Difference between Tao and Zen?

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Difference between Tao and Zen?

[gendao]

Supposedly, the seed of Zen (from "Chan'an-na" from "Dhyana") Buddhism was planted by Mahakasyapa in India, sprouted and grew in China with the influence of Taoism and reached final flowering in Japan.

Zen means waking up to the present moment. That is, perceiving this moment exactly as it is, rather than through the filter of our ideas, opinions, etc. One way to practice this is to ask yourself a Big Question, such as "What am I?" If you ask such a question strongly and sincerely, what appears is "Don't Know." This don't-know is before thinking.

[Ya Mu]

Japanese doctors did a study with Zen "masters" and Qigong "masters". They measured brain wave patterns. Conclusion was that the Zen and Qigong folks both went into deep relaxation but the Qigong guys has the creative aspect of the brain stimulated while the Zen people did not show this.

[三江源]

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Edited October 14, 2015 by 三江源

[Sunya]

Ah. how extremely interesting to know. thankyou.

 

yes very interesting. let's decide which religion is better by measuring brain waves.

[Ya Mu]

yes very interesting. let's decide which religion is better by measuring brain waves.

 

I don't think the study had anything to do with trying to decide which was better; they were simply trying to see what the difference was in the relaxation response and found this. The last time I checked the practice of qigong or zen practice in itself was not a religion. Perhaps it has changed and no one informed me.

[evZENy]

Cultural differences.

The first Zen patriarchs in Japan are also considered prominent scholars in China.

And they speak of the Way - check Hsin Hsin Ming, for example.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Japanese doctors did a study with Zen "masters" and Qigong "masters". They measured brain wave patterns. Conclusion was that the Zen and Qigong folks both went into deep relaxation but the Qigong guys has the creative aspect of the brain stimulated while the Zen people did not show this.

 

 

So, wait a min. What does QiGong have to do with Zen and Tao? I would think of it this way. Zen is the mind or in the mind and then Tao is more of an action. Therefore, they both compliment each other? Would this be a good assumption?

[evZENy]

Zen is the mind or in the mind and then Tao is more of an action....Would this be a good assumption?

Not for me. Tao is about infinite motion, but always with stillness in it.

[Ya Mu]

So, wait a min. What does QiGong have to do with Zen and Tao? I would think of it this way. Zen is the mind or in the mind and then Tao is more of an action. Therefore, they both compliment each other? Would this be a good assumption?

 

Qigong has everything to do with Tao, since Tao owns qigong. The state of wu wei (harmony/syncronicity with Tao) can be achieved by practicing qigong. Qigong is the tool one can use to experience Tao on an experiential level. Reading 10,000 mis-translated (or even properly translated; remember the Tao that be talked about is NOT the real Tao) books on Taoism/about Tao will not give anyone the insight or connection to the Tao that can be obtained with one hour of proper internal qigong practice.

 

Someone else that knows more about Zen can address the other part of your assumption.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

Qigong has everything to do with Tao, since Tao owns qigong. The state of wu wei (harmony/syncronicity with Tao) can be achieved by practicing qigong. Qigong is the tool one can use to experience Tao on an experiential level. Reading 10,000 mis-translated (or even properly translated; remember the Tao that be talked about is NOT the real Tao) books on Taoism/about Tao will not give anyone the insight or connection to the Tao that can be obtained with one hour of proper internal qigong practice.

 

Someone else that knows more about Zen can address the other part of your assumption.

 

Ahh, That makes sense. It's like taking action! So, basically Yoga, Tai Chi all of that is like Qigong? Zen is like Tao because you add meditation and then Tao is like Zen with QiGong? Am I confusing people? Am I getting the right assumption?

[evZENy]

Ahh, That makes sense. It's like taking action! So, basically Yoga, Tai Chi all of that is like Qigong? Zen is like Tao because you add meditation and then Tao is like Zen with QiGong? Am I confusing people? Am I getting the right assumption?

