How do you see chi and biology?

[Pranaman]

Please share your idea of how chi and science work together? I know that science supports the exercise and meditation, two main components of internal martial arts and some qigong. I am not wasting too much time on the topic, but just curious as to how you see these two models intertwined. Chi and the biology of the body and mind, what is their relationship?

[Thunder_Gooch]

Please share your idea of how chi and science work together? I know that science supports the exercise and meditation, two main components of internal martial arts and some qigong. I am not wasting too much time on the topic, but just curious as to how you see these two models intertwined. Chi and the biology of the body and mind, what is their relationship?

 

John Chang says that chi is able to flow easily through metal, my theory is that whatever chi is it's electromagnetic in nature. Many studies done on qigong masters show electromagnetic anomalies, huge electrostatic fields being generated at their palms, ionized channels of air being created during chi projection, huge magnetic field fluctuations around them during meditation, infrared and infrasonic emissions from their palms and also large amounts of gamma band brainwave activity.

[Pranaman]

John Chang says that chi is able to flow easily through metal, my theory is that whatever chi is it's electromagnetic in nature. Many studies done on qigong masters show electromagnetic anomalies, huge electrostatic fields being generated at their palms, ionized channels of air being created during chi projection, huge magnetic field fluctuations around them during meditation, infrared and infrasonic emissions from their palms and also large amounts of gamma band brainwave activity.

 

Can you direct to me your source?

[nac]

John Chang says that chi is able to flow easily through metal, my theory is that whatever chi is it's electromagnetic in nature. Many studies done on qigong masters show electromagnetic anomalies, huge electrostatic fields being generated at their palms, ionized channels of air being created during chi projection, huge magnetic field fluctuations around them during meditation, infrared and infrasonic emissions from their palms and also large amounts of gamma band brainwave activity.

BS. You can win a million dollars if you can do that.

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

[Thunder_Gooch]

BS. You can win a million dollars if you can do that.

 

http://www.randi.org/site/index.php/1m-challenge.html

 

Randi's challenge is for proof of supernatural or occult powers, no such thing exists. Every event and phenomenon is apart of nature and hence natural, even the ones we don't understand yet.

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1767800

 

Effect of emitted bioenergy on biochemical functions of cells. Chien CH, Tsuei JJ, Lee SC, Huang YC, Wei YH.

 

Department of Biochemistry, National Yang-Ming Medical College, Taipei, Taiwan.

 

The 3-5 microns infrared spectra of the external "Qi" generated by a "Qigong" master from his palm was measured using a III-V compound semiconductor InSb detector. It was found that certain Qigong master can emit two opposite kinds of "Qi": the "facilitating" (beneficial) and "inhibiting" (destroying) "Qi". During the facilitating "Qi" emission, large amount of infrared wave were detected by a temperature rise of the air in the vicinity. When the inhibiting "Qi" was emitted, the infrared wave was absorbed from the environment resulting in a cooling of the air.

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1353653

 

 

Detection of extraordinary large bio-magnetic field strength from human hand during external Qi emission.

Seto A, Kusaka C, Nakazato S, Huang WR, Sato T, Hisamitsu T, Takeshige C.

 

Department of Physiology, School of Medicine, Showa University, Tokyo, Japan.

 

It is generally accepted that more than 10(-6) gauss order magnetism was not detected in normal human condition. However, we detected 10(-3) gauss (mGauss) order bio-magnetic field strength from the palm in special persons who emitted External Qi ("Chi" or "Ki"). This detection was possible by special arranged magnetic field detection system, consisted of a pair of 2 identical coils with 80,000 turns and a high sensitivity amplifier. Each of the coils were rolled 80,000 turns accurately, and were connected in series in opposite direction, actuating as a gradiometer.

 

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9051169

 

Emission of extremely strong magnetic fields from the head and whole body during oriental breathing exercises.

Hisamitsu T, Seto A, Nakazato S, Yamamoto T, Aung SK.

 

Department of Physiology, Showa University School of Medicine, Tokyo, Japan.

 

This article reports the result of an experiment that was designed to measure the biomagnetic field emanating from two individuals who were practising traditional Oriental Qi Gong breathing exercises. The biomagnetic field was measured with differential coils wound 80,000 turns, a magnetic needle compass and a digital electromagnetic wave detection device. It was found that an extremely strong magnetic field was emitted from the two individuals. One subject emitted a magnetic field at the level of 200-300 mT (2-3 mGauss) and the other at 0.13 mT (1.3 mGauss). In both cases, moreover, the magnetic needle compass rotated 30 degrees (this was tested 32 times). When the rotation of the needle occurred, a reproducible magnetic field of 800-1500 mT (8-15 mGauss) was indicated on the digital measuring device (this was tested 12 times). It is concluded that traditional Oriental Qi Gong breathing appears to stimulate an unusually large biomagnetic field emission.

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11474806

 

 

 

Effects of QiGong on brain function.

 

1: Neurol Res. 2001 Jul;23(5):501-5.

 

Litscher G, Wenzel G, Niederwieser G, Schwarz G.

 

Biomedical Engineering Unit, Department of Anesthesiology and Critical Care, University of Graz, Auenbruggerplatz 29, A-8036 Graz, Austria. [email protected]

 

QiGong is an ancient and widely practiced Chinese meditation exercise. We studied the effects of QiGong on brain function with modern neuromonitoring tools in two subjects. In a male QiGong master (extremely trained practitioner), the technique induced reproducible changes in transcranial Doppler sonography, EEG, stimulus-induced 40 Hz oscillations, and near-infrared spectroscopy findings. Similar effects were seen after the application of multimodal stimuli and when the master concentrated on intense imagined stimuli (e.g. 22.2% increase in mean blood flow velocity (vm) in the posterior cerebral artery, and a simultaneous 23.1% decrease of vm in the middle cerebral artery). Similar effects were seen in the female subject. Neuromonitoring during QiGong appears able to objectify accompanied cerebral modulations surrounding this old Chinese meditation exercise.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

http://www.scribd.com/doc/192882/Tai-Chi-Q...Experimentation

 

John Chang

RAAB0dbc3Es#t=5m58s

 

 

 

 

Wim Hoff Tummo (inner fire) Meditation Master

 

Discovery Channel Documentary

 

madoDvtKEes

 

Breaking Another World Record

 

jfCsSDiPZxk

 

 

More info on Tummo Meditation

 

History Channel Documentary

 

R-wuOYlxMSY

 

http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/04.18/09-tummo.html

Edited June 8, 2009 by More_Pie_Guy

[exorcist_1699]

If there exists a medical system , the Chinese TCM, totally different from the Western one, and it claims its capability of curing not only most of human diseases , but animals', based on a theory of qi, then of course there is /will exist a " Chinese " biology different from the Western one .

 

Fir example ,in order to cure a cow's , or an octopus's disease , which of course has a system of meridians different from the human body's, an acupuncturist has to understand how qi distributes in these creatures so as to find out which acupuncture points corresponding to curing what disease. Besides , the way qi runs in a plant or in an amoeba definitely is different from how it runs in an animal . A jellyfish lives in deep sea will "feel" qi running in its body different from us .

 

Another area is about reproduction ; qi is said to be closely related to the rise of jing ; we know that many animals and plant's reproductive activities are related to the full moon .In TCM , we already have a complicated and detailed theory about the effect of Moon's movement on the rise and fall of jing and qi, which can be applied to explanating many animals' reproductive activities..

 

Even "new" features like those being studied in the Holographic biology , are already mentioned in the Huangdi Neijin (黃帝內經) ...a book written 2,000 years ago; you can find many , many examples to think about...

Edited June 8, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[evZENy]

I am a scientist so had a similar question, especially since I started learning Zen Shiatsu and TCM.

Lots of research in recent years on the "pathways" for Chi.

I don't believe Chi itself will be easy to capture in scientifi terms.

 

http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=chi+me...amp;oi=scholart

[Trixter Streetcat]

definitely "electromagnetic", however limited our current understanding of that phenomenon.

 

A midwife friend who got into energetic healing after long scientific study once explained to me that the aura or energetic field (probably what "chi" is made of) was "the electromagnetic field released by the chemical reactions in your body". makes sense.

 

breathing and other related practices are probably catalysts for those chemical reactions, hence why they can enhance energy fields that can eventually be manipulated.

 

also, i believe the human body is a magnet. that might also influence "chi" manipulation.

