5 elements...

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What exactly are the 5 elements? I think the biggest reason I never really had great success with element work is because deep, deep down I never really believed in the elements. Never ever really 'felt' wood...metal... and I after reading thru ancient alchemy.. I.e. Secret of the golden flower.. The names of the elements where just symbols.. Earth is awareness.. Fire is attention.. Etc... Never did I come across any ancient literature talking about the 5 elements in the sense chia or winn do... And this definately does not boost my 'faith' in fusion

What I believe in is chi.. Jing... And shen. I have experienced each of these seperately, and I believe I can discern between which energy I am feeling.

 

One beget two... Two beget three.. Does this mean anything regarding alchemy>

 

And again.. Perhaps someone could explain to me what the elements really are... Where they come from, what they're comosedof... What they feel like... Why they are attributed to their colors... Why can kidneys be black?? Why can they be blue? What if I did fusion with the colors all mixed? What if I used different colors with every practice? What do the elements feel like? I felt fire.. Or what I thought could be fire... But it could easily just be jing that I felt, and considered it fire.

 

Anyways.. Sure you guys get the point..

[freeform]

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Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[VCraigP]

Perhaps taking the view of the 5 Phases of chi is a better perspective.

M.Winn emphasizes this view and it is a traditional view, not his alone.

 

What really helped me was view the 5 phases in the following way.

Heart = Radiant energy moving out in all directions.

Lung = Descending energy moving down into more dense physical.

Kidney = Magnetic energy, condensing into most dense physical, most internal.

Liver = Rising energy, moving out into the world, ambition, new growth.

Spleen = Centered energy holding the middle of the 5 phases of movement.

 

I actually put this together while looking at and thinking about the simple arrows and lines which accompany the 5 elements circles on M.Winns Fusion TShirt Diagram.

 

5 Phases is more the intention of the concept than to see them as things. Another way to think of the 5 elements is as one big circle of energy, a continuum and not one discreet element sitting off to the side.

 

The aspects of the 5 elements are NOT restricted at all to Healing Tao method.

Traditional Chinese Medicine theory recognizes and utilizes 5 phase theory. While modern chinese medicine does deemphasize Shen theory, and 5 element theory is secondary, the concepts of the 5 phases as it relates to how the organ systems work is still there.

 

To me the concept of Fusion is not complex. It is a way to integrate various impulses, aspects and fuse them together to achieve a balance. Feel or perceive the 5 phases in whatever way you can get a handle on them and merge them in your center, whether that be a more mental space or a more physical space to you the sense of balance and harmony, and quiet-peace which you can achieve with this technique is REAL, to me. This is my experience.

 

Taming these currents and working with them to come to a harmonized center IS a prerequisite for Alchemy practice. That is not to say that this is the only way to achieve a balanced and peaceful harmonized center, but it is the one which makes sense to me. Fusion is not unique to HT. In fact I learned a Fusion practice in simpler form from the Abbot on Huashan. This was a nice verification that this was not a Chia/Winn creation. Yes they did refine it, as they refined the practice of the healing sounds, incorporating more sensory aspects in order to collect as much disparate energys as possible.

 

In my opinion FUSION is often misunderstood and not adequately explored before moving to the "more interesting" practices such as sexual practice or Iron shirt.

Is it possible to begin Micro orbit practice without Inner smile, perhaps, but unless you are naturally in that place, I wouldn't advise it.

 

 

just so doing Iron shirt or Healing Love without understanding or embodying inner smile relaxation is problematic at best, learning to do Fusion is a deeper level of integration which addresses many things first which would become deep problems when the energy of iron shirt and/or healing love practice is added.

 

The prerequisite of Fusion is overlooked at your risk, and I think a lot of the problems people have complained about the system and the problems it has caused them. I think a deeper exploration of the fusion process FIRST could address many if not all of these issues.

