Buddhism transcends the Tao

[Unconditioned]

Is this from personal experience? Or are you passing on what you have read and heard? I think the idea of no self is just another dogma. Sounds like more fundamentalist non dualism.

Bill

 

Words are so tricky.

 

You're right, the IDEA of no-self is another dogma as are all ideas if you want to take it to that extreme. I've thought about this one quite a bit, True Self vs. self or real "I" and illusory "I".

 

When there is the first glimpse of formless awareness it is easy to say "Ah hah! This is my TRUE self!" and label the awareness as True Self. But if we look at that a bit closer it's just another form of division - Awareness-self vs. Egoic-self. If we look at both of these we have to ask: can these be separate? Can there be two selves?

 

Awareness enables thoughts - even thoughts about awareness. The two cannot be separate. We divide up this and that to make sense of the perceptions we experience, that's what the function of thought is, to divide, to break things into smaller pieces so we can make sense of them and communicate using language.

 

Now there comes a different perspective of who you once you become aware of all this. A realization that "maybe all these conditioned thoughts are no longer what 'I' identify with". And so begins disassociation with the ego. This is different than saying "there is no self". You are here, you are reading this right now, you are aware of the words and their meanings.

 

All of that is really happening but for most of us it's simply a case of misidentification. Thinking we are our thoughts, memories, and experiences. We put our awareness there mostly unconsciously. But we can look deeper, 'underneath', into the nature of thought, awareness, and their association. Then we may realize that there is no separation, that duality is a mind-made trick.

 

Just my 2c based on my limited experiences.

[Josh Young]

Yes people attain enlightenment. This "no one attains enlightenment" is only from the perspective of seeing that there is no longer a sense of individual within that person. So to take this statement and say "oh there is no way for a person to become enlightened" is to be misinterpreting the notion of anatta.

 

Do you still have this cake that you are eating?

 

What I mean is understanding the explanation is not the same as the experience.

 

I apologize for the result this topic has because of this.

Sorry.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Do you still have this cake that you are eating?

 

What I mean is understanding the explanation is not the same as the experience.

 

I apologize for the result this topic has because of this.

Sorry.

 

Why shouldn't I have cake and eat it too? 'Tis only natural...

 

Hmm, then I must've misunderstood you. But I agree, technique and practice should go hand in hand.

 

BTW,

 

Why do you keep apologizing in your posts? Lighten up guy. .

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Why do you keep apologizing in your posts? Lighten up guy. .

 

He must have been a Tibetan Monk in his past life.

 

They have a tradition of bowing really low, calling themself merely a bug after an incredibly enlightening talk on the nature of mind. They say how feeble and weak their bodies are, even after putting their hand through solid rock to reveal a hidden "Terma" (treasure text hidden by Padmasambhava over a thousand years ago). They say how foolish their pride is after making it rain to help a crop grower meet his annual need. They like to praise highly their teacher and call themselves low, knowing nothing, did nothing, failure of a yogi... meanwhile, they live their lives in incredible bliss without any petty desire, create many charities, facilitate many, many transmissions and head an entire lineage of thousands of living monks in monasteries.

 

There is always more to do in the relative, one's job is never done, even if one can move a mountain, there are endless mountains to move. No matter how vast one's knowledge is, it is merely a speck in the infinite cosmos. No matter how complete one's knowledge is of how the cosmos works, relatively, one's glass is always empty.

[Josh Young]

I am merely sorry that words cannot share these types of understandings.

 

Even if we formulate the words as correct symbols, they cannot replace what they symbolize.

 

My sorrow is not abiding though, merely an afterthought in relation to this topic.

 

I have often thought that if I was anything in a previous life it must have been a tree, and indeed if I have another incarnation after death then I would prefer to be a tree. However to be anything, even to be here, now, is indeed blissful. I was connecting to that feeling as I went for a walk today, I'll admit that I am not able to dwell in it 24/7, but I remember each time it came to me, as well as the first time.

 

I was on the bus writing about what I am.

I realized I am not my thoughts, my possessions, my body, my actions, my desires or any term. Before I knew what was happening I had tears of joy! it was like I was floating in space and waves of euphoria from within bathed me in the feeling, but I was still on the bus and when I came to my stop I still had to get off the bus and walk home. Nothing was lost and nothing was gained, but I found "myself" hiding beneath my preconceptions.

 

I can feel it now as I type, and I am indeed sorry I cannot give this feeling to anyone like a glass of water.

[tumoessence]

Words are so tricky.

 

You're right, the IDEA of no-self is another dogma as are all ideas if you want to take it to that extreme. I've thought about this one quite a bit, True Self vs. self or real "I" and illusory "I".

 

When there is the first glimpse of formless awareness it is easy to say "Ah hah! This is my TRUE self!" and label the awareness as True Self. But if we look at that a bit closer it's just another form of division - Awareness-self vs. Egoic-self. If we look at both of these we have to ask: can these be separate? Can there be two selves?

 

Awareness enables thoughts - even thoughts about awareness. The two cannot be separate. We divide up this and that to make sense of the perceptions we experience, that's what the function of thought is, to divide, to break things into smaller pieces so we can make sense of them and communicate using language.

 

Now there comes a different perspective of who you once you become aware of all this. A realization that "maybe all these conditioned thoughts are no longer what 'I' identify with". And so begins disassociation with the ego. This is different than saying "there is no self". You are here, you are reading this right now, you are aware of the words and their meanings.

 

 

 

All of that is really happening but for most of us it's simply a case of misidentification. Thinking we are our thoughts, memories, and experiences. We put our awareness there mostly unconsciously. But we can look deeper, 'underneath', into the nature of thought, awareness, and their association. Then we may realize that there is no separation, that duality is a mind-made trick.

 

Just my 2c based on my limited experiences.

 

Yes! and because we can't find a self as an object or a subject forgetting that we are what is looking,we say it doesn't exist. Its like a dog chasing its tail. But if I read Nargajuna correctly and that could be "a big if," all statements about extremes are to be avoided. Existence and non existence, self and no self. I think the point is make no judgements, ie philosophical absolutes from the level of normal cognition. Whatever the case may be at this point, my true being's essence is awareness. "I" can to choose to be mindful, or I can be in the habit of being more asleep.

Bill

[Josh Young]

Its like a dog chasing its tail

One of my favorite sights!

[Butcho]

I see the greatest difference between Taoist ideas & Buddhist ideas is that Taoists do not insist on a good/bad ruling on everything under the sun... everything under the sun is warmed by the sun and takes its nurishment from the earth...As well as the sun

 

Our idea of oneness is quite different from Buddhists... whose Nervanic oneness is without being. Being is to be discarded by Buddhists as a horror...

 

Taoists realize it is the greatest gift ever besowed on spiritual beings of light... (which we all are in fact-I promise!!!)

 

Life scares Buddhists and repels them - for Taoists it is just the stuff of life that drives us to explore the realms of being we may encounter on these levels... To transcend them yes- but not to disparage!

 

Buddhism was founded by a spoiled rich kid who was shocked and terrified by the ills of the world which he had been previously kept ignorant of...

 

It is no surprise that he was all about catagorizing experience and levels of being as good & bad because of some esoteric value system...

 

Karma Artha Dharma - we Taoists see these differentiations and say they are still all one and the same in fact, and not to be valued as less or more because of there inherent place in the universe is only relative to circumstances...

 

There really is no up and down...

 

Friend,

 

There is no pure Taoism. There is no pure Buddhism. Nothing stands alone, separate.

 

The only thing that is of itself so is existence. Words, concepts, are muddied. Synthetic. A map and not the territory they depict.

 

All is not One. All is a unity. A unitive one. A quality that cannot be quantified. Think Pi.

