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This is a collection of posts, from Loppon Malcolm, explaining the epistemological advantage of Dzogchen, when revealing the false mind-matter dichotomy. Though this comparison is made between the lower yanas of Buddhism: it can be concluded, without doubt, that this mind-body dichotomy is a prominent feature among Eastern and Western philosophical traditions: Now we are entering the realm of Ati yoga, where we discover that actually the fundamental state of our being is our physical body - our existence as body ~ Dzogchen Ponlop Rinpoche http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=200 ...only in Dzogchen teachings is the substance dualism that is a prime feature of Buddhist thought from abhidharma right up the the lower tantras truly overcome in an explicit fashion. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=220 The manner in which the other schools resolved this is through recourse to a species of mentalism i.e. the subtle inner madhyamaka, if you will... No, seriously -- for example, Khyentse Wangchuk declares that there is no difference between mind and matter because everything is established as mind. This is perfectly acceptable thing to say in a Lamdre context. I have seen the same statement [everything is established as mind] coming from Gelugpas when they explain how one is to practice Vajrayāna, as opposed to how the Gelug sutra view is formed and asserted. This is also how the Kagyus phrase things. This is not how Dzogchen deals with the issue at all. Please bear in mind that not everything said by Nyingmapas necessarily reflects the view of Dzogchen. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8380&start=0 If you elevate everything to the ultimate level, even "...matter is unconditioned without anything missing", as it says in the Yum Chenmo, the sutra of Perfect Wisdom in 100,000 lines. But the Buddhist scholastics from Sarvastivada up to Dharmakirti have always maintained a hard division between mind and matter, between nāma on the one hand and rūpa on the other. For example, in the account of the twelve links in the Vibhanga, the Pali Abhidharma compendium, when discussing the twelve nidanas, it even leaves off the rūpa in the nidana of nāmarūpa, running ignorance, formations, consciousness, name, etc. The Yogacara school attempts to supercede this dualism through asserting that everything is fundamentally a projection of the mind -- in fact the 15th century Lamdre Master Khyentse Wangchuk states, there is no dualism of mind and matter because everything is mind. As we know, Madhyamaka adopts the conventional truth either according to the Sautrantika system, or the Yogacara system. But since it's own perspective is grounded in the Prajñāpāramitasūtras, it regards distinctions such as mind and matter to be merely conventional designations that do not have any real basis apart from imputation. But we can see that this division is well preserved in Buddhist tantric literature (as well as Hindu tantric literature) when we find for example that the mind is described as a rider of a horse, vāyu. This is because both forms of tantra, Buddhist as well as Hindu, are concerned with the mechanics of the body for understanding how to gain realization through our embodiment through the practice of various kinds of yoga. Granted, this is sometimes is found in Dzogchen literature as well. But when we examine that actual system of Dzogchen according to the ancient Dzogchen tantras, we find that in fact even consciousness itself is generated phsyiologically in the body by a vāyu. I have yet to find in an original Dzogchen tantra the common Buddhist term khams drug, sadadhātu i.e. earth, water, fire, air, space and consciousness. I may yet find it, but at least the Valby KWIC tool does not in fact list it in the 83 or so important Dzogchen tantras that he converted into searchable text files. It also does not list every instance of thod rgal in the Dzogchen tantras as well so its look up routines are not completely infallible. But there are hundreds of references to the five elements ('byung lnga, pañcabhutani). I have been also examining the Mdzod phug lately, Bon "Abhidharma" and cosmology, is largely freed from the constraints of Buddhist conservatism, has very interesting things to say about the five elements and so on, and when is a text clearly influenced by Dzogchen. A kind of Dzogchen Abhidharma. One of the reasons why I started looking into this text is that the Rigpa Rangshar tantra contains a very brief mention of a primordial egg cosmology which accounts for the formation of the world, similar to the Vedas and Bon: Now, to demonstrate the ignorance of the object of delusion: delusion is deluded by the forgoing. The field is prior to the formation of the world; a so called “wish-fulfilling tree” grows, a tree growing from the blessing of the youthful vase body of the buddha, born from warmth and moisture which arose from an egg. The Sahāloka formed from the mind disturbing the so-called self-originated wisdom in that. That is called the ignorance of the field of delusion. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7522&hilit=delusion&start=60 A tantra called Uprooting Delusion from the dgongs pa zang thal cycle provides the following description: The way sentient beings arise: that nameless general ground, is non-conceptual and not established at all, invisible and unclear, from which when the bifurcation occurs, since vāyu, vidyā, and space separate, [3/b] the intrinsic sound of the elements produces vibration. From the inside of the darkness of the clear part of appearances, as soon as a storm of fire emerges, scattering everywhere, Vidyā, like the mind of a lunatic, is dazed and reeling. Since vidyā lacks confidence in its own appearances, it panics at sound, is frightened of rays, and through awareness not taking its own place, the ignorance that arises simultaneously with it is called “the causal ignorance. Because of a lack of mindful attention, self and other are grasped as a duality, and both outer and inner dependent origination occur. The whole universe arises through awareness looking externally. All sentient being arise through awareness looking internally. Through looking there, fearful appearances arise, through looking here, ‘self’ arises. Many mistakes arise from the single mistake about the appearances of here and there. Because of being mistaken about a self, there is a mistake about other, attachment to self, aversion to other. From the seed of attachment and aversion, the whole outer universe and inhabitants are mistakes. Because one is held as two, [4/a] that is called the delusion of dualistic grasping. Since one imputed and mistook outer and inner, that is called “the imputing ignorance”. Because of familiarity of subject and object of that, from the thick buildup of traces, there was entrance into the state of samsara. That is how the six migrations occurred.” http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7522&hilit=delusion&start=80 ...the String of Pearls states: Having been gripped by the apprehender and apprehended in the aggregates, elements and gateways, one remains in samsara itself for a long while, within the belly of the three realms one is placed in the prison of name and matter, [352] bound by the chains of ignorance, covered with dense black darkness of samsara, attached to the spicy taste of passion, one is bound by the noose of confusion, tormented by the hot fire of hatred, one’s head is covered by pride, the gates of jealously are locked, surrounded by the armies of resentment and so on, tied about the neck with the noose of apprehender and apprehended, stuck in the swamp of past traces, one’s hands are shackled with ripened karma, the mother of karma is joined with her child, one following the other just like a water wheel, alternating between good and bad bodies, born in different forms, and through heightening one’s self-grasping one sinks to the bottom of the ocean of suffering, one’s heart is grabbed by the goad of the evil destinies, one binds oneself with the enemy, afflictions. Fire appears as water to hell beings, as hunger and thirst to hungry ghosts, as fog to animals. the aggregates, gateways and elements appears as the five elements to humans, those are also pleasurable, painful and neutral, as weapons and armor to asuras, and as desirable things to gods. For example, just like a rapidly spinning fire wheel one abides continuously in samsara for a long while. Such various appearances are like seeing a snake in a rope since what isn’t there is held to be there, both the outer and inner container and contents form, and if that is investigated, it is a rope, i.e. the container and contents are already empty the ultimate with the form of the relative." The mistake then is seeing as there what isn't there, which is why this tantra, among others uses the rope/snake example. What this tantra is stating is that deluded appearances we see that are predicated in the basis do not exist in the basis and are not appearances of the basis, but rather misapprehensions of the appearance of the basis. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=7522&p=89967&hilit=delusion#p89967 Sentient beings are deluded about the display of the basis. When they cease to be so deluded, they are buddhas. The basis never displays as anything other than the five lights. Further, The Luminous Space states: That mind is produced out of the dualistic grasping to the six objects of the manifestation of wisdom. How can that [mind] be produced? Since [the mind] is produced from that ignorance that does not recognize the intrinsic manifestation of wisdom [the mind] is produced. Sentient beings, rocks and trees are assembled by delusion about the basis. But the basis only displays one way. It does not display as both samsara and nirvana. Since that critical point of luminous empty vidyā was not recognized, grasping onto that produced the five elements, and the causal thigle [was produced] from the refined part of those. The body was produced from that [refined part] and energy [rtsal] of wisdom produces the five sense gates in that [body]. Within those [sense gates] the five wisdoms are produced. The five [sense gates] grasping onto those [five wisdoms produce] the five afflictions. After first being created by the energy of wisdom; in the middle, it was not recognized that the body of the refined part of the assembled elements actually is the five wisdoms, since this was not realized, through intellectual views, the non-sentient