on this path that leads to enlightenment. But it was after reading the above post that I realized just how much was missing from my life. My sense of purpose has been missing; yes, life has been good, I've been close to nature, I've been gardening, reading - but not giving back. It's as though all the blessings that were given to me by those who were there for me when I first got sober have been dammed up inside, not free flowing. I realized this the moment I read 9th's post. His words shot me like an arrow in the heart. I went down to the AA meeting house in town today, but there was nobody there, probably because it was July 4th. Because I didn't sleep well last night, I took a nap when I got back. I had an incredible lucid dream of my beautiful red Arabian horse, Tango, that I used to own and ride in Ojai. She had escaped her corral, the gate was open; but I heard her hoofbeats in the distance and sure enough she came running up to me, rubbing me with her chest. I could smell her in my dream; I could feel the warmth of her under my hand on her back. the funny thing is, she always hated having a bridle put on her. She would toss her head around and hated anybody touching her ears. But in my dream, my beautiful lucid dream, she put her head down and offered her head to me, actually opening her mouth for the bit to go in; I had no problem getting the strap over her ears, she gently allowed it. I just now realized that my horse is a representation of AA for me. She is my conveyance, my way to open the dam and let the Service return. The stage is all set for me - how simple! how wonderful! And for me to think that the meeting back here were 'too street' for my tastes? Please. Give me a break. It's not like I was any beautiful smelling rose when I walked through those doors 34 years ago. I am excited about this. I just want to go, sit there, allow healing presence, return to my roots. although I have thanked you in a PM, 9th, I thank you again here - for seeing what needed to be seen, and shooting an arrow that totally landed and hit its mark on the first shot. Service.

Correct - I am, therefore I think. At least you realize you are not the thoughts. The opposite would suggest that one can rise from nothing and set into nothing, even though nothing doesn't exist. Modern western philosophy is certainly a problem, as Descartes never realized that thought was just another sense. True consciousness is conscious of true things, false consciousness if conscious of false things. True consciousness it truly existent, false consciousness is falsely existent. This is why you are not the 6th consciousness of thought, because it's not true. It's only an abstraction designed to glue thoughts together and create a sense for continuity that is required for survival in the physical world. But you are not that as you yourself asserted. Identification is not a problem, but identification with illusions is were suffering arises from. I have stated multiple times that absolute truth is inaccessible for the 6 senses, but that doesn't mean it's inexpressible. Please remember - we are not saying what is true here, we are saying what isn't true, so we can surrender the illusion bit by bit. The lower 6 senses are in the past, because everything you register as input is after the fact, thus the lower 6 senses never perceive the present, if you understand this you will understand why they are deceivers. It's not difficult to define, you just don't know what it is. Consider this - if you are your mother's information, and your mother is her mother's information and so on, where do "You" start in all this? It's not a trick question. To say that the banana is part of you, but isn't you is to say that the elements that constitute you are not you. Thus you believe that you are a combination of elements, but you are not in any of those elements which means that somehow you arise from not you which is conceptually wrong. Maybe you, like scientists, believe that you are a system that is the sum of it's components, but cannot be reduced to its components, because the components outside of the system would behave differently. This is why I gave you the example about removing fingers and hands and limbs, because that dissipative system that the body appears to be, isn't you. Ha! We Taoists are not allowed to kill our self. We leave that in the hands of Tao. Sounds like a Christian who believes he/she is a Taoist. I am, therefore I think is the core of Buddhism and Taoism. It's simply the realization that awareness doesn't arise from matter. You are completely independent of thought and feelings. This is nothing but a product of thought. It's hard to believe that a person who is so full of beliefs, actually realized "I am, therefore I think". Finally! I love my ego = I don't want to wake up. To enjoy separation is to enjoy the dream. There is no such thing as spiritual atheist - an atheist is a belief in no god, spirituality is belief free. Plus you seem to believe that Tao is God which contradicts your other belief. Lol! You certainly trust your senses. Nagarjuna is disappointed. Yes! Yes! The only part you are missing is that true consciousness is conscious of true existence and false consciousness is conscious of false existence (illusions). Is all consciousness energy? What about the still consciousness? Energy is movement, so what about stillness? Think about it

I think the Tibetan perspective is interesting, although I think some of the language used in this video is disempowering--- there is definitely a "commoner vs. yogi/lama" dynamic going on there. Some one asked a lama why Westerners who have near death experiences don't experience the same experiences Tibetans report. The lama said the experiences only arise for practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism. Looking at NDEs through different cultures, they do happen differently to different people. Some might take this to mean that they are subjective experiences, but this need not be the only explanation. From a Buddhist POV, worlds arise according to our karmic habits. Which makes me wonder--- are people experiencing/creating the world that they expect? I mean, if you spend the day watching zombie movies, you are more likely to have a dream about zombies. Perhaps it is the same thing with death--- if we conditions ourselves throughout life to expect one thing or another, perhaps that is what manifests at the moment of death.

