Ya Mu Posted June 7, 2009 ... Do you think there's any reason why Oriental internal alchemy has such a strong martial component while other systems don't? Not all of Chinese internal alchemy is martial; I would say the majority isn't. Learn from a teacher and take everything, especially what you read on the web and in books, with a smile on your face and a doubt in your mind until you prove it to yourself. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted June 8, 2009 All I am trying to say is that it is very difficult to get past, energetically speaking, the original intent that something was developed for. Particularly when such time & effort was spent on developing the martial aspect of this. You can think of it as karmic attachment if you want, but it is more of an energetic imprint. I'll give an example of this. I can be practicing movement qigong and my horses will stand around and go into a deep calm trance-like state. Without thinking one bit or tensing up one bit or any change whatsoever but going into taiji or Hsing-I my horses come to attention and the dominant one comes to the front, head curled up and stomping his feet, all are wondering why someone they know and like is challenging them. It is the energetic difference that they feel, not the movement itself, because my qigong movement system is very big with large swooping movements, some of them even resembling their counterpart martial moves. It depends on the intent behind your practice, imho. The style of Taiji I practice involves practicing single forms repetitively. The long form is done to test whether flow can be maintained through transitions. Emphasis is given to single form practice (the style is called Temple style tai chi). The intent encouraged is to make the practice a nourishing practice, with circulation of chi with the flow and finally drawing it into the lower dan tien at the end of the practice. For the first several years we are not taught transference of power. I have noticed that during practice sometimes little animals are attracted. They will stop and sit and observe me practicing, which I become aware off after a while, usually when transitioning. I have had rabbits, squirrels, feral cats, birds stop moving, and sit around. My teacher said he's had similar experiences too. The forms are the same as anyone would practice I guess. For instance brush knee twist step, grasp sparrow's tail, tai chi stance, raised hand, playing pipa, snake creep's down. I would assume that if the intent applied was martial, the result would be in these animals not staying but scattering. But that's just my interpretation. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ya Mu Posted June 8, 2009 It depends on the intent behind your practice, imho. If that is the case then anyone could say "hi ya" 3 times, turn around and punch air 4 times,t ake one step forward 3 steps backwards and repeat. As long as their intent was on healing or martial, then they would gather qi or be able to strike a person down from the act of doing this repeatedly. While I have no doubt that this would, over a period of time, actually help, the efficiency suffers greatly because the moves described has not much meaning toward martial or energy. While a system geared towards martial is much more efficient for martial because it uses newtonian physics to optimize strikes and a system designed to gather, store, and circulate energy is much more efficient for being able to manipulate energy because it is designed to interact with energy. And in the example I give in previous post above there is no intent change. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted June 8, 2009 If that is the case then anyone could say "hi ya" 3 times, turn around and punch air 4 times,t ake one step forward 3 steps backwards and repeat. As long as their intent was on healing or martial, then they would gather qi or be able to strike a person down from the act of doing this repeatedly. While I have no doubt that this would, over a period of time, actually help, the efficiency suffers greatly because the moves described has not much meaning toward martial or energy. While a system geared towards martial is much more efficient for martial because it uses newtonian physics to optimize strikes and a system designed to gather, store, and circulate energy is much more efficient for being able to manipulate energy because it is designed to interact with energy. And in the example I give in previous post above there is no intent change. According to my teacher, the foundations of taiji chuan are in the 8 energies and 5 directions (or the basic 13 forms) all taiji forms rely on one or several of these energies put together in application (be it healing or martial) to learn to play with these energies one has to learn to cultivate Qi. without cultivation, discharging is like discharging a battery that is not fully charged. Nourishment or Cultivation is paramount. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ya Mu Posted June 8, 2009 (edited) ... to learn to play with these energies one has to learn to cultivate Qi. without cultivation, discharging is like discharging a battery that is not fully charged. Nourishment or Cultivation is paramount. Exactly! So learn a system designed for cultivation if you want to manipulate qi and a system designed for martial if you want to do martial. Taiji is not really designed for cultivation. Circulation, yes. And I am not speaking theoretically or from opinion but from personal learning of both internal qigong cultivation and Taiji and experience teaching hundreds of students from Tai Jee backgrounds. It is a matter of efficiency and what something is designed for and how well the design works. Edited June 8, 2009 by Ya Mu Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted June 8, 2009 Exactly! So learn a system designed for cultivation if you want to manipulate qi and a system designed for martial if you want to do martial. Taiji is not really designed for cultivation. Circulation, yes. And I am not speaking theoretically or from opinion but from personal learning of both internal qigong cultivation and Taiji and experience teaching hundreds of students from Tai Jee backgrounds. It is a matter of efficiency and what something is designed for and how well the design works. Works well for me I guess your experience must have been different than mine. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ya Mu Posted June 8, 2009 Works well for me I guess your experience must have been different than mine. Do you do energy healing (manipulation of qi) based only on your taiji practice? Have you compared an internal qigong form to what you feel when practicing your taiji? How do you know it is "working" for you if you haven't compared the two? Perhaps what you think is "working" is only a small small fraction of what it could be? But if that is what you are comfortable with, then OK. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted June 8, 2009 Do you do energy healing (manipulation of qi) based only on your taiji practice? Have you compared an internal qigong form to what you feel when practicing your taiji? How do you know it is "working" for you if you haven't compared the two? Perhaps what you think is "working" is only a small small fraction of what it could be? But if that is what you are comfortable with, then OK. Indeed...you are right. I can only tell that what I'm learning works. I would love to learn other techniques as well, though Single form Tai Chi IS Qi Gong, is it not? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
Ya Mu Posted June 8, 2009 Indeed...you are right. ... though Single form Tai Chi IS Qi Gong, is it not? This was my whole point that it is not, it is taiji. Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
dwai Posted June 9, 2009 This was my whole point that it is not, it is taiji. Why not? Share this post Link to post Share on other sites
