What's the big-deal with this so Called "Wang Liping?"

[Adam West]

Yeah, there is a question over his authenticity in my mind. I've got his biography, but I can't get beyond the first few chapters. It feels all wrong to me. Contrived. No ring of truth. Perhaps there is some truth to the view that he is a manufactured stooge for the government. I don't know. But I haven't seen any evidence to support his realized reputation so far. And some to support its falsity.

 

In kind regards,

 

Adam.

[goldisheavy]

Yeah, there is a question over his authenticity in my mind.

 

I don't think his authenticity is what's important. I think the more important thing is the psychodynamics going on inside the student's mind. For all I know Wang Liping lives on dew and air and floats in the clouds. What's important is how he and the other people relate. If they have a worldly relationship, and if the manner they dance in is nothing other than a perpetuation of convention, that's important to notice for all concerned. For the master, the question is, "why? (why do you lead on your students?) (are you pretending to be someone you are not? are you just a worldly tradesman and not a sublime master as you present yourself?)" For the student, "What do you really want? Do you enjoy convention? If yes, then paying for services like this goes into the entertainment category of your bills, and no harm done, since you know it's just mindless fun, like going to a circus. If no, then how do you expect to transcend convention by merely following it like you always had followed in the past? What's your goal, if any? What is the vision of your ideal life like?"

 

Supposedly, if someone calls themselves "master" they do not need help and we don't have to worry about such person. But if someone seeks to learn from a master, then we worry about these people, since they are fragile and vulnerable. A master is someone invulnerable, so we can even shit a big pile of poop on the master's head and that's OK too. At least, isn't it what we think masters are? On the other hand, if masters are vulnerable, fragile and fallible just like you, then how are you different from a master? Why not call yourself a master too? If the master has more compassion, then are you saying you are a bit of a dick right now? Really?

 

This is from one of my favorite texts:

 

Thus addressed, the Licchavi Vimalakirti spoke the following verses to the bodhisattva Sarvarupasamdarsana:

 

Of the true bodhisattvas,

The mother is the transcendence of wisdom,

The father is the skill in liberative technique;

The Leaders are born of such parents.

 

Their wife is the joy in the Dharma,

Love and compassion are their daughters,

The Dharma and the truth are their sons;

And their home is deep thought on the meaning of voidness.

 

All the passions are their disciples,

Controlled at will.

Their friends are the aids to enlightenment;

Thereby they realize supreme enlightenment.

 

Their companions, ever with them,

Are the six transcendences.

Their consorts are the means of unification,

Their music is the teaching of the Dharma.

 

The incantations make their garden,

Which blossoms with the flowers of the factors of enlightenment,

With trees of the great wealth of the Dharma,

And fruits of the gnosis of liberation.

 

Their pool consists of the eight liberations,

Filled with the water of concentration,

Covered with the lotuses of the seven impurities -

Who bathes therein becomes immaculate.

 

Their bearers are the six superknowledges,

Their vehicle is the unexcelled Mahayana,

Their driver is the spirit of enlightenment,

And their path is the eightfold peace.

 

Their ornaments are the auspicious signs,

And the eighty marks;

Their garland is virtuous aspiration,

And their clothing is good conscience and consideration.

 

Their wealth is the holy Dharma,

And their business is its teaching,

Their great income is pure practice,

And it is dedicated to the supreme enlightenment.

 

Their bed consists of the four contemplations,

And its spread is the pure livelihood,

And their awakening consists of gnosis,

Which is constant learning and meditation.

 

Their food is the ambrosia of the teachings,

And their drink is the juice of liberation.

Their bath is pure aspiration,

And morality their unguent and perfume.

 

Having conquered the enemy passions,

They are invincible heroes.

Having subdued the four Maras,

They raise their standard on the field of enlightenment.

 

They manifest birth voluntarily,

Yet they are not born, nor do they originate.

They shine in all the fields of the Buddhas,

Just like the rising sun.

 

Though they worship Buddhas by the millions,

With every conceivable offering,

They never dwell upon the least difference

Between the Buddhas and themselves.

(editor's comment: pay attention here! This is the most important part of the poem!)

 

They journey through all Buddha-fields

In order to bring benefit to living beings,

Yet they see those fields as just like empty space,

Free of any conceptual notions of "living beings."

 

The fearless bodhisattvas can manifest,

All in a single instant,

The forms, sounds, and manners of behavior

Of all living beings.

 

Although they recognize the deeds of Maras,

They can get along even with these Maras;

For even such activities may be manifested

By those perfected in liberative technique.

 

They play with illusory manifestations

In order to develop living beings,

Showing themselves to be old or sick,

And even manifesting their own deaths.

