Attention! Letter From David Verdesi Regarding Wang Liping

[松永道]

Verdesi, what a story teller! Have you noticed some people in life are just like that. In our flexible reality they weave a tale so beautifully..

 

But alas I just read this here story instead of practicing taiji.

 

What darebak said has real meaning,

 

"The basic results ... clearly become proof with practice."

 

3 years ago another teacher, Master Wu, stated bluntly, "form doesn't matter so much, there are many good forms. Practice is what's important." As I recall, David told students to practice 1.5 hours every morning and evening. If you practiced anything 3 hours a day - Eight Brocades, Taiji, Zhan Zhuang, Yoga - you'll either be getting serious results or practicing seriously wrong.

 

The way I see it, that neither denigrates or validates Verdesi's teachings.

 

But it does validate that you've put in the effort to get back some results - that's meaningful! And if Vedesi's story brought you to practice, then for all its theatrics, it still helped.

[Creation]

Friends in the Tao,

 

To some extent I agree with Ken and Pietro that going around about Verdesi endlessly is foolish. Certainly there is enough out there to decide whether he is "for real" or not for yourself, and it's not on anyone to convince anyone else of their point of view.

 

But I really think there are many good lessons to be learned from all this Verdesi business. That is why I continue to contribute to such discussions.

 

Here is an example: If the stuff matt007 posted is authentic, then things have come full circle. Verdesi is (IMHO) the main proponent in this forum's history (through Sean Denty) for the view that all the phenomena like what is in your dan tien or what you can do with your chi is a sign of how spiritually developed you are. And now he says he was wrong to think that way. I think this is an important lesson. Phenomena seekers note well: someone who has spent almost half his life phenomena seeking and made major progress in that direction now says that is not where the Tao lies (my paraphrase, of course).

 

Cultivating virtue, wisdom, and connection to the Tao/Divine was, is, and will remain far more important than making a solid ball of chi in your lower field or making electrical current come from your body.

 

Regards,

Tyler

Edited May 15, 2009 by Creation

[forestofsouls]

A remote master would not do anyone any good. I think the trouble with teachers is similar to the problem with the mind. We look in all the wrong places.

 

But you're probably right. There are surely some master, in a remote place with nothing to gain from taking anything, only giving. Funny thing though, they seem to be all around, if you know how to look.

[YMWong]

someone who has spent almost half his life

 

LOL

 

and made major progress

 

LOL

 

now says that is not where the Tao lies

 

I guess we should really believe him now, right ?

 

LOL

 

So now he is all about "cultivating virtue and wisdom" and while waiting for wisdom to catch up he finds the time to entertain people with the same old stuff:

 

http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/h...ubsection/ID/16

 

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YM

[neidan practitioner]

Seminar Tuition for each course is 4000 Euro. 50% Deposit to be given in advance.

YM

 

I find it hard to understand why anyone would even consider paying that much money

for some basic qigong training. If someone just diligentlly practices simple standing

meditation or sitting meditation, for even just 20 or 30 minutes a day, over time they

should be able to make good progress. I guess the hype and allusions to great secrets

being revealed and great powers appeals more to the ego. Also, it may also be that

many people just do not know any better. It's sad how unscrupulous some people can be,

but such is the way of the world.

 

- np -

Edited May 15, 2009 by neidan practitioner

[gendao]

im not sure where to begin...i guess to start from the end make sense

 

it was October last year when Rene and i were together in Hang Zhou and it was then the beginning of the end.

 

Rene Navarro, teacher and good friend, we sat in the hotel smoking a good cigar and we spoke of the most odd realization: after 15 years of hard trying, to experience the power of the yin yang gong even if only at a primitive stage, left me....with nothing.

 

No permanent transformation in the core of my being, not even the sense of fearlessness toward death having reached a form of immortality really made any difference, actually opposite the strong sense that the "me" who should feel different is not there to be found.

 

i thought of Rene breaking bricks with his bare hands and imagined how similar it must have been, a skill, applied concentration and controlled power, but did it make us better people?

