Integral Taoism. Heaven / The I Dimension

[shenchi]

[Creation]

Hi Shenchi. Welcome to The Tao Bums!

 

Thanks for the awesome article. It filled in a lot of the things that Frantzis left out of his books (which I am a huge fan of BTW).

 

I would like to pick your brain a bit if you will permit me.

 

How does the progression of through the eight energy bodies relate to the alchemical progression jing, qi, shen, wu, tao? I.e. how (if at all) do the stages of practice in each system correspond?

 

There is some correspondence between the anatomy of the physical and energetic bodies. Does this correspondence continue in the higher bodies? Indeed, how would you describe the "anatomy" of the higher bodies? Are they too subtle for that notion to apply? Or do they have channels and gates and "organs" too?

 

It is one thing to make correspondences between the bodies and the trigrams based on similarities of description (which could be done in many ways, I suppose, like maybe body is Earth, Tao is Heaven, and for the in-between follow the King Wen arrangement). So there must be something deeper about the particular correspondences you listed. How deep do the correspondences really go? How does one really apply the correspondences? For example, do the eight palm changes in ba gua have some special relationship with their respective bodies?

 

I look forward to the day when I can experience all these things myself. But alas, I can only ask others at this point.

 

Once again, welcome and thanks for the article.

 

Best regards,

Tyler

[sheng zhen]

Very nice article Shenchi!

 

There is one thing I'd like to point out regarding our personal evolution through these levels. We can experience every different state through meditation and inner work, but to actually stabilize in one of the higher states is extremely difficult. Ken Wilber have said that people hardly really stabilize in more than one or at most two levels higher than what they are born into. Most people need hundreds of lifetimes just to evolve to the next level. So when doing meditation and exepriencing these wonderful states of consciousness, we are easily fooled to believe we have attained something high level. While in reality it is just a limited experience and we will soon enough fade back to our stabilized level.

 

I do believe the age old jing-qi-shen framework is Integral allready long before Ken Wilber presented his thoughts

 

Creation. In the way I have learned to work with these bodies we see every body with the same anatomy. Its a fractal system where everything is contained in everthing. Like a hologram. Every little piece contains the whole. So no matter how subtle it gets, you still have the chakras, auras, channels, meridians, levels, etc.

[shenchi]

Sheng,

Thanks for responding. I agree with everything you said; especially the part about Taoism being integral long before Wilber. I would like to add something to what you said about state changes. In Taoist Internal Alchemy one works mainly with the energies of Kan and Li or Water and Fire. Water represents cyclical change, the tide comes and goes and the rain comes and goes, Water represents this change. Fire is permanent change since once something is burned in the fire it will never return to its original way of being. To me Water represents state change where Fire represents permanent stage devlopment. So within Taoist Inernal Alchemy there is a tempering of state change with permanent change. This is part of the reason why I love Taoist Internal Alchemy so much.

 

Anyway Sheng thanks again for responding and I look forward to hearing more from you in the future. Until then,

 

Peace & Tao

Shenchi

 

Very nice article Shenchi!

 

There is one thing I'd like to point out regarding our personal evolution through these levels. We can experience every different state through meditation and inner work, but to actually stabilize in one of the higher states is extremely difficult. Ken Wilber have said that people hardly really stabilize in more than one or at most two levels higher than what they are born into. Most people need hundreds of lifetimes just to evolve to the next level. So when doing meditation and exepriencing these wonderful states of consciousness, we are easily fooled to believe we have attained something high level. While in reality it is just a limited experience and we will soon enough fade back to our stabilized level.

 

I do believe the age old jing-qi-shen framework is Integral allready long before Ken Wilber presented his thoughts

 

Creation. In the way I have learned to work with these bodies we see every body with the same anatomy. Its a fractal system where everything is contained in everthing. Like a hologram. Every little piece contains the whole. So no matter how subtle it gets, you still have the chakras, auras, channels, meridians, levels, etc.

[sheng zhen]

Very interesting thoughts about Kan and Li. Thank you

[shenchi]

Tyler,

Thanks for responding. You asked a lot of very difficult questions in that short response. Some of what you asked no one knows for sure, but I will try to answer at least some of your questions the best I can based on my own practice and experience and what has been imparted on me by my teachers. Taoism is a vast belief system and has so many sects and many different ways of looking at and mapping reality; so what I say may not aline with every school of Taoism. Just wanted to clear that up before I started rambling.

 

Ok so lets start with the idea of physical and energetic anatomy. From my understanding the anatomy of the body is energetic anatomy just at its most dense expression. This suggests that the more subtle anatomy would continue outward as an extension of that anatomy, it's just as that it gets more and more subtle as it goes. I like to think of energy as electro magnetic fields. These fields surround each atom, each cell, each organ and so on. Now our subtle anatomy expands out past our skin in a kind of egg which many people know as the aura. Within the Taoist practices in which I engage one begins by becoming away of every aspect of the physical anatomy, then expands that awareness out to their aura. Then one works to expand the field out to encapsulate the Earth, then the solar system, then outward to the stars, then to encompass the whole of the universe.

 

What I think is going on is first becoming aware of the body, then the personal Qi field. Then there is a harmonizing or resonating of the personal energy field with the Qi field of Earth. By doing this one opens their awareness and identity of the self into ever expanding fields of inclusive awareness. Now those fields are always there and we are always connected to them it's just as we get beyond our personal field we move into more communal fields of energy. It's all connected. My experience is that the meridians and points on my body, and my organs actually connect to planets and stars and other people and the earth. They are like umbilicuses that move through the fields connecting all things and exchanging information. In higher Internal Alchemical work there is actually a sort of energetic communication between the self and natural and celestial bodies. It's hard to explain but it's like the awareness is expanded through the field until it encompasses a tree, or a mountain, or body of water, or the Earth, or the Sun. Then a vibration is felt in the corresponding physical Anatomy. This vibration is a tone and on this tone is carried information and energy. The energy is stored and the information.... well it's like downloading a program and it takes time to figure the program out and put it to proper use. I have never experienced the information as words, mainly just feelings, and images, and awarenesses, but it's always abstract and never a direct command or explanation. It's like my Qi field comes into harmonic resonance with the object and seems to take on some of it's energetic qualities for a short period of time. Like tapping into it's morphogenetic field and accessing information stored there. Anyway it's something that needs to be experienced, it's hard to totally explain what's going on, I just know the experiences themselves can be quite blissful and enlightening.

 

You had mentioned about Jing, Qi, Shen, Wu, Tao. I would like to add a piece to that line up then explain how it correlates with the energy bodies that I mentioned in the article. