What do you think, Fire or Water?

[WhiteTiger]

Title says it all

 

Which do you prefer Fire or Water, both, a combination or even interchanging.

 

Please explain.

 

I would love to hear detailed explainations of why people choose what they choose.

 

I may add my own knowledge on the subject and give agruments for both sides but I'm also looking to learn stuff. I'm really interested in learning something as well as sharing!

 

Please feel free to post your thoughts .

[Andrei]

Naturally like attracts the like, and in reality opposites repel not attract, so

the Fire people are attracted by Fire methods because of the easiness of their expression, and Water people are attracted by Water methods, when in reality they should do the reverse, they should overcome the first impulse of repelling, and they should get out the comfort area and do the opposite of what they are naturally attracted to do.

 

For example I am a Water person and almost all my practices were Water method, but I found that from alchemical point of view this is wrong, so I had to switch to Fire methods in order to balance the alchemical elements.

 

When Fire and Water are balanced either through natural expression or practice/struggle they should be practiced together in balance until is reach the Neutral state

[ryansmith]

I need both. When I'm too firey and yang, I need some yin to cool me off. When I am too yin(which is almost never) I need some more yang. And steam I can relate a lot to what you are talking about. I am naturally a fire person and it takes a lot more to get me yin. But it is a good thing and I feel much more balanced when I do yin practices.

[DalTheJigsaw123]

I pick water.

[Aetherous]

Are we talking about styles of practice...elements in the body...metaphors for something...?

 

I prefer to discuss fire and water as elements in the body. And with that you can't just have one.

[goldisheavy]

Title says it all

 

Which do you prefer Fire or Water, both, a combination or even interchanging.

 

Please explain.

 

I would love to hear detailed explainations of why people choose what they choose.

 

I may add my own knowledge on the subject and give agruments for both sides but I'm also looking to learn stuff. I'm really interested in learning something as well as sharing!

 

Please feel free to post your thoughts .

 

I tend to use more Fire, but Water is very good and useful and I prefer it in many cases. Fire is good to demolish things, to increase activity, to agitate something, to purify something, and so on. Water is good to sooth something, to slow down activity, to pacify, to give gravity to something without making it stiff like Earth or Metal, etc.

 

So if you have inflammation, or someone else has it, the symbol that I use for emergency is watery in nature (it's not necessarily Water itself). It also depends what level I want to heal the inflammation at. At the level of the body, maybe Water is perfect. At a deeper level I would focus on kindness or softness, which is watery in my mind. I prefer to focus as deeply as possible, since I believe that the flesh is just the outermost layer of manifestation cake, so I don't heal that. I heal at the level of the crust and wait for it to propagate. At the same time, if there is an emergency, you cannot afford to wait for the healing to propagate and you need to control the symptom right away. For explicit immediate control, I use more explicit and more concrete/reified symbols -- but those can be dangerous since they are micro-managing phenomena, and micro-managing is almost always bad in my view. For long term implicit control I use very abstract symbols like kindness or softness or even something more abstract than that, which cannot even be put into words.

 

Fire is good when you have some opinions that are stuck and need to be dissolved. But fire is dangerous because if you get too excited about using it, it's very easy to burn yourself up inside. For example, if you are cold and you want to be warm, instead of fire I may focus on feeling good. Feeling good is the end-state, unlike Fire which would be an antidote to cold. Putting yourself directly into an end state is safer than using an antidote, but also more difficult to manifest. One can use antidotes without having much faith, but putting yourself into an end state directly requires lots of wisdom and faith to work.

 

Just some random rambling. I am still learning these things.

Edited June 11, 2009 by goldisheavy

[WhiteTiger]

Are we talking about styles of practice...elements in the body...metaphors for something...?

 

I prefer to discuss fire and water as elements in the body. And with that you can't just have one.

 

Its really funny you mention this.

 

I was hoping to talk in terms of Yin and Yang, Elements or weather its 8 trigrams. Weather its done through macrocosms or microcosms or interestingly enough we could talk about it in the way of Fire method or water methods. Which the methods themselves are very interestingly enough a great discussion within themselves already!

 

Thank you for the post Goldisheavy.

 

Peace,

wt

[Pietro]

Title says it all

 

Which do you prefer Fire or Water, both, a combination or even interchanging.

 

Please explain.

 

I would love to hear detailed explainations of why people choose what they choose.

 

I may add my own knowledge on the subject and give agruments for both sides but I'm also looking to learn stuff. I'm really interested in learning something as well as sharing!

