How do you see chi and biology?

[enouch]

Edited June 14, 2009 by enouch

[Martial Development]

Evil science, eh? Okay.

Nope. All I wanted was a single act of selflessness, but I guess that was too much to ask for huh?

Okay, okay. I get it. I wasn't referring to the small band of disciples you see encircling Randi's foundation though.

 

Thanks for the response. _/\_

 

Assuming for the sake of argument that the abilities in question were real, why would you assume that proving them to Randi's satisfaction would be a positive or selfless act? Why assume this would be good for anyone other than Randi himself?

[enouch]

I'm very interested in this topic - but it has taken a serious detour, .

 

Where do you guys think Qi fits into biology? Is it a physical phenomenon (E.g. electromagnetic energy), or is it something else?

 

There is a lot of stuff on both sides of the table, regarding alternative medicines. Unfortunately, the problem is that there is much too much "anecdotal" evidence for their effectiveness in treating cancers, arthritis, etc. Many studies on alternative medicines have been disproved, some have been proved -- but there will always be "those stories" you hear.

 

I tell you this truthfully and unbiased -- I myself plan to go into a career in alternative medicine, as soon as I can figure out which one makes the most sense to me, and gives genuine results. And again, I come from a background in biology (B.S. Bio student here..).

 

So where does Qi fit into the spectrum of things as we know it? I see lots and lots of martial artists, teachers, etc. making Qi into a much more tangible concept for westerners - do you think they are providing a disservice to the original intent?

I'm my opinion, this is probably the biggest line of proof. Ancient societies (in particular) never maintained practices that were harmful, or weren't beneficial. Think about hunter gatherers that currently exist on the planet -- if a practice doesn't benefit them, they get rid of it. Why? Life is not only short, but it's rough, harsh, and unforgiving. When it's hard to get any food in your stomach, you won't spend time dicking around for something that "might not work".

 

This doesn't mean there isn't a degree of the placebo effect -- but if the placebo effect can cure everything from a cold to cancer, we've got some serious re-considering to do...

Is this chi? Chunnyi Lynn refers to chi as magnetic field-I just thought Drew was eccentric!

Hunt carried out a series of ingenious experiments with profound implications for athletic performance. In one experiment, subjects were placed in a Mu Room, a shielded room in the physics department at UCLA, where the natural electromagnetic energy of the air can be altered and manipulated without changing the gravitational force or the oxygen content.

 

As electromagnetic energy was gradually removed from the room, the subjects became confused and disoriented: "Sensory feedback was so impaired that subjects were totally unaware of the location of their bodies in space."

 

Hunt describes the subjects bursting into tears and sobbing. And, "although they reported they were not sad, their bodies responded as though they were threatened."

 

Next, Hunt kept the electrical energy in the room normal, but decreased the magnetism. The dramatic result was gross lack of coordination. "The entire neurological mechanism was thrown off. Subjects could not balance their bodies; they had difficulty touching finger to nose or performing simple coordinated movements. They lost kinesthetic awareness." ("No, officer, I'm not drunk. The reason I can't touch my nose with my finger is because I just came from the Mu Room.")

 

Then, "when the magnetic state was increased beyond the normal state," Hunt writes, "subjects could stand easily on one foot, even on tiptoes, or lean to previously impossible angles without falling. Motor coordination had somehow improved."

 

Apparently, the process of movement and coordination is related not just to interaction with the earth's gravitational field, but to its environmental electromagnetic field as well.

 

Hunt's findings led her to speculate about "the possibility of training athletes and rehabilitating those with muscular disabilities in a strong magnetic energy field." The Vital Energy Machine appears to do just that.

 

Using the Vital Energy Machine

 

Nothing could be easier than using the VE Machine, which engulfs the user in a rich electromagnetic field. By temporarily increasing the intensity and availability of these natural energies, a person using the machine improves his or her motor skills, coordination, stamina, mental clarity and feelings of well being, all necessary for optimal performance.

 

The user (stripped of metallic items, including rings, watches, necklaces, keys, etc.) simply sits with the machine for five to 20 minutes per session, every other day. On the day of an athletic event, he or she does a 20-minute session at least one hour before performing. The hands hold what looks like a child's play steering wheel, while the feet are placed flat on a magnetic plate. Soothing natural electrical energy flows through the hands and feet, while electromagnetic energy emanating from the unit bathes the entire body.

 

The experience feels good, and most people emerge from their first session with the machine wearing a wide, beatific smile.

 

The VE Machine Story

 

Larry Azure, 63, the driving force behind Rejuvenetics and the VE Machine, is an unlikely protagonist in this story. An electrical engineer-- turned-entrepreneur, he retired in 1994 after having brought three high-tech companies public: Pacer Corp., Wall Data Corp. and Voicecom Data Systems. He doesn't need the money and he doesn't need the tsuris. What impels him, though, are his own experiences with bio-electromagnetism and his desire to partake in a worthwhile endeavor that will enhance the human condition. Sounds hokey, I know, but the guy's for real.

 

The story of the development of the VE device almost sounds apocryphal. In 1996, a young inventor, knowing of Azure's interest in edgy, high-tech ideas, brought him an early prototype of what since has become a much more sophisticated instrument. Azure kept it in his basement, playing with it intermittently as he and some colleagues worked on developing it.

 

Here's how he tells the story: "There was a small fichus tree near the device that we had put aside because it had not been watered for months and appeared to be dead. One night, my wife, Judy, called me downstairs and told me to look at the plant. It was budding and growing new leaves-and pointing itself directly toward the machine.

 

"A few days later, Judy suggested I try the device on my 14-year-old Brittany spaniel, Rip. At 14, the vet told me, Rip was at the maximum life-- span of Brittany spaniels and was fast going downhill. He had stopped running with me about a year earlier and, by then, was unable to stand on all fours.

 

"After treating Rip a very few times, he not only was standing, but exhibiting enthusiasm, wagging his tail and regaining his old personality. I decided to have him join me again on my daily 45-minute run, and he kept up. He ran with me another two years. The last time I saw him, he was chasing a rabbit into the bushes. A mountain lion probably got him."

 

These serendipitous anecdotes made a believer of Azure. "Up until Rip's rejuvenation, I was pretty laid-back about the machine. Now I decided to take it seriously."

 

A small human trial involving six late-stage AIDS patients (and four patients suffering from chronic fatigue) was authorized by the National Institutes of Health and conducted by the New York Health and Healing Center. The Center had been asked by the NIH to conduct alternative treatments and trials on volunteer late-stage AIDS patients. The AIDS patients exhibited thrush (an inability to swallow), Kaposi's sarcoma, night sweats, sleeplessness, an inability to concentrate and a host of other symptoms.

 

I obtained a copy of the Center's report. After 12 weeks of treatment with the bio-electromagnetic device, the report states, the patients were "in vibrant good health," with their symptoms dramatically reduced or completely removed. The AIDS patients were still HIV-positive, but their symptoms were gone.

 

In a follow-up, one year later, all of the patients had maintained a symptom-free life and all were working.

 

This small formal trial encouraged the continued development of the machine, Azure says. He formed Rejuvenetics and, after five additional years of development and experimentation, decided to enter the athletic performance market.

 

A Demonstration

 

In early May, Azure and another Rejuvenetics officer, Steve Baker, flew to Phoenix to meet with me and two of the smartest, most creative swim coaches in the swim biz: Bob Gillett and Ron Johnson. Bob is the brilliant, tech-savvy coach of Arizona Desert Fox. Along with his swimmer, Misty Hyman, he invented the underwater, on-your-side fly, and he currently is working on new applications of leading-edge technology to swimming training. Ron, head honcho of Sun Devils Masters and the only coach ever to be named both the collegiate and Masters Coach of the Year, is the inventor of the world's most popular hand paddles. He is also, arguably, the greatest male swimmer in the world over the age of 70. 1 knew these guys would ask skeptical, hard-hitting questions. They did. And after five intense hours of a far-ranging discussion, they acknowledged that there just might be some merit to this strange-looking contraption. Larry agreed to leave the device in Phoenix so we could experiment with it.

 

Good, Good, Good, Good Vibrations

 

After learning how to use the machine (which is so easy even I had no trouble), we tried it out on a number of individuals. The results ranged from the subtle to the dramatic.

 

On the dramatic end, take the case of one very skeptical 65-year-old woman. Extremely active all her life, she has suffered from severe arthritis for about 10 years and has been unable to get up from a lying position without assistance. After one 12-minute treatment, she sprang up from a lying position like an athletic woman half her age.

 

I was dumbfounded. I felt like I was at a revival meeting.

 

"Heal!," it seems I'd said. And she was healed.

 

"No one's going to believe this," I mumbled to myself. "Heck, I observed the whole thing, and I'm not sure I believe it."

 

Then there was the case of Ron Johnson, himself. Ron is a super-athletic chap who has kept himself in superb condition all his life. Earlier in 2002, he had undergone both knee and groin surgery, leaving him inflexible (for him) and unable to squat more than a few inches. After his first session with the VE Machine, he immediately did a fast set of 20 full squats. Without pain.

 

"Ron," I said. "Are you sure you couldn't do these 15 minutes ago?" Grinning from ear to ear, he said: "Absolutely. This is amazing."

 

After that experience, Ron did sessions every other day and began tearing up the pool in practice, swimming repeats at national record pace for his age group. Then: another injury, just 10 days before USMS Nationals in Honolulu. A large golf ball-sized cyst, known as a Baker's Cyst, formed behind his left knee. There's no treatment for a Baker's Cyst; it hurts. If you're lucky, it subsides gradually.

 

Ron was unable to kick breaststroke at all, and any kick was painful. He contemplated withdrawing from the meet even as he kept up his every-- other-day VE sessions. Though it did not disappear, the cyst grew smaller very quickly, diminishing to the size of a marble. The pain subsided, and Ron decided to go to Hawaii.

 

At the USMS Nationals, Ron swam six events and won them all in national record time for men 70-74. Although his times in five events were not as fast as he'd anticipated going before the Baker's cyst, they were much faster than he'd even dreamed of going after contracting the cyst. In one event-the 200 IM-he surpassed even his own lofty expectations.

 

"This is incredible," Johnson told me. "I was so incapacitated I was going to scratch the entire meet. Instead, the VE Machine got me back into the water and allowed me to swim much faster than I thought I could go."

 

Julio Santos, a world-class swimmer from Ecuador, is another swimmer who feels he has benefited from the VE Machine's good vibrations. An Olympic semifinalist in the 50 meter free (22.32), Santos underwent shoulder surgery several months ago but was not healing quickly. Even a series of cortisone shots had only helped a little. Santos had about a half dozen "handson" sessions on the machine before leaving for Croatia for the summer, and said the VE Machine has "helped a lot."

[Tokoyo Tama]

Watch out for bogus studies. But don't listen to me, compare the quality of research yourself.

 

Watching out for bogus studies should be a mantra of the modern age. Pharma companies regularly employ methods such as simply not publishing unsuccessful studies and giving dosages based upon the most favorable (ie profitable) results as opposed to the most relevant ones. Think taking rats instead of rabbits as the model upon which to base dosages, even if rats are shown to be the more relevant test animal. Alternative medicine studies are often not properly double blinded or have such a small pool of participants that the results are not statistically significant. Generically I agree with your statement, but you seem to be insinuating the study 11:33 is probably bogus without stating it. Are you simply expecting it to be bogus?

 

I have been meaning to bring up William Tiller as a western researcher into what he labels 'subtle energy' systems, but the work is dense and it's been a while since I looked at it in detail. His early work has included some tests involving Qi Gong masters (or teachers at least) and measuring their biophoton emission and I believe emf emission. These are both naturally produced, he just measured the difference in emission from normal during Qi Gong exercises (if memory serves). I believe this was published in Science and Human Transformation, if only because his later books focus on his own lab experiments.

 

 

videos, because I'm not up to task to describe his work

 

long summary of his experiments, not directly on Chi Gong or presented by Tiller himself

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5...p;client=safari

 

 

Tiller presenting a section of his work and theory

at 6:30 he specifically describes his model within which the acupuncture meridian system works, though it is in physics terminology that is awkward for the layman (myself included)

Edited June 15, 2009 by Tokoyo Tama

[Ya Mu]

I never said it was. There have been several independent studies of Homeopathy, TCM, Ayurveda, Reiki, faith healing, etc. Each and every major alternative medical tradition has been scientifically tested, and none of them have statistically confirmatory results. What does that tell you?

Those are the only ones which have shown measurable non-placebo effects so far.

 

You may wish to check the database at the Qigong Institute for qigong effectiveness and studies. Large number of studies.

Medical qigong is not placebo, it works on humans and animals as well.