I just returned from a retreat on sleep yoga. I've also had training in dream yoga in the past. Our dreams and sleeping patterns are a reflection of what is occurring in our daily life. A day filled with anxiety, stress, exposure to electronic media, violent news, and so forth means a night of expression of all of that input. A few tips that could help your sleep experience - Prioritize basic healthy living including adequate hydration, wholesome nutrition, regular exercise, breathing exercises. Consider integrating a daily meditation practice - practice upon awakening and prior to retiring to sleep. Throughout your day, take frequent breaks in whatever you are doing. Sit (or stand) comfortably and quietly. Connect with your body and allow it to deeply rest in its stillness. Connect with your inner voice and allow it to deeply rest, listening only to the silence from which it arises. Connect with your heart/mind and allow it to open, resting deeply in the open space that allows all possibilities. Do this as often as possible. Do it particularly anytime something stimulates any sense of fear, anxiety, irritation, or desire. The idea is that the more we are able to abide during the day in a restful, quiet place, the more likely we are to bring that to our sleep and dreams. All of the advanced sleep and dream yoga practices are recommended to be done in a remote, quiet, and isolated setting for this reason. As the evening begins to descend, pay careful attention to how you feel in your body and mind. Notice the natural onset of fatigue, the feeling that you've done enough for the day. Avoid the temptation to ignore that and keep pushing yourself to do, think, and say more. Let go of all electronic media and stimulation when that initial fatigue descends. Avoid eating after this time, avoid vigorous exercise, drugs, and alcohol. Allow yourself to gradually wind down and feel openness in your body, speech, and mind. Create a sacred place to sleep. Remove all electronic devices from the room, if possible. If not possible, put them as far from your sleeping place as possible. Maybe decorate the room with images that are loving, supportive, and evoke a feeling of comfort and security if that feels right. Light a small night light if that helps or burn a little incense. As you retire for the night, feel the support and comfort of the sacred space. Feel that there are beings or forces that are there to offer their protection and will watch over you throughout the night. This could be beloved ancestors, deities, goddesses, anything that feels right to you. If you are one for prayer, say a prayer before bed. Ask for help in clearing obstacles to a restful sleep. Ask that you may be blessed with clear and supportive dreams. Ask that you may be relieved of the trials and tribulations of the day so that your sleep may be rejuvenating. As you lay in bed, continue to maintain a feeling of prayer and resting in a sacred space. Generate a sincere feeling of inner warmth, contentedness, and gratitude. As the endless thoughts arise, notice them, know that they will still be there and can be attended to when the time is right, and remind yourself that now is the time for freedom and rest. Allow yourself to gently enter into sleep with a feeling of stillness, silence, and spaciousness. I think one of the biggest obstacles to restful sleep is carrying all of our daily baggage into sleep with us. The above are just some suggestions, modify them in whatever way works for you. The key is to feel open, protected, and to let go of the daily and worldly troubles as we enter that time of our day when we, to use a mundane analogy, recharge our battery and reboot the system. May you be blessed with restful sleep and pleasant dreams. _/\_

Well 9th, you are actually right. Movement certainly doesn't stop with perceived death. That's why there is no such thing as life or death. It's just a process. Karl, you are not even making sense anymore. At which point does the dead body stop moving. Energy never stops. Dead things do change, thus things that do not change cannot be called dead. Energy is a function of work/movement, thus if there's no change, there's no energy. This is beyond your idea of life/death. Stop trying to find an example for the absolute reality in the dream. Are you saying that you are the body or the mind? The body is just accumulation of data. You see a banana on the table - if you say this is me, you are crazy, but if you eat the banana, 2 hours later it adds to the body. Now do you think it's you? Weren't you there before? What about the mind? You go to school, you study, you get a diploma. Now you say I am x the biologist with a perfect diploma. Are you the words in the text book or the diploma, weren't you there before the diploma? So, do you believe that you are what you accumulate? Then who accumulates it? Say you are the body, but the body is a dissipative system without a single absolute particle. Where is 'you' in that process? If you cut one finger off , will you be lost? If you cut off all your limbs, will you be lost? Plenty of people without limbs - same personality. So are you the brain then? People tend to insist that they are the brain even though there is no trace of self there either. Why would one prefer to believe that they are the brain is beyond me. Just another organ in the body, just a piece of meat that gets too much attention. The rest is a bourgeois low-level zen joke: That things somehow only temporary exist, so don't get attached to them and that's the greatest liberation... If you are true to that tradition just kill yourself for complete liberation. Why wait?

Some of your deductions were incorrect: "Change presupposes that something changes from one thing to another. This presupposes the law of identity." Things do not change. I explained this in a previous reply, but you are disregarding it. "A lot of people think that if nothing really exists, how can anything function? However, Nagarjuna said that it is precisely because everything does not really exist that everything functions. If everything were truly existent, existing in and of itself and thus being unchanging, things would not depend on anything. But then they could not interact with each other either because that entails change. Therefore, it is only due to everything changing all the time that interaction and functioning are possible." Thus whatever exists doesn't change, whatever changes doesn't exist. The rest of your deductions based on identity were also incorrect because they were based on the error explained above. Who is talking about the universe? The universe is not real... Again whatever exists doesn't change, whatever changes doesn't exist. Stop looking for the absolute within the dream. It's futile. This world, this life, this universe... It's a dream, time to wake up...

