What do energetic practices have to do with enlightenment?

[11:33]

Hello Tao Bums,

 

What do energetic practices have to do with enlightenment?

 

I practice Shaolin Cosmos Qigong, under my teacher Sifu Wong Kiew Kit. It makes me feel wholesome, and happy, it opens and harmonizes the channels and nourishes the organs, it makes my mind clearer. However, this is not enlightenment, though it is a start in the right direction

 

I am here on Tao Bums because I am seeking a path for myself to Enlightenment.

 

What I don't quite get is how these Taoist practices are going to lead to Enlightenment. I am specifically thinking of Lei Shan Dao, or some other form of serious Taoist cultivation method, not for example Healing Tao which I have little regard for. How does building a Dan Tian change you into an Enlightened one? What is the mechanism to this, how does that mechanism correlate with the Buddhist mechanisms to Enlightenment. Because to me I don't "understand" how they both lead to the same state.

 

This is all very important for me at this time because I am going to use the information to make an informed decision about what path I want to pursue to Enlightenment, so I appreciate your input.

 

All the Best,

11:33

[Aetherous]

What is "enlightenment" in your terms?

[orb]

What is "enlightenment" in your terms?

 

 

I was about to ask exactly the same question

[11:33]

Freedom from the cycle of rebirth.

[WhiteTiger]

Freedom from the cycle of rebirth.

 

To me Enlightenment and freedom from the cycle of rebirth as you put it are two different things.

 

Although I will say this much about energy practices, they help you get in tune with the natural order of things.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[11:33]

Earn it.

 

This doesn't make any sense. I asked what energetic practices have to do with enlightenment.

 

To me Enlightenment and freedom from the cycle of rebirth as you put it are two different things.

 

Although I will say this much about energy practices, they help you get in tune with the natural order of things.

 

Hi WhiteTiger,

 

How do you see enlightenment then?

 

All the Best,

11:33

[WhiteTiger]

Hi 11:33,

 

Well to be honest, I'm not exactly sure what I see as enlightenment is enlightenment.

 

I also know very little and have very little experience with Buddhism... long ago in my childhood there was a period of time I started to refine my living as if I was going to live like a buddhist monk... I ended up failing way before I got very far down the refinement process of living that live style. Although I would personally claim when doing things on a more energetic level a more Taoist approach I found myself not having a hard time refining my life style. Anyway what I'm saying is my understanding and experience of Buddhist practices is very little.

 

In other words, I don't feel I'm qualified to tell you what enlightenment is.

 

Although I've heard from a Buddhist Monk that the Buddha's live, or take residence in one of the heavenly branches (which is not the deepest or highest level). He later illustrated the idea very clearly to me and said, the story of Siddhartha sat under a tree for a relatively short period of time and became a Buddha. So I would assume just by that that Enlightenment is not the end all path.

 

I should try and find the post about enlightenment where Starjumper is having a deep talk with Lin and others about Enlightenment on this forum... They also come to the same conclusion... which when i read It i fully and utterly believed it... but based on my own experience I still had little understanding of what enlightenment truly is.

 

I hope that helps

 

Peace, Virtue,

Sincerely WhiteTiger

[11:33]

Thanks WhiteTiger,

 

This is my understanding of enlightenment:

 

Human beings are in a constant state of creating karma through our deluded minds. As one unfolds his mind into its pure nature these karmic attachments release; on the surface this looks like the person has become very wise and pure. As an effect they have no karmic attachments and are not reborn.

 

If one does not eliminate their attachment to phenomena that comes from desire, then even if you do many good deeds and are reborn in Heaven where you will live millions of human years in happiness, eventually you will die and be reborn. This cycle goes on for eternity. Eventually you will always cycle back down from Heaven to Hell, as change is the only constant.

 

So enlightenment is escaping this cycle of rebirth by releasing attachment to that which is phenomenal.

[doc benway]

What do energetic practices have to do with enlightenment?