 

definitely "electromagnetic", however limited our current understanding of that phenomenon.

 

A midwife friend who got into energetic healing after long scientific study once explained to me that the aura or energetic field (probably what "chi" is made of) was "the electromagnetic field released by the chemical reactions in your body". makes sense.

 

breathing and other related practices are probably catalysts for those chemical reactions, hence why they can enhance energy fields that can eventually be manipulated.

 

also, i believe the human body is a magnet. that might also influence "chi" manipulation.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Trixter Streetcat

[nac]

This would fall into Randi's definition of "supernatural" and be a valid claim for the prize.

[Thunder_Gooch]

This would fall into Randi's definition of "supernatural" and be a valid claim for the prize.

 

If you can explain a phenomenon scientifically, then it isn't supernatural. I don't care who's definition we are using, its common sense.

[nac]

If you can explain a phenomenon scientifically, then it isn't supernatural. I don't care who's definition we are using, its common sense.

You get a million dollars if it's "supernatural" according to Randi's definition, and it is.

[dwai]

Please share your idea of how chi and science work together? I know that science supports the exercise and meditation, two main components of internal martial arts and some qigong. I am not wasting too much time on the topic, but just curious as to how you see these two models intertwined. Chi and the biology of the body and mind, what is their relationship?

 

Chi is an aspect of human physiology that has not been tapped into by Western Science.

Biology as we know it today is the Western framework of studying physiology and lifeforms.

 

The frameworks are different if we consider traditional systems such as TCM and Ayurveda. It is not that one is better than the other, but it just happens to be that they use different rules of categorization and thus come up with different outcomes (there are overlaps however).

 

TCM and Ayurveda talk about a "life-force", an energy that is called Chi, Prana, Ki. They have discovered ways of studying it's effects and the results of modifying/controlling it's flow. Mind-body disciplines such as Yoga and Tai Chi etc help individuals sensitize themselves and eventually manipulate Chi in their system. There is sufficient empirical evidence available to validate it's veracity and the fact that both these ancient systems of healing work precisely because they are based on these principles.

 

One might be tempted to dismiss TCM and Ayurveda as "primitive" and "proto-scientific", but that would be short-sighted. That's because they simply seem that way when viewed from the de facto standard categorical framework of today, ie Western Medicine and Western Science. Similarly, Western Science and Western Medicine might seem primitive and bumbling attempts at explaining nature or healing patients by serious practitioners of TCM or Ayurveda (there might be some veracity to that perspective).

 

Western Medicine/Science is developed on the premise that there is a distinction between Mind and Body (the Cartesian divide). However, in TCM, Ayurveda (I will call them Traditional Sciences or TS from this juncture for brevity) there is no demarcation. According to the TS, mind and body are a continuum (what affects the mind will affect the body and vice versa).

 

Chi naturally animates the body and mind. It is the basic building block of life. An organism (or an entity) cannot be called alive unless it has Chi. Chi is also inextricably linked with Consciousness. Both Indic and Chinese Traditional knowledge systems cover the nuances of Chi, Consciousness and their inter-relationship with all beings in great detail.

 

I guess what I'm trying to get to here is that unless Western Science has a paradigm shift in it's hypotheses about the mechanics of Nature, it will not be able to understand Chi. There needs to be an adjustment in the framework.

[Thunder_Gooch]

You get a million dollars if it's "supernatural" according to Randi's definition, and it is.

 

Yeah you also get millions of people hounding you each day to teach them parlor tricks, and government labs wanting to dissect your brain. Is that worth a million bucks? I'd have to answer no, if you had abilities like Chang et all you could use them more discreetly to acquire wealth if that was what you desired.

[Pranaman]

If I was Randi, I'd do what I could to not lose a million dollars.

[Sunya]

i've heard that Randi's proposal is BS. a lot of fine print.

 

but i'd love to, if I had some crazy super powers, to show up there levitating like Magneto and show them a thing or two. win the money and donate it to charity. zealous atheists really annoy me, i've been to the Randi forums and its really sad how arrogant and closed minded those people are.

Edited June 10, 2009 by mikaelz

[goldisheavy]

Yeah you also get millions of people hounding you each day to teach them parlor tricks, and government labs wanting to dissect your brain. Is that worth a million bucks? I'd have to answer no, if you had abilities like Chang et all you could use them more discreetly to acquire wealth if that was what you desired.

 

 

Exactly. Why would anyone want to prove themselves to Randi? Is Randi like the father figure that you have to prove yourself to?

 

If Randi's message is to have a questioning mind and to not take various claims for granted, that's all fine and dandy. But when he makes a big circus out of it, and when he doesn't even want to play fairly in many of his dealings, that's another bowl of soup altogether.

 

Please share your idea of how chi and science work together? I know that science supports the exercise and meditation, two main components of internal martial arts and some qigong. I am not wasting too much time on the topic, but just curious as to how you see these two models intertwined. Chi and the biology of the body and mind, what is their relationship?

 

Western scientists don't want to admit it, but Western science tacitly relies on certain metaphysical assumptions about reality. Chi relies on slightly different metaphysical assumptions than the Western science. Western science was born from the Western alchemy and Western natural philosophy. In other words, science is basically a very successful and sophisticated mumbo jumbo master bating kind of thing that we all love here at Tao Bums.

 

Of course no one will want to admit that! The fact is that science relies on maths at every turn, and yet maths is a purely idealized mental discipline, a purely humanly-conceptual discipline, purely a product of imagination, axiomatic (based on assumptions that we agree not to dispute), etc. Maths is not subject to anything in the real world. For example, if you could somehow take two apples and make them into one, 1+1 would still be 2 in maths. Maths is its own world (that's what it means to say it is "purely idealized").

 

Current science's metaphysics is in conflict with many other systems of thought out there in the world. I think science has achieved some important breakthroughs but also science has screwed us over and held back our development as sentient beings too. It's been a mixed bag. And Chi is another mixed bag, a different kind of mix in a different bag.

 

Trying to conceptualize Chi as electricity is nonsense. Chi should be understood on its own terms as explained by ancient philosophers. However, that doesn't mean that the West cannot develop different, its own version of Chi, that has some striking similarities to the Chinese version and at the same time takes on many Westernized metaphysical concepts too.

Edited June 10, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Ramon25]

Exactly. Why would anyone want to prove themselves to Randi? Is Randi like the father figure that you have to prove yourself to?

 

If Randi's message is to have a questioning mind and to not take various claims for granted, that's all fine and dandy. But when he makes a big circus out of it, and when he doesn't even want to play fairly in many of his dealings, that's another bowl of soup altogether.

Western scientists don't want to admit it, but Western science tacitly relies on certain metaphysical assumptions about reality. Chi relies on slightly different metaphysical assumptions than the Western science. Western science was born from the Western alchemy and Western natural philosophy. In other words, science is basically a very successful and sophisticated mumbo jumbo master bating kind of thing that we all love here at Tao Bums.

 

Of course no one will want to admit that! The fact is that science relies on maths at every turn, and yet maths is a purely idealized mental discipline, a purely humanly-conceptual discipline, purely a product of imagination, axiomatic (based on assumptions that we agree not to dispute), etc. Maths is not subject to anything in the real world. For example, if you could somehow take two apples and make them into one, 1+1 would still be 2 in maths. Maths is its own world (that's what it means to say it is "purely idealized").

 

Current science's metaphysics is in conflict with many other systems of thought out there in the world. I think science has achieved some important breakthroughs but also science has screwed us over and held back our development as sentient beings too. It's been a mixed bag. And Chi is another mixed bag, a different kind of mix in a different bag.

 

Trying to conceptualize Chi as electricity is nonsense. Chi should be understood on its own terms as explained by ancient philosophers. However, that doesn't mean that the West cannot develop different, its own version of Chi, that has some striking similarities to the Chinese version and at the same time takes on many Westernized metaphysical concepts too.

 

Good post! Except the part of math notbeing part of the natural world. Ever heard of sacred geometry?

[nac]

If I was Randi, I'd do what I could to not lose a million dollars.

Third party labs. Randi never gets directly involved in the process. (or claims not to) In fact, Randi has compiled an exhaustive list of excuses given by mystics for not taking the challenge or when they were unable to reproduce their claims in lab conditions. I think this is the one: http://www.skepticreport.com/skepticism/topjref.htm

 

If these masters can do what they claim, they should at least try to win this prize since a large body of skeptics are being held back from self-cultivation by this seemingly open challenge. Afterwards, they can surely donate the money to charity and fade back into obscurity if they wished. If the challenge is really a facade (although what motive would that serve, I wonder?) then they could get some proof and show it to the world through the net.

 

Exactly. Why would anyone want to prove themselves to Randi? Is Randi like the father figure that you have to prove yourself to?

Why not? It could be more about helping the progress of science and humanity which is being repressed by the likes of Randi. If Randi's theories are incorrect, wouldn't it be best for everyone concerned to expose him? The Randi Foundation has commanded a great deal of trust and respect since his exposure of faith healers such as Peter Popoff.

 

Chi is an aspect of human physiology that has not been tapped into by Western Science.

Biology as we know it today is the Western framework of studying physiology and lifeforms.

 

...

For instance, this stuff is one of the biggest reasons I don't call myself a Taoist or any other kind of mystic. If anybody at all successfully claimed this prize or exposed Randi's insincerity in a credible way, my doubts on the matter would be resolved.

Edited June 10, 2009 by nac

[erdweir]

There is this book called the Field where the author describes a scientists work. The scientist (sorry cant remember the name) discovers that carcinogens have the surprising property of blocking a certain wave length of light. so he guesses that the body is emitting photons to control chemical processes and all of his peers turn on him and tell him it's impossible that the interior of the body would emit light. Years later someone invents a machine that can actually measure the body's light emissions and what do you know, they are of the same wavelength blocked by carcinogens. So the scientist says that the body is actually regulated by these photon emissions, blah blah

 

but what are photons? photons are just convenient mathematical models that describe some observed phenomena rather well and others rather poorly, which is why sometimes a physicist finds it more convenient to describe light as a wave or ray instead of a particle. light is neither a ray, particle or wave, those things are just inventions of empirical science.

 

Western science heretics like Mesmer or Reich have been working with chi for centuries. the descriptions of Mesmer's treatments sounds allot like John Changs's accupuncture treatments in certain specific ways. Mesmer used more "mechanical" means like baths with iron grounding rods in them and so forth but when he would touch his patients with his metal rods they would flop around like Chang's patents did. It's hard to say if Mesmer was emitting Chi in the way a Chi Kung master would or if he was only using these devices to get his results, but he had to be using his wand to make the movements in his patients occur. Reich also did allot of experiments with what he called the Orgone, his word for chi. His cloudbusting machines have some similarities to Mesmer's animal magnetism baths, with the metal rods in the water and such, but the devices were very different. Reich also focused his therapy on freeing the chroninc tensions and energy blockages in the body through breathing and muscular exercises. His methodology is crude in some ways compared to eastern systems of yoga, but you got to hand it to someone who went straight from Freud's inner circle to invent his own form of wester yoga.

 

Reich ended up seeing matter as a kind of condensed orgone, a crystalized form of energy. His model was never examined properly because the FDA put him in jail and destroyed all of his work. I think he over reached but was on the right track.

 

I agree with Gold that western science has allot of metaphysical assumptions hidden in it, and so does TCM, although TCM is perhaps more honest about it's assumptions. Western science tends to insist that its myopic nihilism is the only thing that can ensure objectivity. Instead what it insures is that certain results are to be favored. much of this is cultural as well, and not solely metaphysical, and there are some people on the other side of these prejudicial walls or else none of the studies cited int he posts above would have happened.

 

People forget that we create concepts like matter, energy, and mind, and we can free ourselves from them as well. Concepts have their uses but they are all to often worshipped superficially by people who lack sophistication. Many of our most famous scientists are totally dogmatic and cant see past their own myopic viewpoints. Concepts like matter and energy have their uses, but they need to me seen for what they are, categories used for trying to stuff eternity into shoeboxes. Chi suffers from the same limitations as a concept.

 

I wonder what will happen after a few decades or centuries more of studying chi with western science, maybe people will come up with a different way of looking at all of this stuff. Western physicists have already been arguing about whether to get rid of concepts like matter and space and replace them with the concept of the field. It can take a long time for sciences like medicine or biology to catch up with the cutting edge of quantum physics, but you can see that the thinking is allot less rigid than in it was 20 years ago. There are allot of possibilities we cant see yet.

