Full-lotus only hurts when I get out of the position

[nomad]

So while I sit in full-lotus meditating, the posture doesn't really hurt until I immediately get out of the position, during which it is my left foot that begins to hurt - because of the bend to get onto my thigh I presume - is this normal?

[sheng zhen]

If its not too much pain there is nothing to worry about. Most people experience some pain when doing full lotus.

 

But if your pain is so bad that you are really worried, then ease up a little on the time spent in full lotus. Spend a little more time realxing the hips in half-lotus and a little less time in full lotus.

[Ya Mu]

So while I sit in full-lotus meditating, the posture doesn't really hurt until I immediately get out of the position, ...

 

Three potential solutions come to mind:

1) Don't ever get out of the position

2) Don't get in the position

3) Hurt

 

You may actually find you don't really need to do that. Try just crossed leg if full lotus makes you hurt.

[Siliconvalley1]

Three potential solutions come to mind:

1) Don't ever get out of the position

2) Don't get in the position

3) Hurt

 

You may actually find you don't really need to do that. Try just crossed leg if full lotus makes you hurt.

 

 

Great advice! While Full lotus is beneficial, it is certainly not irreplaceable. A cross-legged form named Yonyasana or ardha yonyasana, is more comfortable and can give one the benefits of Full Lotus if the duration of sitting is doubled. A yogic text states, for example, 10 minutes of full lotus would be equivalent to 20 minutes of yonyasana. For women, many yogic traditions don't prescribe full lotus at all but only yonyasana.

Edited May 30, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[松永道]

Great advice! While Full lotus is beneficial, it is certainly not irreplaceable. A cross-legged form named Yonyasana or ardha yonyasana, is more comfortable and can give one the benefits of Full Lotus if the duration of sitting is doubled. A yogic text states, for example, 10 minutes of full lotus would be equivalent to 20 minutes of yonyasana. For women, many yogic traditions don't prescribe full lotus at all but only yonyasana.

 

Interesting about contraindicating full lotus for women. Do you know any reasons why they advise women don't full lotus?

 

nomad, can you describe the pain more clearly? Is it persistent pain for hours or days after wards? Or is it an initial soreness or numbness that fades after you get up and get mobile?

 

One of the reasons for sitting in full lotus is to impair circulation to the legs. Pinching the femoral arteries causes more blood to circulate in the trunk and also forces smaller arteries in the leg to develop. Consequently, numbness is a common sign and some masters say you don't even begin developing full-lotus gongfu until the legs are numb and in pain. The ability to sit longer periods without numbness and pain is a sign of development, but also a sign to push your practice further. My teacher suggests sitting for an hour after the numbness kicks in.

 

On proper position, the ankles shouldn't be bent (a little is ok at the start), and the ankle should be up on top of the femoral artery. If you can't accomplish this with at least the bottom leg, you should spend more time in half lotus getting there. If your ankle is wrenched into a weird position that can damage the tendons and ligaments. Same goes for the knees. However, knee pain is common in the beginning stages of full lotus and should suffered through until it dissolves. Knee pain is generally due to tight hips, suffering through it allows the pain/heat to open up the hips - don't bail out early. Always quitting when the pain gets to a certain area will damage that area. Be brave, be equanimous, suffer through.

 

It's strange that the ankle pain doesn't kick in during full-lotus though. How long do you sit?

[Aetherous]

Awesome stuff guys.

 

Silicon, can you share instructions for yonyasana please? I am interested!

 

Nomad, check out yogajournal.com ...look up hip openers, and articles about padmasana/lotus. There's a lot of great tips there. Hip opening is the key to your success with this.

[FAT]

Interesting about contraindicating full lotus for women. Do you know any reasons why they advise women don't full lotus?

 

nomad, can you describe the pain more clearly? Is it persistent pain for hours or days after wards? Or is it an initial soreness or numbness that fades after you get up and get mobile?

 

One of the reasons for sitting in full lotus is to impair circulation to the legs. Pinching the femoral arteries causes more blood to circulate in the trunk and also forces smaller arteries in the leg to develop. Consequently, numbness is a common sign and some masters say you don't even begin developing full-lotus gongfu until the legs are numb and in pain. The ability to sit longer periods without numbness and pain is a sign of development, but also a sign to push your practice further. My teacher suggests sitting for an hour after the numbness kicks in.

 

On proper position, the ankles shouldn't be bent (a little is ok at the start), and the ankle should be up on top of the femoral artery. If you can't accomplish this with at least the bottom leg, you should spend more time in half lotus getting there. If your ankle is wrenched into a weird position that can damage the tendons and ligaments. Same goes for the knees. However, knee pain is common in the beginning stages of full lotus and should suffered through until it dissolves. Knee pain is generally due to tight hips, suffering through it allows the pain/heat to open up the hips - don't bail out early. Always quitting when the pain gets to a certain area will damage that area. Be brave, be equanimous, suffer through.