 

Please feel free to post your thoughts .

 

Let me start by saying that when people speak about Fire or Water they mostly make a confusion.

 

People think a practice is a Fire practice, or Water practice depending what kind of practice it is. As if there was something inerently different in one kind of practice than in the other. And in a sense there is, and so the people are right. But also there isn't because as it has been pointed out multiple times there is actually a continuous of practices with many practices in between. And the same practice being in different places depending on the modus operandi on which it is done.

 

So, what I want to explain here is that the division is not so much a modal division, but an historical, traditional division. It has more to do with traditions, and sub traditions, than with practices. And of course each tradition has specific practices, and they fit in different ways. And some times the very same practice is being used in different traditions, in different ways. What would you say, for example, if I say that there are fire traditions that use the Inner Dissolving.

 

So the difference is more historical, but it is a fundamental difference. The water tradition is an old form of taoism, it comes from Lao Tzu (and Chuang Tzu). The Fire tradition is a more recent form of taoism. It is older than what is it normally called neo-taoism. As generally neo-taoism is considered being started around the year 900-1000. Instead this form of taoism started when Buddhism started arriving in China. I don't know exactly the dates, but an educated guess would say that around year 600 it probably was alread well on its way. So in a sense the whole neo-taoist is all fire tradition. But I am pretty sure that if you really looked close you cannot say that historically all the fire traditions are also neo taoist. For example some of the alchemical stuff was surely fire tradition. But were them neo taoist?

 

(Note the neo taoism is considered to come from the merging of buddhism, confucianism with taoism). This alchemical taoism was coming from the merging of taoism with buddhism.

 

It's a bit like making bread. You take taoism. You mix it a bit. Then you add some buddhism, and you get alchemical taoism (which is already called a fire form of taoism). Then you keep on mixing this, and then you add some more buddhism and confucianism, and you get neo taoism (Which you still call a fire tradition of taoism, i.e. a non pure form of taoism). You mix it, fold it some more. Then you add some more buddhism, and you get Ch'an Buddhism. And then you put it aside, like in Japan, let it rest, take away all the parts that hasn't mixed well, and you get zen buddhism. It's nothing difficult, it's just like bread.

 

The water tradition has a connection with philosophical concepts like spring, and water, and light green, and everything that is small and full of life. In short is the kind of taoism we have learned from reading chuang tzu.

 

But have you ever noticed how many people read lao tzu, read chuang tzu, and then do the taoist practice and wonder: what has this to do with that?

 

Now don't think that there is a war between those two types of traditions. The water traditions tend to be less well known. This generation we are having this wonderful gift of a person who is fully trained and who is permitted to teach. But this is a rare event even for the millenial tradition of original taoism. But for example there is (at least) another practitioner around here (Taoemaw) who is claiming to be learning from a water tradition, but she never released the name of her teacher.

 

For the rest you have mostly fire schools. Those are great schools, nothing to say about them.

 

And of course in those years there probably was a dialogue between those traditions. As we said, the same practice is sometimes present in both. But often either the modus operandi is different, or the goal is different, or just the context.

 

If you had to put your hand into what really distinguishes a water tradition practice respect to a non water tradition practice, is not the actual practice, but the 70% rule. A water tradition practice always follows the 70% rule.

 

And to answer Scotty, no the division water fire, in this context, is not part of a 5 element division. That also was a great cause of confusion, where people did not know about this division, and so made an educated guess which was unfortunately wrong.

 

Said all this, I fell in love with taoism when I was 16. I started practicing the fire traditions. But I really was looking for something else. When I found Bruce I was very happy to have found someone who was really teaching that form of taoism I have always been looking for. SO it was not a choise from my point of view, but more a form of recognition. I could not go back and do fire taoism more than I could go back and do the Ave Maria.

 

Of course some practices which I have integrated with me while doing the fire traditions are with me, and will always be with me.

 

 

EDIT: added a couple of paragraphs.

Edited June 11, 2009 by Pietro

[exorcist_1699]

Taoism never separates Water from Fire, what it emphasizes is the intercourse between them .Thinking that you can either cultivate the Water or Fire aspect of Taoism is absolutely wrong .

 

At post-heavenly level where TCM works , if without the intercourse between Water and Fire, never can you

have a healthy body, in fact, never can you sleep well in any night . So, at this level , there are always some intercourse, inflow and outflow between the two ends ; the Taiji inside us is turning day by day ...thinking that spirit is always at one end is illusory....