 

obviously not, we carried all of our self -our ego- imperfections, separations and illusions, attachements, sorrows and fears along, we did not realize liberation from suffering, nor unbound joy and partecipation in the divine.

 

Most of all none of these achievement seem to grant even the bare benefits most people expect, superior health, rejuvenation and buoyant energy, both myself and the great masters i met were and are subject to the banal seasonal cold once in a while, a flu or the aching of age as anyone else coupled with aging, and by looking at the masters who achieved higher level i saw nothing but the same pattern repeated, from Luo, to Magus, to Jiang, even Liping (great wake up call) and the other over 20 masters met through the years.

 

The only thing which made a difference has been the clarification of Xing -self nature- attained years before, and having fullfilled Ming -destined actualized potential- made Xing and what is before Xing to come forth.

 

In the months which followed huang shan i went through a major "walking dead man" state as its called in Daoism.

 

in these months was coaxed by Liping to intensify the Xian Tian practices, i made the mistake of following the lead, (this is a VERY interesting story but will keep it for another time), which was in its own right a great lesson leaving me with the very same impression, the development of incredible skills at the level of the Shen rather then the Qi but ultimately just skills which nothing contribute to happiness, and true fullfillment.

 

Furhtermore creating the illusion of a crystallization of the sense of "I" and "self" doing a practice, the deluded but reinforced perception that there is an "I" achieving, an "I" fearing death, an "I" to be "immortalized" leading to nothing but a greater separation from the divine which is seen as unreacheable if not through hardship and self denial, loosing the great gift we all have to actually know God immediately by looking in the the nature of Love.

 

As the months passed the questioning became stronger, and it was July when Shifuji one of the only real enlighted masters i know appeared in vision calling me to see him in Korea....when i got there, that was the end and a new beginning, finally after 11 years i was ready to let go and drop everything ready for his teachings, to finally "jump" as he likes to say since i met him in the 90's. He passed the transmission of the Miao Tong Dao, and made me a free man, a man who loves, who lives in God grace, he took away my burning desire, he quenched my thirst, fufilled my hunger, was a small awakening.

 

He then told me i was not to go back to China...and in fact no matter how hard i tried i was not able to go back...coming back to Italy was magnificent, i wonder why i left in the first place 16 long years ago.

 

Imagine that shortly after coming back friends from the chinese community incvited me to meet and off chinese gentleman visiting who turn out to be among the highest Lei Shan Dao master i ever met so far ( he leaves prints on rocks making well above level 36, Magus is 20 Jiang is 10) right here in the heart of Rome!life is ironic.

 

Problem was that having lost all illusion about practice and spirituality, having quenched the thirst and having found that which is not to be found, leaving nothing undone, and nothing else to do really but being, have been really looking for a way out from teaching and just desappear in silent anonimity, till last week when the chance actually came and...God hands guided me toward teaching again, this time to teach and show others the power of Love the most simple and great practice of all, from where the fulfillment of Shifuji words, to go and teach the Miao Tong Dao till the time is right....as for what the teaching of the Miao Tong are about, is direct experience and what shifuji passed me is the ability to bring people in to direct experience, beyond words, forms, concepts. Simple, magnificent.

After you experience you know.

 

Many of you will now be questioning the meaning of Qi and Shen practice then, i now can tell that though are actually just corollary, if correctly understood skilfully used and applied are means to an end, a base upon which to build, a crutch to lean on, powerfull tools, but not as powerful as peeling potatoes as the master often pointed out!

 

This i have been teaching since the beginning really, so nothing new, now i realized it.

 

Therefore remember practice is practice, nothing more nothing less, in itself does not lead to liberation, yet like anything is tool toward it, and dear to the chinese tradition the media, the expedient and experience of Qi and Shen is the base of choice toward the great breakthrough.

 

Lao Zi spoke the Dao i teach is the Miao Xuan Tong Dao, -the Dao of the wonderous ineffable and mysterious breaktrhough- leading to Xi Ming- penetrate enlightment-

Interesting post, kinda reflects what I had said here, about how the egoic pursuit of power only gets you so far in this game.

