what is the value of philosophical debate

[Guest paul walter]

But what if we treat philosophy and discourse not as a journey through which we hope to arrive at a distanced truth, but simply as an expression of the truth or the situation that is at hand (and an expression of the truth that is continually emerging)? What if, to the extent that we have questions, we do not expect to answer them, but merely articulate the mystery in which we find ourselves and possible ways of regarding this mystery?

 

 

To the first part- because we are living/acknowledging life through living, why relive them through reacknowledgement through language constructs. What's the real need for expressing truths that continually emerge-it's just taking a photograph of what we are already looking at except that through the power of self hypnosis (belief that what we think we are we are) we take the photo as some kind of valid and comparable reality that we need? I know what you're saying-but do you know?HEHE.

 

Self-examination is a harsh and brutal thing because we resist. If we don't resist we become free of it all. The mystery is the mystery,ultimately if you are not comfortable in the 'mystery'of the universe you are insecure and you are trying to control and build safety nets. If there are possible ways of regarding mystery then it's philosophy (interpretation) and not really mystery anymore. There is an understanding beyond words (and because of words that very line has lost its meaning and is seen as merely an IDEA now. There is NO way of communicating reality through language-it's very simple AND profound. Can't be done,just ever changing opinions,knowledge bases, inspirations.... Being cruel to be kind-Paul.

[Guest paul walter]

Not right. Most people in America would not make that claim. And among the minority that would, most are not being honest; or more precisely, have not engaged in sufficient self-inquiry to make an honest judgment in the matter.

 

Persons with language and education cannot simply drop them, and exist. Deconstruction or "controlled demolition" is the only viable option. It will happen whether they explicitly pursue it or not..and people like to talk about stuff that happens, so cut them a little slack, pal.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes, "most" people in America would not make that claim because they probably aren't that honest (you'd have to be at a stage of self evolution where you could say "I'm unhappy with my life"). Doesn't mean it's not running their whole life process.

 

Of course people can't simply drop language and indoctrination and exist, granted, at least socially. But why are you so sure about that? Because that's what you want to think and have been taught and it's the cultural outlook that supports you in your thinking everyday. Honesty is not negotiable like that, it's all or nothing, so you can claim 'this is how it is' but you can't profess honesty in enquiry as well. You are professing a work in progress to a truth that may or may not exist. I know if you get to an end with enquiry through thought you will look back at the process as not an accumulation of wisdom but as AN EXHAUSTION OF POSSIBILITIES AND FUTILITY. If enquiry is an art then it is more like a zen enso than the Sistine Chapel ceiling. My point is that idulgence in methods that aren't that efficient at best and re-inforcing at worst are not getting your questions answered in life. For me daily human communication is like being at an AA meeting, 'self-help' groups or talking to drug-dependant

folks-it's a closed loop entirely referencing the addictive reality of how that person views themselves:

I identify with this as I am an alcoholic, My alcohol controls me that's why I'm here with all you other re-inforcing alcoholics, AA re-inforces that I am an alcoholic and that I should hide it in some way (anonymous), This gives me the strength to come out and seek help, Which makes me not ashamed of being alcoholic, Which means I accept having alcohol consumption problems, Which means I have progressed, Which means I am not ashamed (as I used to be), Which means I don't need to try as hard since the big admission is over....and on.... Look all I'm saying is alcoholics need a huge DE-TOX so their system is cleaned of poisons that spike the organs and systems of the body and they are free of the endless physical and emotional signals that invite them to be slaves to that process of addiction. Honestly for me I find society very very cruel in the way it deals,or not, with people's problems (which it 'creates' in the first place- so I don't want to offend people who identify with this circumstance of being addicted) and I think our main problem is our identification with our abuser and our fear of leaving it all (social solutions) behind. For language/enquiry you must understand that there are inherent 'addictive' substances that are self defeating unless pin-pointed and given the light of day e.g.: fallacy of logic; expectation of outcomes; persona building/re-inforcement; journey/searchers re-inforcement. I'm getting exhausted trying to convince about what I perceive as very basic solutions to confusion/discontent (but that's my problem, I know). Anyway all I'm saying is what all them book things have been saying for thousands of years-and look where that's got us! Those who speak don't know (to myself)..Paul Savonarola.

[solxyz]

because we are living/acknowledging life through living, why relive them through reacknowledgement through language constructs.

