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'Tricks' . The mind loves tricks , so we 'trick the mind' . Its one of the two main ways of meditation (keeping the mind fixed on what the will requires) . But trick may not be the right word. One way is to meditate 'on nothing' or one thing. This is hard for many minds, so we set up an environment where, what can distract us, brings us back to our central theme . Eg. If the invocation is of Venus, the temple (or surrounds) are all in the 'field' of Venus. There is the invocation itself, which keeps the 'mind/mouth' busy. If the eyes wander there may be a statue or image of Venus on the altar, the incense should be of Venus, any music should be 'Venusian', the tools used , for Venus. Any colours, jewels, etc. of Venus, and so on. Sometimes when learning a ritual, cards, script or images might be posted at each quarter ( for remembrance and transition from using a written script ) . Generally the mind must also be persuaded . It needs to function in its right hierarchy; mind should NOT be 'running the show' , it is however a valuable tool. 'Ether' - 'Spirit' . Fire - Will Water - feelings, emotions, psychological drives, the unconscious, etc. Air - mind and intellect, reason , etc. Earth - Physical body . With most of us, we function like this factory ; the owner is away, so is the manager . The foreman is in a panic, trying to do his job and direct everyone and run the office, take orders, do the books etc. Dont try to stop him, he will get uppity, even rebellious. What is needed is the psychological equivalent of the owner and manager getting their act together and turning up and persuading the foreman (mind) that, although they are very valuable and things can not run without them, now, they can return to their rightful place and function properly ( well done ! we cant do without you mind ! ) . So, keeping the elemental hierarchy in order will help : 'Spirit' ( another complex rave, for now I will call it 'the origin' ) brings in a 'concept', fire / will implements it in the system, water 'feelings' see how it sits there , we might even run it through our unconscious ( 'sleep on it' ) , air / mind analyses it and decides if it is viable, and how best to achieve it, and lastly earth / physical body manifests it (otherwise it was just a 'pipe dream' ). Trouble is most of us have a confused concept of spirit, suppressed or misdirected will and unruly or damaged emotions and psychological drives, so the mind is thrust to the forefront . Anywayz, enough for now ..... where you able to maintain your focus through all of this ?

Actually, the whole verse is interesting but that particular passage caught my attention. In reading "Journey of Souls" by Michael Newton, his conclusions include the possibility that there may be various levels of creation with not-so-perfect souls-in-training creating some universes just as we ourselves create dream universes. My spiritual teacher spoke cryptically at first about "time within time". There is a story from the Yoga Vashistha which talks about worlds within worlds. The Christian Jesuit mystic Teillard de Chardin spoke about a matrix of worlds, both hierarchical and parallel. Before reading any of the above, my own visually-oriented meditations led me to the same conclusion though I readily concede that those meditations were unexpected revelations "outside the box" (so to speak) at first. That is when my spiritual mentor started to "go there" and speak on such subjects. Those are my thoughts on verse 11. I am starting to tire of the more mundane "of course" discussions and participate in them less and less. The part about "when you were one you became two" seems somewhat clear and more conventional than the rest and that's why I didn't comment on that part of the verse. Also, Jesus once said cryptically "let the dead bury the dead" and my sense is that he was talking about those who are dead to eternal life. Hence, the rest of the verse did not capture my imagination sufficiently to introduce it as a topic for discussion. Parts of the verse just seemed conventionally clear while the part that I quoted is not often discussed and hence I introduced the subject.

You're showing a picture of actors, not soldiers. They literally have just had there hair and make up done. The movie was probably 2 hours or less, lots of action. The reality of war/soldering is long hours/months/years of drudgery and monotony, some scary scenarios a fraction of the time. Being told what to do, when to do it, pretty much 24/7. I assume the dream of many soldiers/grunts after awhile is an office job, going home to friends and family by 5:00 and getting back control of there life. Often its the camaraderie, youth, and having a single over riding cause that soldiers miss. I suppose the alternative to joining an army is to find a cause you're passionate about, and put in the time and sacrifice. I respect our armed services but don't glamorize it. I had a couple friends in the Navy, father in law was Air Force, my dad's told me stories about basic training.