 

There's mastering the illusion and then there's transcending the illusion...

 

That said, I do know a medical qigong doctor who I've never seen sick even once and looks radiantly young for her age. So, it may be that alchemical neigong doesn't necessarily have the same health benefits as simple qigong for health (which is what I assume she practices).

 

BTW, I don't think DV has no skills - the main critiques against him have been concerning his business practices.

And similarly, I don't think he questions WLP's level so much as the limited amount that he may teach his students.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 7, 2009 by mjjbecker

[neidan practitioner]

You pays your money and you makes your choices at the end of the day.

 

Or one can just go ahead and practice simple standing or sitting meditation for free, and

make just as good, if not better progress. Just simply quieting the mind and

keeping the back naturally straight and relaxed while sitting or standing is all there really

is to it. Do we really need to pay a teacher to learn that? IMO. this is the real secret of qigong and cultivation

that the teachers for profit don't want people to know, or which the teachers for profit don't know

themselves.

 

For the beginner, simple standing meditation is probably the best IMO, although maybe not easy to do at first, and in my experience is much more effective than other types of moving qigong exercises I have tried. BTW,

I am not putting down various moving qigong exercises or the internal martial arts in any way, as the body

needs exercise, and these types of moving exercises are very good for the body and health in general,

in my experience. I love practicing tai chi. Yes, one should probably have a teacher if they are going to

learn an internal martial art or the more complicated forms of moving qigong, as the subtleties of these arts

may be hard to grasp without the guidance of a teacher; and although instructional videos are getting

very good these days, a video is always limited in scope due to time constraints and variations of how

things should be done at different stages in the practice. That is the beauty of practicing simple

standing or sitting meditation. No complicated procedures to learn, and it gets right to the point of

cultivation. Maybe that is just too simple for our modern minds which expect that the simpler something is,

or the less it costs, the less value it must be, or something like that anyway.

 

- np -

Edited May 15, 2009 by neidan practitioner

[matt007]

Does David Verdesi has something beyond just being a good salesman. The main argument against is that it's expensive, so it must be a scam. This is not a logical argument. I'm not saying it is or it isn't a scam by the way.

[Creation]

I guess we should really believe him now, right ?

I certainly don't think Verdesi is as enlightened or anywhere near it. And it bothers me that since it's only 6 months since he had this revelation and he is already telling people he can transmit enlightenment to them. But that wasn't my point. I try to learn from everything and everyone as best I can, including learning from other peoples mistakes. Of course, you can get whatever you want out of all this.

 

So now he is all about "cultivating virtue and wisdom"...

"Cultivating virtue and wisdom" was my words, not David's. All he said was that all the yin-yang gong, etc. stuff didn't give him true fulfillment. I took this as a confirmation that I am on the right track not being a phenomena seeker but instead being "all about 'cultivating virtue and wisdom'", and I thought it might help other people if I pointed that out. But maybe I am just feeding my ego in thinking this.

 

-Tyler

Edited May 15, 2009 by Creation

[matt007]

[Neikung]

Does David Verdesi has something beyond just being a good salesman. The main argument against is that it's expensive, so it must be a scam. This is not a logical argument. I'm not saying it is or it isn't a scam by the way.

I don't think being expensive is the main argument although it did add to the absurdity. The main point for me (and I suspect many others) is that David has been caught lying in many many occasions.

[matt007]

I don't think being expensive is the main argument although it did add to the absurdity. The main point for me (and I suspect many others) is that David has been caught lying in many many occasions.

Really? To you? What were the lies?

[evZENy]

Reading all this I want to be able to walk in an old village somewhere and find a guy who works in the rice fields, drinks when he is thirsty and sleeps when he is tired.

Where are these guys?

I heard one of them was invited here in the USA 1-2 years ago, but he disappeared back in his village...

 

The trouble with the real people of Tao is they do not look for publicity.