 

But what is more important is what the so-called Genuine Water and Fire at the pre-heavenly level . Yet without

Genuine Earth , post-heavenly Water and Fire can't be consolidated and upgraded to a new level , and ,it is the intercourse between Genuine Water and Fire that leads us to everlasting health and beauty.

[sheng zhen]

Taoism never separates Water from Fire, what it emphasizes is the intercourse between them .Thinking that you can either cultivate the Water or Fire aspect of Taoism is absolutely wrong .

 

At post-heavenly level where TCM works , if without the intercourse between Water and Fire, never can you

have a healthy body, in fact, never can you sleep well in any night . So, at this level , there are always some intercourse, inflow and outflow between the two ends ; the Taiji inside us is turning day by day ...thinking that spirit is always at one end is illusory....

 

But what is more important is what the so-called Genuine Water and Fire at the pre-heavenly level . Yet without

Genuine Earth , post-heavenly Water and Fire can't be consolidated and upgraded to a new level , and ,it is the intercourse between Genuine Water and Fire that leads us to everlasting health and beauty.

Very very interesting! Could you explaing a little more about Genuine Earth and why that is needed for Genuine Fire and Water? And what is the difference between fire and water and Genuine fire and water?

[Pietro]

Taoism never separates Water from Fire, what it emphasizes is the intercourse between them .Thinking that you can either cultivate the Water or Fire aspect of Taoism is absolutely wrong .

 

This is correct. Every school of Taoism always cultivates all the elements. But no one in this thread suggested otherwise. What we are discussing is the way to cultivate, not what we are cultivating.

 

What you are presenting is really good.

Can you tell us your school? It sounds like Quanzhen, is that correct?

 

Best Regards,

Pietro

[exorcist_1699]

Very very interesting! Could you explaing a little more about Genuine Earth and why that is needed for Genuine Fire and Water? And what is the difference between fire and water and Genuine fire and water?

It is the sinking of our spirit (post-heavenly Fire) and the rising of jing and qi (post-heavenly Water )from the lower abdomen ,their intercourse that makes our sleep possible .Overusing our mind or having too much sex always undermine this process , therefore leads to sleepless night.

 

Yet the most that an intercourse between Post-heavenly Fire and Water can give us is an energetic face after a good sleep, it can't grant us the privilege of forever youth ; it is the intercourse between pre-heavenly Fire and Water that makes it possible. However, it requires Genuine Earth's help to accomplish .

 

Genuine Earth is in fact Genuine Intention(真意), a state of mind deeper and higher than just being peaceful and mindless : after an abrupt awakening from chaos , you find your mind absolutely clear and consolidated,your hearing absolutely calm and seemingly noiseless, your breathing stop, your whole body's energy consolidated .... In that case, you start to understand how a Genuine Mind ( Genuine Fire) can be so different from a daily trivial mind and how it gives rise to another state of consolidated jing and qi (Genuine Water) , so vivid and delicate ...

 

Genuine Earth is also a pre-condition for grasping pre-heavenly qi from outside, as Master Zhang Zhi Yang of the South School said: " 真土擒真铅" .

 

 

 

Can you tell us your school? It sounds like Quanzhen, is that correct?

 

Best Regards,

Pietro

 

Although the North School ( QuanZhen) is said to be emphasizing or starting from nourishing spirit/ upper dantian/ single cultivation , and the South school is said to be emphasizing or starting from refining jing/ lower dantian/ dual cultivation ,the common aim of both Schools is the same : first the intercourse between post-heavenly Water and Fire , then between Genuine Water and Fire.

Edited June 11, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[sheng zhen]

It is the sinking of our spirit (post-heavenly Fire) and the rising of jing and qi (post-heavenly Water )from the lower abdomen ,their intercourse that makes our sleep possible .Overusing our mind or having too much sex always undermine this process , therefore leads to sleepless night.

 

Yet the most that an intercourse between Post-heavenly Fire and Water can give us is an energetic face after a good sleep, it can't grant us the privilege of forever youth ; it is the intercourse between pre-heavenly Fire and Water that makes it possible. However, it requires Genuine Earth's help to accomplish .

 

Genuine Earth is in fact Genuine Intention(真意), a state of mind deeper and higher than just being peaceful and mindless : after an abrupt awakening from chaos , you find your mind absolutely clear and consolidated,your hearing absolutely calm and seemingly noiseless, your breathing stop, your whole body's energy consolidated .... In that case, you start to understand how a Genuine Mind ( Genuine Fire) can be so different from a daily trivial mind and how it gives rise to another state of consolidated jing and qi (Genuine Water) , so vivid and delicate ...