 

 

[What is enlightenment?]

Freedom from the cycle of rebirth.

Enlightenment, whatever it is, must be beyond the severe limitation of human thought and ideas which is composed of language and images and known experience.

 

The enormous variety of energetic practices and meditation have a common thread of focusing attention on the physical organism and universe using senses and awareness other than thought.

 

IMO, this is a valuable experience in that it allows us to step out of our life of thinking for a bit and to experience our selves and the world directly, rather than through the superficial images created by thought.

We may think we understand enlightenment through traditions and buzz words and thought but this is like trying to drink the word water. Thought will never take us where we want to go because it is always limited to the known. The unknown must be experienced and approached in a different manner.

 

This is why I don't think it matters what particular style or flavor of practice you adhere to, any of them will give an experience of the world and self in a new way and none will ever take you to the truth. That's something only you can find if you have the energy and commitment to really look.

Edited May 23, 2009 by xuesheng

[hervoyel]

Having practiced yoga in the past, a definition of enlightenment I like is when one reaches the state named Nirvikalpa (or Nirbikalpa) Samadhi:

 

[source: Wikipedia]

Paramahansa Yogananda describes this degree of samadhi as follows:

In the most advanced state [of samadhi], nirvikalpa samadhi, the soul realizes itself and Spirit as one. The ego consciousness, the soul consciousness, and the ocean of Spirit are seen all existing together. It is the state of simultaneously watching the ocean of Spirit and the waves of creation. The individual no longer sees himself as a "John Smith" related to a particular environment; he realizes that the ocean of Spirit has become not only the wave of John Smith but also the waves of all ofter lives. In nirvikalpa the soul is simultaneously conscious of Spirit within and creation without. The divine man in the nirvikalpa state may even engage in performance of his material duties with no loss of inner God-union.

 

I am pretty sure that energetic practices represent a way to eventually achieve Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Most likely they are not the only way, and most likely they have to be supplemented by other practices. To me, they are an important part of my practice.

 

[WhiteTiger]

Hello Tao Bums,

 

What do energetic practices have to do with enlightenment?

 

 

Simple, you need to be healthy and/or cultivated enough to sit long enough time until you can finally become enlightened.

[三江源]

People with little or no knowledge of energetic practices like to talk about enlightenment.

 

 

People steeped in energetic practices, dont.

[11:33]

People with little or no knowledge of energetic practices like to talk about enlightenment.

People steeped in energetic practices, dont.

 

I just disproved this thesis. I'm steeped in energetic practices, and yet here I am asking some simple, genuine questions about enlightenment.

[三江源]

 

I just disproved this thesis. I'm steeped in energetic practices, and yet here I am asking some simple, genuine questions about enlightenment.

 

It isnt a thesis. It's an observed phenomenon.

[11:33]

So do you want to talk about enlightenment with us or what?

 

...

 

I was just at the book store and ended up reading 'random' parts of Chronicles of Tao. I didn't think i'd like it because I heard that it stretched the truth, but I did enjoy the parts I flipped to a lot. There were discussions between the main character and the two immortal Taoists that he was being taught by, all about the Taoist views on immortality and freedom from the cycle of rebirth! Wonderful, exactly what I was wanting to know more about. Before this, I wasn't sure if Taoists were cultivating to leave the cycle of rebirth or not...

Edited May 23, 2009 by 11:33

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[11:33]

You asked how to escape from the cycle of death and rebirth, that is what I quoted, and that is what you got an answer to.

 

I would be pleased if anyone can point me towards a CHINESE book or document that refers to 'Lei Shan Dao'.

 

If you aren't going to read the thread in full then don't post. I never asked any such thing. And you didn't quote me saying that. You quoted me describing what enlightenment is in my terms.

Edited May 24, 2009 by 11:33

[Ken]

You asked how to escape from the cycle of death and rebirth, that is what I quoted, and that is what you got an answer to.

