What is a phenomenon?

[Vajrahridaya]

Yup... very good.

 

There is only the flow, either experienced as liberated or bound. Either Rigpa or Marigpa. There is no super-awareness to take refuge in, there is only truly realizing dependent origination. Even saying emptiness and focusing on emptiness people tend to subtly reify as we have seen over and over from people in this thread who talk about what things dissolve into, etc.

 

There is no dissolving in a literal sense, because that's like some sort of catch all. Rather recognition of dependent origination is also dependent origination.

 

Of course, yes, it stops being conceptual, so the conceptual dissolves into the experiential but that includes the experience and arising of concepts. Even concepts as big cosmic consciousness non-dual experience concepts that don't seem like concepts but are also just those... big golden cosmic concepts. Non-phenomenal phenomena's which people have a tendency to think emptiness means. But nope.

 

Xabir, good stuff man.

[Siliconvalley1]

Yup... very good.

 

There is only the flow, either experienced as liberated or bound. Either Rigpa or Marigpa. There is no super-awareness to take refuge in, there is only truly realizing dependent origination. Even saying emptiness and focusing on emptiness people tend to subtly reify as we have seen over and over from people in this thread who talk about what things dissolve into, etc.

 

There is no dissolving in a literal sense, because that's like some sort of catch all. Rather recognition of dependent origination is also dependent origination.

 

Of course, yes, it stops being conceptual, so the conceptual dissolves into the experiential but that includes the experience and arising of concepts. Even concepts as big cosmic consciousness non-dual experience concepts that don't seem like concepts but are also just those... big golden cosmic concepts. Non-phenomenal phenomena's which people have a tendency to think emptiness means. But nope.

 

Xabir, good stuff man.

 

 

Is not this patting each other's back triangle getting a little boring?

[Vajrahridaya]

Is not this patting each other's back triangle getting a little boring?

 

Oh not at all! I love what Xabir keeps pulling out of the woodworks...

 

I love his presentations!

 

Because meditative experience can be so deceptive, one needs this type of stuff.

 

Because Advaita is all about reifying the meditative experience it misses out on what vipassana actually means and why exactly the Buddha left the Hindu master who had mastered the state of beyond perception and non-perception which is the highest state of meditation and the Buddha said, that's still not liberation. But Advaita's entire philosophy revolves around that level of meditation and thinking everything is superimposed over it as if that was the end all be all cosmic consciousness. There is no cosmic consciousness in Buddhism.

 

So... this pat each other on the back stuff is wonderful, because I love seeing how Michael understands the differences in the different religions. Not all great teachers were actually fully enlightened. Not all religions lead to the same place.

 

The cosmos is just more complicated than that.

[dwai]

Oh not at all! I love what Xabir keeps pulling out of the woodworks...

 

I love his presentations!

 

Because meditative experience can be so deceptive, one needs this type of stuff.

 

Because Advaita is all about reifying the meditative experience it misses out on what vipassana actually means and why exactly the Buddha left the Hindu master who had mastered the state of beyond perception and non-perception which is the highest state of meditation and the Buddha said, that's still not liberation. But Advaita's entire philosophy revolves around that level of meditation and thinking everything is superimposed over it as if that was the end all be all cosmic consciousness. There is no cosmic consciousness in Buddhism.

 

So... this pat each other on the back stuff is wonderful, because I love seeing how Michael understands the differences in the different religions. Not all great teachers were actually fully enlightened. Not all religions lead to the same place.

 

The cosmos is just more complicated than that.

 

There is no cosmic consciousness in Buddhism, but you sure are demonstrating how comical the consciousness can be, when an inherently unconscious human being begins to think that he is enlightened!

[goldisheavy]

D.O. and Emptiness as a view, as a concept, gets dissolved in the end into the direct experience of it in real time.

 

That's wrong. You're implying that some experiences, namely those prior to the special DO dissolving experience, are experiences of something other than DO.

 

In fact, all experiences are experiences of DO. The view of DO cannot dissolve. What happens is that a naive understanding of DO dissolves so that you don't have to defend or explain DO as "if this, than that" simplistic formula. What you get then is called "skillful means". Then you begin to see how you can use anything to explain anything, because of the empty nature of all phenomena. Then you get skillful. This means you don't need to follow other people's recipes, but you become the Chef who can come up with his own recipe.

 

Something like that.

 

But there is still no, "I was his parents" identification pride since the whole net is empty and your personal mind stream still has it's own infinite connectivity which means without end that is unique.

 

What you describe is a lot more constipated then what it really feels like. In reality you experience limitless boundless freedom. It means you can feel pride if you want. You can be the father of everything or the daughter of an ant, or anything. You can be anything or nothing. You feel a wide-open sky of endless possibility.

 

What you're describing is like looking at the sky through a straw. Avoiding pride is just a method in the very beginning, BEFORE you become a contemplator.

 

When you begin to contemplate, very quickly, I would say in about 5 years or less, you will transcend all issues of pride and will move completely beyond having or not having pride or any other emotion for that matter. Pride is important to people who cannot contemplate. Basically teachings on pride are teachings for morons. Morons always like to fixate and to adhere to dogmatic views. Then when they feel they have adhered to "the right view" they get all puffed up and proud and feel they've reached the limit of truth. For these people there exist teachings that instead of explaining the subtle error just tell them to "stop feeling proud", which is a brute force approach. Instead of explaining the cause of pride and the illusory nature of both the cause and pride, you tell the person to "stop it!". That's brute force.

 

Brute force shouldn't be used, but spiritual teachers are lazy bastards and have no patience with the most hard-headed students and so give these really bad teachings to basically shut the student up and make him/her go away. It's not nice, but it's what happens. Then someone like me has to go around and fix the shit for the lazy teacher.

Edited June 24, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Sunya]

Brute force shouldn't be used, but spiritual teachers are lazy bastards and have no patience with the most hard-headed students and so give these really bad teachings to basically shut the student up and make him/her go away. It's not nice, but it's what happens. Then someone like me has to go around and fix the shit for the lazy teacher.

 

 

well thankfully we have you around. what would we do without you?

who has pride again?

[Vajrahridaya]

There is no cosmic consciousness in Buddhism, but you sure are demonstrating how comical the consciousness can be, when an inherently unconscious human being begins to think that he is enlightened!

 

Ah... more Ad-homs.

 

I never said I was a Buddha and admit that I am not.

 

But, I have experienced what is cosmic consciousness as well as consciousness without fetter in meditation and saguna brahman and at one time for a timeless state of deep, deep meditation I experienced the state beyond perception and non-perception totally lucid, no universe, no there having been a universe and that everything is really this. But, that's not what emptiness means. I did associate this experience with Brahman that underlies everything, but later I realized that it was a state of meditation originating dependent upon causes and conditions of merit from previous lives and spontaneously occurred through osmosis in front of a highly realized Shaivite Master.

 

 

But...

There is no full realization through Advaita Vedanta.

 

I have experienced directly Sat, Chit, Ananda and once subscribed to the interpretation of experience through Vedanta and thought all paths lead to Rome.

 

Then I realized the 6 realms, the 31 abodes "directly" in a state of utter transcendent bliss consciousness that had no clinging, and saw through my previous misunderstanding through a realization of Dharmakaya. Or what is called Rigpa in Dzogchen. I walked around for hours in a state of utter emptiness and total lightness of being and sensitivity with information channeling on infinite levels where each moment could write volumes.

 

I don't have complete stability in Rigpa though. I have plenty of Marigpa and states of total non-enlightenment. But in one glimpse transmitted through ChNNR's lineage. I saw through my previous misunderstanding which was housed in Advaita Vedanta/Theism/Monism.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Siliconvalley1]

Brute force shouldn't be used, but spiritual teachers are lazy bastards and have no patience with the most hard-headed students and so give these really bad teachings to basically shut the student up and make him/her go away.

 

That doesn't always work I guess? Does it? Such students begin to preach elsewhere and claim to have experienced it all and understood it all ... but we all love stand up, don't we?

[goldisheavy]

well thankfully we have you around. what would we do without you?

who has pride again?

 

Right. Good question. Who?