 

Perhaps a radical view, at least not one I have seen represented in a while. But this is M.Winns position and I share it. It must be said at this point that M.Chia's approach to Fusion makes things F...ing CONfusing and I believe Michaels approach is much more accessible. In fact his approach brought me out of a very stuck place with regards to this practice.

 

Good Luck to all.

 

Craig

 

 

What exactly are the 5 elements? I think the biggest reason I never really had great success with element work is because deep, deep down I never really believed in the elements.  Never ever really 'felt' wood...metal... and I after reading thru ancient alchemy.. I.e. Secret of the golden flower.. The names of the elements where just symbols.. Earth is awareness.. Fire is attention.. Etc... Never did I come across any ancient literature talking about the 5 elements in the sense chia or winn do... And this definately does not boost my 'faith' in fusion

What I believe in is chi.. Jing... And shen. I have experienced each of these seperately, and I believe I can discern between which energy I am feeling.

 

One beget two... Two beget three.. Does this mean anything regarding alchemy>

 

And again.. Perhaps someone could explain to me what  the elements really are... Where they come from, what they're comosedof... What they feel like... Why they are attributed to their colors... Why can kidneys be black?? Why can they be blue? What if I did fusion with the colors all mixed? What if I used different colors with every practice? What do the elements feel like? I felt fire.. Or what I thought could be fire... But it could easily just be jing that I felt, and considered it fire.

 

Anyways.. Sure you guys get the point..

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[...]

The colors I can understand when used as a tool for deeper concentration... And also to create a sort of pavlov effect. ... But I have been given the impression that they mean more that. .. That colors emenate from certain emotions and symptoms... Most popularly and simply, black is the color of the aura of dying people. .. So if we use colors as focus in meditation... Is there not any sort of subtle consequence?

 

Emotion.. The inner smile is the first and foremost thing I disagree with when it comes to practice... The ancients said that the emotions are 'robbers'. ...good and bad emotion. If you look to acupunctue, you will notice that 'joy scatters qi' and the like... So how can the use of emotion in meditation be justaified when working with the inner smile and the elements? What is the reasoning? I have experienced periods of great peace without emotion. So, I know that working with emotions need not be necassary for a kind of 'nirvana'. (In fact I believe that great joy can be extremely detrimental when you experience these sorts of 'emotionless' blisses.. I.e. Feeling great joy for your success at ecstasy will throw everything off balance and eventually bring you down a bit. Is this right? What do you guys think about my thoughts on this?)

 

And...uh..uhm..the phases... I understand the elements more than I did before, thanks for those posts however, I now definately don't understand how you work with the elements, now! Especially fusion 1. In fusion 1, am I simply moving about the qi of the 5 organs, balancing them out and replenishing their qi supplies?? So.. In fact you are not working with the elements at all... Just the qi of the organs?? Is this right?? And fusion 3 is just opening meridians, if I remember right... Don't remember what fusion 2 is... But you never really feel or work with elements... They are just a theoretical state of energy??

 

Man, if I am on the right track, chia has a shitty ass system... Babies and animals and colors and all sorts of incredibly ridiculous things in fusion... Man, fuck no wonder I thought it was bullshit...

 

And if this is the case, I don't believe fusion is a prerequisite for higher states.. If fusion is simply acquiring balance, then I believe balance can be the indirect result of other techniques... Zazen for example.

 

And to think I almost sat done and thought about memorizing all those animals and babies and things just to balance the qi in my organs....

 

 

Am I missing something? I would still appreciate elaboration andor input from anyone else willing...

[freeform]

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Edited October 23, 2019 by freeform

[...]

Oh man I love jung... I haven't studied psychology or anything... But I have read thru a bit of his autobiography and his book, 'man and his symbols'.

His theory on archetypes is amazing... He was such a fucking genius... I was hesitant to believe and first, but the evidence he put out in his 'man and his symbols' book really does wonders to backing his theory...

Even if I can't recall any instances such symbolism in my life

Ironically, I just taped a picture of jung pouring over a book to my wall... I ripped it out of a book I borrowed from a library lol... And I think he is my recent inspiration back into spiritualism...

