How do you see chi and biology?

[nac]

Helping science and helping humanity may not be the same goal. Western science as it currently stands in the West has played a big role in dehumanization of human beings. Just look at how the Western doctors often operate. Look at how Western psychology approaches a person with a problem. The list goes on. People are treated as robots, given no kindness, no love, etc. That's because science wants to see everything as either an inanimate object or as a complicated interworking of inanimate objects. There is no room for mystery and for vagueness in science, and both mystery and vagueness are essentially human traits and are essential parts of the human experience. It is sciences goal to utterly obliterate mystery. To be alive means to be mysterious. Only inanimate objects or non-living entities operate under strong constraints that are well liked by the Western science. When you move into domains where there are fewer constraints and fewer laws and more exceptions, scientists begin to get angry, aggressive, and hopeless, and they keep promising us that very soon they will demolish all mystery and come up with a formula for everything without exception. That's a very negative feature of science.

Evil science, eh? Okay.

 

It would. But are you assuming that people who can disprove Randi are selfless?

Nope. All I wanted was a single act of selflessness, but I guess that was too much to ask for huh?

 

If you understand fallibility and mystery as fundamental features of cognition, then you understand that to attempt to eliminate them is madness and cannot lead to a healthy (for the individual and for society) outcome. You know those people who could do it are selfish too, just like you. They want to have good life. They won't want to be bothered. Or worse, perhaps they want to take advantage of their abilities and going to Randi might expose them and make taking advantage of their abilities difficult or impossible. So for example, if people knew I could make money with my mind, they'd probably put me under 24/7 surveillance to make sure I never used that skill, especially if that skill is real and not a fraud.

 

Furthermore, if we examine how the spiritual abilities work, we should understand that Randi will never find them. If those abilities work due to various beliefs and due to the empty nature of phenomena, then Randi's beliefs work just as well and have just as much gravity as the beliefs of a mystic. So Randi's beliefs will cancel out the beliefs of the mystic and from Randi's point of view, nothing mysterious will happen, simply because that's what Randi wants at a deep level. After all, he doesn't want to lose his money, does he? He offers that big prize because he is damn certain no one can take it. He is supremely confident. He has stated many times that he believes all mystics are frauds, etc. We know where Randi stands. So Randi's beliefs are just as effective and just as operative as the ones of the mystic, if our theory that beliefs affect reality is true.

Not exactly. Randi has a tiny group of supporters. He doesn't command anything. You choose to respect him. Randi cannot command you to respect him. You can withdraw your respect from Randi at any time.

Okay, okay. I get it. I wasn't referring to the small band of disciples you see encircling Randi's foundation though.

 

Thanks for the response. _/\_

[11:33]

I don't agree with this. mystery is a facet of ignorance. and it is in our nature to eliminate that ignorance, to strive for perfection and knowing. these are worthy traits. m

 

The problem is that life is infinite. It will never be fully known. And, since all things are inter-dependent that means we can never be sure we are fully correct because there are always infinite inter-dependent dependencies connected to everything.

 

So denying the mystery is in effect denying reality. Denying reality never leads to good results.

Edited June 12, 2009 by 11:33

[Pranaman]

Evil science, eh? Okay.

 

People with 100% faith in doctors die of cancer all of the time. At the same time, people in alternative therapies are being cured of cancer all of the time. The majority of doctors, based on science, don't condone alternative therapies. Is this a pure and good institution?

Edited June 13, 2009 by Pranaman

[11:33]

It isn't the scientific method's fault. It is the human factor that messes things up. It's the agendas, the dramas, etc, the various bullshit that makes it so we aren't doing research to know what we can to make the world better. We're doing research to know what makes more money. And that is a huge rift, and you can see the result of that kind of thinking all around you everywhere you go everyday at least you can here in the US.

 

Things are studied based on money that can be made. This is the #1 problem. It comes down to the motivating factor, because the motivating factor dictates the end result.

[Tokoyo Tama]

The scientific method is mostly good for helping to consistently move forward in spite of appealing or glamourous charlatans. This does not mean that it gets from point A to point B the fastest, it's probably the slowest method, just contains few errors of including false material. There seems to be a general rule that art precedes science, because it is not trying to be entirely correct while still holding enough truth to harmonize with us. Eventually science tends to catch on, but as with any bottom up approach, it takes a while, and it can be very frustrating to watch it lumber along (in certain broader aspects) when the truth is so glaringly obvious. An amusing example I was reminded of in the current edition of New Scientist is female ejaculation, something science is only beginning to broadly accept, and as recently as the 80s was widely regarded as made up... We can dissect things into little pieces, but when there is a harmonious convergence between processes science is a bit more likely to lose its bearings.

[nac]

People with 100% faith in doctors die of cancer all of the time. At the same time, people in alternative therapies are being cured of cancer all of the time. The majority of doctors, based on science, don't condone alternative therapies. Is this a pure and good institution?

Statistics, please. Every study ever done suggests otherwise. There's always an equal percentage of "miraculous cures" on either side. I've even seen testimonials of people who turned to spirituality because of such a cure: http://www.koyasanbetsuin.org/koyasan_asahi.htm

 

Personally, I still think it's BS. Of course, I always keep listening to both sides of the argument with an open mind.

Edited June 13, 2009 by nac

[Pranaman]

Statistics, please. Every study ever done suggests otherwise. There's always an equal percentage of "miraculous cures" on either side. I've even seen testimonials of people who turned to spirituality because of such a cure: http://www.koyasanbetsuin.org/koyasan_asahi.htm

 

Personally, I still think it's BS. Of course, I always keep listening to both sides of the argument with an open mind.

 

I don't know if you misread what I wrote or not, but "all of the time" was used in the connotative and common American's use of the term.

 

and yes, both sides have success stories. But my thing is, why do there have to be sides? Why can't doctors say,"hey, there isn't much research on Oxygen3 treatment, but it's shown to help people you should check it out and see if it's for you." There is no risk in doing so, and either being simply ill-informed, or withholding information from people who are about to die is not my idea of a genuinely good, down to earth, and thorough medical institution.

 

From what I can see, a good example of a thorough institution is Oasis, they do integrated (alternative/conventional) therapy:

 

Oasis stats vs. Convential (via NCI)

 

I believe that 11:33 is right. Tokoyo Tama, I believe the scientific method is used to verify a hypothesis. Which is probably why it is as slow as you say. By these terms in it's very nature it is not designed to help us move forward but designed to document what is tried and may be true. To use your example, it's a f#cking joke that we had to call in scientists to document that female ejaculation is true, when it has been tried so many times before.

Edited June 13, 2009 by Pranaman

[11:33]

And then the question is "WHY ISN'T THERE MUCH RESEARCH ON OXYGEN3 TREATMENT?"

 

Because this world is full of people who care about money #1, and #2 their egos. It's a bit bitter but basically true.

 

Things aren't researched "to find out what we need to know to make the world better". They could do research of that nature for very cheap if that was their aim. Instead they spend millions on very specific drugs, because then they can SELL them. They are so wrapped up in the business, they forget the whole point of making life better for everyone.

 

I am NOT saying alternative therapies are best. What I am saying is that the motives behind everything is causing a lop-sided research balance, and well frankly it sickens my inner-morals.

 

It's creating a world full of extremely expensive stuff that usually isn't even the best treatment. Follow the logic, and you see that must be the result.

 

EDIT: As long as money is the primary intent of the world, the world will be screwed [i'd actually prefer a stronger word here, but it would be censored out]. The primary intent of the world needs to change to "what makes the most people have more happy, healthy, fulfilling lives", then we'll see something special. Unfortunately it isn't going to happen in my lifetime. Humans are too stupid to realize this. I'll just find somewhere cozy with my lady and relax in my own out of the way cove peacefully rocking away my life, and caring about other people, thinking of others as my brothers, doing what is best for others not what gives me money. Ahhhh...

Edited June 13, 2009 by 11:33

[nac]

There have been many studies on alternative medicine. None of them have provided confirmatory evidence for anything more than a placebo effect. (for serious ailments i mean)

[11:33]

many studies on alternative medicine

Alternative medicine isn't a thing. It's a huge, general purpose, meaningless phrase.

 

How many non-alternative medicine methods are all that effective for serious ailments?

[nac]

Alternative medicine isn't a thing.

I never said it was. There have been several independent studies of Homeopathy, TCM, Ayurveda, Reiki, faith healing, etc. Each and every major alternative medical tradition has been scientifically tested, and none of them have statistically confirmatory results. What does that tell you?

 

How many non-alternative medicine methods are all that effective for serious ailments?

Those are the only ones which have shown measurable non-placebo effects so far.

[11:33]

What does that tell you?

That you're on a Taoist forum and don't believe in anything Taoist?

 

 

 

 

I am NOT saying alternative therapies are best.

 

nac,

 

Perhaps you have trouble reading?

[nac]

That you're on a Taoist forum and don't believe in anything Taoist?

I like Taoist philosophy and I'm interested in Taoism. I don't think Taoism and TCM are that strongly coupled.

 

nac,

 

Perhaps you have trouble reading?

Fine, I'm just pointing out there's no evidence whatsoever of superhuman powers. That's it. Maybe it's a secret we don't know about yet.

[11:33]

Those [non-alternative methods] are the only ones which have shown measurable non-placebo effects so far.r.

This isn't true. Many herbs have been found effective. And I don't know the source of the studie but I've at least read abotu supposed studies on energy healing that did show effect. Maybe they were bogus studies. Who care, that was never my point!

 

I like Taoist philosophy and I'm interested in Taoism. I don't think Taoism and TCM are that strongly coupled.

Taoists created TCM. TCM is basically Taoist medicine. From what I understand, at least.

 

Fine, I'm just pointing out there's no evidence whatsoever of superhuman powers. That's it. Maybe it's a secret we don't know about yet.

 

Superhuman powers? I thought we were talking about non-allopathic medicine?

 

I've had my own fair share of mystical bullshit happen to me. No need to prove anyone. I had to figure out if I was delusional or not, and have concluded I'm not delusional. No way I can or feel any need to convince you of it though.

[nac]

This isn't true. Many herbs have been found effective. And I don't know the source of the studie but I've at least read abotu supposed studies on energy healing that did show effect. Maybe they were bogus studies. Who care, that was never my point!

Mine neither! I'm sorry if I gave offence.

 

I'm not talking about herbs. I know many of them are useful. I was talking about heart and liver disease, cancer, etc. Some cancer can be operated out of the system, but there's no evidence of any alternative medical tradition being able to cure any form of cancer. Anyway, that's beside the point. I'm sorry for bickering. I'll read your posts again when I'm less sleepy.

 

Taoists created TCM. TCM is basically Taoist medicine. From what I understand, at least.

So they're interdependent in your opinion?

 

Superhuman powers? I thought we were talking about non-allopathic medicine?

Yup, creating electromagnetic fields with your bare hands. That's how all this got started, believe it or not!

 

I've had my own fair share of mystical bullshit happen to me. No need to prove anyone. I had to figure out if I was delusional or not, and have concluded I'm not delusional. No way I can or feel any need to convince you of it though.

Fair enough.

Edited June 13, 2009 by nac

[11:33]

Mine neither! I'm sorry if I gave offence.

 

I'm not talking about herbs. I know many of them are useful. I was talking about heart and liver disease, cancer, etc. Some cancer can be operated out of the system, but there's no evidence of any alternative medical tradition being able to cure any form of cancer. Anyway, that's beside the point. I'm sorry for bickering. I'll read your posts again when I'm less sleepy.

 

In my opinion all of those diseases are extreme states of un-health. Many traditional "alternative" practices aim to not have those extreme states of ill health occur in the first place. So, right off the bat the entire paradigm is different. It's silly to even assume that you can spend a lifetime screwing yourself up, and then voila! magic doctor man makes it all perfectly fine and healthy with his syringe of magic serum. That is just rearranging the chairs on the Titanic.

 

Tis best to take care of yourself, and prolong the health you have.

Edited June 13, 2009 by 11:33

[nac]

Tis best to take care of yourself, and prolong the health you have.

Sagely advice. Take care!

 

PS. You may have missed a few more replies I've edited into the last post.

Edited June 13, 2009 by nac

[Pranaman]

Acupuncture research:

 

Acupuncture Research on Dopamine Pathway

Edited June 13, 2009 by Pranaman

[nac]

Acupuncture research:

 

Acupuncture Research on Dopamine Pathway

Watch out for bogus studies. But don't listen to me, compare the quality of research yourself.

 

11:33: I've taken the time to reread your posts and I mostly agree with your stance, except for one technicality which is still confusing me: What does rationality mean to you? Surely as a Taoist, you realize that a system of thought can be logical, rational, internally consistent and even seemingly reasonable, yet nonetheless fundamentally flawed, misguided and ineffective. As a matter of fact, it's the person who falls for the rhetoric of such systems that we often call "not mad, but misguided". Take Marxism for example. It has a rigorously fleshed out philosophy behind it, justifying it's beliefs and practices. In my humble opinion, only direct evidence (ie. exhaustive study & reproducible experimentation) can give the final confirmation regarding the effectiveness of a science or philosophy. Unlike many, I don't pretend that this opinion comes from pure reason, whatever that means. I openly acknowledge that it's ultimately based upon intuition. Hence I disagree with Randi's methods, which look like bullying to me although I have no reason to doubt his sincerity. I disagree with your beliefs too, but everyone is of course entitled to form their own opinion. Just try to avoid creating a blind spot for yourself. That's very dangerous as it leads to self-reinforcing confirmation bias.

 

This was an off-topic rant, wasn't it?

Edited June 14, 2009 by nac

[Pranaman]

my teacher found a different study that also shows an effect on dopamine from acupuncture. I understand still not believing in acupuncture... but as far as research goes apparently China is where you'll find it.

 

My heart just tells me to explore it more, but discard what I find useless for me. So far so good, TCM has helped me with no side-effects. My mind and attention is improving drastically, and I didn't have to take amphetamine for 8 years. Learning to focus my mind has proven to be useful.

[11:33]

I have heard that studies have shown that acupuncture works, BUT that acupuncture done totally wrong also worked equally well. Interesting :|

[Ramon25]

I have heard that studies have shown that acupuncture works, BUT that acupuncture done totally wrong also worked equally well. Interesting :|

 

 

That does not matter as the placebo effect might have worked whne the acupuncture was done wrong and the actual meridians did the job when done right. Also altough the medical establishment does not want to admit it placebo studies have been done on everything from conevntioal therapies to actual surgery! And guess what even people recieving fake surgey did just aswell as those who got the real one. So what does that say about surgery or acupuncture? When you understand quantam physics it all makes sense and wanting everthing to be objective like "nac" is futile as we live In a subjective universe. As many many ancient spirtual traditions have pointed to. Its hard to except that we create our world and what is real and what is not. Chinsese medicine and ayurvda have been working for thousands of years, Do you need more proof?

[erdweir]

And guess what even people recieving fake surgey did just aswell as those who got the real one. So what does that say about surgery or acupuncture? When you understand quantam physics it all makes sense and wanting everthing to be objective like "nac" is futile as we live In a subjective universe. As many many ancient spirtual traditions have pointed to. Its hard to except that we create our world and what is real and what is not. Chinsese medicine and ayurvda have been working for thousands of years, Do you need more proof?