 

It's strange that the ankle pain doesn't kick in during full-lotus though. How long do you sit?

 

Fantastic information, friend. Just to gain a degree of clarity on this subject -- is it OK to suffer through to the point where ones legs are completely dead after coming out of lotus? That is... not feeling anything in the legs and not being able to move them? Is this desirable? Functionality and feeling return after a few minutes of course.

[松永道]

Fantastic information, friend. Just to gain a degree of clarity on this subject -- is it OK to suffer through to the point where ones legs are completely dead after coming out of lotus? That is... not feeling anything in the legs and not being able to move them? Is this desirable? Functionality and feeling return after a few minutes of course.

 

It's ok. My teacher's master in his 80s sat at least 4 hours in lotus every day. His legs were purple by the end. However, he could also jump, literally, out of the position. Who needs feeling if you have Qi?

 

If you practice a moving qigong, taiji or the like, you may even find you can walk while your legs are still 'dead'. I won't give away the experience, but it gave me a new understanding of mind moving the Qi.

 

To wake your legs up quickly, run your hands down the Yang meridians on the outside of the leg while breathing out, and up the Yin meridians on the inside of the leg breathing in. With practice, it will only require a few cycles of the breath.

[WhiteTiger]

It's ok. My teacher's master in his 80s sat at least 4 hours in lotus every day. His legs were purple by the end. However, he could also jump, literally, out of the position. Who needs feeling if you have Qi?

 

If you practice a moving qigong, taiji or the like, you may even find you can walk while your legs are still 'dead'. I won't give away the experience, but it gave me a new understanding of mind moving the Qi.

 

To wake your legs up quickly, run your hands down the Yang meridians on the outside of the leg while breathing out, and up the Yin meridians on the inside of the leg breathing in. With practice, it will only require a few cycles of the breath.

 

I wouldn't know... But it sounds like a neglection of the physical body while at the same time you don't neglect qigong and/or neigong... Supposedly if you do this right over time your supposed get less bad side effects I.E. no more purple legs...

 

The issue is when your physical body doesn't have any time to adjust.

 

I think this is a prime example of Zen sickness... I mean in the similarity that your neglecting the physical body in an energetic form.

[宁]

It's ok. My teacher's master in his 80s sat at least 4 hours in lotus every day. His legs were purple by the end. However, he could also jump, literally, out of the position. Who needs feeling if you have Qi?

 

If you practice a moving qigong, taiji or the like, you may even find you can walk while your legs are still 'dead'. I won't give away the experience, but it gave me a new understanding of mind moving the Qi.

 

To wake your legs up quickly, run your hands down the Yang meridians on the outside of the leg while breathing out, and up the Yin meridians on the inside of the leg breathing in. With practice, it will only require a few cycles of the breath.

 

Yes, I agree great information Song Yongdao! I can do the full-lotus for 1hour and a half. Please tell me,

 

1. does it matter which leg is above and which leg is below?

 

2. What about the monks that do it too much and their legs are damaged? How can one find a balance between too much or too little?

 

3. Regarding the posture, can you tell us more about the hand position?

 

4. Why do meditators need to lower the blood supply to the legs and direct it to the rest of the body?

 

About mudras... I've seen different hand positions and i don't know their purpose... hands together, knuckles and thumb touching, and then hands on knees, facing upward, facing downward.

I use the lotus meditation only to calm the mind, yet, if the position of the hand is different, it seems the meditation is somewhat different. So there, I'm a bit curious about the position of the hand...

 

Thanks so much

 

L1

 

there is also a posture of the hand over the knee, and the fingers of the hand touch the ground... and the other resting in the navel area. it also gives a different effect to the meditation

Edited June 1, 2009 by Little1

[Aetherous]

Another exercise to help with numb legs is a type of kidney-1 breathing...

 

Breathe in through the bubbling wells, up the inner thigh into the perineum then to the lower dan tien, then breathe out along the outer thighs to the bubbling wells.

 

By the way, another request for Silicon to share more info about yonyasana? Thanks.

[Guest winpro07]

standing postures help recover from and prepare for full lotus

[Siliconvalley1]

By the way, another request for Silicon to share more info about yonyasana? Thanks.

 

I sent you a pm now ...

Edited June 1, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[松永道]

I wouldn't know... But it sounds like a neglection of the physical body while at the same time you don't neglect qigong and/or neigong... Supposedly if you do this right over time your supposed get less bad side effects I.E. no more purple legs...

 

I guess I don't see it as a bad side effect or neglect of the physical body. The same man needed an operation (I don't know for what) and apparently the doctors remarked about the amazing shape his internal organs were in. An 80 year old with the guts of a 30 year old liver.

 

In any case, he practiced his Taiji every day and never suffered any leg problems.

 

Little1,

Good work on sitting in full lotus for an hour and a half. Two hours (one traditional Chinese hour) is considered a complete cycle of yin and yang - you're almost there.

 

1. I think you should be able to do it with either leg, but I don't know the energetic differences associated with one leg on top or the other.

 

2. If you have a full body Qigong practice, legs shouldn't be a problem. It's definitely good to cross-train waigong and neigong, they support each other in more ways than one.

 

3. There are thousands of mudras. Hand positions differ according to what you want to accomplish. Generally, hands palm down on each knee is the foundation posture.

 

4. Reducing blood supply to the legs via lotus position and to the head via proper neck posture, causes more blood to flow in the organs. That's more flow to flush waste out, more flow to deliver oxygen. Overall it greatly tonifies organ Qi.

[gendao]

Silicon, can you share instructions for yonyasana please? I am interested!

 

Nomad, check out yogajournal.com ...look up hip openers, and articles about padmasana/lotus. There's a lot of great tips there. Hip opening is the key to your success with this.

Ditto please on the instructions, Silicon...

 

And here are some of the preparatory poses:

Ardha Matsyendrasana

Baddha Konasana

Janu Sirsasana

Virasana

Edited September 24, 2014 by vortex

[宁]

Thank you Song Yongdao. I'll try to keep it up.

I'm sure there is more to know about the lotus pose than we can imagine

[Andrei]

for Little1:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 11, 2009 by steam

[effilang]

So while I sit in full-lotus meditating, the posture doesn't really hurt until I immediately get out of the position, during which it is my left foot that begins to hurt - because of the bend to get onto my thigh I presume - is this normal?

 

Try this OP:

[voidisyinyang]

Read Muktananda's autobiography -- he trained in full-lotus and then he got this huge hard on right before his channels opened up. Or read "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" -- trans. by Charles Luk. The retained sex energy is what enables you to stay in full-lotus.

 

Or you can read my "Yan Xin Secrets" article - http://mind-energy.net archives essentially when your legs are numb it means the energy is in your upper body. Now as the shoulders and neck channels open up the energy is in your brain -- now the energy will go out your eyes. If you want that energy to go back to your lower body to open up your legs then hold your hands with your palms facing your eyes, while the hand in front of the lower tan tien. Bend your head a bit so that the energy shooting out of your eyes (even when closed) -- it's the third eye energy -- will get sucked up by the lower half of your body. This is because the upper half is yang and lower half yin.

 

As you combine this with standing exercises and get chi through your arms then when in full-lotus and your legs go numb in great pain -- try this. Make a sword fingers with your hand -- use thumb to hold the pinky and 4th finger so the 2nd and 3rd point out as a sword. Then point that at the bottom of your feet. Sword fingers is used to BREAK UP energy blockages. Then the pain will go away fast and you can continue in full-lotus.

 

But then after the third eye opens up the yang energy in your brain can just be shot out to any yin source meanwhile the full-lotus is SUCKING UP YIN ENERGY from the pressure on your legs. And this is a free energy exchange and the pain in your legs goes away from having full-body internal climaxes. AGAIN SEE THE FIRST TWO BOOKS I REFERENCED ABOVE -- have a nice day people!

Edited November 13, 2009 by drewhempel

[gendao]

Read Muktananda's autobiography -- he trained in full-lotus and then he got this huge hard on right before his channels opened up. Or read "Taoist Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality" -- trans. by Charles Luk. The retained sex energy is what enables you to stay in full-lotus.

 

Or you can read my "Yan Xin Secrets" article - http://mind-energy.net archives essentially when your legs are numb it means the energy is in your upper body. Now as the shoulders and neck channels open up the energy is in your brain -- now the energy will go out your eyes. If you want that energy to go back to your lower body to open up your legs then hold your hands with your palms facing your eyes, while the hand in front of the lower tan tien. Bend your head a bit so that the energy shooting out of your eyes (even when closed) -- it's the third eye energy -- will get sucked up by the lower half of your body. This is because the upper half is yang and lower half yin.

 

As you combine this with standing exercises and get chi through your arms then when in full-lotus and your legs go numb in great pain -- try this. Make a sword fingers with your hand -- use thumb to hold the pinky and 4th finger so the 2nd and 3rd point out as a sword. Then point that at the bottom of your feet. Sword fingers is used to BREAK UP energy blockages. Then the pain will go away fast and you can continue in full-lotus.

 

But then after the third eye opens up the yang energy in your brain can just be shot out to any yin source meanwhile the full-lotus is SUCKING UP YIN ENERGY from the pressure on your legs. And this is a free energy exchange and the pain in your legs goes away from having full-body internal climaxes. AGAIN SEE THE FIRST TWO BOOKS I REFERENCED ABOVE -- have a nice day people!