[Vajrahridaya]

 

Brute force shouldn't be used, but spiritual teachers are lazy bastards and have no patience with the most hard-headed students and so give these really bad teachings to basically shut the student up and make him/her go away. It's not nice, but it's what happens. Then someone like me has to go around and fix the shit for the lazy teacher.

 

ROFL!!

 

Yeah, right...

 

Go look in the mirror heavy as gold ego.

 

 

 

That doesn't always work I guess? Does it? Such students begin to preach elsewhere and claim to have experienced it all and understood it all ... but we all love stand up, don't we?

 

My next door neighbor sells stand up tickets in Times Square... I bet I can get you some for free!

 

 

What's interesting about my understanding, as low as it may be, as it is backed up by real Mahasiddhas from real lineage.

 

Your's are just new agey mumbo gumbo jumbo.

 

I like soup... but not those made of spiritual traditions that with clarity, one can see that they do not all speak the same truth. Though they all speak of meditation, prayer and morals.

 

 

Right. Good question. Who?

 

I love you GIH! I think you mean well. I give you a huuuuge hug!!

 

Big ups bro!!

[Siliconvalley1]

ROFL!!

 

Yeah, right...

 

Go look in the mirror heavy as gold ego.

My next door neighbor sells stand up tickets in Times Square... I bet I can get you some for free!

 

 

What's interesting about my understanding, as low as it may be, as it is backed up by real Mahasiddhas from real lineage.

 

Your's are just new agey mumbo gumbo jumbo.

 

I like soup... but not those made of spiritual traditions that with clarity, one can see that they do not all speak the same truth. Though they all speak of meditation, prayer and morals.

 

 

Well you have no clue about my lineage or practice do you? I won't spend time explaining that to you, someone who has not left the shores of US but "learnt" from the true lineage of Mahasiddhas in about 4 years after advertising for a guru on E-sangha. As what you write - stuff you read here and there with such imperfection, speak for your perception of things. Even Mikaelz seems to make more sense than you at times...actually most of the times.. I guess a lot of people on this board - way ahead in practice, understanding and realization than myself - don't comment on your claims and "my way is the only way" because they understand, and non-superficially. That I get tempted to respond to folks like you now and then shows I need to practice much harder There is never a Taomeow or a Vajrasattva involved in such discussions, I guess that is the personal lesson for me from this thread

Edited June 24, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[Vajrahridaya]

Well you have no clue about my lineage or practice do you? I won't spend time explaining that to you, someone who has not left the shores of US but "learnt" from the true lineage of Mahasiddhas in about 4 years after advertising for a guru on E-sangha. As what you write - stuff you read here and there with such imperfection, speak for your perception of things. Even Mikaelz seems to make more sense than you at times...actually most of the times.. I guess a lot of people on this board - way ahead in practice, understanding and realization than myself - don't comment on your claims and "my way is the only way" because they understand, and non-superficially. That I get tempted to respond to folks like you now and then shows I need to practice much harder There is never a Taomeow or a Vajrasattva involved in such discussions, I guess that is the personal lesson for me from this thread

 

My realization is not from 4 years of practice. I practiced in Advaita Vedanta my whole life and accumulated merits and realizations there before coming to Buddhism. I have just a more clear interpretation of my previous realizations now through Buddhism. Which most of it's accumulation is memory. One can realize in one moment of Rigpa more than what some people practice for lifetimes in other traditions. Which you think of course is just my own mind conjuring. Which is a good way to dismiss something that challenges your understanding.

 

Also... it's not my way is the only way. It's Buddha's way is the only way and how he's interpreted is not agreed upon by all traditions. But, I do follow the Rime way in Tibetan Buddhism and can understand the need for the Shentog substantialist view, but can understand how it mis-leads as well.

 

I am indeed nobody. But, I do so like to ramble.

 

In no ambiguous terms. The Mahasiddhas have stated how Buddha's way is the only way.

I agree with the Dalai Lama as well who also say's that only the matrix of Realized Buddhas who realized through the Buddhayana can truly give proper teachings to the way out of Samsaric experience.

 

So Mr. Silliconvalley Zen/Taoist dude...

 

I do think that your view is very skewered if even Nagarjuna and Sakya Pandita, as well as so many others say that Buddhayana is the only true and complete path to liberation. I don't think I'm right... I understand how I'm correct.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[dwai]

Ah... more Ad-homs.

 

I never said I was a Buddha and admit that I am not.

 

But, I have experienced what is cosmic consciousness as well as consciousness without fetter in meditation and saguna brahman and at one time for a timeless state of deep, deep meditation I experienced the state beyond perception and non-perception totally lucid, no universe, no there having been a universe and that everything is really this. But, that's not what emptiness means. I did associate this experience with Brahman that underlies everything, but later I realized that it was a state of meditation originating dependent upon causes and conditions of merit from previous lives and spontaneously occurred through osmosis in front of a highly realized Shaivite Master.

 

Saguna Brahman != Nirguna Brahman.

 

But...

There is no full realization through Advaita Vedanta.

 

I have experienced directly Sat, Chit, Ananda and once subscribed to the interpretation of experience through Vedanta and thought all paths lead to Rome.

 

Then I realized the 6 realms, the 31 abodes "directly" in a state of utter transcendent bliss consciousness that had no clinging, and saw through my previous misunderstanding through a realization of Dharmakaya. Or what is called Rigpa in Dzogchen. I walked around for hours in a state of utter emptiness and total lightness of being and sensitivity with information channeling on infinite levels where each moment could write volumes.

 

I don't have complete stability in Rigpa though. I have plenty of Marigpa and states of total non-enlightenment. But in one glimpse transmitted through ChNNR's lineage. I saw through my previous misunderstanding which was housed in Advaita Vedanta/Theism/Monism.

 

you have experienced nothing. I guess that is very apt given your Buddhistic proclivity to nihilism.

I don't claim to have had any insights or experiences as as those you have claimed, and my skepticism about your accomplishments are indeed my intuition (prajna)...

 

My spiritual quest is very much that of a beginner. I started only 15 years ago...I try and get through my taiji practice without letting my inner demons eat me up. I try and get through meditation without letting the noise distract the moments of silence that intersperse the shit that flows through all the time.

 

Sometimes in moments of silence some insights arise. Maybe they are right, may be they are wrong. Those insights lead me to want to know more about Infinity.

 

I can tell you who on this forum have semblance of adeptness in their respective fields (doesn't take a lot to figure that out). You don't make the cut.

 

At the end of the day, each one of us have to watch out for ourselves. If we delude ourselves into thinking we are bodhisattvas (or even half-baked ones), we risk recycling in samsara like the egoic ghosts we are. If we are realistic about who/what we are and our limitations, we have the chance to try improve ourselves.

[Vajrahridaya]

Saguna Brahman != Nirguna Brahman.

 

Saguna brahman is brahman with form... the experience that of all things are brahman, one with one's universal consciousness experience of Sat Chit and Ananda as a oneness.

 

you have experienced nothing. I guess that is very apt given your Buddhistic proclivity to nihilism.

 

No, the experience of nothingness, on a conscious level is experiencing that there is no universe and never was a universe and one is conscious of this... there is no time here... but there is no seer of time either... it's not even the level of beyond perception or non-perception.

 

I don't claim to have had any insights or experiences as as those you have claimed, and my skepticism about your accomplishments are indeed my intuition (prajna)...

 

No, it's not prajna, it's just your projection of self doubt. I used to meditate consciously for 4 to 6 hours a day and chant 4 to 6 hours a day and offer seva for 6 hours a day either inside or living near an ashram for many years of my life. This bares fruit. Doesn't matter if you accept this fact.

 

My spiritual quest is very much that of a beginner. I started only 15 years ago...I try and get through my taiji practice without letting my inner demons eat me up. I try and get through meditation without letting the noise distract the moments of silence that intersperse the shit that flows through all the time.

 

Practice seeing the shit as one with infinite consciousness... you'll experience saguna consciousness eventually.

 

Sometimes in moments of silence some insights arise. Maybe they are right, may be they are wrong. Those insights lead me to want to know more about Infinity.

 

Of course they do. They are touches and they are very important and a reflection of your merit! Your merit will only grow if you follow this urge to know how everything works. follow it with passion! But also contemplate what passion is and what is the end of passion.