You can confuse people by making a statement that can not be understood.

Right now you are asking questions, that you can not understand :-)

I don't understand where you are going with this. Or why.

Zen and Tao are both ways of life. Beyond mental consttructions, moving or meditation. Both have them all.

Washing the dishes can be both.

[Ya Mu]

Ahh, That makes sense. It's like taking action! So, basically Yoga, Tai Chi all of that is like Qigong? Zen is like Tao because you add meditation and then Tao is like Zen with QiGong? Am I confusing people? Am I getting the right assumption?

 

Uh, yeah, you are confusing me.

 

Yoga is yoga, Tai Chi is Tai Chi; nothing like qigong, which is qigong. In the context talked about in above referenced study Zen is deep state of relaxation and Qigong is deep state of relaxation stimulating creation which is energy and INTENT.

 

Hating to really give definitions, because definitions can be so subjective, depending on the context, etc., and knowing someone will say I am wrong, I will try a very simplified definition:

Yoga - stretching exercises plus - ask somebody else

Tai Chi - Brutal and vicious martial art. Can help circulate energy.

Zen - What I said above plus - ask somebody else

Qigong - Study of energy ; Energy + INTENT = Creation; wu wei, arrived at through qigong and INTENT, state of harmony/synchronicity with Tao

[WhiteTiger]

Not for me. Tao is about infinite motion, but always with stillness in it.

 

I like this definition.

 

Although if we take a braoder look at this definition why do you need to be in motion?

 

Please don't mistake my question for saying you shouldn't be in motion.

 

There are many GOOD reasons to be in motion.

 

Peace, wt

Edited June 5, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[evZENy]

Although if we take a braoder look at this definition why do you need to be in motion?

You don't have to be.

Tao is.

It's not a choice you make. Energy moves. You are alive - you have energy.

I like CHI deciphered as "Continuous, Harmonious, Infinite".

Could be stillness. Could be movement. And as we are talking about energy - it is movement.

 

The moment Tao is not in movement, Yin and Yang are created and the interaction between them. And the constant interplay between them is movement.

Everything in the Universe moves, though many things look still.

 

And in many of the movements, you have this calm filling of stillness. Doesn't have to be Qigong moves. I just finished 3 sets of tennis - got few glimpses, when the swing, the ball and me were Continuous and Harmonious :-)

 

 

 

 

Hating to really give definitions

...

Tai Chi - Brutal and vicious martial art. Can help circulate energy.

 

True. I hate definitions too, exactly because they create disagreement, where (e.g. in this case) probably it does not exist.

Tai Chi Chuan (Taijiquan) - a martial art

Tai Chi (Taiji) - "is a Chinese cosmological term for the "Supreme Ultimate" state of undifferentiated absolute and infinite potentiality" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiji (for example)

 

Yet, I like to say I practice Tai Chi, which I see as form of Qigong - moving my body, energy and spirit. No martial art, though I am awre of the possible applications. The goals are way beyond them. Too far for me to see them :-)

 

labels, labels, labels...

[Sunya]

Yoga is much more than stretching exercises, its a science of various positions (hatha yoga), breathing exercises (pranayama) and more, with the sole purpose of circulating energy in the subtle body, primarily the central channel in pranayama but hatha yoga works all nadis, or meridians as the Taoists call them, which are energy pathways in the subtle body. the purpose of yoga is to experience deeper states of consciousness, or something to that effect.

 

Zen does not have yoga, although posture is extremely important and full lotus is preferred. Zen actually is so influenced by Chinese that they do forms of Qi Gong and even Tai Chi. but the main difference is that Zen incorporates methods that go beyond energy manipulation, such as self inquiry, koans and bare awareness techniques (shikantaza), Zen's purpose is to attain enlightenment for the sake of all beings, as Zen is a school of Mahayana Buddhism. this is a slightly different goal than to ease into the flow of Tao and experience unity or harmony with Tao. Also Zen is considered anti-intellectual by many, but much less so than Taoism. Zen teachers particularly really like the Heart Sutra, so philosophical study is necessary to properly understand meditative experiences.

