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I am currently reading a book on Zen called "The Three Pillars of Zen". I read this part: I can't help but feel that the basic premise here, that overcoming the pain is some form of spiritual breakthrough, is false. I went to the dentist a while ago to get a bridge put in. When they were taking an imprint of my teeth by placing a dental appliance in my mouth filled with quick-drying-cement, something happened and I found myself in a horrible amount of pain. I think it may be related to the fact that I have one tooth with a rather large mercury amalgam filling in it that was reacting to the chemicals in the 'cement' that they had mixed. I was in a horrible amount of pain, similar to the effect when you touch a piece of metal, like a spoon or metal appliance directly on the filling. I had to hold the appliance in my mouth for two minutes! I was screaming and shocked. Such pain! I used all my willpower and endured the two minutes of intense pain. A little crowd of people whom were curious about what the screaming was all about soon gathered. Anyway, after that, having endured the torture and great pain, I felt like I was high. It was a great feeling. I was so elated that I didn't even consider the high-priced payment that followed. The effect lasted for about 1 hour. I felt like I was floating on clouds. My point is this: sure, great amounts of pain will eventually release endorphins in the brain and make you high. It has nothing to do with spirituality. I laughed when I read about the response from the Zen teacher to the student, especially when I remembered the effect the intense pain caused me from visiting the dentist's office. Reminds me of "runner's high" or "jogger's high". Granted, great pain can cause some interesting states of mind, but where except in Zen do you find the idea that overcoming pain or pushing it unti the brain releases joy-juice is something spiritual? Question: Once you overcome the pain from sitting extended amounts of time, does it ever come back in later sessions? If it does, then it isn't any form of accomplishment, is it?