 

They demonstrate the burning of the earth

In the consuming flames of the world's end,

In order to demonstrate impermanence

To living beings with the notion of permanence.

 

Invited by hundreds of thousands of living beings,

All in the same country,

They partake of offerings at the homes of all,

And dedicate all for the sake of enlightenment.

 

They excel in all esoteric sciences,

And in the many different crafts,

And they bring forth the happiness

Of all living beings.

 

By devoting themselves as monks

To all the strange sects of the world,

They develop all those beings

Who have attached themselves to dogmatic views.

(editor's comment: they enter religion for the purpose of liberating people from religion, pay attention, this is also important; "strange sects" includes Buddhism too)

 

They may become suns or moons,

Indras, Brahmas, or lords of creatures,

They may become fire or water

Or earth or wind.

 

During the short aeons of maladies,

They become the best holy medicine;

They make beings well and happy,

And bring about their liberation.

 

During the short aeons of famine,

They become food and drink.

Having first alleviated thirst and hunger,

They teach the Dharma to living beings.

 

During the short aeons of swords,

They meditate on love,

Introducing to nonviolence

Hundreds of millions of living beings.

 

In the middle of great battles

They remain impartial to both sides;

For bodhisattvas of great strength

Delight in reconciliation of conflict.

 

In order to help the living beings,

They voluntarily descend into

The hells which are attached

To all the inconceivable buddha-fields.

 

They manifest their lives

In all the species of the animal kingdom,

Teaching the Dharma everywhere.

Thus they are called "Leaders."

 

They display sensual enjoyment to the worldlings,

And trances to the meditative.

They completely conquer the Maras,

And allow them no chance to prevail.

 

Just as it can be shown that a lotus

Cannot exist in the center of a fire,

So they show the ultimate unreality

Of both pleasures and trances.

 

They intentionally become courtesans

In order to win men over,

And, having caught them with the hook of desire,

They establish them in the buddha-gnosis.

 

In order to help living beings,

They always become chieftains,

Captains, priests, and ministers,

Or even prime ministers.

 

For the sake of the poor,

They become inexhaustible treasures,

Causing those to whom they give their gifts

To conceive the spirit of enlightenment.

 

They become invincible champions,

For the sake of the proud and the vain,

And, having conquered all their pride,

They start them on the quest for enlightenment.

 

They always stand at the head

Of those terrified with fright,

And, having bestowed fearlessness upon them,

They develop them toward enlightenment.

 

They become great holy men,

With the superknowledges and pure continence,

And thus induce living beings to the morality

Of tolerance, gentleness, and discipline.

 

Here in the world, they fearlessly behold

Those who are masters to be served,

And they become their servants or slaves,

Or serve as their disciples.

 

Well trained in liberative technique,

They demonstrate all activities,

Whichever possibly may be a means

To make beings delight in the Dharma.

 

Their practices are infinite;

And their spheres of influence are infinite;

Having perfected an infinite wisdom,

They liberate an infinity of living beings.

 

Even for the Buddhas themselves,

During a million aeons,

Or even a hundred million aeons,

It would be hard to express all their virtues.

 

Except for some inferior living beings,

Without any intelligence at all,

Is there anyone with any discernment

Who, having heard this teaching,

Would not wish for the supreme enlightenment?

 

Who is this written for? Why was this written? I have highlighted the parts I wish to draw your attention to, and included the rest of the poem for context and just because it's awesome.

[Dainin]

A master is someone invulnerable, so we can even shit a big pile of poop on the master's head and that's OK too. At least, isn't it what we think masters are? On the other hand, if masters are vulnerable, fragile and fallible just like you, then how are you different from a master? Why not call yourself a master too? If the master has more compassion, then are you saying you are a bit of a dick right now? Really?

 

I think in this instance you would be master baiting!

[goldisheavy]

In Opening the Dragon Gate, Wang Liping is described by the authors as having died and come back to life.

 

This is an experience that's common for the human beings. If this is what makes one a master, then we have so many masters among us! Then I am a master, and so is my dad, and hell, almost everyone has had this experience in one way or another. Let the worshiping and adulation begin. These "dying" experiences are valuable, and we should learn from them, but should we suck on the person's feet for having one of those? Kindness is a good thing, but there is a difference between kindness and adulation. Kindness yes, adulation no, unless you're fooling around, then also yes.

 

And when his mother worried about him, she was told that her son was not ill and she was asked: who can become a spiritual immortal without going mad?

 

I think there is a good bit of wisdom here! What does this have to do with Wang Liping though? This is about everyone. Who here is not mad? Raise your hand.

 

 

I think in this instance you would be master baiting!

 

You are my bitch.