 

I can tell you who on this forum have semblance of adeptness in their respective fields (doesn't take a lot to figure that out). You don't make the cut.

 

Ok. Not trying to be a cut.

 

I'm also not into reading minds... I will block all that out, consciously. To many files and causes to the effect in peoples infinitudes. Better to be clear and physical about things, so that one knows that no subjective projecting is going on.

 

At the end of the day, each one of us have to watch out for ourselves. If we delude ourselves into thinking we are bodhisattvas (or even half-baked ones), we risk recycling in samsara like the egoic ghosts we are. If we are realistic about who/what we are and our limitations, we have the chance to try improve ourselves.

 

That is very true...

Edited June 24, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[contrivedname!]

Go look in the mirror heavy as gold ego.

 

I never said I was a Buddha and admit that I am not.

 

But, I have experienced what is cosmic consciousness as well as consciousness without fetter in meditation and saguna brahman and at one time for a timeless state of deep, deep meditation I experienced the state beyond perception and non-perception totally lucid, no universe, no there having been a universe and that everything is really this. But, that's not what emptiness means. I did associate this experience with Brahman that underlies everything, but later I realized that it was a state of meditation originating dependent upon causes and conditions of merit from previous lives and spontaneously occurred through osmosis in front of a highly realized Shaivite Master.

But...

There is no full realization through Advaita Vedanta.

 

I have experienced directly Sat, Chit, Ananda and once subscribed to the interpretation of experience through Vedanta and thought all paths lead to Rome.

 

Then I realized the 6 realms, the 31 abodes "directly" in a state of utter transcendent bliss consciousness that had no clinging, and saw through my previous misunderstanding through a realization of Dharmakaya. Or what is called Rigpa in Dzogchen. I walked around for hours in a state of utter emptiness and total lightness of being and sensitivity with information channeling on infinite levels where each moment could write volumes.

 

I don't have complete stability in Rigpa though. I have plenty of Marigpa and states of total non-enlightenment. But in one glimpse transmitted through ChNNR's lineage. I saw through my previous misunderstanding which was housed in Advaita Vedanta/Theism/Monism.

 

just because you put that disclaimer there doesnt mean your ego isnt soaring

[Vajrahridaya]

just because you put that disclaimer there doesnt mean your ego isnt soaring

 

To many high flying jets... can't... get... off... the.... groooooouuuuund!

 

Darn it... where's my proverbial lasso!

Edited June 24, 2009 by Vajrahridaya

[Sunya]

blah blah blah blah

 

for someone very steeped in eternalist views, hearing the Buddha's philosophy wont' work since they will only understand that philosophy through eternalist lenses. hearing others experiential insights won't work either because there will always be doubt. really, it must be accepted that not everyone can play guitar. so let's all just simmer down..

Edited June 24, 2009 by mikaelz

[Siliconvalley1]

really, it must be accepted that not everyone can play guitar. so let's all just simmer down..

 

 

Yes, but most can recognize, even if they cannot play themselves, when someone else is actually playing music as against beating it to death - all the time thinking he is playing music

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, but most can recognize, even if they cannot play themselves, when someone else is actually playing music as against beating it to death - all the time thinking he is playing music

'Honestly... compassionately.. poor fool. Get humble hamburger.

[dwai]

blah blah blah blah

 

For someone very steeped in nihilist theory, hearing the true words of Eternal freedom (advaita vedanta) won't work, since they will only understand the philosophy through the nihilistic lenses. They dont even realize that they don't understand the very philosophy they are touting around as being the best. If they did, they'd shut up and practice instead...

 

 

 

Saguna brahman is brahman with form... the experience that of all things are brahman, one with one's universal consciousness experience of Sat Chit and Ananda as a oneness.

No, the experience of nothingness, on a conscious level is experiencing that there is no universe and never was a universe and one is conscious of this... there is no time here... but there is no seer of time either... it's not even the level of beyond perception or non-perception.

No, it's not prajna, it's just your projection of self doubt. I used to meditate consciously for 4 to 6 hours a day and chant 4 to 6 hours a day and offer seva for 6 hours a day either inside or living near an ashram for many years of my life. This bares fruit. Doesn't matter if you accept this fact.