 

Genuine Earth is also a pre-condition for grasping pre-heavenly qi from outside, as Master Zhang Zhi Yang of the South School said: " 真土擒真铅" .

Although the North School ( QuanZhen) is said to be emphasizing or starting from nourishing spirit/ upper dantian/ single cultivation , and the South school is said to be emphasizing or starting from refining jing/ lower dantian/ dual cultivation ,the common aim of both Schools is the same : first the intercourse between post-heavenly Water and Fire , then between Genuine Water and Fire.

Thanks Exorcist! I knew there was something more to Kan and Li than just visualizing fire and water together in the stomach This was the level of Kan and Li I have been searching for in taoism for over a year now. Now Im at peace Thank you so much! The only thing left now is the actual work of doing it...

[WhiteTiger]

Although the North School ( QuanZhen) is said to be emphasizing or starting from nourishing spirit/ upper dantian/ single cultivation , and the South school is said to be emphasizing or starting from refining jing/ lower dantian/ dual cultivation ,the common aim of both Schools is the same : first the intercourse between post-heavenly Water and Fire , then between Genuine Water and Fire.

 

I would have to definately agree with you here.

 

Although it seems to be a very common misconception that the South School often requires the opposite sex to do duel cultivation which is far from the truth. A big misconception and an issue not addressing peoples desires or attachments, which can often times be the key target to Buddhism. Although please keep in mind so many teachings of Buddhism, so many types, so many intentions from the Monks and even teachers.

[exorcist_1699]

Does it mean the Buddhist way can ignore the Water aspect , or escaping from the road of Yin and Yang ? I do not think so .Escaping the Water aspect only means you have a "master" who sits there with a big abdomen, a pair of glasses stuck on his nose and a wrinkled face , yet still claiming that he himself is nourishing some kind of everlasting spirit . In fact, thinking that nourishing our spirit yet without some effect on our body is nonsense.

 

If you can't fight against aging at every moment of your life, try getting eternity at every "now" , how can we believe that some other moment or in afterlife , you can attain some form of eternity ? This is the reason why Taoists always think that physical eternity is somehow important .

 

On the other hand , there are some people who like philosophical Taoism a lot yet think that a philosophical interpretation of their life/ world is enough. They are people who go into a goldmine , find it very pretty and praise it but without bringing some piece of ore out when they leave .

Edited June 12, 2009 by exorcist_1699

[WhiteTiger]

On the other hand , there are some people who like philosophical Taoism a lot yet think that a philosophical interpretation of their life/ world is enough. They are people who go into a goldmine , find it very pretty and praise it but without bringing some piece of ore out when they leave .

How unfortunate.

[exorcist_1699]

How unfortunate.

 

 

These unfortunate people are not really indifferent to eternal life and beauty , but are entangled by their life and their culture , which makes their mind shallow , thinking that earthly eternity is impossible .

 

Never do they really believe in the power of their spirit ; maybe they are good at praying to their gods/ God ,but they are weak in nourishing a closer MIND, a much bigger MIND from inside . Maybe they are good at handling symbols, formula, nuts and bolts , yet they are weak in handling emptiness , nourishing something out of its complicated layers.

[Creation]

Pietro,

 

I have some comments on your historical analysis. What I have read is slightly different from what you are claiming.

 

Let me preface things with an excerpt from an article by Frank Allen called Release to Freedom from Bruce's website:

"The Taoist Fire Method practices were developed in the second century BCE within the Neo-Taoist era best exemplified by the Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove. The failure of the Taoist Yellow Turban Rebellion made it necessary for Taoism to remain unnoticed by local officials. Public displays of Taoism comprised of artwork and individual practices. Taoist Water Method practices come from China's Age of Philosophers in the sixth century BCE. This was the era of Confucius and Lao Tze. Neither of their teachings had coalesced into actual schools of philosophy or organized religions, but their teachings were revered by all. Even in the midst of chaotic and warring political times, all aspects of daily life moved at a slow and steady pace, like the ox carts that moved the nation. The energetic and spiritual practices of this time period reflect this pace, and in doing so, have become the safe and gentle way to health and human evolution."