[goldisheavy]

So What's the supposed diffrence between "Wang Liping" and "the magus of Java: John Chang"? Isn't aspiring to be like John Chang a waste of time!

 

Not necessarily. It's hard to say what is a waste of time. Even making mistakes is not a waste of time. Even if we say, "this is a mistake", still, the process of mistake-making is worthwhile.

 

Isn't communion with the divine more important and empowering than having these so-called powers

 

Not really. Communion with the divine is a waste of time actually. What's divine? Isn't it just your judgement, where you deem something to be divine? Who made you the arbiter of divinity? On the other hand, if it is you who decides what is divine and what is not, make everything divine! Do it now. Then stop communing. Make yourself divine. So if you don't decide what's divine, you cannot discern it at all, so don't pretend. But if you do decide it, make yourself divine and stop the useless communing.

Edited June 9, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Pietro]

A master is someone invulnerable

This is not correct.

Masters are human beings and definitly vulnerable.

If you want to say that a master is stronger than a student,

and we should protect the student more than the master, ok.

But the phrase, by itself, is false.

[goldisheavy]

This is not correct.

Masters are human beings and definitly vulnerable.

If you want to say that a master is stronger than a student,

and we should protect the student more than the master, ok.

But the phrase, by itself, is false.

 

What's the point of being stronger? It seems that being stronger is only good if your intent is to dominate the weaker or to outlast the weaker. However if good life or wisdom is your goal, then being stronger seems to be pointless, no? In that case, how is being stronger related to mastery? Should we revise our understanding of what the master is?

[11:33]

If you are a kung-fu master then you are stronger than the student. It shows you have skill.

[goldisheavy]

If you are a kung-fu master then you are stronger than the student. It shows you have skill.

 

If you are stronger, it means you can overpower someone weaker without skill. On the other hand, if you are weaker than your opponent and yet you can somehow overpower your opponent anyway, then you have skill.

[11:33]

If you are stronger, it means you can overpower someone weaker without skill. On the other hand, if you are weaker than your opponent and yet you can somehow overpower your opponent anyway, then you have skill.

In kung-fu internal strength IS a skill. It's semantics. Why the need to nitpick semantics?

[goldisheavy]

In kung-fu internal strength IS a skill. It's semantics. Why the need to nitpick semantics?

 

That's not really true. Kung-fu has many styles, and in some strength is just strength how we understand it day to day. It means you can stand on your finger or do 20 pull ups. Just plain old strength.

 

In other styles, internal strength is just skill, which is to say, the knowledge of how to maneuver and manipulate things to your advantage. In this case the master is more manipulative than the student.

 

In some ways, even not seeking to take an advantageous position can be seen as strength. I mean, not even trying to subtly manipulate anything at all, but letting things take their course. That can be seen as strength too.

 

In essence, anything at all can be seen as strength. Anything at all can also be seen as a weakness. Any virtue can be seen as a vice and any vice as a virtue. Why so? Because there is not a single thing that has even an ounce of inherent meaning.

Edited June 9, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Uncle Screwtape]

Goldisheavy,

 

I was only answering a question about where talk of Liping's immortality might have sprung from. I was making no claims for the man himself. I would never even presume to, one way or another, not having met him.

 

Richard

[erdweir]

What's the point of being stronger? It seems that being stronger is only good if your intent is to dominate the weaker or to outlast the weaker. However if good life or wisdom is your goal, then being stronger seems to be pointless, no? In that case, how is being stronger related to mastery? Should we revise our understanding of what the master is?

 

I would say strength comes from self-mastery. Being stronger than another is a side effect of "mastery" but the point isn't to win some spiritual arm wrestling contest, it's to tame the random bullshit that is incessantly churning away inside most people's psyche's, and transform the body into something that can support an evolved consciousness. You need strength to accomplish this, but not the kind of bad ass muscular macho most people associate with strength. becoming sensitive to the forces of nature and learning to ally yourself with them brings great strength, and does becoming aware of how one is manipulated by petty ego desires and fears in order to move beyond them. one can accomplish these kinds of things with great struggle and or by a cessation of struggle, either way, i would say one is "mastering" something by going through this.

