What's the point of Union with Tao? Enlightenment? Satori?

[DaoChild]

It sounds like a childish question, but if weren't childish I guess it wouldn't be like the Tao

 

Anyway, unfortunately I have to give a little bit of background information here. When I was a young boy ( guess I still am..), around the age of 12 I would pray every single morning and night to find union with God; this went on for about 5 years. What child on earth strives for that at such a young age? My life was perfect -- I was born into a very materially wealthy family, with an ideal life, and several siblings. I was born a spiritual child and never knew why.

 

After some time, about 10 years later (which was this past January), I did something I wanted to for a long time: I went on a retreat for myself to meditate to find myself closer to Tao. I went to the sahara desert with a band of nomads for 3 weeks, and they dropped me off on a sandy plateau for 4 days with some water.

 

What scared me was how simple the answer was.. As a kid I always wanted to be a hermit, or a monk. I never knew why, but I was born a spiritual seeker. My answer was rather simple: that after all of my cultivation, my future experiences, retreats, travels -- that I was supposed to return to humanity. I was to share what I learned, and the solitary ascetic path was not for me.

 

And now I'm stuck in a bind. I no longer want enlightenment; it doesn't attract me at all. All those pieces seem to have fallen away, and I've been given a new puzzle. It seems like all I want from my cultivation is a deep energetic ability that I can use to heal myself and others.

 

So what now?

 

I feel a bit stunted

 

What are your reasons for striving for enlightenment? What are your reasons for not striving for it? What are you striving for? Do you just want enhanced health and recovery, peace of mind, objectivity?

 

 

 

Maybe it's just one of those mini Dark Nights of the Soul..

 

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your responses,

 

DaoChild

[WhiteTiger]

Stale water signifies degeneration.

[Iskote]

...

Edited June 7, 2009 by Iskote

[bailey]

What scared me was how simple the answer was..

 

DaoChild

 

It is simple, yes. As simple and natural as tao.

 

"Enlightenment" may no longer interest you because you came to understand what it is. To seek having an exclusively non-dual nature is no more balanced than having an exclusively dual nature. Chasing one, at the expense of the other, is only embracing half of the Whole - no matter which half is chased. Understanding the necessity, and joy, found in the blended perspective brings clarity to the Union that you've always perceived.

 

Doesn't sound stunted to me. Sounds more like you're clearly seeing the path that's always been under your feet. Well met and best wishes to you.

[WhiteTiger]

It is also true that we will not seek that which

we do not know.

 

All you mentioned was completely and utterly understandable ALTHOUGH, the last part is the extremely seems to hold lots of value in the advice department.

[林愛偉]

It sounds like a childish question, but if weren't childish I guess it wouldn't be like the Tao

 

Anyway, unfortunately I have to give a little bit of background information here. When I was a young boy ( guess I still am..), around the age of 12 I would pray every single morning and night to find union with God; this went on for about 5 years. What child on earth strives for that at such a young age? My life was perfect -- I was born into a very materially wealthy family, with an ideal life, and several siblings. I was born a spiritual child and never knew why.

 

After some time, about 10 years later (which was this past January), I did something I wanted to for a long time: I went on a retreat for myself to meditate to find myself closer to Tao. I went to the sahara desert with a band of nomads for 3 weeks, and they dropped me off on a sandy plateau for 4 days with some water.

 

What scared me was how simple the answer was.. As a kid I always wanted to be a hermit, or a monk. I never knew why, but I was born a spiritual seeker. My answer was rather simple: that after all of my cultivation, my future experiences, retreats, travels -- that I was supposed to return to humanity. I was to share what I learned, and the solitary ascetic path was not for me.

 

And now I'm stuck in a bind. I no longer want enlightenment; it doesn't attract me at all. All those pieces seem to have fallen away, and I've been given a new puzzle. It seems like all I want from my cultivation is a deep energetic ability that I can use to heal myself and others.

 

So what now?

 

I feel a bit stunted

 

What are your reasons for striving for enlightenment? What are your reasons for not striving for it? What are you striving for? Do you just want enhanced health and recovery, peace of mind, objectivity?

Maybe it's just one of those mini Dark Nights of the Soul..

 

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your responses,

 

DaoChild

 

 

THe point is to not be taken by anger, ignorance and greed when having to pay your bills, and find a job, and feed a family...

 

[WhiteTiger]

Lin, I couldn't agree with you anymore.

 

within the last two years (Basically, me being apart of this board)

 

I've gone to my parents, family, in search to help myself out. I've gone from Kung Fu school to Kung Fu school in search to help myself out. I've failed and retired once, twice even a few times in many situations. I've even gone to a monk which I hold a great affinity with... all unwilling to help me out, but surely presented himself as if he was willing to help me out. Although most of them in the end really didn't find or make time to really attempt to help me out OR figure out and understand the whole situation.

 

In the end it seemed as if they were all they were interested in helping themselves out greatly with using me in the mean time. There interest wasn't at all in helping me out.

Edited May 23, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[Mokona]

Hi Dao,

 

I feel that situations circulate, you don't learn everything about yourself at once and situations change. Perhpas you've reached one stage of enlightenmnet, not longer feeling a need for it (Which may change into enlightenment) Anyway nothing is wrong with developing strong compassion. Its a step many overlook.

My favorite healing practice is Reiki, perhaps look into that... If you like it I'll point you to someone who will teach for free and is very good.

 

Hope you find your answer, its not easy. Good luck.

[trailmaker]

It sounds like a childish question, but if weren't childish I guess it wouldn't be like the Tao

 

Anyway, unfortunately I have to give a little bit of background information here. When I was a young boy ( guess I still am..), around the age of 12 I would pray every single morning and night to find union with God; this went on for about 5 years. What child on earth strives for that at such a young age? My life was perfect -- I was born into a very materially wealthy family, with an ideal life, and several siblings. I was born a spiritual child and never knew why.

 

After some time, about 10 years later (which was this past January), I did something I wanted to for a long time: I went on a retreat for myself to meditate to find myself closer to Tao. I went to the sahara desert with a band of nomads for 3 weeks, and they dropped me off on a sandy plateau for 4 days with some water.

 

What scared me was how simple the answer was.. As a kid I always wanted to be a hermit, or a monk. I never knew why, but I was born a spiritual seeker. My answer was rather simple: that after all of my cultivation, my future experiences, retreats, travels -- that I was supposed to return to humanity. I was to share what I learned, and the solitary ascetic path was not for me.

 

And now I'm stuck in a bind. I no longer want enlightenment; it doesn't attract me at all. All those pieces seem to have fallen away, and I've been given a new puzzle. It seems like all I want from my cultivation is a deep energetic ability that I can use to heal myself and others.

 

So what now?

 

I feel a bit stunted

 

What are your reasons for striving for enlightenment? What are your reasons for not striving for it? What are you striving for? Do you just want enhanced health and recovery, peace of mind, objectivity?

Maybe it's just one of those mini Dark Nights of the Soul..

 

Anyway, I'd be interested to hear your responses,

 

DaoChild

 

 

my experience has fortunately been several satoris sitting zazen.

 

tao (consciousness) in daily living, way to do.

[Ken]

THe point is to not be taken by anger, ignorance and greed when having to pay your bills, and find a job, and feed a family...

 

 

Well said... It seems everyone is babbling about "enlightenment" or whatever without themselves knowing what it is or what it really means.

 

Lin, I couldn't agree with you anymore.

 

within the last two years (Basically, me being apart of this board)

 

I've gone to my parents, family, in search to help myself out. I've gone from Kung Fu school to Kung Fu school in search to help myself out. I've failed and retired once, twice even a few times in many situations. I've even gone to a monk which I hold a great affinity with... all unwilling to help me out, but surely presented himself as if he was willing to help me out. Although most of them in the end really didn't find or make time to really attempt to help me out OR figure out and understand the whole situation.

 

In the end it seemed as if they were all they were interested in helping themselves out greatly with using me in the mean time. There interest wasn't at all in helping me out.

 

What do youn need help for? I don't think anyone can help you if you go to them ask for way to be "enlightened", they will think you are crazy.

[mat black]

I like what Mokona and Bailey said.

Amazing way to share Daochild, thanks. I feel empathy to much of what you said. At times there's a wish, desire etc, for something, call it enlightenment or whatever, other times it's not there as a desire. Yet, underneath, there is still a subtle drive, a quiet motivation. Though it's there, we can't necessarily say why or what it is.

But it motivates us to cultivate. Yes.

Maybe that's enough?

 

I've put similar questions as yours to a teacher before and his basic response was along the lines of......just keep going, if you can't define the reason in terms of goals etc, that's OK. Just keep going.

 

I ask myself similar questions to yours eg, 'what is the 'way', & sometimes I kinda feel it's like..........

Cultivating to become completely ordinary.

Being ordinary we can relate to all.

Looking within what can we find?

The innate knowing is before words.

Is there anyone without it?

............or something to that effect poetry I can't do haha

 

And now I'm stuck in a bind. I no longer want enlightenment; it doesn't attract me at all. All those pieces seem to have fallen away, and I've been given a new puzzle. It seems like all I want from my cultivation is a deep energetic ability that I can use to heal myself and others.

DaoChild

Compassion is a great 'reason' if ever there was one I think.

Edited May 24, 2009 by mat black

[Tokoyo Tama]

Although most of them in the end really didn't find or make time to really attempt to help me out OR figure out and understand the whole situation.

 

In the end it seemed as if they were all they were interested in helping themselves out greatly with using me in the mean time. There interest wasn't at all in helping me out.

 

The false or otherwise insufficient guru is certainly a classic occurrence. However, how often have we tried to help others and have proved to be essentially unable to? The saying 'you can bring a horse to water, but you can't make him drink' has recently come up some in this life. In your case your very will to drink (and I'm out on a huge limb, simply using this general situation as an example) may have gotten in the way of actually getting much water. I suspect everyone has been on both sides of this situation, with looking for help and looking to help. Life also has a way of giving us the lessons we don't expect. Some forms of energy work may have relatively clear benchmarks, but life lessons tend to find the askew answer to be most efficient.

 

In more specific regards to the original post: lead by example. If you consider your path to have brought you benefit that others could also achieve, the core way to share that with the world is simply to live naturally amongst others. People respond in ways even they do not understand when they observe someone who is on a virtuous path (I do not mean to imply that a 'spiritual' path is the only virtuous one) or just existing in a harmonious place, even if just for a moment. If everyone were to allow themselves to smile in public more, imagine how the world would be

 

When you say you wish to 'heal others' it begs the question of what are some of the most efficacious ways of healing others? Teaching them and showing them how to heal themselves is surely of some value. If someone inspires others to heal themselves, and possibly gives them a boost to get them going, it goes without saying this is a good thing. It does confuse me, however, when you speak of 'heal[ing yourself]", but being disinterested in 'enlightenment'. My conception of enlightenment, shaky though it surely is, would hold that as one approaches enlightenment, one needs less healing or one is healed (wording is questionable). I guess I imagine enlightenment as being, amongst other things an ultimate 'healing' (even if not physically speaking).

 

Personally I am striving to make the world into a place that is better for future generations, or the children of today. Better, at least in some ways, than were I to not exist. Hopefully I am able to walk a path that allows me to let go of obstacles, and in doing so can show the future generations a model of a relatively virtuous life, inspiring some to live a 'better' life. In reality I suspect my main effect will be to slightly normalize a spiritual lifestyle and by doing so encourage or facilitate others to feel secure in their own spirituality, whatever form that may take.

 

Hope this was helpful in some way, I get the feeling it's overly thought out common sense, but maybe it helped me a bit!

[WhiteTiger]

What do youn need help for? I don't think anyone can help you if you go to them ask for way to be "enlightened", they will think you are crazy.

I have a few issues that which I would be willing to name in a private domain...

Which are not asking to be enlightened... nor even asking for the road to enlightenment... much smaller issues, that prevent me from persevering through practices I happen to, excel at, and/or persevere at until I get it or progress at it.

 

Anyway... most of it I'm sure is only based on my ignorance.

Edited May 24, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[Ken]

I have a few issues that which I would be willing to name in a private domain...

Which are not asking to be enlightened... nor even asking for the road to enlightenment... much smaller issues, that prevent me from persevering through practices I happen to, excel at, and/or persevere at until I get it or progress at it.

 

Anyway... most of it I'm sure is only based on my ignorance.

 

huh? You can PM me if you want. Not promising any help though.

[DaoChild]

Actually, what you guys have said makes a lot of sense. I think this feeling arises from the fact that I'm more than content with my current life. I'm going to be taking a big step next year, and like every big step, will be confronted by many more problems.

 

It's easy to feel secure in my own little bubble, without having entered the 9-5 life quite yet. Perhaps I'm just content where I am, relative to my life. Once I start getting into the hectic flow of the "real" world, I'm inclined to believe that things will change and I will have to seriously improve my ability to remain tranquil.

[林愛偉]

Actually, what you guys have said makes a lot of sense. I think this feeling arises from the fact that I'm more than content with my current life. I'm going to be taking a big step next year, and like every big step, will be confronted by many more problems.

 

It's easy to feel secure in my own little bubble, without having entered the 9-5 life quite yet. Perhaps I'm just content where I am, relative to my life. Once I start getting into the hectic flow of the "real" world, I'm inclined to believe that things will change and I will have to seriously improve my ability to remain tranquil.

 

 

Whether in the worldly affairs or not, watching one's own response to conditions is

a straight path towards tranquility and wisdom.

 

Peace,

Lin

[bailey]

It's easy to feel secure in my own little bubble...

 

Even little bubbles present little bumps. How you deal now can be how you deal later; Lin's suggestion is a good one. Keep true to yourself and the only difference between bubble and real world is the scenery.

[11:33]

Hi DaoChild,

 

Just some of my musings to follow:

 

To me, the pursuit of enlightenment is a natural outgrowth of my natural propensity to understand (life). I find it a natural thing. To me enlightenment is as much something that finds you, as it is something that you find, much like puberty or old age. It's natural, so like someone said above, like all things in nature there is a cycle.

 

Just like we have cravings for food, to keep our bodies healthy, we get soul "cravings" for enlightenment.

 

Like you said, you are feeling very content with your life now. That's a wonderful thing. Just be prepared for the next stage. Because there is always a next stage, right?

 

All the Best

Edited May 24, 2009 by 11:33

[Birch]

Why bother going after enlightenment?

 

Because of the things (we) do to get there.

 

If the sole idea of that goal makes a whole bunch of people practice to be more compassionate and aware of themselves (and less dependent on received or borrowed ideas, dogmas and conditions) then that's a pretty good reason enough I would say. That has pretty big implications for lots of things. Non of them negligible.

 

Scott, did you have anything to do with this enlightenment thread?

 

;-)

[Lucky7Strikes]

Hi DaoChild,

 

To me, the pursuit of enlightenment is a natural outgrowth of my natural propensity to understand (life). I find it a natural thing. To me enlightenment is as much something that finds you, as it is something that you find, much like puberty or old age. It's natural, so like someone said above, like all things in nature there is a cycle.

 

Just like we have cravings for food, to keep our bodies healthy, we get soul "cravings" for enlightenment.

 

All the Best

 

I agree with 11:33 that the pursuit of something called enlightenment is totally natural. I'd just add that it isn't exactly that there is a destination called "enlightenment" but simply the Path in that direction. So the natural tendency of the Path would be towards a more stable, peaceful, and joyful life.

 

I see it as a continual growth and expansion of consciousness (and/or energy? perhaps). But many people deviate from the Path under the belief that this natural inclination towards happiness can be somehow satisfied by material conditions. Which is fine as long as they learn the futility of it (as I did).

 

The traditional Zen saying that cultivation is enlightenment and enlightenment is cultivation sums it up nicely.

Edited May 25, 2009 by Lucky7Strikes

[xenolith]

spirit...evolve...

 

...

[Tokoyo Tama]

It's easy to feel secure in my own little bubble, without having entered the 9-5 life quite yet. Perhaps I'm just content where I am, relative to my life. Once I start getting into the hectic flow of the "real" world, I'm inclined to believe that things will change and I will have to seriously improve my ability to remain tranquil.

 

I'm reading "Hidden Connections" right now by Fritjof Capra and this statement sounds a great deal like a theory for the 'prebiotic' evolution of life. Before life proper with cells and all that, the first big step towards life was the formation of little bubbles. Within these bubbles molecules that were rare could be accumulated, reassembled, and organized, all based on chemistry etc. This allowed larger, more complicated molecules to come into existence in large quantities, and from the large molecules life would eventually be sustained. Obviously a hugely brief summary on my part, and not an entirely accepted theory, but I find it fascinating as a model. As an aside, I've also had a great deal of insight the nature of taking in, taking on, and sharing energy (or anything really) from a cell membrane:neither open nor closed, constantly self-sustaining and invigorating the system as a whole.

 

In short, if you're in a bubble you can create a whole bunch of whatever it is that you're creating in life (bliss, eg ) and when you get to the 'real world' or whatever new non-bubble world you encounter, you'll have a whole new set of energies to learn how to reassemble and refine into something useful and constructive. This surely will be a great challenge, and there may be a great deal more energy that you need to expel, breakdown and process, but if it is a healthy situation, with these new inputs you will learn new ways to construct _______ , even if that just means re-learning how to sustain your present balance in more trying situations.

 

Be well

[forestofclarity]

You don't meditate to become one with the Tao. You meditate to realize the Tao is always here.

 

If you feel you should return to humanity to help others, why not do that? Other people have their own knots that they are untying. Your know may be completely different.

It sounds like a childish question, but if weren't childish I guess it wouldn't be like the Tao

Edited May 26, 2009 by forestofemptiness

[gendao]

Actually, what you guys have said makes a lot of sense. I think this feeling arises from the fact that I'm more than content with my current life. I'm going to be taking a big step next year, and like every big step, will be confronted by many more problems.

I had a clear turning point in my life when I was walking home from school at the age of 9. I had it pretty good by that point - always had perfect grades without much effort, was popular, attractive and athletic. Yadda, yadda. That's about as good as it gets in worldy terms. So, I philosophically asked myself, "Is this all happiness is?" It was surely nice...but was that really as good as it got?

 

VERY shortly thereafter, my life started going dowwnhiiillll...lol.