@ Nungali Calling everything a dream makes it impossible to discuss the psychological and practical problems of losing one's ability to differentiate between sense perceptions and dreams or hallucinatory images.

Well all this uncertainty seems to be helping the Brexiteers camp as more people seem to be losing faith in the government to do anything other than serve buSINess! You get people being interviewed about how it's going to effect their buSINess and most are cherry picked to tell a story of doom and gloom if we leave without a deal. Of course some buSINess are looking forward to trading with the rest of the planet but we don't hear much from them, strange that! So let's have no doubt that it's big buSINess that will loose especially CEO's that have been paid off over the years with ginormous bonuses. We also have the unknown aspect of how many MP's are being blackmailed or leaned on financially to tow the line! The media seems really biased towards remain which again smacks of dodgy goings on. Where's the daily positives of leaving and trading with the rest of the world? OK so Jeremy Hunt is now standing up saying a no deal Brexit is nothing to fear but he's doing this while saying I want to be PM! Bonkers!! Well at least he's got bigger balls than Boris the tosser! It's like a bad dream as this whole process should have been fairly easy. If nothing else the scum have outed themselves and won't be forgotten very soon.

I thought I'd post about my mid-day meditation, a few times I stopped hearing the noises around me and felt very consumed in mindlessnes. I sat with my legs crosses, my back ended up resting on the wall behind me. By the time I was done, a section of my back felt like cold metal, as if it were asleep, yet very cold. I laid down on my stomach and began to fall asleep. Within 10 minutes I had a crazy tunnel of dreams, and very profound feelings of waking up. The beginning of the dream was normal but as I started to realize it was a dream I'd "Wake up". Only I was still dreaming, I believe I woke up at least 4 times in my dream and realized i was still dreaming after things around my house seemed to be out of order. It was VERY interesting, it felt as if I had woke up and stretched and went down stairs as if I had actually woke up. When I noticed I was still dreaming when about 90 Mexican people were in the street holding my car above them in the air. That one actually scared me a bit so i thought FOR SURE that i had actually woken up after that one. So... in the dream I woke up and the clock said 5 oclock, i started to panic (I don't panic nearly as much as i used to) i started checking my phone to see if my boss had been calling me and there was no missed calls, thats when i actually opened my eyes. I looked at the clock and only 10 minutes had passed but it felt as if i had left my body and went into a new reality, i experienced what felt like 30 real minutes, at least, in less than 10. It's something I'll never forget, and I'm grateful that I experienced it. - I'm interested to see if you guys agree with my speculation... I feel like my back resting against the wall may have blocked some sort of vital circulation, oh well, hope you enjoyed my post.

Mixing up (dream)images from the unconscious and perceptions from the physical world leading to existential fear, derealization and eventually psychosis.

I think it's critical that you understand that a box that has been emptied of junk is not therefore full of light, and before you know it the junk is back in the box. And also that you can't wash with dirty water. It's really critical you understand this. Mostly people doing such practices are more like learning basic things about themselves and orientation withing themselves but nothing more. Light is not of this world but held within beings who have invoked it on their journey. It is an energetic transmission of purity from outside of this universe. Okay many big words but just to explain ... it is of much higher frequency and self-recognition than the stuff ot this universe. This is why spending time in Holy Company is essential then you just feel it in the teacher, later you feel it in you because you start vibrating at that frequency and then you cultivate that part of you that has become active. It is also possible to receive transmission from books or photos of teachers and so on ... as long as you have at least a little bit active inside you. You have to be ready and mature in your life as well otherwise you won't really try, surrender, or open. You can for instance look at a picture of Ramana Maharshi or Ramakrishna and feel their Light and pull it inside you, or vibrate with the picture and so on. The halo is the higher being body that is vibrating at much higher level, therefore it is a map. Same thing happens in the Dantien if that is your route, when listening to TTC try to feel the state Laozi must have been in when writing such things, feel the state itself of the valley, in the belly. And one has to recognise the awakened identity either in Consciousness (in the head) or if you are taoist then in the belly, hence talk of the of the little man in the belly .... but just feel that when breathing from the belly, sit with it and feel that "I" am down there, like you are looking at the world from the belly. So with respect to Jung, I don't mind what he is doing ... but they don't really know what they are doing ... that's why they drift into poetry at the end. Where spirituality is using much more accurate techniques to awaken and truly the spiritual understanding of what is inside is vastly greater than psychology. But psychology represents an attempt to awaken the human being so it is in a way advanced, but when it drifts into dream analysis and so on ... it's just churning rubbish. The value of psychology is to be a conscious person, who is conscious in his life, present, clear in the mind and so on, the awakening of the person. Probably they drift into dreams stuff because they wish to also work on the subconscious, and they don't know how better to do it. It's not bad just very expensive an time consuming and impractical for many people. Sorry slightly ranty, a lot of different things here.