 

So from what I can tell, what you call Fire Method was full blown by the time of the Seven Sages, which was the Third Century CE, and moreover, this is the period when new philosophical schools started popping up combing Huang-Lao teachings with Buddhism and Confucianism (Buddhism came to China officially in the First Century CE, although there might have been some earlier streams in the first and second centuries BCE), and when the External Alchemy treatises first started popping up. Now, according to the definitions I can find, this is precisely Neo-Taoism, and the dates given are 3rd and 4th centuries CE. Moreover, something that puzzles me is that Sifu Allen states that Fire Methods begin developing in the Second Century BCE. But Buddhism had not yet come to China at that point, or at least not made any significant inroads. Perhaps it is a typo and he meant CE. But that would imply that either there is no historical distinction between the Fire Schools and Neo Taoism. If it was not a typo, Fire Traditions were not a product of Buddhist influence.

 

By the way, why do you say alchemical Taoism is the union of Taoism and Buddhism? Certainly you don't mean external alchemy, but as for internal alchemy, jing-chi-shen-wu-tao is part of the water method, right? Where was the Buddhist influence? Purely in techniques / philosophy of practice?

 

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

-Tyler

 

[edited many times for clarity]

Edited June 13, 2009 by Creation

[Pietro]

Pietro,

 

I have some comments on your historical analysis. What I have read is slightly different from what you are claiming.

 

Let me preface things with an excerpt from an article by Frank Allen called Release to Freedom from Bruce's website:

"The Taoist Fire Method practices were developed in the second century BCE within the Neo-Taoist era best exemplified by the Seven Sages of the Bamboo Grove. The failure of the Taoist Yellow Turban Rebellion made it necessary for Taoism to remain unnoticed by local officials. Public displays of Taoism comprised of artwork and individual practices. Taoist Water Method practices come from China's Age of Philosophers in the sixth century BCE. This was the era of Confucius and Lao Tze. Neither of their teachings had coalesced into actual schools of philosophy or organized religions, but their teachings were revered by all. Even in the midst of chaotic and warring political times, all aspects of daily life moved at a slow and steady pace, like the ox carts that moved the nation. The energetic and spiritual practices of this time period reflect this pace, and in doing so, have become the safe and gentle way to health and human evolution."

 

So from what I can tell, what you call Fire Method was full blown by the time of the Seven Sages, which was the Third Century CE, and moreover, this is the period when new philosophical schools started popping up combing Huang-Lao teachings with Buddhism and Confucianism (Buddhism came to China officially in the First Century CE, although there might have been some earlier streams in the first and second centuries BCE), and when the External Alchemy treatises first started popping up. Now, according to the definitions I can find, this is precisely Neo-Taoism, and the dates given are 3rd and 4th centuries CE. Moreover, something that puzzles me is that Sifu Allen states that Fire Methods begin developing in the Second Century BCE. But Buddhism had not yet come to China at that point, or at least not made any significant inroads. Perhaps it is a typo and he meant CE. But that would imply that either there is no historical distinction between the Fire Schools and Neo Taoism. If it was not a typo, Fire Traditions were not a product of Buddhist influence.

 

By the way, why do you say alchemical Taoism is the union of Taoism and Buddhism? Certainly you don't mean external alchemy, but as for internal alchemy, jing-chi-shen-wu-tao is part of the water method, right? Where was the Buddhist influence? Purely in techniques / philosophy of practice?

 

Your thoughts would be appreciated.

-Tyler

 

[edited many times for clarity]

 

Dear Tyler,

 

you are quite correct, the history of Taoism that we recover from inside Bruce tradition is slighty different than the history of taoism that the academic world has reached consensus (or semi-consensus).

 

There are various points on which the two version of taoist history diverge.

(The two versions being the history of taoism as it is passed on inside Bruce tradition, and the history of taoism as it is being told-recovered by modern academic analysis).

The first point is where did the Tao Te Ching come from.

According to modern analysis, the tao te ching was a book generated by a series of teachers who passed it on, until it got frozen into modern day tao te ching. The freezing process took about 100 years, and we do find several versions of the tao te ching buried away in tombs, and the earliest version are slightly different, and then eventually they reach the final version.

Another analysis says that the tao te ching was produced by a single philosopher, Lao Tzu.

Note that, if I remember correctly this was the version that the Chinese intelligenzia (read the confucianists in power) gave to the first missionaries with a not so hidden agenda of separating the practices that could be seen around from the old philosopher.

The we have the religious taoist who deify Lao Tzu.

And then the Buddhist version for which Lao Tzu is a bodhisatva.

 

And now let's look at Bruce version:

Lao Tzu existed, it was part of a meditative tradition. He was the chief librarian, and had considerable power. He then left everything, and as a final act of compassion pretended he was forced to write his book (while he could have just shrudded off the student), and then left.