 

The whole subjective/objective thing is just some dialectical stage you go through IMHO. Hopefully we will eventually get beyond it in our personal viewpoints and our life sciences. Right now if I get my arm ripped off in a car accident, give me a western doctor, if i get arthritis, bring on the TCM and Chi Kung. See what I am getting at? both traditions have their strengths. The allopathic model has some problems, i am not a big fan of it for allot of things, but hey man, you gotta admit esoteric systems didn't discover microbes, and microbes are important. Traditional medicines and cultures have allot of flaws too, like slavery, foot-binding, disease, etc. Taoism has never been able to really change the miserable conditions of most of the chinese people. In modern western culture we are beset with a different but overlapping set of issues. the west has done a huge amount of damage to the world, but also allot of work to reveal the truths of it and has raised many veils of ignorance. unfortunately it's paradigm is often too restrictive to interpret all of the results of it's own science, and it's wars and greed are as unsurpassed as it's finer achievements. but many western scientists have done serious work on bio-electrical fields, and Chi Kung practitioners in China have shown interest in testing their powers with the insturments of western science. intercultural diffusion is good for us all. I for one wold like to leave all of this east vs. west debate behind. I think we are looking at a amazing possibility, the chance to make a true fusion of the esoteric and empirical sciences. This east vs. west thing is another false dichotomy IMHO, just like subjective/objective.

 

And 11:33, take note that this means I am not a taoist in the strict sense either, but I think it's philosophy and practices are important to the world and contain allot of truths. .

[DaoChild]

I'm very interested in this topic - but it has taken a serious detour, .

 

Where do you guys think Qi fits into biology? Is it a physical phenomenon (E.g. electromagnetic energy), or is it something else?

 

There is a lot of stuff on both sides of the table, regarding alternative medicines. Unfortunately, the problem is that there is much too much "anecdotal" evidence for their effectiveness in treating cancers, arthritis, etc. Many studies on alternative medicines have been disproved, some have been proved -- but there will always be "those stories" you hear.

 

I tell you this truthfully and unbiased -- I myself plan to go into a career in alternative medicine, as soon as I can figure out which one makes the most sense to me, and gives genuine results. And again, I come from a background in biology (B.S. Bio student here..).

 

So where does Qi fit into the spectrum of things as we know it? I see lots and lots of martial artists, teachers, etc. making Qi into a much more tangible concept for westerners - do you think they are providing a disservice to the original intent?

 

As many many ancient spirtual traditions have pointed to. Its hard to except that we create our world and what is real and what is not. Chinsese medicine and ayurvda have been working for thousands of years, Do you need more proof?

 

I'm my opinion, this is probably the biggest line of proof. Ancient societies (in particular) never maintained practices that were harmful, or weren't beneficial. Think about hunter gatherers that currently exist on the planet -- if a practice doesn't benefit them, they get rid of it. Why? Life is not only short, but it's rough, harsh, and unforgiving. When it's hard to get any food in your stomach, you won't spend time dicking around for something that "might not work".

 

This doesn't mean there isn't a degree of the placebo effect -- but if the placebo effect can cure everything from a cold to cancer, we've got some serious re-considering to do...

[erdweir]

I'm very interested in this topic - but it has taken a serious detour, .

 

Where do you guys think Qi fits into biology? Is it a physical phenomenon (E.g. electromagnetic energy), or is it something else?

 

So where does Qi fit into the spectrum of things as we know it? I see lots and lots of martial artists, teachers, etc. making Qi into a much more tangible concept for westerners - do you think they are providing a disservice to the original intent?

 

I am not sure Qi fits into the EM spectrum in any particular place. My guess is that a real intensive study of Qi will overturn a few concepts in or received wisdom such as the established laws of thermodynamics. of course this is just rank speculation, but studies that have tried to measure Qi have come up with allot of different results and I think this points to the outcome that our current view of things in full of holes. While Cosmologists argue about dark matter and superstrings, hadron supercolliders and new space tellescopes are being constructed that will surely reveal even more holes in our view of things.