and sentient both appear, but don’t believe it. Here, it is actually five wisdoms to begin with; in the middle, when the body is formed from assembly of the elements through ignorance grasping onto those [five wisdoms] also, it is actually the five wisdoms. The five aggregates, sense organs, and afflictions also are actually the five wisdoms. In the end, since one transcends accepting, rejecting, proofs, and negations since those are realized to not be real. As such, the sign of non-duality is [the body] disappearing into wisdom without any effluents because the critical point of the non-duality or sameness of the non-sentient and the sentient was understood according to the Guru’s intimate instruction. The basis only is the five wisdoms and only displays as the five wisdoms -- the rest is delusion. Ignorance [avidyā] is not a display of the basis, it is delusion about the display of the basis. Knowledge is not a display of the basis, it is the absence of delusion about the display of the basis. One basis, two paths, two results. http://vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=59&t=1203&start=140 According to the sNying thig tradition, at the time of the result the division between animate and inanimate vanishes. The distinction vanishes. The basic view of man ngag sde is that the light, the visible expression of wisdom, is reified into the five elements. When that reification is dissolved, also the perception of a difference between the animate and inanimate dissolves, since the five elements pervade all phenomena including mind/consciousness. Actually, the view of man ngag sde is that even consciousness itself is a product of the five elements. But this is not a problem since the actual nature of the five elements is the five wisdoms. Yes, this is how Dzogchen can give a physicalist account of consciousness while avoiding the charge of being physicalists, i.e., because the appearance of the sentient and the non-sentient arises out of the a misperception of the five lights of the basis. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8536&start=40 ...Since the brain is made of five elements, it too is made of the five wisdoms (ye shes) of vidyā. Therefore, there is no problem with awareness, etc., having a basis in the body. Actually, what we say in Dzogchen is that the wisdom of vidyā is located in the heart, the energy of vidyā is located in the brain, where it governs sense organs and cognitions. Wisdom has no origin, it formed naturally. Hence the metaphor of the peacock feather. The elements form from the non-recognition of of the five lights of connected with the five wisdoms. The Khandro Nyinthig states: Since that mind arose as automatic manifestation of six mental apprehenders, the five elements are produced. Since those are not recognized as the five wisdoms, the five elements assemble in dependence upon grasping those [five wisdoms]. Since those assemble, the body forms through the action of one [element] assisting the other. With that forms the apprehended and the apprehender. And: As such, that basis, the natural reality of things, the great intrinsic energy of wisdom, the dharmakāya, was not recognized, and because of the stains of grasping to it, the elements assemble; the body forms from them, and based on that [body], one wanders in samsara until one ages and dies. And: Since the five energies of wisdom are unceasing, the body forms from the five elements. Since two kāyas are integrated with the relative elements, that previous understanding of the intrinsic energy of wisdom is totally forgotten. The ultimate four elements is the dharmakāya, the relative four elements is the sambogakāya. Nirmanakāya is the lack of sameness and difference of the two kāyas. And: To sum it all up, ignorant attachment to dualistic appearances assembles the energy of wisdom into the elements, and forms the body in actuality. And: Energy is produced unceasingly from that wisdom. Since that energy was not recognized, that apparent and natureless radiant luminosity of wisdom arose as the empty luminosity of the five lights. [430] Within that, since this thinker of thoughts grasps the unceasing energy of wisdom, and since that five colored energy is assembled as the elements, therefore, the body, flesh, blood, warmth, breath, channels and so on are formed from that energy of wisdom. For as long as the mind and the body do not separate, the channels, vāyus, bindus, wisdoms and so on are inseparable. Since that is not recognized as such and the one is grasped as many, like the nameless becoming named, since the five wisdoms, the five afflictions, and so on are divisions in one thing, also those wishing for Buddhahood have aggregates, without contacting the meaning of this even slightly. With this everything is recognized as coming from the energy of wisdom. Since inseparability is recognized, therefore the defiled also comes from the energy of wisdom. Also that self-liberated from the mind, and as the defiled does not appear, Buddhahood is attained in the expanse of wisdom. Therefore, it is inseparable. Others hold them as different, and respond with practice. And: ... after the body formed because the energy of initial vidyā was not recognized as wisdom, there is delusion because of the grasping of materiality, and wandering in samsara. And: The relative material bindu is the intrinsic radiance of those five wisdoms of the originally pure dharmadhātu externally manifesting as five lights, after which, the elements are produced upon the mere traces of grasping of the mind. Further, the natural reality of that mind (that established in anyway) is space. Whether that is like this or not, the energy of that vivid luminosity arising as the diversity, that is called “vāyu”, it is called “mind”. Though luminosity is called mind, because of movement, it is called “vāyu”. When examined, it is not established in anyway. Also luminosity is not established, also movement is not established, also inseparability is not established. Since that is not recognized, since that energy that grasps so called “vāyu” produces heat, there is fire. For example, just as when sweat and heat is produced when a person does hard work, [fire] is produced from that grasping onto heat. When the heat of fire touches the ground, water is produced in the form of vapor. Since grasping onto that energy of wisdom arose, the outer five elements are produced, caused one by one. The five elements form matter. Since grasping onto that arose, the five elements assemble, and the body forms through the condition of the five refined parts of those [elements], one by one. If it is asked why, now then to begin with, the energy of wisdom is vāyu, from that is heat; from that, earth; from that, water: since each assists another, the body develops more i.e. the body actually forms out of the refined part of the five elements. That [body] is pervaded by the refined part of the five elements. The refined parts and that energy of wisdom are given the name “channels, vāyus, and bindu”. The energy of wisdom is the five elements. Since wisdom is present in them, there are five wisdoms. That is given the name material bindu. Wisdom is inseparably present within that material bindu. And: Further, to begin with, the body is formed by ignorance of the wisdom of basis. The nature of wisdom in that body is the refined part of the five elements, present in the material bindu as the play of the kāyas and wisdoms. Since their luminous radiance arose as light, it is given the name “three wisdoms”. And: Though the body is formed form ignorance of the basis, as soon as that is recognized, it is not beyond wisdom in the beginning, the end and in the middle. Etc. this text just goes on and on in the same vein. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=240 While there are of course Dzogchen texts that describe mind and body as separate, in general, the innermost secret cycle holds that the perception that there is a difference between the animate and inanimate is a mistaken one. In the state of ultimate liberation [i.e. samyaksambuddhahood], the distinction between animate and inanimate disappears because it is not true. Further, like other Vajrayāna traditions, Dzogchen provides a physical account for the process of rebirth for example in the Vajramala Tantra: it is proposed that the alayavijñāna, which is inseparable with the mahāprāṇavāyu, is responsible for transmigration; for the appropriation of a new series of aggregates. But Dzogchen goes a step further and explicitly identifies consciousness as the operation of a vāyu in the body. Vāyus of course are the function of the refined element of air inside the human body. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=280 - The point is that in Dzogchen teachings mind and matter are not treated as different substances as they are in other Buddhist systems. They are equally treated as producers of the five elements. The way in which Dzogchen avoids the charge of being "physicalist" is that the five elements themselves arise from misperception of the nature of the basis [more or less emptiness endowed with light], without needing the intermediate step of proposing everything is an appearance of mind and so on. And of course the awareness that misperceives the basis arises out of a vāyu that stirs in the basis, and so on. It gets a little complex.... ...basically the point being underscored is that matter and intelligence are non-dual. For example, it is a special tenet of Dzogchen that even the formless realms are material, i.e., that basically, wherever there is matter, there is consciousness, wherever there is consciousness, there is matter. You can either say that matter is intrinsically conscious or that consciousness is intrinsically embodied. Either way it amounts to the same thing. "Sentient" and "non-sentient" are merely conventional designations based on appearances generated by ignorance.... No, not photons, not physical light in the western scientific sense of the term. Precisely, the basis is ye shes. Empty luminous energetic ye shes which appears to a neutral awareness (which itself rises out of the basis when a vāyu in the basis stirs). http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=6842&start=0 The basis is called the basis because it has not been realized. At present the basis is not latent, like it is between eons. At present the basis is in a state of manifestation as Buddhas and sentient beings. When the basis is latent, we term it "the time of the basis" or "the bardo of samsara and nirvana". After the basis manifests we term