So basically you are saying, if nothing in the dream is real, then how do you know what is true in order to recognize it when you experience it, right? Well that's a great question. One way of realizing you are in the dream is by asking "what is a thing?". A lot of people think that if nothing really exists, how can anything function? However, Nagarjuna said that it is precisely because everything does not really exist that everything functions. If everything were truly existent, existing in and of itself and thus being unchanging, things would not depend on anything. But then they could not interact with each other either because that entails change. Therefore, it is only due to everything changing all the time that interaction and functioning are possible. Ponder on this for a moment... So this is basic logic that isn't pointing to what things are, but to what they aren't. You can play with it and try to prove it wrong, but you won't succeed (but please do try). Again we are not talking about what things are, but what they aren't. Since the lower 6 senses cannot comprehend emptiness the only thing we can do at this point is to recognize that we are not perceiving reality as it is. So if things in this dimension don't really exist then how can a self exist? Thus you realize that 1. either there's no self or 2. the self is not here. You must find out which one is true. However in both scenarios an idea that there is a true self here is ridiculous so you can recognize that your perception of what's going on is not real. The you that you think you are is not real. Basically you realize that you are not seeing truth because what you see cannot be truth by any definition. The only thing that is left is to surrender what is false, so only the truth is left at the end. "Truth, like gold, is to be obtained not by its growth, but by washing away from it all that is not gold." - Leo Tolstoy “The greatest enemy of knowledge is not ignorance, it is the illusion of knowledge” - Stephen Hawking Please read my words more carefully. I never said anywhere that the scientists have proof of truth. I only said that scientists know that the senses aren't perceiving reality. So basically they have proof of illusion and understand that what we perceive as real is not real. This is not proof of truth. I don't know what you are talking about, different approaches, cop outs... you are not paying attention is all. You seem to be looking for an example of truth in a dream world. Such goal is futile. As I explained the only thing we can do is to explain what is not true, in order to let go of it. There is no contradiction in what I'm saying. You are correct that when we are awake we are fully aware of what dreaming is all about. You seem to be looking for a truth in the dream that would suggest you are dreaming. Is that possible? The only thing you get in the dream is the realization that what you think is going on cannot be real, because basically you perceive things in the absence of things. Thus you don't know what truth is, but you know that whatever you perceive isn't truth. This is the beginning of the journey. So there is no true information in the dream state, there is only realization of lies. As I said multiple times already, it's not about earning and learning your way out of the dream, since nothing from the dream can propel you towards truth. It's about UN-learning what is false in order to uncover a truth. I never said that you can't know reality. I said that the you who you think you are (which is not real) cannot know reality. Drop your philosophies about this school of philosophy or that school of philosophy, this isn't about any school or approach. This is a simple regurgitation of what is obvious. You need to ask yourself the question - what is truth? Obviously truth is something that doesn't change, if it changes then it's not this or that, so you can't rely on it to make any conclusions. So knowing that truth doesn't change, and that everything you experience with the lower 6 senses is changing, the only obvious conclusion is that you aren't experiencing truth. Read this a few times until you grasp it. There are no contradictions here.

Clearly I'm not getting through to you. I say again, if nothing is real in this dream, then by what method can you prove a statement within the dream such as "recognising everything you see and think is falsehood..." I know exactly who I am, but it appears you can't know exactly who you are because of this dream you say you have woken from, but in which there were no methods to prove anything. What does 'see with your own authority" ? That sounds like a revelation to me. Revelations belong to the spiritual Mystics. It's interesting that you now cite 'scientists' as having some proof that you now depend upon to prove your argument, yet, you have admitted no proof is possible in this dream world. Are you scientists in the dream world or in this new space in this new reality ? You are of course now relying on the Mystics of muscle to support your ideology. This is simply the sophist approach and it's a common cop out for intrincisists that see their towers begin to topple. You believe whatever you want. All I'm saying is you should check your premise because they are conflicted. One or other must be right, not both. Either you are in a dream world in which no proof is possible, no statement means anything and no one exists, or you are not. When we are awake we are fully aware of the concept of dreaming. There is no point at which we confuse the two states. If you were in a dream state then where would the information arise from beyond the dream state to let you know you were living in one ? If the information came to you from the dream state then it's dream information anyway and even if you thought you woke up, you just woke up inside the same big 'ole dream. As soon as you begin ' I can't know reality, I can't prove anything' then you fall on your sword. You are left with divine revelation and sophist mumbling so about scientific proof that we can't have proof. You are saying 'I can't know anything is true, but I can know that this is true'. That's the contradiction and the flaw. This is why intrincisists get into circular arguments about 'revelations and Gods word being true' they cannot explain how they know it's true, except to say God is truth. It's true because it's true.