 

 

Because symbolic expression is part of the human form of being. As I said in an earlier post, I see human symbolism just like a plant growing into its proper form. If you said to the plant: "why dont you just let sunlight be sunlight and let soil be soil," the plant would say, this is just what I do.

Once you become familiar with the difference between your thoughts/ideas and reality-as-such, thoughts dont have to be a trap anymore. symbolic expression can be a straightforward activity like any other.

Edited June 8, 2009 by solxyz

[Martial Development]

Paul, that is a thoughtful answer. (No offense intended.)

 

...I know if you get to an end with enquiry through thought you will look back at the process as not an accumulation of wisdom but as AN EXHAUSTION OF POSSIBILITIES AND FUTILITY.

 

 

And doesn't AA teach us that addicts may need to hit rock-bottom, before they are ready to accept a change? I presume that includes thought-addicts too.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Martial Development

[Guest paul walter]

Because symbolic expression is part of the human form of being. As I said in an earlier post, I see human symbolism just like a plant growing into its proper form. If you said to the plant: "why dont you just let sunlight be sunlight and let soil be soil," the plant would say, this is just what I do.

Once you become familiar with the difference between your thoughts/ideas and reality-as-such, thoughts dont have to be a trap anymore. symbolic expression can be a straightforward activity like any other.

 

 

 

I think the nature of symbols is to symbolise so I can't follow that symbols are needed for things that are best observed/lived. Why chat about 'reality' when the thing is to observe it?

 

 

I think language is at it's best when it is on lists of grocery items, or PHD's dealing with Derridian textual analysis-you know, things that don't risk much consequence if we express the symbols wrongly. Paul

 

Paul, that is a thoughtful answer. (No offense intended.)

 

And doesn't AA teach us that addicts may need to hit rock-bottom, before they are ready to accept a change? I presume that includes thought-addicts too.

 

 

 

 

 

Touche! Paul

[Unconditioned]

Because symbolic expression is part of the human form of being. As I said in an earlier post, I see human symbolism just like a plant growing into its proper form. If you said to the plant: "why dont you just let sunlight be sunlight and let soil be soil," the plant would say, this is just what I do.

Once you become familiar with the difference between your thoughts/ideas and reality-as-such, thoughts dont have to be a trap anymore. symbolic expression can be a straightforward activity like any other.

 

I agree, we have to be careful not to try to exclude form once we discover formlessness. It is there, there is no intrinsic harm to thinking or symbols. Once we realize that the symbol is not the reality, symbols are symbols and the thing is the thing, it's just what is, where's the harm?

 

When we're caught up in the forms and mistake that for the only reality we're missing the other part. When we're caught in formless and mistake that for the only reality we're missing the other part.

 

Thought and symbols are beautiful tools that we're lucky to have. They're like fire which can be used to light a room, heat a home, or to destroy, devastate but it is what it is, we're just adding (figuratively) our conditioned impression to these tools - and that's ok too, that's what us humans tend to do

 

A lot of people will probably disagree but if you look at all the technology and 'form' achievements throughout humanity it is one of the most beautiful things especially when we understand how it's all come into being.

 

Edit: so what is the value of debate? I'm not a fan of debate because it typically turns into my view vs. your view. My conditioning vs. your conditioning which is really silly when you take a look at it from that perspective. Discussion and exploration, questions that continue with no concrete answers, that seems to be valuable in the sense that it is less likely to strengthen the false ego-identification. They're a temporary aid, like a match stick used to light a fire - once the fire is burning, we don't need the match stick anymore.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Unconditioned

[goldisheavy]

Others? What is philosophy doing for you?

 

To me philosophy, the real kind, is love of wisdom. Philo (love) sophia (wisdom). Engaging in philosophical debate helps to dissolve the seemingly insoluble meanings. It helps to soften the boundaries. It takes what previously seemed like discrete meanings and puts them on a continuum of meaning. It takes what was once taken for granted and obviously self-evident and makes it once again mysterious. It's a first hand encounter with one's own field of meanings. It makes one more aware of the interplay of subtleties. It makes one aware of the empty nature of identities. I say "it makes", but the assumption I am making is that the debate is "properly" performed, and I am going to leave out what it means for the debate to be proper too. Let people decide that for themselves.

 

It's a very worthwhile activity, but like any worthwhile activity, there is a way to overdo it. Sleep too much, drink too much water, exercise too much, do any good thing too much and it will take you into a world of hurt.

Edited June 9, 2009 by goldisheavy