"Typically, the freedom and peace comes first and the bliss a little later." Many years ago, I had a taste of 'peace', I found my way from feeling particularly miserable to feeling the peace stage for a day, as a contrast it was incredibly nice, it was like a jack hammer being turned off, and the silence that ensued was wonderful. I remember at the end of that day my normal thinking process finally resumed, and I could almost see the words as I thought them float into the emptiness, and start to pile up there. Not long after, I was back to normal but thankfully the jack hammer didn't turn on again As for joy, that was in a dream, when the pool filled up with clear water after flushing all the mud from out the pipes beneath the pool, I caught a branch overhanging the pool as I wasn't to stay in the water, and as I came up out of the water, I started laughing and felt 'joy'. Water in dreams = emotions, and this dream really explains my path, working through and clearing emotions, and then having to rise above even the clear emotions, which must lead to joy

Within relative truth, there is always circling and reflecting between inner and outer, subtle and gross, subject and object, and personal and general phenomena. If we cannot distinguish between personal and general phenomena, we become confused and cannot make a meaningful connection between subject and object. An example of personal phenomena is the dream phenomena that arise at night from daytime habits. In a dream we might see a house. Because this is visible only to us, it is our personal phenomena. Then, we might actually build the house which becomes visible to all who see it. This is general phenomena. General phenomena are the collectively shared, generally visible or objective habits of groups of people or societies. Different expressions of personal phenomena come together to create general phenomena which in turn leave a residue in further personal phenomena. For example, a fashion designer might introduce a new fashion through his personal phenomena. This becomes general group phenomena which might inspire another designer who in turn might create a new derivative fashion. We trust in general phenomena through agreed upon complementary gross elements and logic. For example, when we only know white sugar and have never seen brown sugar, we have white sugar's phenomena, and whenever we think of sugar, we automatically think white. We do not even need the word white because it is generally agreed upon and assumed. But if somewhere else there are people who only know brown sugar, they do not even need the word brown because when they think of sugar they automatically think brown. Those who have both white and brown sugars' habit think which sugar, white or brown? Unless our dualistic mind becomes unconscious dullness mind or until it becomes enlightened non-dualistic mind, there will always be obstructed phenomena. Where phenomena are obstructed, there will always arise true and untrue conceptions; one's truth is another's untruth and one's untruth is another's truth. According to dualistic mind, truth exists temporarily as true or untrue conceptions depending on its relation to intention and circumstances. That is why we call it relative truth. ~ Dungse Thinley Norbu Rinpoche - Magic Dance

A forum that claims it is a Spiritual site should ignore life's tough problems, issues, ? Really? Then what good is the Spiritual if it cannot address life's tricky situations? This site proudly claims Discussions on the Way and along the Way we encounter all sorts of stuff. This IS the place for those discussions? Yes or No How does anyone reach a level of understanding if we sweep all of the tough stuff under the rug and pretend it doesnt exist? To get to the place where bluebirds sing and fly, where troubles melt like lemon drops and the dreams you dare to dream really do come true way up high you first have to deal with what faces us all here. Here We Are. There IS a light that shines on All. To get to Spring you must endure Winter. The leaves blow across the long, black road to the darkened skies In it's rage. Accept it and deal with it at least discuss it or be some imprisoned bird in a cage where you never are allowed to Fly. That would truly be a shame and a pity. If you refuse to fly through the darkened stormy skies you will never reach where you claim that you desire. If Flying to the promised land were easy we wouldn't even need spirituality, would we? You have wings, it is up to you whether you dare to use them or not. Do you wish to remain caged and flightless on a winter's day in the rain, or, you gonna flap them wings and try.

Funnily enough if you stop searching there is endless peace. It's just the urge to seek, to find the reason for it all, is prominent. I have found for me anyway it goes in cycles. 3-4 months of seeking, meditating, questioning, exploring other paths, reading the Quran for example, or ACIM, and seeing how bits of each fit in to my experience. Then suddenly I have some "event" happen which seems to rush through me like a wave and then for a few weeks I have no interest in spirituality at all. I live like a "normal" person, in the dream, until for some reason I snap out of it. This cycle has occured about 12 times now for about 4 years. The frustration now is no longer not being enlightened but rather not being able to effectively help others either awaken or progress spiritually. Hence my thread about just that, yesturday. For a long while I didn't help people. I thought I was interfering with their Dharma by helping them. That maybe they need to suffer to awaken, that by trying to help people I am getting in the way of natural awakening. It also seems that people awaken just by being in my presence. And a few people have told me I have a lightbody and it is pure white, honestly though I only go on what I experience and as I cannot see energy, I don't put much thought/trust into that. I also read some books by Dolores Cannon that describe "2nd wavers" - people who have come to earth and just walking through a supermarket elevates other peoples consciousness. It resonated with me hugely, but then some of her later teachings started feeling like gobbledee gook.

It's true that nice guys are not nice. Nice guys aka beta males... the orbiters of hot women, who orbit her, compliment her, be lovely to her, with the dream or expectation of sex from her in return... does that sound like a nice person to you? Karma deals with it though. She uses them for attention or money, they suffer... The problem is they never learn. This is why Earth sucks right now, people are making the same mistakes over and over and never learning from them.

I see Trumps Space Force on the same level as EU Army - a politicians wet dream.

Right... there is no such thing as a cosmic universal consciousness, that would be reifying consciousness into a Brahman, a metaphysical essence. There are just minds, but even minds being dependently originated are also empty of individual mind-ness... even so, all of them are only of one singular taste, the taste of luminous-empty insubstantial Mind. Padmasambhava: However, it is not a mere nothingness or something annihilated because it is lucid and present. It does not exist as a single entity because it is present and clear in terms of being many. (On the other hand) it is not created as a multiplicity of things because it is inseparable and of a single flavor. ........ Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation Don't do anything whatsoever with the mind -- Abide in an authentic, natural state. One's own mind, unwavering, is reality. The key is to meditate like this without wavering; Experience the Great [reality] beyond extremes. In a pellucid ocean, Bubbles arise and dissolve again. Just so, thoughts are no different from ultimate reality. So don't find fault; remain at ease. Whatever arises, whatever occurs, Don't grasp -- release it on the spot. Appearances, sounds, and objects are one's own mind; There's nothing except mind. Mind is beyond the extremes of birth and death. The nature of mind, awareness, Uses the objects of the five senses, but Does not wander from reality. In the state of cosmic equilibrium There is nothing to abandon or practice; No meditation or post-meditation period. ~ Miranda Shaw (tr.) "Niguma: Mahamudra as Spontaneous Liberation," in Passionate Enlightenment. Extracted from: http://luminousemptiness.blogspot.com/2004...pontaneous.html (great blog, btw) It is not the same yet not different. What you are talking about is the emptiness aspect. I am talking about the union of luminosity and emptiness, the union of non-dual awareness and dependent origination. You have to realise that everything is Mind, clearly luminous and vivid without subject-object duality, but at the same time, everything is Empty. (3 October, 2009) (11:25 PM) Thusness: u must always know that we do not deny luminosity but the empty nature must be realized what must teachers focus is the luminosity aspect (11:25 PM) Thusness: the brillant cognizance (11:26 PM) Thusness: some neglect the brillant bright and over skewed towards emptiness u must be able to integrate the 2 (11:26 PM) Thusness: it is vivid clear but empty therefore like a dream but not a dream (11:27 PM) Thusness: many mistaken that buddha talk about illusion like a dream (11:28 PM) Thusness: but all manifestation are just so, there is no exception (11:28 PM) Thusness: formation after formation, manifestation after manifestation...endlessly according to DO (11:29 PM) Me: what do u mean by buddha talk about illusoin (11:30 PM) Thusness: Buddha taught that life and samsara are like dreams but he was telling us that reality is dream like like painting on a pond (11:31 PM) Thusness: u must understand this clearly that whatever DO is SO (11:31 PM) Thusness: there is no exception (11:33 PM) Thusness: luminosity is like magical display it is the very display (11:33 PM) Thusness: that is why it is illusion like

Well, its a toss up, It does look on the face of it to be a sucky dream, on the otherhand ! Theres some common dream symbols... but on the other hand, if its all horrible repressed stuff ,, and yet on the other hand,, it could be a previous life event, evidencing reincarnation.....

After that dream I think you should go back to sleep and hope for a better dream. Yeah, maybe one with butterflies in it.

what great synchronicity. just about 15 mins ago I was reflecting on this very topic. I have no answers of course, but for me, it seems like a find razors edge of engaging in this moment, and the idea of preparing for what will come, i.e, death of the body, immortality of spirit, etc. I see this so called physical reality as not being separate from spiritual immortality, I sometimes see this life as the Bardo of Tibetan Beliefs, or the "in-between state". After all, if one is in the bardo, they would think it was the so called real life, much like dreaming and thinking the dream was real. What I am trying to suss out in my weird way is the pathless path. I to meditate every day . And also do some simple nei gung breathing for energy I have done MA for over 40 years, including 10 years of tai chi, but my approach is one of play, and not so much trying to make something happen, or change my nature. hard to put into words. thanks for your reflections. "when skating on thin ice, you may as well dance"

Teach them how to learn. Make an idol of competence and show them how to worship it. Make another one of inner richness -- of treasures not for sharing with just anyone but for illuminating the soul -- and show them how to worship this one. Make a third one of a dream, a big one, because only great goals move the soul to action, small ones bore it and put it to sleep. And the last one of skills, not "just in case" skills, not skills of fear and insecurity, but skills of building that dream, making it real. Place one idol in each corner of their room. Worship one per day together. Don't teach them anything you are not doing yourself. Every week, spend four days on that -- can be minutes, can be hours, but got to be four days every week. Take three days off, ask them to forget all about it for three days, empty their mind, fill it with whatever randomness life puts in their way. Teach them not to take more than three days a week off their task, the task of acquiring perfection, nondecay, immortality. Also sprach Taomeow.

I personally think Zhuang Zhuo used the dream in 'The Dream of the Butterfly' purely as a device to switch realities to another totally separate perspective, namely that of the butterfly. However, no matter what his intention was - which we'll never know - it's our interpretations that matter; the ideas and images the allegory suggests. That's the beauty of allegory; it's meaning is not confined within definite boundaries.

BTW The butterfly dream wasn't the only dream Chuang Tzu talked about. We'll see it later in the Father and Son thread.

Over the years I have compromised my understanding of this but I still hold that a dream is just and dream and not a part of physical (as it truly is) reality. Our brain plays games with us. Oftentimes we are unable to detect when it is making things up or when what we perceive is actual reality.

yes science has proven that hearing is the last perception to go before final death - that's how scientists prove if someone is dead. And of course the Tibetan book of the dead is read outloud to the dead. But science can now use MRIs to prove a person who is in a coma without any external perceptions (apparently) STILL is responding internally in their brain to external sounds! So this has caused people to not get the plug pulled on them. Also if we constantly empty out the left brain source of thoughts - as the source of the I-thought - then our dreams become lucid. While we are dreaming suddenly we will empty out our visual dream realm into the source of the I-thought. Whereas if we rely on external vision as sound - (i.e. written language) this is very difficult while dreaming because written language is such a superficial level of perception. This is similar to keeping "time" with your hands. Try keeping a steady beat with your left hand while the right hand does a syncopated rhythm. No problem. Now try reversing that - the right hand can not keep a steady beat. Why? Our sense of time is actually a deeper perception of rhythm via the vagus nerve and the cerebellum. So while vision crosses the brain wiring via the cerebellum - hearing is the opposite. This is why in Daoist alchemy the left ear is Yuan Qi as the tiger's roar (or yang qi) while the right ear is the yin qi as the dragon's humming. But the left eye is the yin qi as the dragon and the right eye is the yang qi. So the eyes are reversed because when we CLOSE the eyes then we "turn the light around" and listen to the source of the Light. So if you read notes on Daoist alchemy this secret is given - to SEE with the EARS and the hear with the eyes. It sounds very mysterious but actually if we understand the vagus nerve connection to the right side of the brain with the ear as being vagus nerve dominant then it makes sense. For example when we get the chills or tingles from listening to music - that means the vagus nerve has been activated that increases dopamine levels. that's the limit of Western music unless you get slower BPM as trance music that synchronizes the heart - so like 60 beats per minute - that increases the alpha serotonin (the secret of right brain memorization). I will quote a Tibetan medical doctor that emphasizes this secret. Tibetan medical doctor listening secret