I exist, but I am not alive. The only one who believes is alive is the ego-consciousness. If you still think you are alive then you haven't "done that projector thing". Again this sounds peculiar, but in the present there is no movement and thus no life. "No life" doesn't mean death, it just means a reality beyond movement and change, beyond life and death altogether. The only reality actually. So basically you are asking - when you wake up, how do you know you are actually awake and not just gone crazy? That's a great question actually. This question arises because you do not know who you are, it comes from the mind, otherwise this question wouldn't arise. It's just not good enough to intellectually understand what you are. Statements like "I am consciousness" or "I am life" or "I am beyond life" - obviously it's not good enough. This is something that can't be practiced. You have to see it with your own authority. If you understand this, then you know that whatever answer I give you other than this one, won't be satisfactory. You seem to want to wake up from a dream but take the dream with you as well - that is impossible. Forget about the dream, surrender it altogether. And again I don't hold beliefs about what is true. Everything I say is simply a regurgitation of the absolute truth that "whatever changes is not something that doesn't change". The only reason you are confused is because you enjoy your beliefs because they are giving your consolation and what I am saying is threatening those beliefs - that you are life, that you are what you see or hear. Even scientists know at this point that the senses do not provide an actual picture of reality so why are you still struggling? “Recognize that everything you see and think is a falsehood, an illusion, a veil over the truth” - Lao Tzu. When you said "you can't believe anything you hear or see in this video game world" you were exactly right! Waking up is not about making sense of the dream/video game. It's about realizing it's false and awakening to your true nature. Once you wake up you will experience all of what I am saying with absolute certainty. The ego-consciousness is not part of you, it's a simulation. It's something like an onboard computer of your body vehicle. Read this carefully a few times: "The ego [sciential consciousness of the 6th sense of thought] uses the body to conspire against your mind [sapiential consciousness beyond the 6 senses], and because the ego realizes that its "enemy" [the sapiential mind] can end them both [ego and body] merely by recognizing that they are not part of you [the sapiential mind, your Unborn Awareness]; they join in the attack together. This is perhaps the strangest perception of all, if you consider what it really involves. The ego, which is not real, attempts to persuade the mind, which is real, that the mind is ego's learning device, and further, that the body is more real than the mind is. No one in [his or her] right mind could possibly believe this, and no one in [his or her] right mind does believe it." A Course In Miracles 6 IV 5. So it's the other way around - until you let go of it, you won't be complete. Once you wake up, life doesn't matter anymore. You can maintain the body if you want to teach other people, but you can also leave the body if you want. There is no God.

What are you talking about? Gautama's teachings are about surrendering the illusion and waking up from the dream. It's not about "earning and learning" your way out of suffering as many Buddhists seem to believe. Gautama himself dismissed the illusion as meaningless many times and did not harbor relative compassion. This world that you describe doesn't exist. This discussion doesn't exist. We are not even here. So studying the illusion may increase your odds of survival, but that doesn't make the you that you think you are, real. From your post it seems that you don't understand the difference between relative and absolute truth. You are talking about relative truths which are not actually truths. Relative honesty is dishonesty. The only truths are absolute and are synonymous with reality. 1. Yes, Milarepa is pretty cool. This quote points to the root of suffering. 2. There is no death, but there is no life either. Forget about oneness. Saraha said, “He who thinks of mind in terms of one or many casts away the light and enters delusion.” Although this term "non-duality" has a variety of meanings and uses, this commentary will address three (3). Duality is a perspective that the universe is essentially an arrangement of binary oppositions, such as the electromagnetic spectrum which contains all phenomena. By that definition, non-duality would either be 1. that which was beyond the duality of the electromagnetic spectrum, or 2. a fantasy belief that the condition of duality can somehow merge with an Unconditional Oneness. Yes, one could intellectualize that duality is a the diversification out of Oneness, and in a Taoist sense it is. However, this can be confusing, because many people often miss the fact that Oneness does not exist without Duality. There is no Center without a Boundary, no Here without a There, no Yin/Yang without a One. If we are to transcend the struggles of separateness, of useless happiness and suffering, and Birth the Human Beingness beyond sentience, there must be a letting go of what is, and is not us. We are Light; however, very few understand what that is pointing to. It doesn't happen to you. You are not the you that you think you are, feel you are, analyze you are. Whatever changes is not true. That which lives and dies is not true. Your suffering is caused by your desire for things to be other than they are. You are not here, you are not your body or mind, you are not life, you are not energy - all stuffs that change constantly. Just because it hurts when the body loses a limb, doesn't mean that that is you. Wake up before the body dies, that's what you are here for.