this phase "samsara and nirvana turn their backs to one another". When we fully realize the path of dzogchen, it is called "the universe manifests as the basis": in other words, our total experience will be the three wisdoms subsumed under the name, great original purity. The basis itself has not changed in anyway during these three time periods. When the latent awareness (shes pa bag la nyal] of the basis recognizes the basis as its own display, it becomes prajñā [shes rab] and realizes buddhahood as Samantabhadra. When the latent awareness of the basis does not recognize itself, under the power of the imputing ignorance that imputs appearances as other and that awarness as a self, it becomes consciousness [rnam par shes pa]. The 'latent awareness of the basis' is an aggregate name for all those beings who have not acheived total buddhahood in the previous eon, but acheived a so called "buddhahood that reverts to the cause", [as I have explained now several times within the last few weeks] in the same way that we refer to the aggregated consciousnesses of all sentient beings as the vijñānadhātu, along with dhātus of earth, water, air, fire and space, the so called sadadhātu, the six dhātus. It is part of the rtsal of the basis.... The basis is not one thing, it is not many. It is the dharmadhātu... ...This is basically how it is -- but since there is no individuating consciousnesses driven by affliction, the awareness latent in the basis is not discussed in plural terms, that is until there are individuating consciousnesses when samasara and nirvana "turn their back to each other". Oh, this comes about because of traces of action and ignorance. Nothing in the basis changes, of course, what happens is that there is sort of cosmic pulsation of ignorance and its subsidance which results in the appearance and disappearance of samsara and nirvana; and as we know, traces can accumulate in wisdom. You have to understand that all of this explanation of cosmic cycles is really intended to be brought down to the level of the individual's life cycle in terms of the four bardos: The bardo of death == destruction of the universe up to the two higher form realms The bardo of dharmatā == the arising of the sound, light and rays of the basis The bardo of becoming == non-recognition of the basis The natural bardo of this life == the appearance of samsara and nirvana It is an explanation for practice. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=300 - Correct, the aspect of the basis called compassion is the energy of the display of the universe and all its beings.... Real "pure" view means seeing universe and beings arising as the basis. The "pure" view in Vajrayāna is merely a conceptual construction which itself needs to be remedied with the completion stage. Dzogchen skips the two stages.... There are two bases, the original general basis and the basis of the person. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=14040&start=320 A mind or an awareness [shes pa] has a "choice" recognition or non-recognition. The recognizing mind is called vidyā or prajñā. The non-recognizing mind is called avidyā. There are two kinds of Buddhahood in Dzogchen, abhisambodhi, which has a non-abiding nirvana; samyaksambodhi which enters nirvana without remainder. Omniscience arises because the capacity for omniscience is present in the form of potential in the basis. http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=8536&start=20 When one has eliminated the traces of affliction and action in one's own five elements, one's body reverts to its original state as five lights, hence "The body of light". http://http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=15183&start=20 The theory of the body of light is predicted on the fundamental state of reality being something called wisdom, which has five lights, which are reified as physical matter. Upon completion of the path, one sees this matter in its real nature once again and the elements of the body "revert" to their original nature as wisdom (i.e. through the process of thogal one eradicates all the afflictive obscurations which prevent one from seeing things just as they are (yathabhutaṃ)); Body of light is a realization.... It's only necessary, to understand the difference between the use of 'alaya' in Mahamudra and Dzogchen, in this way: http://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=9082&start=40 In Mahāmudra and Lamdre, ālaya refers to the nature of the mind i.e. inseperable clarity and emptiness [of one's mind]. In Dzogchen ālaya refers to ignorance... If anyone's interested in understanding tathagatagarbha/alayavijnana according to sutrayana and vajrayana here's some links in no particular order: http://www.vajracakra.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=688 http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php? f=102&t=6823&p=84637&hilit=alayavijnana%3Bchandrakirti#p84637 http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=102&t=6731&start=120 http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=39&t=4056 http://www.dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=5219 http://www.scribd.com/doc/99264798/A-Comparison-of-%C4%80laya-Vijn%C4%81na-in-Yog%C4%81c%C4%81ra-and-Dzogchen - comparison of alayavijnana in Yogacara and Dzogchen