Thanks for reply! I'm reporting an experience relating this topic. So, yesterday i had again boner, and it left uncomfortable pressure in the pipes and prostate. Today, decided to try to keep concentration on forehead with om, and belly breathing. As i've also noticed this forehead meditation someway easies the pressure in pipes. It's like opposite force. The pressure decreased from prostate slowly along the pipes and same time pressure seemed to increase in area above scrotum and somewhere inside perineum. Well, i kept on concentrating what i was doing, forehead, breathing, om. The pressure down in the area was quite heavy but then my body began to sort of relax from up towards down. During this there was couple of full body twitches. Then something happened, not at the twitch point but some moments later. The pressure started to decreased rapidly, and there was cool breeze like sensation, starting from the pressure point, expanding everywhere into my body. There was no much other sensations, not pleasure, nor suffer, just mellow cool breeze. Also slight sweating same time. After that couldn't anymore keep concentrating as i'm not so fan of odd sensations during meditation. After meditation, having slight odd feel but nothing very odd, and the pressurepoint isn't there but there's some vibrations in that area and belly area. Also having some tension there. Some sensations of coolness and slight warmth also. Any thoughts what was this? Never happened to me before. edit: forgot that during meditation there was also ringing ears, high pitch sound, also after meditation but it has gone down pretty much. I have time to time some tinnitus like after meditation. edit2: Then a lot later, had warm good relaxed body sensations. Then middle of night had a bit odd dream which wasn't so horrible but i was reacting like it would had been. And when woke up, heart was beating pretty fast, and body had strong shivering all over. Not usual.