Edited June 5, 2009 by mikaelz

[Ya Mu]

You don't have to be.

Tao is.

It's not a choice you make. Energy moves. You are alive - you have energy.

I like CHI deciphered as "Continuous, Harmonious, Infinite".

Could be stillness. Could be movement. And as we are talking about energy - it is movement.

 

The moment Tao is not in movement, Yin and Yang are created and the interaction between them. And the constant interplay between them is movement.

Everything in the Universe moves, though many things look still.

 

And in many of the movements, you have this calm filling of stillness. Doesn't have to be Qigong moves. I just finished 3 sets of tennis - got few glimpses, when the swing, the ball and me were Continuous and Harmonious :-)

True. I hate definitions too, exactly because they create disagreement, where (e.g. in this case) probably it does not exist.

Tai Chi Chuan (Taijiquan) - a martial art

Tai Chi (Taiji) - "is a Chinese cosmological term for the "Supreme Ultimate" state of undifferentiated absolute and infinite potentiality" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiji (for example)

 

Yet, I like to say I practice Tai Chi, which I see as form of Qigong - moving my body, energy and spirit. No martial art, though I am awre of the possible applications. The goals are way beyond them. Too far for me to see them :-)

 

labels, labels, labels...

 

I took it he was referring to the taiji, as most everyone seems to abbreviate the martial art to tai chi.

I can see where tai ji can be an energy circulation method but I have never seen it to a very efficient energy cultivation method. Those moves were developed for one thing - to take someone down; break his jaw, block, break his arm, block, stop his heart, etc.

[Siliconvalley1]

Yoga is a word used differently by different Indian systems. Popularly, yoga (yuj dhatu) means union and this is Patanjali's school of thought. This arises from a Samkhya system, a semi-dualistic predecessor of Yoga and here the ultimate goal is to merge with the Supreme. Some even define Samkhya as the theory and Yoga as its practice. Other non-dualistic schools interpret yoga as the path to "realizing" the unbroken and inherent union (non-separateness) of the individual and the supreme. Non-dualistic schools of Hinduism reject the classic yoga system of Patanjali as dualistic and hence incapable of leading one to direct realization. According to them, there is only one yoga - the knowledge of the Self. Other so-called yogas such as Raja (hatha etc.), Bhakti and Karma yogas are upayas or preliminary steps for the less qualified ones. Even nirvikalpa samadhi, the highest state of classic yoga is not an ultimate achievement for a non-dualist as mere absence of duality does not liberate one - rather the knowledge of unity in the face of duality does. While the usefulness of yoga as a preparatory tool is accepted by a non-dualist, it's limitations are realized as well.

 

Zen.. I will let those who know answer that

Edited June 5, 2009 by Siliconvalley1

[dwai]

Yoga is a word used differently by different Indian systems. Popularly, yoga (yuj dhatu) means union and this is Patanjali's school of thought. This arises from a Samkhya system, a semi-dualistic predecessor of Yoga and here the ultimate goal is to merge with the Supreme. Some even define Samkhya as the theory and Yoga as its practice. Other non-dualistic schools interpret yoga as the path to "realizing" the unbroken and inherent union (non-separateness) of the individual and the supreme. Non-dualistic schools of Hinduism reject the classic yoga system of Patanjali as dualistic and hence incapable of leading one to direct realization. According to them, there is only one yoga - the knowledge of the Self. Other so-called yogas such as Raja (hatha etc.), Bhakti and Karma yogas are upayas or preliminary steps for the less qualified ones. Even nirvikalpa samadhi, the highest state of classic yoga is not an ultimate achievement for a non-dualist as mere absence of duality does not liberate one - rather the knowledge of unity in the face of duality does. While the usefulness of yoga as a preparatory tool is accepted by a non-dualist, it's limitations are realized as well.