If you don't know what is substantial (as you yourself admit), then your judgment on what is substantial is based on a lie. It is true that these statements do not have a living context, because life is only real in your imagination. Your idea of truth is derived from experiencing the lower 6 senses - sight, hearing, smell, taste, touch, brain organ. If real is what you can feel, smell, taste and see, then 'real' is simply electrical signals interpreted by your brain. If someone asks you "Where am I" you are most likely going to point at her and declare "You are over there by the sign post", but remember, that is only an interpretation of light that occurs in your brain organ. The actual world you cherish does not exist outside. Therefore the fear you feel is not any different than the fear you feel during a nightmare. As for what is possible and what isn't possible - please start with this - What I know by experience I know, what I don't know, I simply don't know. Whatever you think is possible is derived from not knowing what's true, so it's not valuable. The only thing that's impossible is for lies to become truth. [today’s] therapeutic culture [says] “wait a minute. you’re saying there are higher potentials, so does that mean I’m lower? because that can’t be right”. All of a sudden it implied a judgment, and nobody’s allowed to be higher because that means someone else is going to be lower. And you’re not allowed to call anybody lower; therefore nobody’s allowed to be higher… So the Human Potential movement got derailed and was replaced by this therapeutic self-expression, self-acceptance movement.” Does that sound familiar? As for reaction, I'm quite familiar with this lie - please try to understand this - if something changes then it's not what you think it is, it's just changing. To start labeling processes as things is equal to start seeing faces in a flowing river. And reaction requires interaction, interaction implies change, thus whatever you think is reacting is not an actual thing. For a thing to actually exist, it would have to be still and unchanging. This contradiction between the senses and truth only shows that the lower 6 senses are incapable of recognizing truth, not the other way around. “if you could realize that there is no connection between your senses and the outside world, you would be liberated on the spot” -Baizhang, Eighth century Chinese Zen teacher. Thus an awareness should arise, an awareness that confirms you are living in a dream world. The only thing left is to decide whether you want to stay in the dream or wake up. Ponder on this until you understand it.

An absolute truth is that there are no absolute things in time, and thus no things at all in time. Things exist only outside of time, within time "form is emptiness and emptiness is form". How am I reacting to the dream? Reaction means change, change means lie. If something is reacting, it's not real. If someone is reacting, they are not real.

What absolute truths have you discovered? Can you describe or explain any of them without resorting to quotes and stories and ideas from other people? If the dream is not true, why do you react to it?

What is truth? Although there are many relative truths, such as mathematical truth, pragmatic truth, personal truth, truth by consensus, etc. Relative truths are obscurative truths which obscure absolute truth. Of course, those who have not realized an absolute truth, will generally deny that absolute truth exists, which is silly even from a conceptual point of view, because if there was no absolute truth, then the absolute truth would be absolutely nothing, and thus an absolute truth. Generally speaking an absolute truth is something that doesn't change and something that cannot be further simplified. Why do you care? Why did Neo want out of the Matrix? How can you speak it? "Truth, like gold, is to be obtained not by its growth, but by washing away from it all that is not gold." - Leo Tolstoy Simply put, truth is inaccessible for the 6 senses, but not inexpressible. We start by pointing out what is not true. Does it even matter? Well, it's certainly not a crime to believe in illusions and it's certainly not a crime to be limited. If you want truth go for it, if you like the dream, keep dreaming.

I'd like to expand on Rigdzin Trinley's earlier comments. I would like to express my hope that we all look at ourselves a little more closely and nakedly and be a little more realistic and grounded. Of course we all have our own words, that's what we're typing. They may be an illusion but that is irrelevant, they are how we communicate, they impact our lives and emotions. The chance of any of us experiencing rainbow body is so far fetched as to be a joke. It's fine to work towards it but there are so many steps along the way that can enrich our lives and the lives of others it is sad to see folks ignore the beauty of the path. Of course we all experience localized mind and awareness. It's fine to speak and dream of the absolute and those of us fortunate enough even get glimpses of it from time to time. But to deny our relative, day to day life is to live in a fantasy - that is not what spirituality is about. These practices are absolutely marvelous and transformative when we practice them and apply them in concrete and practical ways in our daily lives; but when we get wrapped up in our intellectual projections and ego games like I see happening here, they're worse than doing nothing. This is precisely why they were kept secret for so long. Sorry for the rant but we need to get off of our ego trips and be real people and relate to one another with respect and compassion. Otherwise this is all a complete waste of time and energy. And don't think I consider myself better than anyone else - I'm guilty of all of the above but I am aware and working on it. I hope you will join me. Peace

That's exactly why in some traditions the importance of dream practice is emphasised, as the process of falling asleep is seen to be similar to dying.

CT, I am in no way trying to be rude to people. But I am trying to churn up some emotions and dialogue. Your are right. The Internet sucks because you can't see the other guy's face...you can't read his body language. You couldn't see me, but I was laughing at some of the things I was typing on the site where you took offense with me. If you look back maybe two posts on that site, someone was ripping on me. I was not a happy camper at that point. One thing I learned growing up in a tough neigborhood, is don't let anyone get over on you. Nowadays, I use my mind and words. Some of it is passive/aggressive, some of is just plain straight forward. Depends on who my audience is. It will sting either way. Your not avoiding me and my topic was a challenge for me, so I took a moment and expressed my discontent. The outcome: you engaged. It is what it is. I'm not surprised that you came back with a response. Most people want to defend themselves if they have any kind of self respect. My second thought was that you might continue to track my posts. I was hoping that you would see all sides of me. Steve, in my private practice as an Licensed Clinical Professional Counselor, dream work can be part of the client's treatment plan. I also use Bradshaw's Championing the Inner Child technique for healing trauma patients...those that have sexual/emotional/physical abuse histories. And CT, I am everyday people. I am a blue collar kind of guy. I grew up blue collar. Went to school on the G.I. for both undergrad and postgrad. I go to the outhouse like everyone else. I just have no fear of death because I don't have anything to regret or close up. I just get up and live. When it is my time...its my time. Besides, my ashes are going to be dropped right under an old tree so that I will live forever. Peace Peace

