What do energetic practices have to do with enlightenment?

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[Ken]

 

That is true, on a simple level. However if the Dao had not given others the means to intervene, then it would be the case. Should people choose to do something against counsel, then yes, ultimately they reap what they sow.

 

I think things will take care of themselves. I know quite a few of his ex-students have already discontinued their assoication with Verdesi and want nothing to do with him. Verdesi will reap what he sows one day, most of his students are John Chnag wannabe and Verdesi neatly filled their desire for power, no one can help these people.

 

 

 

I don't know or pretend to know all the different terminology for the different methods and schools. However, I am quite sure there are existing Chinese terms. This being the case, why not simply use the names and terms the schools themselves use? Why invent other terms, especially-and this I think is VERY significant-you can't speak or read the language? My understanding is DV is far from proficient in Han Yu, so how can he justify inventing his own names? Also, how can a person start defining what something is or isn't if they themselves have not mastered the subject?

In so far as there are specific terms to describe phenomena, I believe they already exist. So, the practices, what they do, the type of qi, etc, yes, there are names. Are all of these terms public knowledge? I don't know. I expect not.

 

 

 

I have seen John Chang video and recently read the book by Kostas, one thing that puzzles me is why are people calling him a "Taoist Immortal", John Chang is not a Daoist/Taoist, he is a Mohist. Mohists are as different to Daoists are as Confuciusists are to Buddhists. Moism was loosely a military sect, the mohists are trained to defend cities and fight in wars. One of my friend is a Mohist, but he is not trained in the art as Johng Chang did, my friend is from the "Swordman" lineage, he had learnt the Mohist sword technique, war formations and other Mohist magics. I showed him John Chang video and told him Mr. Chang said he is a mohist, my friend instantly recognise that Mr. Chang belongs to what he would say the equivalent of a "Special Force unit" within Mohist organisation. Most Mohist can't be trained in the neigong special unit since in my friend's words "most mohists can't spend dozen of years to train in that art, most of them need to be trained in effective sword fighting techniques quickly to fight in war so they can kill the enemy in a few moves". Anyway, that's just some interesting side notes i know about Moism.

 

With regard to the techniques of Mr. Chang, I have talked to and showed the video to another friend of mine whose Master can do similar things as Mr. Chang, e.g. can actually produce electric sparks if he hold a metal bars quite an impressive feat, we both agree that the Mohists and Mr. Chang's lineage ancestors have gotten hold of a sub-branch of a Doaist Magic called "Lei Fa" (translated as Thunder method, perhaps that's where DV got his idea for the name) since Mr Chang has said the he practiced "Ba Lei Quan" (right?), and this sounds very similar to what a Lei Fa method will be called and his techniques shown are similar to what Lei Fa can do. For example, there are "Wu Lei Zhang" (Five thunder palm) and "Wu Lei Huo" (five thunder fire) which can do similars things to what was described in Kosta's book. In any case Lei Fa is not the path to Dao, it's application of qi by Daoist to help ordinary folks or in the Mohist's case, it's an application to fight in war.

Edited May 24, 2009 by Ken

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[YMWong]

Thank you Ken. I haven't seen the term mentioned outside of what David Verdesi has written.

 

I am also curious as to who has authorized DV to teach? In my experience those who are authorized to teach have certificates to prove it, with official stamps and/or personal chops.

 

Hello Mike,

 

while you are right-on and I fully agree with much of what you say about DV, certification is actually quite uncommon in traditional daoism. Historically speaking only very few lineages, Zhengyi of course comes to mind, do issue official certifications to the initiate while most of the others don't.

WLP's kind of certification is a very modern one which he may, I guess, see as necessary in the modern world.

 

I have seen John Chang video and recently read the book by Kostas, one thing that puzzles me is why are people calling him a "Taoist Immortal", John Chang is not a Daoist/Taoist, he is a Mohist.

 

Hi Ken,

 

Djiang's line might have been generated by Mozi and/or his group but in a couple of thousand years it certainly fell to the influence of daoism - judging by what he does and practices. As you say here:

 

With regard to the techniques of Mr. Chang, I have talked to and showed the video to another friend of mine whose Master can do similar things as Mr. Chang, e.g. can actually produce electric sparks if he hold a metal bars quite an impressive feat, we both agree that the Mohists and Mr. Chang's lineage ancestors have gotten hold of a sub-branch of a Doaist Magic called "Lei Fa" [...]

 

Djiang's method is not standard 'leifa' (thunder method) for sure, it is simply too different from the actual system that - since the late Song - has been incorporated in many schools which - however - keep common basics.

 

Indonesian Daoism has a 'local' flavour which is seldom seen in the Mainland, but it is sort of a standard in Indonesia and I have found common practices and terminology to be used by various groups with little or no contact. Something similar, although with a different twist, happens in Taiwan.

 

Best

 

YM

[11:33]

Mike,

 

The whole issue is that you wrote a two word response that doesn't answer or have to do with the question asked. That conveyed nothing to me. This post at least conveyed what you were trying to say, now I can actually reply and converse with you.

 

Your whole post assumes I know nothing. You talk in a manner assuming I have no exposure or no experience. Which isn't the case. But it tells a lot about who you are.

 

You shouldn't explain things to people before you know where they are coming from. It's a big waste of time.

 

You can work as hard as you want toward enlightenment, but if the method is shoddy, your life will have been a waste. (not suggesting this is the case with you)

 

Politeness is nice, even if you don't realise someone is trying to help you

Your post was quite impolite, so I forgive your impoliteness. Now let me ask you, how can you help someone you don't even know or understand? Do you really think quippy posts like "Earn it." mean anything out of context? They don't in my opinion. You're not some guru who can say anything and I'll bow to your wisdom. Wow, you sweated for an hour, great, you sure are earning it. You are so full of assumptions about me, is this how you talk to everyone? It shows a lack of communication ability, when you talk to someone without asking simple questions to get to understand their motivation, history, or perspective.

 

These kinds of quotes show how incapable of reading properly you are:

'I want to escape death and rebirth' strikes me as selfish and childish.

That is the definition for enlightenment, which someone asked me for, and which is the highest point of understanding or wisdom a human can have, and yet the desire for this wisdom is "childish" to you. I think you're a bit too full of yourself. Maybe check that in the mirror once or twice.

 

Work smart, then you can work hard.

 

...

 

I'm not interested in an argument. I only think your approach to discussion is and was condescending. How about we just talk like equals? Which means if you have a question about my motives or perspective, you ask me first, then talk to me about what I really think, rather than talk to the imaginary person you put in my place.

 

All the Best,

11:33

 

...

 

On a related note, I highly recommend I think it is the fourth habit fromThe Seven Habits of Highly Effective People, called "Seek first to understand, before being understood"... It basically explains that you cannot really explain something to someone effectively without first getting to know in some level of depth the person you are explaining to.

 

Truce. I'm going to go practice now. No, I'm not over here pissed off.

 

Have a lovely day. Seriously.

 

 

Friend,

 

What is important here? Your goal-'enlightenment'-I expect, not the means of getting there. Pardon me for cutting to the chase.

 

Of course you are entitled to set what criteria you wish. However, I am trying to help you here. I write as someone who has sat in John Chang's house, eaten with him at his invitation, (he was always a very kind and polite host to visitors, even though we scarcely deserved it), felt his energy, practised his method, been tested by him, watched keris shoot out from their sarong at his calling, listened to a spirit talking at his summons, etc. Aside from that I practice now with a teacher who can also give out electric like qi among other things. There is more I could write but I think this makes the point.

 

The above does not mean I am 'special', but it does mean I have some experience here, rather than just opinion. It is also a public forum, so you don't get to pick and choose who participates or what they write. Politeness is nice, even if you don't realise someone is trying to help you.

 

The fact is there are monks in Thailand who can do the things John Chang can. This is aside the point.

 

If you believe in the concept of death and rebirth, then you must also believe the concepts of karma and the Will of Heaven. Karma relates to your actions in this life and past lives. That you have to work through. If Heaven believes you have truly attained something, then perhaps you will move onto the next level. If Heaven decides otherwise you won't.

 

So, effort and the blessing of Heaven. Not my ideas, and by all means choose to believe or follow whatever you wish. No matter to me one way or the other.

 

As an aside, I just spent the last hour and a half sweating like a bastard training not because I want to escape anything, but rather FACE my true nature. Any 'abilities' gained I hope to use to help others. Not for brownie points but because that is where my heart leads me. 'I want to escape death and rebirth' strikes me as selfish and childish. You want something, you have to give something first.

 

Earn it.

Edited May 24, 2009 by 11:33

[三江源]

heh heh.

 

 

One of the habits of highly effective

students is to stop expecting to be spoon fed.

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[YMWong]

How would a Chinese school of Daoism or martial arts issue recognition to a student that they are qualified to teach? I've seen and heard of banners in some gong fu schools. Any details you could provide would be appreciated.

 

'Recognition' is not what one daoist would be looking for. The 'daoist world' is a most varied one, daoist schools in history have taken the most different shapes from huge lectures/groups of hundreds to one-on-one transmission to very formal temple initiation.

In every school all students have and know their place, who is senior and who is junior. Moreover, most daoists have/had the habit or roaming the mountains to futher their studies with masters from different schools, hence the term 'travelling (studing) with master so-and-so'. This to say that there is really no standard and every school and teacher have his own method.

 

Official certifications have been issued by the large groups that, in history, have been at times 'State Religion' (a term to be taken with a grain of salt as China was seldom an all-unified country in reality) and that had been trying to create a structure that could adhere somehow to the Confucian elite which would gave them a sort of control over the whole organization

So for instance the Zhengyi (Celestial Master) school developed a very complex system in which Daoists were initiated at certain specific 'registers' identified by 'levels' (pin) modeled on the Confucian officials system. Each register would confer the Daoist initiate with specific control over specific deities/spirits and this information was made public on the initiation certificate.

 

YM

[11:33]

The whole issue seems to be about your hurt and damaged ego, judging from your personal diatribe.

 

You're not worth talking to.

 

As far as your desire, I'll give you another scattering of words. 'Straw dogs' and 'Heaven'.

 

In regards to your little dig about my practice, I'll let you ponder on something the artist Whistler once said. When asked how he could have charged 200 guineas for a painting that took two days to 'knock off', Whistler replied, 'I ask it for the knowledge of a lifetime'.

 

The value is not in the hour, but the lifetimes accumulation of them. The value of the words comes from the same thing. Not the quantity, or the time taken to write them but the experience and understanding behind them. I think you might find Zen koans a world of pain if what I wrote get such a violent reaction.

 

Fine, you think I am arrogant and condescending. Guilty-and irrelevant. It doesn't change that what I write, on this subject matter, is based on experience in matters that frankly you don't have. I know this from what you have written. In this you are not my equal.

 

Your rattle went that way

 

Regarding the hurt and damaged ego, I'm pretty sure any old wife-beater qould say that. Fact is they're still abusive.

 

Well you're not worth exchanging with. I'll remember to ignore your arrogant and condescending stupidity from now on.

 

heh heh.

One of the habits of highly effective

students is to stop expecting to be spoon fed.

 

Who's the student here? If someone thinks they're my teacher who doesn't know me, well, that's their mistake to handle.

 

This is a discussion forum not a school.

 

Enjoy your giant egos you two.

 

Peace.

Edited May 24, 2009 by 11:33

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[bailey]

11:33 - your attempt to deceive did not go unnoticed.

 

In your last post, you altered mjjbecker's words, and tried to pass it off as his own quoted words.

 

[(mjjbecker @ May 24 2009, 09:41 AM)]

 

The whole issue seems to be about your hurt and damaged ego, judging from your personal diatribe.

 

You're not worth talking to.

 

As far as your desire, I'll give you another scattering of words. 'Straw dogs' and 'Heaven'.

 

(....)

 

 

The words "You're not worth talking to." were NOT in mjjbecker's post. Trying to make mjjbecker unseemly by adding those words to his post, you have revealed yourself.

 

 

 

******************

Edit to add:

 

mjjbecker - we posted at the same time.

 

You dont need me to defend you, nor was I.

 

I've a personal dislike for deception. I dont care who is doing it or why; if I see it I shine a light on it. No more, no less.

 

My nature.

Edited May 24, 2009 by bailey

[11:33]

I did not write 'You're not worth talking to'.

 

Discussing something on a forum does not equate to domestic violence. It does not come close. I grew up with it and witnessed some horrible things in the process. You go to far with that comment, you really do.

 

If you don't like what someone writes, say so but without personal attacks. The issue here is all about your reaction, which is extreme to say the least.

 

Cat is a sweetheart and you will win no friends around here for having a go at her.

 

In answer to your question as to who is a student around here, anyone who has an open enough mind to learn and grow. That does indeed seem to exclude you, but that is your choice.

 

Mike,

 

I don't know what happened with the quote, I just hit the quote button. Believe me or don't. Now that I think about it, I probably accidentally overwrote it with my own words. Which I would stand behind saying to you, because it seems to me you'd rather talk about things have nothing to do with what I am asking about.

 

The issue is that I asked "What do energetic practices have to do with enlightenment?" and you chose to tell me to earn it. That is like me saying, "what's for dinner?" and you saying, "dinner's at 5pm be there sharp".

 

Then Cat, well what is she talking about? It doesn't make any sense. What's up with [what seems like] elitism over here? She said something along the lines of "people who have genuine energetic practices don't talk about enlightenment" That comment's ridiculous, and its rude. I suppose she's the one with the genuine energetic practice?

 

I never claimed to be enlightened, nor to want to have it handed to me wrapped in a soft blanket.

 

Peace.

Edited May 24, 2009 by 11:33

[11:33]

...

 

bailey,

 

I also have a dislike for deception. One of my highest guiding forces is to always tell the truth. I must have inadvertently typed over part of Mike's post. My bad

 

...

 

Here's something I wrote in the first post of this thread. I'd like to take it back to the purpose of the thread.

 

How does building a Dan Tian change you into an Enlightened one? What is the mechanism to this, how does that mechanism correlate with the Buddhist mechanisms to Enlightenment. Because to me I don't understand how they both lead to the same state.

[Aetherous]

In my opinion, real energy practices have the power to loosen the bonds of the mind, which can be mistaken for enlightenment.

 

I personally define enlightenment as a shift in perception so that there's no self experiencing. But it's possible to experience expanded states of consciousness, where "you" still seem to be the center of the universe. That's not 'it'. Real enlightenment, in my opinion, is center-less.

 

If you're witnessing a centerlessness, it's still not it...

 

It could be said that no self is experienced in dreaming sometimes, or deep sleep, and in samadhi sometimes. But that's still not enlightenment to me. It's not - not experiencing a self. It's an explosion of the witness into all things...which is a bad description but whatever.

 

So, energy practices might be cultivating a different kind of enlightenment than what I define. Or enlightenment might be a side effect of the practices. Or enlightenment brings about true energy work. Who knows...the way to find out is to practice and attain and learn the true effects.

 

_/\_

[11:33]

Scotty, Thank you!!!!!!

 

I agree.

 

It is my working opinion so far that energy practices can be a good foundation for intense spiritual work. It might not be evident from my last few posts, but the energy work I do enhances some spiritual qualities like compassion and clarity of mind. It also enhances courage and righteousness, so maybe I got a little bit excessively courageous and righteous above Shaolin Cosmos Qigong encourages letting-go and emptying the mind, which are at least a beginning to spiritual practice. Also, you learn not to be attached to outcomes, or to phenomena that may arise while practicing. That is also useful.

 

But at the end of the day these "spiritual qualities" are quite firmly entrenched in the phenomenal.

 

You hear of enlightened Buddhist masters who don't do qigong. (Am I right on that?) Yet, in Taoist cultivation there is tons of qigong... Hmmm...

 

Thanks for your post Scotty.

 

_/\_

 

11:33

 

In my opinion, real energy practices have the power to loosen the bonds of the mind, which can be mistaken for enlightenment.

 

I personally define enlightenment as a shift in perception so that there's no self experiencing. But it's possible to experience expanded states of consciousness, where "you" still seem to be the center of the universe. That's not 'it'. Real enlightenment, in my opinion, is center-less.

 

If you're witnessing a centerlessness, it's still not it...

 

It could be said that no self is experienced in dreaming sometimes, or deep sleep, and in samadhi sometimes. But that's still not enlightenment to me. It's not - not experiencing a self. It's an explosion of the witness into all things...which is a bad description but whatever.

 

So, energy practices might be cultivating a different kind of enlightenment than what I define. Or enlightenment might be a side effect of the practices. Or enlightenment brings about true energy work. Who knows...the way to find out is to practice and attain and learn the true effects.

 

_/\_

[Creation]

Mjjbecker, YMWong, and Ken,

 

Thank you all so much for the great info. It's so refreshing to get some straight talk about John Chang and the Mo Pai.

 

Incidentally, next time someone points to John Chang as someone who is enlightened/immortal I can point them here. (Well maybe he is some type of immortal, but certainly not anything like "one with the Dao".)

[erdweir]

 

What I don't quite get is how these Taoist practices are going to lead to Enlightenment. I am specifically thinking of Lei Shan Dao, or some other form of serious Taoist cultivation method, not for example Healing Tao which I have little regard for. How does building a Dan Tian change you into an Enlightened one? What is the mechanism to this, how does that mechanism correlate with the Buddhist mechanisms to Enlightenment. Because to me I don't "understand" how they both lead to the same state.

 

 

Hey 11:33, I think the building up of energy in the dantien is necessary for the transformations that occur in the later stages of internal alchemy. The Healing Tao gives a roadmap for this process, but I agree with you, I dont have much trust in it. You know Michael Winn admitted on his forum that Mantak Chia had never even done the Kan and Li practices, so what is he publishing? Guesses? Someone else's untried instructions? And I would listen to all the people trying to turn you away from the Lei Shan Dao stuff. The whole thing is highly suspect. But anyway, lets get back to the Dantien... once you have enough Jing, you transform it into Chi, and then transform Chi to Shen, etc. In the begging you just have to collect enough energy to start. You have to have something to transform.

 

There are other taoists out there who teach internal alchemy, some of them are at taoists spots in china like Wudang and Huashan, or just hanging out in their acupuncture shops. It's had to say whether the goal of internal alchemy is enlightenment or immortality or oneness with the tao. I guess there are various uses for it. I know some people who practice Bon Internal Alchemy, but I dont know much about it. suppsedly there are allot of similarities and differences. then there are the western methods, Mayan ones, etc.

 

and as far as buddhist masters who dont practice Qi Gong, yes, perhaps, but many of the buddhists, especially the tantric ones from tibet and nepal, are doing energy culitvation, they just call it Pranayama and Kundalini and so forth. Prana and Chi are the same thing. The greeks called it Pneuma, there are lots of names and allot of ways to cultivate energy. Look at the dances in the end of the meetings with remarkable men film if you want to see some weird sufi alternatives..

 

And Creation, If you want to trust Kosta's book about Chang, Chang says in the book that he is not a Taoist, he is a teacher of a type of kung fu called simply nei kung. And yet his practices reek of taoist concepts, like yin and yang, so maybe he is using taoist methods without the doctrines? had to say exactly.

Edited May 24, 2009 by erdweir

[de_paradise]

If you look at enlightenment as the physiological process of jing to chi to shen, as Taoists do, then you can understand the role of energy practises. Within these processes are many mini physiological processes-- I'm including the etheric and subtle bodies in the term physiological--these processes are in the main clearing impurities, opening and creating new channels, fluids, and other necessary "hardware" the body must generate to reach another "level". If you want large bicepts, you do arm curls. If you want to bolster the energy flow, or certain energy flows, or create certain interactions in your etheric body, well then, sir, you can do energy practices.

 

Its that simple.

 

For some reason, many people, even here, see enlightenment as some kind of cognitive readjustment only. True one can have enlightenment experiences, but to have a stable enlightenment, the jing-chi-shen framework of physiological evolution cannot be avoided.

[trailmaker]

If you look at enlightenment as the physiological process of jing to chi to shen, as Taoists do, then you can understand the role of energy practises. Within these processes are many mini physiological processes-- I'm including the etheric and subtle bodies in the term physiological--these processes are in the main clearing impurities, opening and creating new channels, fluids, and other necessary "hardware" the body must generate to reach another "level". If you want large bicepts, you do arm curls. If you want to bolster the energy flow, or certain energy flows, or create certain interactions in your etheric body, well then, sir, you can do energy practices.

 

Its that simple.

 

For some reason, many people, even here, see enlightenment as some kind of cognitive readjustment only. True one can have enlightenment experiences, but to have a stable enlightenment, the jing-chi-shen framework of physiological evolution cannot be avoided.

 

 

jing-chi-shen 24/7.

[WhiteTiger]

heh heh.

One of the habits of highly effective

students is to stop expecting to be spoon fed.

 

I'm interested... this is your second post showing yourself with such brute harshness?

 

It just so happens sometimes students are spoon fed high quality knowledge/wisdom and sometimes poor quality knowledge/wisdom as well as some students are spoon fed actual ability. Its when people are spoon fed actual ability they really don't know how to earn it through using proper methods... and possibly hard work.

 

I say this because I understand and have seen both parts of the spectrum. (sadly rarely a teacher did give me both high quality knowledge/wisdom and wanted me to work hard.)

[三江源]

 

 

I'm interested... this is your second post showing yourself with such brute harshness?

 

I ripped this poster off my front door when I got home tonight, White Tiger.

 

It's as well to know what you're dealing with, so I'm fessing up.

[WhiteTiger]

It's as well to know what you're dealing with, so I'm fessing up.

 

Hilarious poster... I am saying this because I know in the many other posts you never at all seem the way you do in this topic. You've always seemed to be a completely compassionate person. That sometimes Cat gave some nice wisdom also. (we have a possitive history basically) Btw 11:33, she has never really seemed to act like this towards me before...

 

The above quote though... I don't know how to take... sarcasm? Serious? What are you referencing it towards?

I guess I shouldn't asked... My best guess was your being extremely compassionate... (Somethings I definately could use and have)

 

Thank you for the laugh.

Edited May 25, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[Birch]

Oh man, the 'What is enlightenment' thread is back!

 

Scott, is this your doing;-)?

[Aetherous]

I swear I had nothing to do with it!