And those who do, are not the real people of Tao (to rephrase you know what :-)

[matt007]

[neidan practitioner]

Edited May 15, 2009 by neidan practitioner

[qijack]

I cant beleive the amount of disrespect i am seeing here towards David Verdesi, on a forum dedicated to the Tao

[Matt]

Edited May 16, 2009 by Matt

[tongkosong]

I don't think being expensive is the main argument although it did add to the absurdity. The main point for me (and I suspect many others) is that David has been caught lying in many many occasions.

 

For those who do not know the lies David or his students have told, which have been proven to be false, I guess you are new to the Taobums' forum, so please look through the many discussions in this forum about David, Seandenty, John Chang, Wang Liping, Jiang, and all the bulls@it about sucking Chi from bulls. Maybe the reason those sessions are so costly is because the bulls used are wagyu cows...or commonly known for Kobe beef. I guess many people do not believe David or his stories is because...I don't know....maybe it's all the lies he told.

[Taomeow]

The trouble with the real people of Tao is they do not look for publicity.

And those who do, are not the real people of Tao (to rephrase you know what :-)

I'd say the "real" trouble with jun zi is that you can't really pin them down and classify them by saying what they do or don't do. If you successfully put her in a box of your choice, if you pinned her down with a definition/specs to meet/expectations to match, she is not a jun zi !

 

There's the two great taoist traditions one might want to consider when addressing these matters. The names for these more or less mean "abandoning/forsaking/leaving behind the world" and "returning/entering/going into the world" (the secular society, that is.) We are familiar with stories of taoists who "leave the world" to be hermits in the mountains, but those same hermits, when the time is right ("a sage grasps time by the tail, not letting it pass by, and values an inch of time over a foot of jade"), abandon the cave and go "into the world," into the hustle and bustle, both to benefit the people and to hone and temper their own art with the challenges of human mundanity.

 

Many of them served at imperial courts, and one of them, an adviser to an emperor, turned out to be an immortal in the actual state of stardom -- i.e. when he was born, astronomers noted the disappearance of a particular star from a known constellation, and when he told the emperor his task was complete and left, the star reappeared that very night. While in service, the guy was notorious for his dissipated lifestyle, with drinking, sex, outrageous luxuries, and nonstop bragging. (A star is a star is a star! ) The story can be found in Eva Wong's "Tales of the Taoist Immortals."

 

But closer to home... A teacher will go public if her teacher says so. This is the case with Wang Liping, e.g.. This is the case with my taiji teacher, as another example -- whose teacher gave him a written order to bring the art of taijiquan to the world. So just because someone goes public means... exactly nothing in terms of his or her level of attainment. Nothing at all!

[YMWong]

I'd say the "real" trouble with jun zi is that you can't really pin them down and classify them by saying what they do or don't do. If you successfully put her in a box of your choice, if you pinned her down with a definition/specs to meet/expectations to match, she is not a jun zi !

 

Junzi and 'daoist' don't go well together and certainly are not the same thing.

Moreover, Junzi cannot be a 'she' as the noun itself implies a masculine gender. I am afraid you must invent a new title for that

 

YM

[宁]

Junzi and 'daoist' don't go well together and certainly are not the same thing.

Moreover, Junzi cannot be a 'she' as the noun itself implies a masculine gender. I am afraid you must invent a new title for that

 

YM

 

I know nothing about nothing, but I agree with the lady.

 

I think there are different types:

 

- ones you would find in conventional daoist society: with lineage and doctrine and specific activity and so forth

 

- and ones you can't know that are daoist, don't wear "daoist" tags on them, and are as daoist as Dao itself

 

- and of course wannabe daoists, attracted to power tales, mostly because they can't generate any kind of day-to-day power and transformation. Life in itself should give us a sense of completion and wellbeing.

In this context, I think daoist practice would be to regain that sense of completion, wellbeing, happiness, peace with yourself and the world. Anything that goes that way, no matter what label it wears, must apriori be daoist...

 

The first two may be different layers of the same.