 

"From the first not a thing is." Hui Neng. Nothing is separate from that thing which is not a thing.

 

We are each a part of that which has no parts.

 

Of course there is up and down. North and South. Mountains and Rivers.

 

There is a grain to existence.

 

Don't look to the West to see a sunrise.

 

Don't look to the East to see a sunset.

 

All is not One. A Monism. A monotheism.

 

There is no God. But, there is more than one no God.

 

Existence is not what we think it is.

 

Descartes had his carte before his horse.

 

Thoughts come and go.

 

We were never born and will never die.

 

We do not come into the world.

 

We come out of it.

 

Disregard everything I have said but this.

 

There is a New Moon tonight.

 

Look for yourself.

 

It is there. Even if you can't see it.

 

Welcome to the Dark Path.

 

Butcho

[Marblehead]

Hi Butcho,

 

I don't necessarily agree with everything you said but I have no serious disagreement. All your ducks are present but they aren't necessarily in order. (Of course, 'order' is subjective.)

 

Peace & Love!

[bamboo]

It is said that Lao Tzu was a reincarnation of Mahakashyapa, a former Brahman, a chief disciple of Shakyamuni Buddha and the first Chan (zen) Patriarch.

That would be like someone saying that i am a reincarnation of Mick Jagger

 

According to what i've heard Shakymuni Buddha gave a behest to four of his great disciples to remain in the world. All of them kept their physical form and stayed in the world to teach. They were Kundupada, the venerable Pindola, the Buddha's son Rahula, and the venerable Mahakashyapa. Now you get the Jagger joke.

Edited March 11, 2011 by bamboo

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Bumpin'

[electric gravity]

The tao is the network god uses to manifest his will.

 

The center of the tao is god.

 

There are different class of beings that goes from angel to ghost. Just like on earth there are humans all the way to insects. The human being is the highest class of being on earth in the physical plane.

 

The tao te ching is all about ascension. Staying connected o the tao in life and in death ascends you.

 

Alchemy only gets you so far.

 

A true taoist restores his connection with god and follows his virtue from hence it came to the highest realm of the tao with the purest and strongest energy.

 

On your way back to the tao you will pass gods and other deities.

 

You can get spiritual gifts have all your chakras open and so on. But that really wont put you on the path. What lao tzu did was amazing if you understand it. He left a manual that not only guided thru your alchemy but guided you back o the highest level of the tao.

 

When your meditating and you feel connected to everything following the tao te ching guides you thru all the dimensions back to the source of the tao.

 

So a taoist master is one who has mastered the path to god. One who can guide you back to the supreme ultimate the tao is just the method of doing so.

 

A real taoist master can heal karma and forgive sins and so on.

 

The taoist master's te radiates from his body- the message of his energy puts everything back to what it should be. When you meditate on your dantian this happens to you everything will start to balance in you.

 

It was for these reasons that taoism was given to man by heavenly decree.

 

Taoism is not about tricks and having internal power.

 

Taoism is about striving for heaven with the uptmost sincerity.

 

Its sincerity of the heart that blazes the path.

 

Just look at a real taichi master when he does his form he does it with the uptmost sincerity.

Edited March 15, 2011 by electric gravity

[Birch]

Do you mean that Buddha so successfully brainwashed 4 other people that they each considered themselves to be him and him them, or were they just so far down the "no self" route that they were able to act like a single consciousness?

Or were they just good enough to fool the disciples into figuring they were reincarnations - ok I give up. How did they do it?

I reckon there's some shapeshifting going on somwhere. Especially after reading that article Blasto posted.

[Nanashi]

 

Each has it's role to play in life and should be respected as equal treasures.

 

Excellent piece of wisdom... let us remember the Vinegar Tasters.

 

 

[Marblehead]

Hi Electric Gravity,

 

What a post! Almost caused me to get my boxing gloves out. Hehehe.