Death. On the following night, I wandered to the northern land and found myself under a gray sky in misty-hazy cool-moist air. I strive to those lowlands where the weak currents, flashing in broad mirrors, stream toward the sea, where all haste of flowing becomes more and more dampened, and where all power and all striving unites with the immeasurable extent of the sea. The trees become sparse, wide swamp meadows accompany the still, murky water, the horizon is unending and lonely, draped by gray clouds. Slowly, with restrained breath, and with the great and anxious expectation of one gliding downward wildly on the foam and pouring himself into endlessness, I follow my brother, the sea. It flows softly and almost imperceptibly, and yet we continually approach the supreme embrace, entering the womb of the source, the boundless expansion and immeasurable depths. Lower yellow hills rise there. A broad dead lake widens at their feet. We wander along the hills quietly and they open up to a dusky, unspeakably remote horizon, where the sky and the sea are fused into infinity. Someone is standing there, on the last dune. He is wearing a black wrinkled coat; he stands motionless and looks into the distance. I go up to him-he is gaunt and with a deeply serious look in his eyes. I say to him: "Let me stand beside you for a while, dark one. I recognized you from afar. There is only one who stands this way, so solitary and at the last corner of the world." He answered: "Stranger, you may well stand by me, if it is not too cold for you. As you can see, I am cold and my heart has never beaten." "I know, you are ice and the end; you are the cold silence of the stones; and you are the highest snow on the mountains and the most extreme frost of outer space. I must feel this and that's why I stand near you." "What leads you here to me, you living matter? The living are never guests here. Well, they all flow past here sadly in dense crowds, all those above in the land of the clear day who have taken their departure, never to return again. But the living never come here. What do you seek here?" "My strange and unexpected path led me here as I happily followed the way of the living stream. And thus I found you. I gather this is your place, your rightful place?" "Yes, here it leads into the undifferentiable, where none is equal or unequal, but all are one with one another. Do you see what approaches there?" "I see something like a darkness of clouds, swimming toward us on the tide." "Look more closely; what do you recognize?" "I see densely pressed multitudes of men, old men, women, and children. Between them I see horses, oxen and smaller animals, a cloud of insects swarms around the multitude, a forest swims near, innumerable faded flowers, an utterly dead summer. They are already near; how stiff and cool they all look, their feet do not move, no noise sounds from their closed ranks. They are clasping themselves rigidly with their hands and arms; they are gazing beyond and pay us no heed -they are all flowing past in an enormous stream. Dark one, this vision is awful." "You wanted to stay by me, so get hold of yourself. Look!" I see: "The first rows have reached the point where the surf and the stream flow together violently. And it looks as if a wave of air were confronting the stream of the dead together with the surging sea, whirling them up high, scattering them in black scraps, and dissolving them in murky clouds of mist. Wave after wave approaches, and ever new droves dissolve into black air. Dark one, tell me, is this the end?" "Look!" The dark sea breaks heavily-a reddish glow spreads out in it-it is like blood -a sea of blood foams at my feet-the depths of the sea glow-how strange I feel-am I suspended by my feet? Is it the sea or is it the sky? Blood and fire mix themselves together in a ball-red light erupts from its smoky shroud-a new sun escapes from the bloody sea, and rolls gleamingly toward the uttermost depths-it disappears under my feet. I look around me, I am all alone. Night has fallen. What did Ammonius say? Night is the time of silence. I looked around me and I saw that the solitude expanded into the immeasurable, and pierced me with horrible coldness. The sun still glowed in me, but I could feel myself stepping into the great shadow. I follow the stream that makes its way into the depths, slowly and unperturbed, into the depths of what is to come. And thus I went out in that night (it was the second night of the year 1914), and anxious expectation filled me. I went out to embrace the future. The path was wide and what was to come was awful. It was the enormous dying, a sea of blood. From it the new sun arose, awful and a reversal of that which we call day. We have seized the darkness and its sun will shine above us, bloody and burning like a great downfall. When I comprehended my darkness, a truly magnificent night came over me and my dream plunged me into the depths of the millennia, and