Is there something wrong with nature?

[Meson]

[erdweir]

No official views here, just my own private drivel.

 

The western mind seems to have been mistrustful of nature since the old testament. The greeks were healthier about it, but our metaphysical myths are still mostly biblical. This problem of evil in nature obsessed the early church, and they argued endlessly about it. I feel that capitalism has inherited this alienated view of nature and we are all paying the price for it now. Islam has some of the same roots unfortunately.

 

Taoism seems to be more accepting of nature, and doesn't seem to be as obsessed with the ideas of good and evil. Evil is a tricky concept, hard to justify allot of things in the world once you accept it as valid. One thing you might ask yourself is are you really in a position to judge nature? And do we need to judge nature at all? why attach all of these moral divisions to it?

Edited May 22, 2009 by erdweir

[hagar]

[Meson]

Sure, gravity sucks, and a lot else in this existence besides! I'm not sure about bringing religious concepts into it like good and evil (although maybe I implied that, without me knowing it).

 

I think you can look at all of the things in nature and have some deep reservations. Although 'the spontaneous existence of things as they are, in theselves' carries a different meaning to natural phenomena and process in the physical, material sense of the word. Maybe there are two different natures being spoken of here, I don't know?

 

But the natural world and the physical body seem increasingly flawed or suspect to me these days, especially in my own practice which is getting less rewarding. Why aren't we allowed to judge nature? We're a part of it, but there's undeniably pain and suffering in nature! (Perhaps 'discern' or 'contemplate' is a better word than 'judge').

 

Thanks for the replies, just trying to work things through as I go along.

[DaoChild]

Nature is not good or bad.. that is only our perception of it.

[sasblamthanb]

No. Nothing is wrong with nature. It is working perfectly. This could be an opening now to explore a 'learned split' between you and nature...

[松永道]

Sure, gravity sucks, and a lot else in this existence besides! I'm not sure about bringing religious concepts into it like good and evil (although maybe I implied that, without me knowing it).

...

But the natural world and the physical body seem increasingly flawed or suspect to me these days, especially in my own practice which is getting less rewarding. Why aren't we allowed to judge nature? We're a part of it, but there's undeniably pain and suffering in nature! (Perhaps 'discern' or 'contemplate' is a better word than 'judge').

 

Aren't the things that suck the things that keep life going? Without gravity, there would be no sun, no earth. Without death, there would be no higher life (the world would be clogged with immortal amoebas!). Without destruction, there would be no creation. "Bad" things create a space for "good" things.

 

Have you noticed yet that suffering can make you improve?

 

We all see the world through the lens of our body. The appropriate question is: is nature at fault, or is your lens the problem?

[sheng zhen]

Within one cm of seemingly perfect crystal there are millions of atomic defects. Atoms being misplaced, missing, substituted by impurities, etc. If you take all these mistakes and put them together in a line, one cm of seemingly perfect crystal will cointain several km of atomic "mistakes".

 

When we see nature as "not perfect", it is only because we dont see the whole picture. We see only a humiliating small part of it.

Edited May 22, 2009 by sheng zhen

[erdweir]

Ah yes, so maybe good and evil isnt the question. Sorry for reading too much into your words. There is allot of strife in nature. And martial arts can be deadly, and beautiful at the same time. Where is the sense in all of it?

 

There are allot of ugly things in nature, but none of them are quite as ugly as what mankind has done to it. They say that if you are in tune with the universe, you will experience less strife. If you are not, you experience more. There must be allot of people out there who are not in tune from the look of things. I am one of them, but only partially. I am trying to wake up.

 

Allot of western philosophers have thought that humans are inherently violent or peaceful, I am not sure we are inherently anything. You can do anything with a person, turn them into a divine or profane being, but a plant or an animal will usually just stay what it is, unless we pervert it.

 

I too have questioned the world, and the only thing i can think of to justify it is that it must serve some purpose. what greater purpose must it serve and still be justified given all the suffering in it? the only thing I can think of is that it is a challenge for us to overcome. Maybe like the Buddhists, trying to escape the cycles of birth and death, or just in meeting it without struggle. If it doesn't have any greater purpose it must be some cruel cosmic joke huh?

 

I choose to believe nature, including all of the pain and death, is here for a reason. Some would say i am just wishing and hoping, and perhaps I am, but living in a Nihilist world view seems to dark for me. Why would we want meaning so badly if there is none? and why would we be so sensitive to the dark aspects of reality if there were no lesson in it? It's easy to say you believe in the better possibilties the world offers us a chance to pursue, it's much harder to actually pursue them. maybe the reason you are questioning the cruelty of nature is that your practice, which you say you are losing faith in, is waking you up a little? Just a guess, but awareness can be a cruel dawn, the dark night of the soul the mystic goes through before the bliss is reached.

 

Perfection, in my opinion, is not a thing of this world. we somehow have an idea of it nonetheless. This can be quite a torture, but you have to place things in their proper world. The abstractions of mathematics and philosophy are amazing, but they live up in the ether. if you want to know them better, you have to go up there where they live.