 

But I follow you even though my understands vary somewhat.

 

Ah!, Buddhist reincarnation! What a lovely concept.

[electric gravity]

God sends a message of peace and balance to the whole network of the tao. Just like when you focus on your dantian it also sends a message of balance to your whole nervous system. The dantian beams the original message of what your suppose to be. The dantian gets its message from the dao the dao gets is message from god. theres a lesson in alchemy and this also why alchemy only takes you so far you must continue to follow the same principles. We are just microcosmic's of the tao thus alchemy and why it starts with meditation. - understand

 

Once a taoist tunes into the message of balance from the tao he can beam the message from his dantian (which is the gateway of the tao) radiate this message into the world. As he does this his te will expand until the master becomes the message.

 

thus becoming the vessel for the supreme ultimate god's hammer on earth.

Edited March 15, 2011 by electric gravity

[Birch]

"thus becoming the vessel for the supreme ultimate god's hammer on earth."

 

 

Can I jump in and suggest "thus realizing one is the vessel for the supreme ultimate god's hammer on earth."?

 

An oak does not (as far as I can imagine so far) become such without a ittle acorn who knew it all along. IMO all this talk of "becoming" neglects the "what from" question. While I'm sure that particles can drop in and out of being (messiah) I also believe there is a path (a "dao" if you like) for each of the 10,000 things :-)

 

Of course, if you have transcended the state of being any of the 10,000 things, then your path is yours alone, so no point trying to explain it to any of the rest of the other 10,000 things. They won't get it and can't follow you, so you are alone. Not just figuratively, but ultimately.

 

Like I'm not going to explain coffee to my cat (who nevertheless understands something about mornings and wakefulness)

[effilang]

Why attempt to emptily compare methods of cultivation that all lead to the same path.

Is it not simply a matter of choosing whichever sounds better to you and then following it?

 

I mean. Lets be serious. There is nothing hidden about any of this. The instructions required to attain enlightenment are available in both Buddhism and Taoism for those who dedicate themselves to the path.

 

Is it not like being at a fork in the road and simply having to chose left from right?

You know both paths will take you to the same destination sooner or later.

 

Stopping half way down your path to competitively debate the superiority of your decisions against a fellow adventurer to your right who is on the opposite path is childish at the least and not something a dedicated disciple would even consider doing. If anything it is an exhibit of your blatant frustration in your lack of understanding or personal progression of the way and your comparisons and argumentative pronouncements are just a manifestation of your staleness.

 

Do you think that if you took an enlightened Buddhist and told him to meditate and follow Taoist methodology of spiritual cultivation he would care? - He would say sure, why not.

 

All enlightened beings have accepted the infinite nature of our existence, thus in favor of the debaters, even if we were to assume hypothetically that one discipline due to its difference in doctrine and practices gave an advantage over another, would the end result of this favor not boil down to a basic variation in the time it takes to accomplish similar tasks?

 

If the difference between 100 Buddhist books and 100 Taoist books on cultivating true nature is that Taoism might achieve it 50 days faster, assuming in such a scenario that both cultivators have equally fortunate karma, then how INSIGNIFICANT is that to an eternal being. Hell, stretch it. Make it 1000 days, make it 5000 days.

 

If you can come and sit here and genuinely within tell me that you cannot look beyond this, then you are very far from understanding the truth of ANY path out there that is available to you.

 

I mean, just from a logic point of view arguing about this should make you feel stupid and if it doesn't then you are really stupid, because the person who is stupid and knows it can be saved, but he who is stupid and thinks he is smart... well.. good luck to him.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Oh definitely.

 

My main point is that its best if you can integrate this practice into your life in a manner which is healthy both to you and those around you. At least that's the way I'm looking at it in regards to my own current situation. Even if I don't reach final enlightenment in this lifetime, every little bit counts is my philosophy.

 

How does one incorporate these teachings into ones life?