Hi there Ayudar ~ Many apologies for the long delay in replying to your very helpful post. While I have only recently discovered the art of dowsing, I ultimately took up I Ching divination for the same reason, more-or-less, why you took up dowsing; that is, because I acquired some degree of understanding concerning the mysterious operations of the subconscious mind; in part through my early study of Book 2 of Wilhelm's I Ching, his Lectures on the I Ching, and to some extent Carl Jung's writings. The ancient writings of both Taoist and Confucian sages also deeply moved me toward the art of I Ching divination, but in the end, I would say the greatest influence was from Book Two itself, of Wilhelm's I Ching. For the sake of the newcomers, though, who have not yet taken up the study of that particular text, and for the sake of zeroing in a little closer on some of the quotes in Post #32, I have selected a number of the more important or relevant ones to re-post here below:- Not to needlessly belabour the apparently obvious, but perhaps it might help some of the newcomers (reading along) if I make a few observations on the above, beginning with Quote #7, which is critical to mastering the art of I Ching divination. At the close of Part Two of The Treatise, we are told very clearly, in no uncertain terms, that only the right person will receive intelligible replies from the Oracle. Thus, it is incumbent upon all those who sincerely wish to master the art of I Ching divination to understand what it means to become "the right person". Now, according to the above, Quote #7, the Oracle is a divine tool to assist us in completely realizing our innate capacities. So, first-off, this must be the attitude in which we approach the Oracle. If it is'nt, then we disqualify ourselves from receiving what is termed, in the I Ching itself, as "an intelligible answer", as in the following:- The Great Treatise: Part 2 - Chapter 8:- 4. First take up the words, Ponder their meaning, Then the fixed rules reveal themselves. But if you are not the right man, The meaning will not manifest itself to you. "In half rhythmic and half rhymed prose, we are here admonished to study the Book of Changes diligently. It is pointed out with praise that continuous change is the rule of the book. In conclusion, attention is called to the fact that an innate capacity is essential to an understanding of the book, otherwise it will remain locked as if with seven seals. If the person consulting the oracle is not in contact with tao, he does not receive an intelligible answer, since it would be of no avail." Secondly, a state of emotional clarity is required, achieved through effecting a state of central harmony, or a correctly centered intellect and will, through the practice of deep concentration and meditation, as intimated in Quote #6, above. This is the way of making contact with the Tao, that is to say, spiritually tuning into It, with our intuitive mind. In Quote #5, it says that supreme concentration causes a mysterious force to emanate outwardly, from within our deepest centre, which stimulates the yarrow stalks, coins, or pendulum, causing them to manifest our innate wisdom mind. But without emotional clarity, we cannot unlock the revealed mysteries. Quote #1 informs us that the divining tools obey or operate according to the laws prescribed by the mind of man, outwardly manifesting the categories (or universal archetypes of the unconscious) which have been activated within its deepest centre, or universal core. Assuming we have effected central harmony, and are in contact with Tao, the Universal Way, then the Oracle speaks. According to Quote #2, the Oracle reaches down into the ultimate source of our inner world and experience, that is, into the unconscious realm. Quote #3 and #4 confirm this; intimating that the Oracle is a means of uniting the conscious and supraconscious aspects of the mind. This relationship is symbolized in the structure of the hexagram itself, in which the inner world is symbolized by the lower trigram, and the outer world by the upper trigram. According to Quote #3, the reply we receive from the Oracle - if we fulfill the necessary conditions - is a kind of divine echo emanating from the unconscious realm. According to Quote #4, fate, or the world of conscious experience, as it is, is ultimately shaped by the power of the unconscious mind. As I say, Ayudar, I share this for the sake of the "newcomers", as it is obvious that you, personally, are in no need of such pointers. But what you have shared has stimulated you me to share the above with the others. I hope you don't mind. Now, while the art of dowsing is clearly unique, in its own particular way(s), as you have kindly and eloquently pointed out for us, it is clear that the role played out by the subconscious in both arts, is more-or-less identical, and entirely central to their ultimate effectiveness. Please forgive my slight deviation here, but since you have intimated your training in dream interpretation, I would like to share with you a recent dream of mine, which I had just a few nights ago. I don't normally recall my dreams, but the other night I seemed to have a fairly lucid (though very short) dream just before I awoke for work. I was present at some sort of indoor meet or gathering, and I was observing a series of secret hand- shakes and arm movements being exchanged between two society members. They then asked me some questions, and it seems they were probing my interest in joining their society. I replied that I did not know enough about them yet to make a truly informed decision, and that I'd like to research a little more. When I asked about the name of their founder and their historical origins, it seemed as though the room suddenly grew silent. Then, with apparent reluctance, (it seemed,) they gave some a name and a few details to check into. The last word they spoke, that I recall hearing before awakening, was the word "Bogomils". I had no conscious recollection of either what that meant or where it would lead. I immediately went to my computer and did a quick Web search. Lo and behold, I discovered it belonged to a medieval French society known as the Cathars, which was heavily persecuted by the Catholic Church and forced underground. I have'nt had the time to engage in any detailed research, but it seems as though they were persecuted for their belief in some form of cosmic dualism. The whole dream strikes me as very odd, since I 've not seen, read, or listened to anything recently, that I have any conscious recall of, related to the "Bogomils". And yet that term was fixed in my mind, as clear as day, upon awakening from that dream. Very, very odd, I must say! I have owned several different versions of the I Ching, most of which I developed deep respect for, but Wilhelm's managed to remain my favorite, despite its few obvious flaws. I am eager to hear the details about your "method of developing a hexagram for evaluating omens," but perhaps it's a good idea to reserve that discussion for a thread dedicated entirely to I Ching studies and applications. Sure glad to hear, though, you kept good notes on it! TO BE CONTINUED IN THE NEXT POST, DUE TO FORMATTING DIFFUCULTIES ...