Anyways..I don't agree with you about the smiling thing. I am just not convinced. I think the technique is a waste of meditation time. (I have tried it many times, btw)...

I forgot about the whole transforming negative emotion thing. I think that's bull too..

I never did anything like that in my hours of fusion... Not that I am consciously aware anyways. Think of emotion as disease.. As yellow emperor says .. From something I read recently on board.. Treating a disease once it has happened is like trying to dig a well after you've become thirsty... You see? Same kind of premise.

 

If you soemhow become a master of auch fusion, get enraged or even just mildly upset for some reason, and immediately transform it... Well, you lack wisdom and true spiritual progress anyways, as portrayed in your looseness in emotion... You should have been practicing in a way as to the point where you wouldn't get upset in the first place... Which is easy with detachment and inner calm.

 

Or maybe I am missing something still, do you think?

 

 

 

I think you hit the nail on the head when talking about the pavlovian effect. Personaly I prefer the notion that the actual colours dont really matter that much - for example the colours corresponding with 4, western elements are completely different and still 'work'. You might have two people who can see auras see completely different colours in the same person at the same time. Personally, I think it's the importance of connecting the specific colour with the specific energy and emotion and stick to it. However if there is some specific, objective effect from the actual, traditional colour, then I'm just fine with that - and since this might be the case, I just use the traditional colours.

 

Regarding the Inner Smile, there is a fundamental difference in the way you and I think of it. When I smile, I normaly dont feel any emotion - smiling is just a natural way of connecting with someone else. Instead of smelling eachothers arses, we smile to eachother and that is what indicates your acceptance of the person you smile to. For me a smile signifies rapport and acceptance, rather than some cheezy, blissed out emotion. So when you smile a gentle, sincere smile to your organs and body, it's a way of feeling this rapport, connection and acceptance - rather than 'happiness', 'joy' or 'love'.

 

I've not yet reached the level of fusion, and infact I'm really looking forward to it unlike most others. So perhaps I'm not the best person to listen to, but what I understand of it is this: Rather than balancing the energies of the organs, as you put it (which i reccon happens already with the 6 healing sounds)- it's more of taking all your deep-seated negative emotions and transforming them into the positive versions. Each of the organs and emotions correlate with the 5 elements and the respective energies.

 

I believe that just like the 4 western elements, the chinese 5 elements correspond to certain archetypes, which is a Jungian term - so the correlation of the elements, organs, animals, weather conditions, personalities, immortals etc make sense to me. And the practice of Fusion is not so far fetched if you've looked into psychological models such as Transactional Analysis, Jung etc.

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[VCraigP]

On Inner Smile.

 

Notice - Inner smile.

 

This is not the social outward smile.

Just as in healing sounds, the sound is inward - Sublingual.

 

In a way the inner smile is also not an outward expression. More of a feeling tone.

it is NOT excess Joy.

In fact this goes back to a split in philosophy between camps in taoism.

One camp says "do not manipulate chi"

 

Another says "Consciously working with your energy has it's place"

 

This is the camp which HT practice (among many others) falls into.

 

... you seem to fall into the latter which equates inner smile with the tendency to bring forward heart energy emotion in an excessive way.

 

Who was it who said "the technique of no technique is still a technique."

 

It is too easy to say that one can just fall into a state of grace because you are open to it. Is it possible to become a master of anything without learning and applying principles and techniques?

 

Inner smile is a simple technique which serves several purposes.

IN my view the primary one is to start the process of going inside, which is important for modern people who tend to be mostly externally oriented and disconnected from their body. The inner smile process is a way of exploring yourself physically. It is a way of connecting with external chi, according to my interpretation of Chia's approach it brings in Cosmic chi energy which is one of the 3 external forces, Earth Chi, Cosmic Chi (or human plane chi) and Heavenly Chi.