from it my phoenix ascended. * But what happened to my day? Torches were kindled, bloody anger and disputes erupted. As darkness seized the world, the terrible war arose and the darkness destroyed the light of the world, since it was incomprehensible to the darkness and good for nothing anymore. And so we had to taste Hell. I saw which vices the virtues of this time changed into, how your mildness became hard, your goodness became brutality; your love became hate, and your understanding became madness. Why did you want to comprehend the darkness! But you had to or else it would have seized you. Happy the man who anticipates this grasp. Did you ever think of the evil in you? Oh, you spoke of it, you mentioned it, and you confessed it smilingly; as a generally human vice, or a recurring misunderstanding. But did you know what evil is, and that it stands precisely right behind your virtues, that it is also your virtues themselves, as their inevitable substance?! You locked Satan in the abyss for a millennium, and when the millennium had passed, you laughed at him, since he had become a children's fairy tale. But if the dreadful great one raises his head, the world winces. The most extreme coldness draws near. With horror you see that you are defenseless, and that the army of your vices falls powerless to its knees. With the power of daimons, you seize the evil, and your virtues cross over to him. You are completely alone in this struggle, since your Gods have become deaf. You do not know which devils are greater, your vices, or your virtues. But of one thing you are certain, that virtues and vices are brothers. We need the coldness of death to see clearly. Life wants to live and to die, to begin and to end. You are not forced to live eternally; but you can also die, since there is a will in you for both. Life and death must strike a balance in your existence. Today's men need a large slice of death, since too much incorrectness lives in them, and too much correctness died in them. What stays in balance is correct, what disturbs balance is incorrect. But if balance has been attained, then that which preserves it is incorrect and that which disturbs it is correct. Balance is at once life and death. For the completion of life a balance with death is fitting. If I accept death, then my tree greens, since dying increases life. If I plunge into the death encompassing the world, then my buds break open. How much our life needs death! Joy at the smallest things comes to you only when you have accepted death. But if you look out greedily for all that you could still live, then nothing is great enough for your pleasure, and the smallest things that continue to surround you are no longer a joy. Therefore I behold death, since it teaches me how to live. If you accept death, it is altogether like a frosty night and an anxious misgiving, but a frosty night in a vineyard full of sweet grapes. You will soon take pleasure in your wealth. Death ripens. One needs death to be able to harvest the fruit. Without death, life would be meaningless, since the long-lasting rises again and denies its own meaning. To be, and to enjoy your being, you need death, and limitation enables you to fulfill your being. When I see the lamentation and nonsense of the earth and consequently enter death with a covered head, then everything I see will indeed turn to ice. But in the shadow world the other rises, the red sun. It rises secretly and unexpectedly, and my world revolves like a satanic apparition. I suspect blood and murder. Blood and murder alone are still exalted, and have their own peculiar beauty; one can assume the beauty of bloody acts of violence. But it is the unacceptable, the awfully repulsive, that which I have forever rejected that rises in me. For if the wretchedness and poverty of this life ends, another life begins in what is opposed to me. This is opposed to such an extent that I cannot conceive it. For it is opposed not according to the laws of reason, but thoroughly and according to its own nature. Yes, it is not only opposed, but repulsive, invisibly and cruelly repulsive, something that takes my breath away, that drains the power from my muscles, that confuses my senses, stings me poisonously from behind in the heel, and always strikes just where I did not suspect I possessed a vulnerable spot. It does not confront me like a strong enemy, manly and dangerously, but I perish on a dung heap, while peaceful chickens cackle around me, amazedly and mindlessly laying their eggs. A dog passes, lifts his leg over me, then trots off calmly. I curse the hour of my birth seven times, and if I do not choose to kill myself on the spot, I prepare to experience the hour of my second birth. The ancients said: Inter faeces et urinas nascimur. For three nights I was assaulted by the horrors of birth. On the third night, junglelike laughter pealed forth, for which nothing is too simple. Then life began to stir again.