Edited June 10, 2009 by erdweir

[Pranaman]

There is this book called the Field where the author describes a scientists work. The scientist (sorry cant remember the name) discovers that carcinogens have the surprising property of blocking a certain wave length of light. so he guesses that the body is emitting photons to control chemical processes and all of his peers turn on him and tell him it's impossible that the interior of the body would emit light. Years later someone invents a machine that can actually measure the body's light emissions and what do you know, they are of the same wavelength blocked by carcinogens. So the scientist says that the body is actually regulated by these photon emissions, blah blah

 

good call.

 

Also in "The Biology Of Belief", Doctor Bruce Lipton published his tests (and other people's tests) that show that one of the Epigenetic factors of gene expression, as in, one of the things that control genes, which there for control everything else in the body, is in fact an energetic signal received on receptors scattered across the cell membranes of the body.

 

I talks about constructive and destructive interference and how this affects the atom's vibration (the unique wave caused by the placement and dynamic of positive and negative charges of the atom + the spin rate of it). For instance, sending a specifically calculated frequency to an atom that has a particular frequency. Would neutralize on contact and cause atoms to stop moving. Scientists actually do this now days.

 

Then he talks about body chemistry, and chemicals of the mind being dispersed through out the body creating a mind-body.

 

Good book, I'll post a more organized summary later. He also cites all of the research he uses, including his own as a PhD of Biology.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Pranaman

[goldisheavy]

Why not? It could be more about helping the progress of science and humanity which is being repressed by the likes of Randi.

 

Helping science and helping humanity may not be the same goal. Western science as it currently stands in the West has played a big role in dehumanization of human beings. Just look at how the Western doctors often operate. Look at how Western psychology approaches a person with a problem. The list goes on. People are treated as robots, given no kindness, no love, etc. That's because science wants to see everything as either an inanimate object or as a complicated interworking of inanimate objects. There is no room for mystery and for vagueness in science, and both mystery and vagueness are essentially human traits and are essential parts of the human experience. It is sciences goal to utterly obliterate mystery. To be alive means to be mysterious. Only inanimate objects or non-living entities operate under strong constraints that are well liked by the Western science. When you move into domains where there are fewer constraints and fewer laws and more exceptions, scientists begin to get angry, aggressive, and hopeless, and they keep promising us that very soon they will demolish all mystery and come up with a formula for everything without exception. That's a very negative feature of science.

 

If you understand fallibility and mystery as fundamental features of cognition, then you understand that to attempt to eliminate them is madness and cannot lead to a healthy (for the individual and for society) outcome.

 

If Randi's theories are incorrect, wouldn't it be best for everyone concerned to expose him?

 

It would. But are you assuming that people who can disprove Randi are selfless? You know those people who could do it are selfish too, just like you. They want to have good life. They won't want to be bothered. Or worse, perhaps they want to take advantage of their abilities and going to Randi might expose them and make taking advantage of their abilities difficult or impossible. So for example, if people knew I could make money with my mind, they'd probably put me under 24/7 surveillance to make sure I never used that skill, especially if that skill is real and not a fraud.

 

Furthermore, if we examine how the spiritual abilities work, we should understand that Randi will never find them. If those abilities work due to various beliefs and due to the empty nature of phenomena, then Randi's beliefs work just as well and have just as much gravity as the beliefs of a mystic. So Randi's beliefs will cancel out the beliefs of the mystic and from Randi's point of view, nothing mysterious will happen, simply because that's what Randi wants at a deep level. After all, he doesn't want to lose his money, does he? He offers that big prize because he is damn certain no one can take it. He is supremely confident. He has stated many times that he believes all mystics are frauds, etc. We know where Randi stands. So Randi's beliefs are just as effective and just as operative as the ones of the mystic, if our theory that beliefs affect reality is true.

 

The Randi Foundation has commanded a great deal of trust and respect since his exposure of faith healers such as Peter Popoff.

For instance, this stuff is one of the biggest reasons I don't call myself a Taoist or any other kind of mystic. If anybody at all successfully claimed this prize or exposed Randi's insincerity in a credible way, my doubts on the matter would be resolved.

 

Not exactly. Randi has a tiny group of supporters. He doesn't command anything. You choose to respect him. Randi cannot command you to respect him. You can withdraw your respect from Randi at any time.