 

I would be pleased if anyone can point me towards a CHINESE book or document that refers to 'Lei Shan Dao'.

 

I think Mike has it right there, you need to "earn" the way to escape from the cycle of death and rebirth. There is no energetic practices that can leads you to "englihtenment", whatever that mean.

 

Also "Lei Shan Dao" is a marketing term in the west that surfaced in the last few years, no such terminology is used or seen in any Chinese book or document.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Ken]

Thank you Ken. I haven't seen the term mentioned outside of what David Verdesi has written.

 

I am also curious as to who has authorized DV to teach? In my experience those who are authorized to teach have certificates to prove it, with official stamps and/or personal chops. I've not seen any such certificates shown on his website or anywhere else. Can anyone provide some evidence that DV has been authorized to teach? Maybe he has, I don't know. I would like to see some evidence though, especially given the large sums of money being charged and the claims being made.

 

Master Wang had given out certificates to quite a few people that i know of so that they can spread the Longmen Teahings to the west. Not sure if DV has one. In any case I don't think he is teaching any of Master Wang's practice so it's not even a relevant question. I think it's really doesn't matter how much he charge or what he teaches to his followers, it's their choice and everyone deserve the teacher they have.

[WhiteTiger]

I think it's really doesn't matter how much he charge or what he teaches to his followers, it's their choice and everyone deserve the teacher they have.

 

Amen!

 

So do you want to talk about enlightenment with us or what?

 

...

 

I was just at the book store and ended up reading 'random' parts of Chronicles of Tao. I didn't think i'd like it because I heard that it stretched the truth, but I did enjoy the parts I flipped to a lot. There were discussions between the main character and the two immortal Taoists that he was being taught by, all about the Taoist views on immortality and freedom from the cycle of rebirth! Wonderful, exactly what I was wanting to know more about. Before this, I wasn't sure if Taoists were cultivating to leave the cycle of rebirth or not...

 

Well it's my mere understanding that before Taoists first step is to end this cycle.

 

When i say first step it is a extreme generalization.

 

Its been pointed out by some people whom seem to be well respected on these forums, That the Quanzhen school is a mixture of Taoism, Confucianism, and Buddhism.

 

Furthermore, Things that I understand as Buddhist practices seem to be extremely well described in Chronicles of Tao quite vividly too. I think reading Chronicles of Tao and basing it on your own personal understanding is definately opening yourself up to be schooled in stuff you really may know little about.

Edited May 24, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[Creation]

I would be pleased if anyone can point me towards a CHINESE book or document that refers to 'Lei Shan Dao'.

Hi Mike.

 

It is clear enough that DV made up the classification into the 6 paths of the Dao, and that he made up most if not all of the names he uses. But I have the impression that the stuff in Mo Pai and similar schools does not deal with cultivating the golden elixir or immortal embryo, things that seem to be common to all the alchemical schools of Daoism. Could it not be said that this is a different approach to the Dao, and thus perhaps deserving of it's own name? Or have I missed the essence, and am getting caught up on words? You seem like a good guy to ask about this, so anything you can share would be appreciated.

 

Best regards,

Tyler

 

On a similar note, how much historical documentation is there of the kind of stuff done in mo pai? It really seems like it has been more underground than the alchemical and "religious" forms of Daoism. Perhaps it is all well known in the Orient but Westerners are only recently hearing about it.

 

---

 

Since that issue is tangential to the main post, I'll give my (very inexperienced) view on the matter of the relationship between energetic practices and enlightenment. Not knowing what the highest enlightenment is, I am content to try to increase in wisdom and virtue, and consequently to work through all the egotistical tendencies and cravings that prevent me from being virtuous. Seeing as the body, chi, emotions, mind, and any other levels of being are all one interconnected whole, working with the body and chi provides a good foundation for and can assist in getting to the mental and spiritual levels, which I suppose is where the real work takes place. What does any of this have to do with liberation from samsara? How should I know?

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker