What do energetic practices have to do with enlightenment?

[xenolith]

...lots do they...earliest posts reveal...

...reminders few soon will be...

 

...good luck to you...

[三江源]

Hey Tigre Blanc!

 

I'm glad you liked the poster, ha!

 

I try to treat others as I would like to be treated, basically. If I was being literal minded, or unwilling to extrapolate, or taking myself too seriously, I'd poke meself in the ribs.

 

hey ho. There are many ways to cook eggs.

 

[Kronos]

I am also curious as to who has authorized DV to teach? In my experience those who are authorized to teach have certificates to prove it, with official stamps and/or personal chops. I've not seen any such certificates shown on his website or anywhere else.

 

Hi mjjbecker

 

DV is NOT authorized to teach. As far as I know there are actually 3 people autorized by Master Wang: Qin Ling, Victor Xiao and Kathy Li.

Each one has a certificate with fingerprints and signature of Master Wang.

 

Greetings from Switzerland :-)

[orb]

Oh man, the 'What is enlightenment' thread is back!

 

 

 

Isn't it great ? Enlightenment, David Verdessi, John Chang ..... all in one mighty thread. Even Kat shows her true identity by revealling her claws .... Who says TTB is loosing it's magic ???

[Epicurious]

goddam...hahahahahaha...sheeet...dr daisy rears his ugly turtle head again just like thatn wont flush away down the john...qualifications....hmmmm...walter mitty school o horseshit and the barnum ones born every minute certificates printed on THE finest john roll...yeah...the dudes a john roll alrite...11.33 n white tigger...wtf you boys doin ralin on a lady for..u got some issues with a woman tellin you shit straight...shit yeah...that 'compassion jest glows from the page...grow tf UP children...damn...and xenospliff...dude...shit...dont be watchin those star wars movies or playin with your toys while drawin on those homemade herbals son...shit...when your mama catches you she aint gonna be happy...

[Kronos]

great

[11:33]

lol

[松永道]

It just so happens sometimes students are spoon fed high quality knowledge/wisdom and sometimes poor quality knowledge/wisdom as well as some students are spoon fed actual ability. Its when people are spoon fed actual ability they really don't know how to earn it through using proper methods... and possibly hard work.

 

I say this because I understand and have seen both parts of the spectrum. (sadly rarely a teacher did give me both high quality knowledge/wisdom and wanted me to work hard.)

 

If a teacher spoon feeds his student, he is telling, not teaching. And it's to the student's great detriment.

 

All wisdom is earned. Even the wisest words are empty shells without your own understanding to fill them in. And just the same as wisdom, all ability is worked for. Even natural talent needs development.

 

Techniques without gongfu, wise words without wisdom, these are the merits of spoon feeding.

[Creation]

"Only one who bursts with eagerness do I instruct; only one who bubbles with excitement, do I enlighten. If I hold up one corner and a man cannot come back to me with the other three, I do not continue the lesson."

-Confucius

 

Notice how Master Kong associates eagerness to learn with the willingness to do a good part of the work yourself. This is an important point.

[11:33]

What some of you may be missing is that there is no traditional Master-Student relationship being played out here on TaoBums.

 

If, for example, I was Confucious' disciple, the entire situation would be different. For one Confucious would know me personally. He'd know my past. He'd know what I don't know, what I know, and where I am in the middle Confucious, being a master teacher, I would give my utmost attention to.

 

If any of you are Taoist/Buddhist/other masters, please make it known, and I will take your opinion (About me) with more care.

 

Otherwise, your opinion (about me) is an opinion. Floating out in cyber space, that opinion about me really only has two ways of being of value to me: is it from a person who knows me, knows where I am coming from? Or is it from a master, who not even knowing me has so much insight that I will consider carefully what is said. Without either of those things then it's just two students AT BEST, two talking heads AT WORST.

 

It's not personal. But being around cyberspace long enough there are opinions everywhere. If I didn't have filters in place, that would be a mess.

Edited May 26, 2009 by 11:33

[erdweir]

What some of you may be missing is that there is no traditional Master-Student relationship being played out here on TaoBums.

 

If, for example, I was Confucious' disciple, the entire situation would be different. For one Confucious would know me personally. He'd know my past. He'd know what I don't know, what I know, and where I am in the middle Confucious, being a master teacher, I would give my utmost attention to.

 

If any of you are Taoist/Buddhist/other masters, please make it known, and I will take your opinion with more care.

 

Otherwise, your opinion is an opinion. Floating out in cyber space, that opinion about me really only has two ways of being of value to me: is it from a person who knows me, knows where I am coming from? Or is it from a master, who not even knowing me has so much insight that I will consider carefully what is said. Without either of those things then it's just two students AT BEST, two talking heads AT WORST.

 

It's not personal. But being around cyberspace long enough there are opinions everywhere. If I didn't have filters in place, that would be a mess.

 

I would venture so far to say that nobody is posing as your guru here. Maybe some people are impatient with you, but maybe you are a bit impatient yourself. and so what if they are? don't let it get to you.

 

lets talk about opinion for a minute. Plato talks about the difference between opinion and knowledge in the Republic. Knowledge is distinguished from opinion by the understanding of the principles of a thing. if you understand principles, then you have knowledge and can teach what you know. If you dont, all you have is opinion, which does not have to be wrong, you can have the right opinion too, you just dont know why you are right.

 

some people here offer their opinions, but some actually know what they are talking about. I personally would not assume people trying to clue you in on things are just talking out their ass. And say you are right, and we are all doing just that, so whay talk to us then? You seem very sure of your own view of this community, but keep in mind if its all just bullshitting, than that applies to you as well.

 

Just take what you want from it and listen to yourself above all. Even a great teacher cant make decisions for you, or see everything about you.

 

this is a place to share, and I would value it as such. I just try to focus on finding out things here myself, it's good for that.

Edited May 26, 2009 by erdweir

[The Way 1]

In my understanding Taoist practices don't lead you to enlightenment, although i could be wrong in saying that. If you want to find freedom from re-birth you should probably practice buddhism or simply buddhist meditation.

[11:33]

Erdweir,

 

It's all good. Sometimes in life, not everyone is what you think.

 

To be clear I didn't mean that everyone's thoughts are useless. I meant everyone's opinions ABOUT ME are, unless they take the time to really understand where I'm coming from. That's all. Nothing more nothing less.

 

In the future if I suspect someone is saying something to me that is based in not even knowing anything about me I will respond with this:

 

<Fart Sound>

 

Simple as that.

[sasblamthanb]

[三江源]

 

If a teacher spoon feeds his student, he is telling, not teaching. And it's to the student's great detriment.

 

All wisdom is earned. Even the wisest words are empty shells without your own understanding to fill them in. And just the same as wisdom, all ability is worked for. Even natural talent needs development.

 

Techniques without gongfu, wise words without wisdom, these are the merits of spoon feeding.

 

Yes.

 

There's the answer you think you want, and then there's the answer you need, and they arent always the same thing...

[Trunk]

Probably you-all have already mentioned,

but the substance-to-light

transformation

has a lot to do with

"enlightenment".

[gendao]

If you just want to enlighten your mind, then you don't need to. This is more typical of mainstream Buddhists.

But Taoists (and some others) believe that if you want "full body" enlightenment, then you need to do energetic cultivation too.

 

Note that "Rainbow Body" is found only amongst Tibetan Buddhists, not mainstream Buddhists. This is probably due to the fact that Tibetan Buddhism has indigenous Bon energetic cultivation mixed in.

 

The Buddha himself, who supposedly chose to die at 80, had a quite remarkable passing, but no Rainbow Body.

 

 

However, note that my understanding here is vague, speculative and could admittedly be wrong.

Edited May 26, 2009 by vortex

[松永道]

If, for example, I was Confucious' disciple, the entire situation would be different. For one Confucious would know me personally. He'd know my past. He'd know what I don't know, what I know, and where I am in the middle Confucious, being a master teacher, I would give my utmost attention to.

 

Confucious had hundreds, if not thousands of disciples. He certainly didn't share an intimate relation with all of them.

 

But this also wasn't his doctrine. One of his often quoted pearls of wisdom (at least in China) translates as: "For every three people walking down the street, one could be my teacher." Does he mean master? No. Teacher. From one third of all people he could learn something. Personally, I would say that ratio is even higher. Now this can't be considered teaching in the traditional sense, but, by observing who they are and I react to them - I learn about life and about myself. Everything we see and experience can be a mirror.

 

Continuing about teacher styles, stories also claim Laozi's teacher taught him nothing at all and that's why Laozi was so wise (the implication is that his teacher asked questions but never gave answers).

 

Then said a teacher, "Speak to us of Teaching."

 

And he said:

 

No man can reveal to you aught but that which already lies half asleep in the dawning of our knowledge.

The teacher who walks in the shadow of the temple, among his followers, gives not of his wisdom but rather of his faith and his lovingness.

If he is indeed wise he does not bid you enter the house of his wisdom, but rather leads you to the threshold of your own mind.

The astronomer may speak to you of his understanding of space, but he cannot give you his understanding.

The musician may sing to you of the rhythm which is in all space, but he cannot give you the ear which arrests the rhythm nor the voice that echoes it.

And he who is versed in the science of numbers can tell of the regions of weight and measure, but he cannot conduct you thither.

For the vision of one man lends not its wings to another man.

And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth.

 

-- Kahlil Gibran

[WhiteTiger]

Confucious had hundreds, if not thousands of disciples. He certainly didn't share an intimate relation with all of them.

 

But this also wasn't his doctrine. One of his often quoted pearls of wisdom (at least in China) translates as: "For every three people walking down the street, one could be my teacher." Does he mean master? No. Teacher. From one third of all people he could learn something. Personally, I would say that ratio is even higher. Now this can't be considered teaching in the traditional sense, but, by observing who they are and I react to them - I learn about life and about myself. Everything we see and experience can be a mirror.

 

Continuing about teacher styles, stories also claim Laozi's teacher taught him nothing at all and that's why Laozi was so wise (the implication is that his teacher asked questions but never gave answers).

 

Then said a teacher, "Speak to us of Teaching."

 

And he said:

 

No man can reveal to you aught but that which already lies half asleep in the dawning of our knowledge.

The teacher who walks in the shadow of the temple, among his followers, gives not of his wisdom but rather of his faith and his lovingness.

If he is indeed wise he does not bid you enter the house of his wisdom, but rather leads you to the threshold of your own mind.

The astronomer may speak to you of his understanding of space, but he cannot give you his understanding.

The musician may sing to you of the rhythm which is in all space, but he cannot give you the ear which arrests the rhythm nor the voice that echoes it.

And he who is versed in the science of numbers can tell of the regions of weight and measure, but he cannot conduct you thither.

For the vision of one man lends not its wings to another man.

And even as each one of you stands alone in God's knowledge, so must each one of you be alone in his knowledge of God and in his understanding of the earth.

 

-- Kahlil Gibran

 

Thanks for your contribution 松永道. (no I don't mean that sarcastically)

[Epicurious]

Erdweir,

 

It's all good. Sometimes in life, not everyone is what you think.

 

To be clear I didn't mean that everyone's thoughts are useless. I meant everyone's opinions ABOUT ME are, unless they take the time to really understand where I'm coming from. That's all. Nothing more nothing less.

 

In the future if I suspect someone is saying something to me that is based in not even knowing anything about me I will respond with this:

 

<Fart Sound>

 

Simple as that.

 

ha...bullshit son...dont you be worrin...noone gives a toot about your bitchin...all sounds like its comin out ya ass anyhow...try gettin it into your THICK teenage skull that this here little world aint revolvin around your good self...shit...your an open book an you dont even have pretty pictures to look at...if ya cant play with the big boys git back to yer porn an take out yer frustration that none a the gals like ya there...damn..what your mama do to you ta get ya this pissy...

[11:33]

Better yet. I'd like to thank everyone for putting some real nice posts about what energetic practices have to do with enlightenment. They really broadened my understanding of things.

Edited May 27, 2009 by 11:33

[erdweir]

Better yet. I'd like to thank everyone for putting some real nice posts about what energetic practices have to do with enlightenment. They really broadened my understanding of things.

 

 

That's more like it.

 

So energetic practices and enlightenment dont have to go together, but in Taoism and Tantra/Tibetan Buddhism/Bonpo they mostly do. In Taoism, the usual thing is to turn jing to chi, chi to shen, etc. In each step you gain more awareness and use the energy to create a soul or spirit body/rainbow body/immortal fetus, etc. You join together the various pieces of your soul, the five elements, Yin and Yang, etc. in order to recreate yourself as a more unified being. You work with the energies of you body to turn them into higher forms of energy and awareness increases along with it.

 

My experience with this is limited, but I have had some crazy increases of awareness from doing this. they were more powerful than i was ready for. I am trying to get myself a better foundation for this work now, and am looking for a better method/teacher. It's hard work. Good luck.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

11:33, You said earlier that you often see enlightened masters who do not do qigong, but Taoists do lot of qigong.

 

In response to that, I think that you should consider Zen Master Hakuin (one of Japan's most famous Buddhist monks), and other Buddhists (particularly of the zen/chan sect) that suffer from zen sicknesses. Hakuin pushed his mind so hard for so long that he became greatly unbalanced, which lead to significant mental illness. Hakuin was only cured after her went into the mountains and sought help from a Taoist hermit (sennin) who taught him a series of simple energy practices after balancing and unblocking his energy. When Hakuin returned home he was able to finally go from scattered glimpses of satori to full blown enlightenment.

 

Even today Zen sickness is fairly common, especially when the disciple does not use the hara as one of his primary points of focus.

 

Examples such as these show that while energy practices are not necessary for enlightenment to occur, they are very useful for maintaining the inner balance that IS necessary, least you lose your sanity in the process.

 

 

 

On another point: You continually say that you want to escape the cycle of death and rebirth. Be careful what you wish and strive for, because this is setting up a dangerously dualistic worldview that will ultimately prevent you from achieving enlightenment.

 

Enlightenment is more than Nirvana, it is more than just escape from rebirth.

 

Nirvana is Samsara! Nirvana and the cycle of rebirth are not in fact separate. This is one of the most difficult but important truths of Buddhism, because it is this truth that transforms the doctrine of shunyata (emptiness) from nihilism to a wonderful, compassionate affirmation of all existence.

 

Just Nirvana + sunyata = nihilism = suffering and despair

 

But, when you can straddle both Nirvana and Samsara, when you can hold to and become the Middle Way, then you can become truly enlightened and truly free.

 

For more on this, I recommend reading some madyhamaka (middle way) texts. While anything by Nagarjuna is great, he takes a lot of devotion to deeply penetrate. Personally, my favorite book in this vain is the Vimalakirti Sutra. Robert Thurman has an excellent translation that is well worth your time. The allegories and metaphors in this text helped me immensely to grasp this difficult concept. Also, for a more modern teacher, Thich Nhat Han has some great things to say about Sunyata and the middle way.

Edited May 28, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[Birch]

Even today Zen sickness is fairly common, especially when the disciple does not use the hara as one of his primary points of focus.

 

Examples such as these show that while energy practices are not necessary for enlightenment to occur, they are very useful for maintaining the inner balance that IS necessary, least you lose your sanity in the process.

 

 

Absolutely. This is VERY important. From experience.

 

Not negligible. This is where lots of people lose it. I don't think this is necessary, nor required. Although I'm sure I'll get some Kamikaze answers as to why it is. Those would be good to discuss.

[WhiteTiger]

Enlightenment is more than Nirvana, it is more than just escape from rebirth.

 

Nirvana is Samsara! Nirvana and the cycle of rebirth are not in fact separate. This is one of the most difficult but important truths of Buddhism, because it is this truth that transforms the doctrine of shunyata (emptiness) from nihilism to a wonderful, compassionate affirmation of all existence.

 

Just Nirvana + sunyata = nihilism = suffering and despair

 

But, when you can straddle both Nirvana and Samsara, when you can hold to and become the Middle Way, then you can become truly enlightened and truly free.

 

For more on this, I recommend reading some madyhamaka (middle way) texts. While anything by Nagarjuna is great, he takes a lot of devotion to deeply penetrate. Personally, my favorite book in this vain is the Vimalakirti Sutra. Robert Thurman has an excellent translation that is well worth your time. The allegories and metaphors in this text helped me immensely to grasp this difficult concept. Also, for a more modern teacher, Thich Nhat Han has some great things to say about Sunyata and the middle way.

 

Where does Immortality lie into all of this?

 

To me it seems as if Immortality is just something further out of reach then Enlightenment and Nirvana.

But in no way am i claiming to know much of these things.