Edited May 22, 2009 by erdweir

[Ramon25]

without ugly there is no beutiful. Without sacrifice there is no reward. without hate where is love? without pain where is bliss? male and female? Lets turn it around without love there is no hate.\

 

When the world knows beauty as beauty, ugliness arises

When it knows good as good, evil arises

Thus being and non-being produce each other

Difficult and easy bring about each other

Long and short reveal each other

High and low support each other

Music and voice harmonize each other

Front and back follow each other

Therefore the sages:

Manage the work of detached actions

Conduct the teaching of no words

They work with myriad things but do not control

They create but do not possess

They act but do not presume

They succeed but do not dwell on success

It is because they do not dwell on success

That it never goes away

 

 

regarding your "practice"

It reminds me of a story. A student comes and tells his master that is meditation is not going well. That he is not feeling it and it is not flowing. the master saids dont worry it will pass. Another day the student goes to the master and saids that is meditation is going great and he can really focus, all is well. the master saids dont worry it will pass.

maybe you should find a new practice. in the words of bruce lee. Absorb what is useful and reject what is not. remember that every perception is a reflection of who we are. Ask yourself do you know?

 

Peace

[Meson]

[erdweir]

[Meson]

Edited May 24, 2009 by Meson

[松永道]

I'm not sure I've ever read anything in Daoism about nature being perfect. Nature is a system, its a set of laws. Happiness and suffering are, consequently, a derivative of how you understand and follow these laws.

 

In the Huangdi Neijing (Yellow Emperor's Internal Classic) there is a statement in the very first chapter:

 

Ni yu sheng le.

Disobeying breeds entertainment.

 

In other words, disobeying these natural laws can bring excitement, entertainment, etc in the short term, but, it's also the origin of disease. Disobedience is only taboo in so much as it hurts yourself in the long run. I would even say that Daoism shows little concern for some far removed ideal of perfection - it is immediate and practical. Understand and solve the most immediate problems in your life first.

 

This is why Daoist cultivation practice begins with physical health. First understand and apply the physical laws of nature for your own physical well-being. The fit survive. Mastering these laws first on the physical level, it become easy to apply them on the social and universal level. But to skip the physical, reaching directly for the universal is great folly. There's a reason we have a body.

 

Ren fa di, di fa tian, tian fa dao, dao fa ziran.

Man follows earth, earth follows the cosmos, the cosmos follows Dao, and Dao follows nature.

[Ramon25]

you see a parasite, i see interdependence, is see sacrifice (nature sacrificing one of its own for another of its own). You cannot say that nature is not perfect nor can you really say it is as that is a matter of perception. But by analyzing nature we see the Yin/yang and so nature must be both perfect and imperfect. It is my opinion that alot of what is being said is focusing to much on duality instead of seeing the union. What do we really know about perfection anyhow? Are we perfect? Humans are then what? Why do we consider ourselves so important. You compare cancer to lets say a bird. Now TO US the bird is beutiful but to the lion it looks like dinner. What about the cancer's reality? Do you think that a tree has any sense of a women being beutiful? What you are comparing your idea of perfect and imperfect is a snap shot of your secular reality but mine s different. So wjo is right? reality can be quite relative. You know the other day I saw a flying grasshopper and it fascinated me and so i went to take a pic of it. When I got close he flew off i watched him fly away and suddenly a bird swoops down and eats him. No i say oh no i cant belive he just died cuz of me. Then I realize that why starve the bird to save the hopper? I realized how small I am and How im connected to everything and Im just a small part of an ever turning wheel. I used to think just like you until I realized that there are very few absolutes. When you can value the snail as much as the human then you will no what is perfect and what is not. Im still on my way there so dont ask me any way good wishes

[erdweir]

Edited May 24, 2009 by erdweir

[eighty4proof]

Everything that you're referencing is based on your personal perception. Suffering and happiness are emotions which are unique to the filter that the events are being processed through. Your quest for finding perfection may lead you to find imperfection where you expected perfection as defined by your ideals and cause you disappointment because things are not as you had expected. You see parasites and disease and think that they're horrible. Another person will look at the same parasites and diseases and see them as necessary to weed out the weak of the herd so that the species can continue to evolve with the traits most necessary to survival in the current world being the ones that are passed along and view them as great. As long as you view the world through your perceptions you will also find disappointment because your expectations are not as complex as the workings of the universe and you do not have the understanding of how everything comes together, as no human does. Just as these words limit my ability to pass on the full concept to you. They are filtering my ideas through the best choices out of a limited inventory I have available but much is lost in the process and it becomes subject to further filtering for meaning by your brain. I have no way of knowing what meaning will be the outcome of your perceptions

[Ramon25]

I think you should look into kali, She may have some things to teach you. Good luck

[Meson]

Edited May 26, 2009 by Meson

[Ramon25]

Firstly i really like your post, very clear and real. I do see what your are saying but i you made me think of a quote, "knowing your limitations, allows you to exercise your true power" I dont know just though id throw that in there for fun

But Can of feel what your saying and i think that are situation is a mystery and cannot written off as evolution or creationalism. No idea what else there is!

[Meson]