So you are connecting to external "cosmic chi" and you are bringing your consciousness into your body. Also you are doing a practice which is almost the same as Progressive relaxation by bringing the golden light chi into the body step by step system by system, organ by organ. It is a deep exploration into body consciousness and relaxation. You are also WIRING the body/mind to accomplish a deep state of relaxation and openess which is necessary to do other work, Neidangung or Chigung. Many masters speak of entering into the ChiKung state before starting your practice. The inner smile process enables you to practice entering into this deep state, step by step and to wire it so that you can move more quickly to that state with practice to where it becomes almost immediate.

 

It is a Technique. So if you are opposed to any such there would be no traction to get you to go along with my statements. But as a technique, and viewed in a way to understand what the goals of the technique are, it is in my opinion a very good technique.

 

Finally to reiterate, it is not done externally, it is done softly and lightly with the slightest lifting of the corners of the eyes and the mouth. If it is forced and external then it is LIKELY that it will feel like excess, excess Joy, overheating the heart, etc.

 

Smiles to you.

 

Craig

[farooq]

On Inner Smile.

 

Notice - Inner smile.

 

This is not the social outward smile.

Just as in healing sounds, the sound is inward - Sublingual.

 

In a way the inner smile is also not an outward expression.  More of a feeling tone.

it is NOT excess Joy.

In fact this goes back to a split in philosophy between camps in taoism.

One camp says "do not manipulate  chi"

 

Another says "Consciously working with your energy has it's place"

 

This is the camp which HT practice (among many others) falls into.

 

... you seem to fall into the latter which equates inner smile with the tendency to bring forward heart energy emotion in an excessive way.

 

Who was it who said "the technique of no technique is still a technique."

 

It is too easy to say that one can just fall into a state of grace because you are open to it.  Is it possible to become a master of anything without learning and applying principles and techniques?

 

Inner smile is a simple technique which serves several purposes.

IN my view the primary one is to start the process of going inside, which is important for modern people who tend to be mostly externally oriented and disconnected from their body.  The inner smile process is a way of exploring yourself physically.  It is a way of connecting with external chi, according to my interpretation of Chia's approach it brings in Cosmic chi energy which is one of the 3 external forces, Earth Chi, Cosmic Chi (or human plane chi) and Heavenly Chi.

So you are connecting to external "cosmic chi" and you are bringing your consciousness into your body.  Also you are doing a practice which is almost the same as Progressive relaxation by bringing the golden light chi into the body step by step system by system, organ by organ.  It is a deep exploration into body consciousness and relaxation.  You are also WIRING the body/mind to accomplish a deep state of relaxation and openess which is necessary to do other work, Neidangung or Chigung.  Many masters speak of entering into the ChiKung state before starting your practice.  The inner smile process enables you to practice entering into this deep state, step by step and to wire it so that you can move more quickly to that state with practice to where it becomes almost immediate.

 

It is a Technique.  So if you are opposed to any such there would be no traction to get you to go along with my statements.  But as a technique, and viewed in a way to understand what the goals of the technique are, it is in my opinion a very good technique.

 

Finally to reiterate, it is not done externally, it is done softly and lightly with the slightest lifting of the corners of the eyes and the mouth.  If it is forced and external then it is LIKELY that it will feel like excess, excess Joy, overheating the heart, etc.

 

Smiles to you.

 

Craig

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Hi Everyone,

 

When I do the inner smile deeply, i feel duality slipping away.

 

The inner smile for me is like what is meant to feel unconditional love for anything and everything.

 

The process results in great healing - physically, mentally and spiritually

 

[agharta]

Perhaps the 5 elements are simply the Platonic solids and their associated colors. The hindus say the root chakra is represented by a yellow cube and corresponds to EArth. The 2nd chakra is represented by a blue icosahedron and corresponds to water. The 3rd (solar plexus) is represented by a red tetrahedron and corresponds to fire. the 4th (heart) is represented by an octahedron and corresponds to air, and the throat (5th) chakra is represented by a dodecahedron and corresponds to ether or akasha.