 

we have a few things over here. The first element we have is that Lao Tzu is part of an existing tradition. And the tradition is said to be go back for thousands of years. Can you see the connection with the modern version, that out of an analysis of the text, and of the various versions reached the conclusion that the TTC was the common effort of various masters. If there was such a tradition, you have the natural container for those masters. If there is no such tradition it becomes hard to find out where do those masters come from.

 

So here you have the first division between the academic history of taoism, and Bruce' tradition history of taoism. In the first case you do not have a tradition that is coexisting with Lao Tzu, in the other you do.

 

Why is this important? Because Bruce claims to be coming from this very tradition.

 

Is Bruce right?

 

Interestingly we have another text around. And this text was not read by Bruce. This text is the Nei Yeh. Now the Nei Yeh have been translated by Harold Roth from Brown University. And Hal analysis was that the Nei Yeh was an ancient text from a taoist mystical tradition which probably predates the Tao Te Ching. Interestingly the Nei Yeh has interesting meditations inside about stillness, and emptyness.

 

Think about those results, especially in relation to Bruce tradition.

 

Interestingly if you read the nei yeh you find references, and meditations that are very similar to Bruce ones. Look at this, for example:

Within the mind there is yet another mind.

That mind within the mind: it is an awareness that precedes words.

Only after there is awareness does it take shape;

Only after it takes shape it there a word.

Only after there is a word is it implemented;

Only after it is implemented is there order.

Without order, you will always be chaotic.

If chaotic, you die.

Do you remember hearing Bruce speak about the mind within the mind? Well, for what I know (and I am quite sure about this) Bruce never read the Nei Yeh.

 

Now this still does not tells us that it has come to us through the millenia directly. The Nei Yeh was buried inside some confucianists texts, and Liu have pretty surely read it. But still it is quite impressive.

 

Also consider that many people seem to think that all the silent and meditative practices in taoism come from buddhism. While here you have a text, older than the tao te ching, with direct teachings about the mind.

 

So if we agree that indeed there was a tradition from which the tao te ching came from, the question is now when did the fire tradition come from.

 

Now, you are correct to point out that there was alchemy even before the arrival of buddhism. But my understanding is that the way to do it was different. In the water way you only do alchemy once you are a human being, that is once you have merged all your spirits into a single unit, and you are one thing. And you do this by dissolving everything which is not you, until all remains is you. At that point you do alchemy, because there isn't much more you can do. You have already dissolved all there was to dissolve. SO now you need to transform what has remained.

 

This is a different process from those practitioners who start by transforming (think at the six healing sounds, for example, transform saddness into braveness, ...).

 

Note, I just spoke with Alan, and he noted how TCM as presented in the Classic of Internal Medicine includes some alchemy. I do not know on the spot what he is refering to, so I just repeat it.

 

SO the answer is that I do not know when exactly did the water tradition gave birth to the fire tradition. According to Bruce: "when the buddhist arrived ..., at that point to distinguish the new tradition to the old tradition they started calling one the water tradition and the other the fire tradition. And no, they were not fire and water as part of the 5 elements cycle. Just fire and water. It does not mean that there is a wood, an earth and a metal tradition out there".

 

To be able to track how the buddhist have influenced taoism, I would have to know more about buddhism, which I do not at the moment.

 

But do pay attention, because generally the term neo-taoism is kept for the tradition that appears when all three the tradition merged, not just taoism and buddhism. This is another little quirk on Burce history of taoism. When does neo-taoism starts.

 

And finally the last really big incongruence is that according to everybody Bruce tradition should have been disappeared long time ago. If you speak with Hal Roth (I did, although I don't remember word by word what we said), they will probably tell you that yes there might have been a tradition out there at the times of lao Tzu, but that tradition surely must have died in the last 2000 years.

 

And yet Bruce has not studied the ancient texts, and teaches their meditations, claims to be teaching from that tradition, and tells us an history of taoism which is a bit different, but that might contain some elements that we have not yet recovered. Like the fact that there was a tradition around Lao Tzu.

 

I hope this helped.

Pietro

[awake]

religiously; no pref.

 

if I could control one it would be water of course because firstly I'm cancer, second water is more destructive in large quanitieis, and can do good too, can put out fire, be made into ice and used that way.

 

And I could end world thirst.

Edited June 14, 2009 by awake

[Guest allan]

The ancient masters follow the Stillness method and so do Quanzhen. (Read the Keeping Still hexagram in the Book of Changes) Claiming that Quanzhen and all Neo Daoists follow the Active method is mere speculation by whoever.