Practice seeing the shit as one with infinite consciousness... you'll experience saguna consciousness eventually.

Of course they do. They are touches and they are very important and a reflection of your merit! Your merit will only grow if you follow this urge to know how everything works. follow it with passion! But also contemplate what passion is and what is the end of passion.

Ok. Not trying to be a cut.

 

I'm also not into reading minds... I will block all that out, consciously. To many files and causes to the effect in peoples infinitudes. Better to be clear and physical about things, so that one knows that no subjective projecting is going on.

That is very true...

 

you are full of something...the word for it escapes me....oh...it rhymes with sit.

 

I edited out the real word for effect...

Edited June 24, 2009 by dwai

[Siliconvalley1]

'Honestly... compassionately.. poor fool. Get humble hamburger.

Alternately, you can stop hamming.. and it will force some humility up your ...

 

And may be your girlfriend with stay a lil longer ... if that crying and hamming stops

 

Just curious, what is your Yidam or Ishta devata? Which of the five Kulas do you belong to?

Edited June 24, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[rex]

This may be total bollocks but here goes...

 

A phenomenon is an imputation of mind. The act of imputation itself is also a phenomenon, as is mind imputing its own self-aware existence through recognising its ability for cognition.

 

The act of non-imputation is also a phenomenon though whether this is from dullness and a lack of acuity or through some other state is another matter entirely.

 

It basically comes down to the mind being the universal ordering principle and the philosophy comes in when trying to account for what is beyond mind - assuming that this is seen as an important question.

[dwai]

This may be total bollocks but here goes...

 

A phenomenon is an imputation of mind. The act of imputation itself is also a phenomenon, as is mind imputing its own self-aware existence through recognising its ability for cognition.

 

The act of non-imputation is also a phenomenon though whether this is from dullness and a lack of acuity or through some other state is another matter entirely.

 

It basically comes down to the mind being the universal ordering principle and the philosophy comes in when trying to account for what is beyond mind - assuming that this is seen as an important question.

 

indeed....mind is a field of thoughts.

But it rises from and sinks into consciousness.

[Siliconvalley1]

Edited June 24, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[Vajrahridaya]

blah blah blah blah

 

For someone very steeped in nihilist theory, hearing the true words of Eternal freedom (advaita vedanta) won't work, since they will only understand the philosophy through the nihilistic lenses. They dont even realize that they don't understand the very philosophy they are touting around as being the best. If they did, they'd shut up and practice instead...

you are full of something...the word for it escapes me....oh...it rhymes with sit.

 

I edited out the real word for effect...

 

Buddhism is beyond nihilism and eternalism.

 

Dependent origination neither posits an eternally self sustaining substance, nor does it deny relative existence.

 

May your doubts fall away and true insight arise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alternately, you can stop hamming.. and it will force some humility up your ...

 

And may be your girlfriend with stay a lil longer ... if that crying and hamming stops

 

Just curious, what is your Yidam or Ishta devata? Which of the five Kulas do you belong to?

 

Oh, she wishes to stick around forever.

 

I have no Ishta Deva anymore though it used to be Shiva and I don't go to any Guru Kula's or Ashrams anymore because I have renounced eternalism/theism/monism. Though I might go see Amachi because it's fine to hang out with the God's as long as I don't get caught up in their ideas about reality. Good energy is good energy.

 

 

I do deity yoga with Padmasambhava and I do Guru Yoga with Chogyal Namkhai Norbu Rinpoche. Sometimes I do Guru Yoga merging all Rinpoche's with Garab Dorje. But mainly I try to stay in Rigpa and see the self liberating nature of all things as Samantabhadra (the all good). Which is basically just recognizing dependent origination/emptiness and is not at all a substantial essence.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

indeed....mind is a field of thoughts.

But it rises from and sinks into consciousness.

 

Consciousness arises due to causes and conditions as well, but de-compounds when it's dependently originated nature is realized, thus it shines all around, experientially free and liberated even from itself.

 

There is nothing that things arise from and pass away into, that's why things are inherently liberated, because there is no self essence behind anything.

 

"Because this arises, that arises" in an endless and beginningless chain.