Edited June 11, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Sunya]

There is no room for mystery and for vagueness in science, and both mystery and vagueness are essentially human traits and are essential parts of the human experience. It is sciences goal to utterly obliterate mystery. To be alive means to be mysterious.

 

isn't the reason why we're all on the spiritual path is to obliterate mystery? don't we all want omniscience? I think science and spirituality are on the same path, science just has some wrong assumptions that need to be corrected, but science isn't a permanent entity, it doesn't exist as a thing. people's minds will change eventually.

 

If you understand fallibility and mystery as fundamental features of cognition, then you understand that to attempt to eliminate them is madness and cannot lead to a healthy (for the individual and for society) outcome.

It would.

 

I don't agree with this. mystery is a facet of ignorance. and it is in our nature to eliminate that ignorance, to strive for perfection and knowing. these are worthy traits.

 

 

Furthermore, if we examine how the spiritual abilities work, we should understand that Randi will never find them.

 

that is very true I think. not everyone has the karma to experience such thing. if the causes and conditions aren't there, then the person will not see anything. just like a blind person will not see an elephant right in-front of him

Edited June 11, 2009 by mikaelz

[goldisheavy]

isn't the reason why we're all on the spiritual path is to obliterate mystery? don't we all want omniscience?

 

It seems you don't remember what omniscience is like. I do. Omniscience is not an elimination of mystery. But don't take my word for it.

 

Conceptually speaking, omniscience is knowing what is to be known. Think long and hard about the meaning of this. Many things we know are not to be known and many things we don't know are to be known. What is and is not to be known is not up to me, it's up to you. But the known doesn't enter into an extreme, and the unknown also does not enter into an extreme. Omniscience is beyond the extremes. If you are a good Buddhist, you should understand this. Thus omniscience is not the extreme elimination of anything.

[Tokoyo Tama]

I believe you're referring to Fritz-Albert Popp from the field. He had a pleasant run in with Randi, btw... as does everyone who runs into the chi master Randi. I've seen a lot of discussions of Randi and the show he puts on, always proves a mostly divisive topic from my experience, so I'll just say that I personally don't particularly appreciate the cynicism that he represents and hope such views are replaced by genuinely open minded skepticism.

 

 

On the original post on chi and biology, I've been highly intrigued by the bong han duct theory. Not widely known from what I can tell, based upon research on prisoners in communist Korea decades ago. Injected radiation into the meridian points and found they travelled down the meridians significantly more than it did into the surrounding area due to diffusion. These studies aren't being replicated per se (thankfully), but the Seoul National University (dept of physics and astronomy it seems) has been conducting what they deem to be successful studies on the matter. If you have access to the right peer review journals they can be downloaded, the main issue is I am unaware of any responses, though I haven't checked much or recently. There at least used to be a part of the SNU website that listed all their published papers, though I can't find it atm. In rabbits I believe the size of one such tubule was thought to be 1 micron, and images have been taken of the tubules inflated to 10 microns so as to be visible to the instrument. I don't know much about medicine, so I have no way of knowing that it's not just some tendon or whatever.

 

 

 

Another notable western science style researcher into the meridians is Becker. A bit controversial, did much pioneering research into the non-thermal effects of Electromagnetic Fields (EMFs) on living systems. Was hired by the military who, according to him, had seen proof of the efficacy of acu-pressure or puncture (forget which) in mitigating pain. His studies showed a significant correlation between many meridian points and electro-something readings as compared to the surrounding area. This is from the book 'Body Electric', don't know what journals it was published in.

 

If the bong han duct theory holds, and there is a physical component to the meridian system, it would certainly be a fascinating alteration of the chi system theory. I am convinced that there is an electromagnetic or similar component to the system, though wonder whether this is a lesser or greater percent/portion of the system. I personally consider it feasible that there is an entirely non physical (ie outside of the standard model/4 dimensional realm of physics) component to the meridian system. Presumably this aspect would function more as the guiding aspect for other less discreet parts. Haven't spent much time looking into the meridian systems in detail, so this is on a pretty big limb, based on some personal suspicions that I don't presume all others to share (such as the standard model of physics to be significantly incomplete)

[Pranaman]

that Bong Han Duct video was pretty sweet, hopefully they go somewhere with that.