I don't really subscribe to a particular view of what occurs or is present after death and before life. I would like to share, however, that I have had experiences in sleep and dream that correspond quite accurately to states and experiences that are described by the Bönpos and Buddhists as occurring in the Bardo. While I still tend not to say I believe this or that about what is present beyond this life, I find it very interesting and compelling and it has reinforced for me the value of sleep and dream work in my personal practices.

If the aliens were guiding evolution and so forth, Im sure there would be some sort of "prime directive" type situation as well. For those unfamiliar, its a term from Star Trek that refers to the principle of not interfering with a civilization and giving them interstellar technology until they have developed it themselves - and also there is stuff about revealing their identities and so on - basically they have to keep everything secret. Its also worth noting that in star trek, earth has become a utopia - there is no money, nobody works except on things they want to work on, there is no war, no violence, etc. and so forth. Looking at it from a natural perspective, it would be the situation where the parent is absolutely needed when the child is an infant, and there would be a great amount of direct effort there. However when the child becomes a teenager and on, they are expected to strike out on their own and become an adult. If mommy and daddy are always doing everything for you, you wont gain any experience, skill, knowledge, understanding and so on for yourself. Of course, aliens guiding evolution is a different situation but some of the principles would be the same. Looking at it from a theoretical perspective, there may be a need for intelligent life of a certain coherent type. If a species is able to come together in a certain unified way, it may have a certain value in regards to a universal community of life. If a species is NOT able to unify in such a way, its not just as if they would serve no purpose - this actually may have a detrimental effect and therefore would be heavily guarded against. Depending on the nature of these needs in regards to the universal community of life, there may be a certain time table involved which would require certain kinds of intervention at certain key points in a species development. These are a few theoretical ideas from a neutral perspective. From (what may be called) a gnostic influenced perspective, you could have an idea where certain species may produce certain materials in certain conditions, and therefore we would be guided into those conditions in order to produce these materials which would then be harvested by the aliens - and in general this would involve cultivation of mass suffering, ignorance and so forth - basically the generation and release of intense psychic energy as food or fuel source. Its worth noting that this principle is the basis of the prehistoric idea of ritual sacrifice (of animals, people, etc.). It seems modern people may think of ancient ritual sacrifice as some weird symbolic act, but no - these ancient people were performing an energetic act... ritual sacrifice is an energy working. Its not just symbolic. And of course there may be a contentious universal community of life where different principles are opposed to another, and therefore multiple kinds of intervention situations may be happening at the same time. This seems likely from our current human perspective - but it must be kept in mind that currently, humanity is very very VERY far from being in a "perfect" place to explore the universe, let alone being a utopia in itself and having a unified global community. So its worth keeping in mind the influence of the human mind on all these proceedings. There are also countless different species of aliens of a sort which we cannot ever possibly dream of, as we have absolutely no frame of reference for the physical characteristics of alternate dimensions where the laws of physics are completely different.

I selectively decide too. Maybe our heart draws us to things we can actually do something about. I don't look for it either - and I think there's really something to the karmic sense of all of it. If we approach it from the mindset that we are all A Manifester of our own conditions, then this would follow suit. When you said 'if a healer cannot heal, should they just give up?' I think I'm discovering that I wasn't very effective at the beginning of this, but that my nature kept me trying. Maybe because of an overabundance of pain I experienced in my younger years. I find that one little success breeds a little confidence that it actually may be working - although one never really knows if it actually is working or not. And the more confidence we have in ourself as a healer, maybe the more effective we become because doubt does not get in the way. I don't know. The kundalini coming out of the ground was a real affirmation for both Joe and I. After that happened (in the healing of Lorena described above) I knew there was truly something to the opening and closing of the fabric of time and dedicating a time and space to the event. The intent, and putting the intent into action through what I'm calling a child's mind. The nagual don Juan Mateus (Castaneda) would tell him 'sometimes you get to see the outcome, sometimes you don't' (referring to healing others). And who really knows what just our aura does for those around us, if we are in a balanced and joyful frame of mind? We really can't know that either, and yet I think we all agree that there are those who make you feel like you're being held to your mother's bosom just by their peaceful presence. The 'space' we speak of here, as Steve would say. Allowing others the space to heal. And perhaps the greatest form of healing, in the sense that Dawei speaks of, is the acceptance of the outcome, particularly if that outcome is death. To have the fortune of helping someone cross over into death is something not easily forgotten - and what a beautiful gift it is to both the person dying and the person sitting with them. To have helped my father cross over is one of the greatest gifts I could have received, and I know that it eased him greatly, particularly given the tough nature of our relationship over the years. The forgiveness was mutual, and all the stuff from all the years was just not important any more. And Joe was present when Mo, our friend with cancer all throughout his body, took his last breath. Joe was seated at Mo's head and talked Mo through the last breath - not to be afraid of it. That was an amazing set of circumstances having to do with timing, etc., which I won't go into here. But a true shamanic moment that Joe will never forget, and the greatest gift that he could have given his friend. Perhaps both are healed during moments like that. I just follow the desires of my heart in this stuff, that's all - and sort of make it up as I go along. I think the biggest point to be made in this whole thread is that with practice (and not being afraid to do it) we seem to get better at it. There's also nothing fixed in cement with any of this - just follow the dictates of the heart. Try to figure out what the body is trying to say with the malady - life seems to communicate in puns and riddles and turns of phrases. These can all be figured into the triangulation. And I've found that the answers to the riddle are most often in the forefront of my mind when I first wake up in the morning, if I've been thinking about why the illness is manifesting. It's happened almost every time, even if I can't remember the dream. Somehow it aligns during the night and presents the answer in the morning. Everything can be used in the triangulation. To see where a person's heart is is sometimes as simple as seeing what they have collected around them, what they treasure. I have another situation going right now where my cousin's heart is breaking because there have been two new grandparents that have 'moved into her turf' with the grandkids (her son recently remarried and his new wife's parents are over there all the time bringing the kids presents). These kids are the crown jewels of my cousins heart, and yet she feels like she's losing these kids to these new people. She is manifesting 'invasion' all over the place, duplicating the invasion of the new grandparents - from infection in the body, to actually being burglarized in her home. She sort of wants to die right now, she is so upset that she's being left out in the cold (in her mind). she is demonstrating a 'wasting syndrome' right now, mysteriously losing her appetite and losing much weight. Needless to say, I'm doing what I can there, but the jury is out on that one. Can't do much if the desire to live isn't there any more.