 

Zen.. I will let those who know answer that

 

Well said. Yoga is Union. Union of what? It works at all levels of duality, just the same as Taoist systems do. The aim is to transcend duality.

 

The goal is to transfix the mind into doing a repetitive action such that the split between subject, object can be created. This in turn leads to inquiry which leads to letting go of the "self" (or simply dropping the self -- getting out of the way as my teacher likes to say).

 

 

Hope this doesn't turn into this vs that slug-fest. It's all good...they are all good ways...to each his/her own.

 

I took it he was referring to the taiji, as most everyone seems to abbreviate the martial art to tai chi.

I can see where tai ji can be an energy circulation method but I have never seen it to a very efficient energy cultivation method. Those moves were developed for one thing - to take someone down; break his jaw, block, break his arm, block, stop his heart, etc.

 

It depends on what level you want to practice Tai ji at.

My teacher says Tai Ji can be practiced as a martial art, a healing art or a system of self-nourishment. They intent in form practice is different and the applications are slightly different.

 

Martial-type focuses on discharging where are nourishing practices focus on re-claiming/cultivating.

[Ya Mu]

Well said. Yoga is Union. Union of what? It works at all levels of duality, just the same as Taoist systems do. The aim is to transcend duality.

 

The goal is to transfix the mind into doing a repetitive action such that the split between subject, object can be created. This in turn leads to inquiry which leads to letting go of the "self" (or simply dropping the self -- getting out of the way as my teacher likes to say).

 

...

My teacher says Tai Ji can be practiced as a martial art, a healing art or a system of self-nourishment. They intent in form practice is different and the applications are slightly different.

 

Martial-type focuses on discharging where are nourishing practices focus on re-claiming/cultivating.

 

I would agree only to the extent that anything can be turned somewhat into a gongfu. If the moves are practiced as developed then energetically they can't be totally separated from the original intent, which is martial. No one can just declare "this is something else" and it be so. Or perhaps we could take brain surgery and "declare" it to be something else and it be so.

[forestofclarity]

The differences are the ones you make.

 

In a lot of Zen literature, they talk about seeing the Tao, realizing the Tao, and so on.

 

Of course, we like to make differences, and often apply labels. This is better, faster, more powerful, and so on. But it is all very ridiculous!

 

Difference between Tao and Zen?

[Iskote]

...

Edited June 7, 2009 by Iskote

[Meson]

I would agree only to the extent that anything can be turned somewhat into a gongfu. If the moves are practiced as developed then energetically they can't be totally separated from the original intent, which is martial.

 

Hi - can you say a bit more about this? I would appreciate it, I have had some reservations along the lines that I think you are talking about here. Especially what you call the original intent!

 

Many thanks.

[Ya Mu]

Hi - can you say a bit more about this? I would appreciate it, I have had some reservations along the lines that I think you are talking about here. Especially what you call the original intent!

 

Many thanks.

 

All I am trying to say is that it is very difficult to get past, energetically speaking, the original intent that something was developed for. Particularly when such time & effort was spent on developing the martial aspect of this. You can think of it as karmic attachment if you want, but it is more of an energetic imprint.

 

I'll give an example of this. I can be practicing movement qigong and my horses will stand around and go into a deep calm trance-like state. Without thinking one bit or tensing up one bit or any change whatsoever but going into taiji or Hsing-I my horses come to attention and the dominant one comes to the front, head curled up and stomping his feet, all are wondering why someone they know and like is challenging them. It is the energetic difference that they feel, not the movement itself, because my qigong movement system is very big with large swooping movements, some of them even resembling their counterpart martial moves.

[Meson]

That's an interesting example; I have been wondering myself about things to do with personal intent and the intent that any system requires of (or imposes on) its practitioners. And when a split emerges between the two.

 

Do you think there's any reason why Oriental internal alchemy has such a strong martial component while other systems don't?