 

But to get back to Wang, the book on him has allot of stories about going through these trials and learning to "master" himself. If you do get the mysterious superpowers from it and start talking about it then of course you are going to attract miracle seekers and all kinds of idiots but also people who are somehow woken up by it. Hell, the first time I saw John Chang in Ring of Fire I was astounded, I had no idea what I was watching but it really excited me. It's sensational because most of us are trained to think these kind of abilities are the stuff of fiction. My fascination with what I saw in Ring of Fire fed into my interest in Taoism and Nei Kung, not just because of the so called "supernatural" aspect of it (whatever that is supposed to be) but rather that I felt I was being shown some aspect of life that had been suppressed by the rationalistic western view of things. it showed me the whole story about western science campaigning against superstition and witchcraft was more full of shit that I had perviously imagined. But in any case one doesn't learn how to do stuff like that without gaining higher level of understanding than most will attain in life. It doesn't necessarily mean you are enlightened or immortal, but I am not going to say a priori that being immortal or enlightened, whatever that is, is totally out of the question. Having attained "mastery" just means you have gone through the effort to learn something, something rare, hard to define and difficult to understand. People call it mastery for a lack of a better word.

[WhiteTiger]

No..."master" as in mastery of Taoist alchemy, which is immortality.

 

Apparently he only teaches practices for health and wellness...which isn't alchemy.

 

I'm interested to know what Alchemical practices have you practiced or practice?

 

Often the Alchemical practices that are openly taught are just for Health and Wellness. The degree to which you take those health benefits its totally a different story.

[WhiteTiger]

In some ways, even not seeking to take an advantageous position can be seen as strength. I mean, not even trying to subtly manipulate anything at all, but letting things take their course. That can be seen as strength too.

 

OMG! BRILLIENTLY SAID!

 

Can you say it again?

 

Do you actually to a deep level understand this... Honestly?

 

If one has truly seen this to a high degree or experienced it to a high degree than honestly you can't say you understand these words. Talking to all viewers.

 

I care not weather people like you goldisheavy or want to follow you. I care not about you. but I care that these words were shared not just to me but to all.

Edited June 9, 2009 by WhiteTiger

[宁]

Raise your hand.

 

I'd like to raise my hand for one statement: sir, you s*ck.

There, I feel better.

 

L1

[Aetherous]

Often the Alchemical practices that are openly taught are just for Health and Wellness. The degree to which you take those health benefits its totally a different story.

 

I don't think those practices are real alchemy. For a good overview of real Taoist alchemy, the book Taoist Yoga by Charles Luk is nice.

 

Peace.

[WhiteTiger]

I'm interested to know what Alchemical practices have you practiced or practice?

 

I would appreciate it if answer the question.

[goldisheavy]

OMG! BRILLIENTLY SAID!

 

Can you say it again?

 

Do you actually to a deep level understand this... Honestly?

 

The term "actually" simply does not apply to any area of my life. I am empty and all my life events are empty. I don't have any actuality in me at all. I am not actually ignorant. I am not actually enlightened. I am not actually patient or actually impatient. I don't have any actualities at all. So if you want to fixate on how my character is actually, or in other words, if you would like to think that certainly goldisheavy's character is this way, or certainly that way, you will fail and you will be miserable, as I will disappoint you as long as you make conclusions about my actuality.

 

I care not about you. but I care that these words were shared not just to me but to all.

 

Excellent. I don't care about myself either, or at least, not in an ordinary sense of what it means to be myself. I want to see people empowered and internally wise. I don't like mindless idol-chasing. Having idols is good, I think, but chasing them and adulating over them is not good. Just an opinion I operate under.

 

I wish people cared about wisdom. I don't care if people care about me personally. If people cared about wisdom, I would end up having a good life among such people, even if no one knew my name.

Edited June 9, 2009 by goldisheavy

[Ken]

I don't think those practices are real alchemy. For a good overview of real Taoist alchemy, the book Taoist Yoga by Charles Luk is nice.

.

 

arr..Taoist yoga, in Chinese is called 性命法诀明指, hehe, if i get hold of a print copy I can use it as a door stopper.

[gendao]

I don't think those practices are real alchemy. For a good overview of real Taoist alchemy, the book Taoist Yoga by Charles Luk is nice.

 

Peace.

Actually, Taoist Yoga is a "good" reference book for LMP - as far as what is widely available. I think seandenty has made this point before.

[Aetherous]

arr..Taoist yoga, in Chinese is called 性命法诀明指, hehe, if i get hold of a print copy I can use it as a door stopper. laugh.gif

 

I don't know Chinese...but yeah, good luck with your health and wellness exercises, Ken.

[goldisheavy]

I'd like to raise my hand for one statement: sir, you s*ck.

There, I feel better.

 

L1

 

I hope you can say this to God too, and to all the masters combined. If you can, you are my hero. Let goldisheavy only be a starting point for you. Don't stop there. Keep going! Take all the pretentious bullshit down.

[Ken]

I don't know Chinese...but yeah, good luck with your health and wellness exercises, Ken.

 

Thanks. Good luck with learning true alchemy from "Taoist Yoga". That book suits you a lot, you should practice the method in there deligently.

Edited June 9, 2009 by Ken

[Aetherous]