[YMWong]

I know nothing about nothing, but I agree with the lady.

 

While one may agree with what you are saying I fail to see how this has anything to do with what you quote i.e.

 

- junzi and daoist be a totally different kind of animal

- junzi being a term referring to man/male only

 

YM

 

EDIT: by the way, your second category "and ones you can't know that are daoist, don't wear "daoist" tags on them, and are as daoist as Dao itself" have the same characteristics of the first in terms of "lineage and doctrine": they just don't have it printed on their tee-shirt

Edited May 16, 2009 by YMWong

[Taomeow]

Junzi and 'daoist' don't go well together and certainly are not the same thing.

Moreover, Junzi cannot be a 'she' as the noun itself implies a masculine gender. I am afraid you must invent a new title for that

 

YM

 

YMWrong.

 

I refer you to the best-referenced occurrence of the term and the linguistic/historic justification of its use as signifying "a MAN or WOMAN of TAO" in "The Original I Ching Oracle: The Pure and Complete Texts with Concordance," translated under the auspices of the Eranos Foundation by Rudolf Ritsema and Shantena Augusto Sabbadini.

 

This work, which is my daily breath (sic), presents fields of meanings that were EVER associated in Chinese with any and all terms it uses, EVER uprooted by historians and linguists for each and every one of them, including this one, with exhaustive diligence you might find enviable and worthy of reverence if not emulation.

 

Cocky ain't educated. Educated ain't conceited. Conceited ain't jun zi, and jun zi is a man or woman of tao per authority greater than yours. Soooo sorry.

 

Very nice, Little1!

 

Yes, the "ultimate" taoist is tao, and I like this definition, from Ta Chuan: "the sage comes like the spring, benefitting all beings." Those of us who pay attention to the behavior of the spring might get a clue as to the behavior of a taoist sage... in particular notice that spring comes INTO the world, not away from it.

Edited May 16, 2009 by Taomeow

[YMWong]

I refer you to the best-referenced occurrence of the term and the linguistic/historic justification of its use as signifying "a MAN or WOMAN of TAO" in "The Original I Ching Oracle: The Pure and Complete Texts with Concordance," translated under the auspices of the Eranos Foundation by Rudolf Ritsema and Shantena Augusto Sabbadini.

 

I fail to see the relevance of your Yijing (translation) quotation to Daoism.

Junzi is a specific word utilized mainly by Confucians with a specific meaning, and that is NOT another way to say "daoist". Not even close.

"A man of Dao" is not relevant to Daoism either. The concenpt of Dao is not exclusive to Daoism and, I am sure you know, the earlier meaning of "Daoren" (Man/Woman of Dao) was that of a buddhist monk.

 

By the way, Junzi means 'SON of the (feudal) lord' [jun = lord / zi = son].

 

Women generally held a very specific place in old chinese society, which was more related to family and rasing kids then cultivation or official positions***, and it is obvious that for a 'sage ruler' terminology the choice of the character 'zi' (son - as in junzi) was adopted. After all, as in the example above, when 'man and women' was implied often the term 'ren' (person - as in Daoren / Man/Woman of Dao) was employed.

 

Only during the Ming dynasty Taizu emperor promulgated an official "Regulations for the Appointment of Women Mandarin" and by that time the term 'nv junzi' (woman junzi) was created. If the original term, as you imply, meant 'Man and Woman' why would they feel the need to create the term 'woman junzi' ?

 

YM

 

*** There are of course cases in history but they are extremely uncommon in numbers and certainly not the norm

 

EDIT: some more ad-hoc quotations for your reference

 

WRT the confucian meaning see =>

 

The fragile scholar: power and masculinity in Chinese culture

By Geng Song

Edition: illustrated

Published by Hong Kong University Press, 2004

 

 

WRT earlier meaning see =>

 

The book of changes (Zhouyi): a Bronze Age document

By Richard Rutt

Translated by Richard Rutt

Edition: illustrated

Published by Routledge, 2002

 

Edited May 16, 2009 by YMWong