Interesting, according to Taoist Yoga, you should eventually start getting non-sexual hard-ons during meditation...before your breakthrough. Something similar also happened to Glenn Morris as well.

 

And, do you mean hold both hands down in front of your LTT, or one in front of your 3rd eye and the other down in front of your LTT?

[voidisyinyang]

Both hands down in front. But keep 'em to yourself! haha. Also "real" meditation is after nirvikalpa samadhi -- which means the full body is filled with electromagnetic fields and there's been a vortex of spacetime around the body. As Master Nan, Huai-chin explains this is very rare for modern practitioners since "heroic overexurberance" causes the person to "fall back into wordliness" -- that's what happened with me. Jim Nance did break through to fully open his third eye -- what Gurdjieff calls a Number 5 person. Master Nan emphasizes that all this focus on the small universe microcosmic orbit is in the realm of form yet there are different levels of emptiness -- of the formless realm. So Vortex when you posted that question poll about the macrocosmic orbit? Master Nan, Huai-chin states that a person can experience ANY level of spiritual power but that does not mean the level is STABILIZED. Or if you prefer STABILISED. haha.

 

Interesting, according to Taoist Yoga, you should eventually start getting non-sexual hard-ons during meditation...before your breakthrough. Something similar also happened to Glenn Morris as well.

 

And, do you mean hold both hands down in front of your LTT, or one in front of your 3rd eye and the other down in front of your LTT?

[Eviander]

Don't you have to let your belly out like the Buddha to get into full lotus comfortably? Or do I just need to do more practice?

[Seth Ananda]

I totaly agree that the flexibility should come from the hips for this, Good link Vortex, But there are lots of really good Hip streches.

I have been experiencing extended sits in lotus without numbness or soreness afterwards because my energy is circulating so well through the leg channels. It keeps all the blood vesels open and circulation stays happy

Keep cultivating Chi!

[gendao]

Both hands down in front. But keep 'em to yourself! haha. Also "real" meditation is after nirvikalpa samadhi -- which means the full body is filled with electromagnetic fields and there's been a vortex of spacetime around the body. As Master Nan, Huai-chin explains this is very rare for modern practitioners since "heroic overexurberance" causes the person to "fall back into wordliness" -- that's what happened with me. Jim Nance did break through to fully open his third eye -- what Gurdjieff calls a Number 5 person. Master Nan emphasizes that all this focus on the small universe microcosmic orbit is in the realm of form yet there are different levels of emptiness -- of the formless realm. So Vortex when you posted that question poll about the macrocosmic orbit? Master Nan, Huai-chin states that a person can experience ANY level of spiritual power but that does not mean the level is STABILIZED. Or if you prefer STABILISED. haha.

I thought once you open your MCO or awaken your kundalini, it's permanent, though?

 

Also, what is Gurdjeff's numbered list of levels?

 

Seth - I have since found that the one key stretch is actually this one.

That

is actually quite on-point.

[voidisyinyang]

Essentially the small universe Level 1 sitting meditation C.D. is the easiest way to get into full-lotus http://springforestqigong.com

 

So you create electromagnetic fields by sublimated sex energy and then ionizing it (purifying it through mind focus that creates ultrasound ionization).... and then the energy points open up.

 

Sitting in full-lotus is not just flexibility -- but the whole Western yoga trend right now is fixated on flexibility.

 

The goal is to open the third eye not do the splits! haha.

 

Also the Buddha "chi" belly is a total myth -- Master Ni, Hua-chi -- the Taoist Master in L.A. explains this. The "Buddha Belly" is to get more money as wealth!

 

Chunyi Lin did the 49 day fast at the mountain where Lao Tzu did his meditation -- training with Master Zhang. After that it's the "modified bigu" diet.

 

The vagus nerve, once ionized, transduces serotonin up into the pineal gland but the vagus nerve also transduces anaerobic bacteria (shit!).

 

So the diet has to be very careful -- and yes there's no turning back. Once the pineal gland is permanently magnetized then you've reached a Number 4 person, as per Gurdjieff's system.

 

Gurdjieff just modified the Mahayana levels of consciousness -- so the ego is the 7th level of consciousness. Conceptual thinking is the 6th level of consciousness and the universe if the 8th level of consciousness. But to resonate with the 8th level of consciousness you have to first open up the first 5 levels of consciousness which are the levels of the body.

 

If you study Ouspensky's book on Gurdjieff just IGNORE Ouspensky but read the Gurdjieff quotes -- then use it to analyze "Taoist Yoga" book -- the Ouspensky book is "In Search of the Miraculous" -- and Gurdjieff taught alchemy which is universal. So you'll find that "In Search of the Miraculous" is the SAME as the Taoist Yoga book....just as Ch'an combined Taoism and Buddhism.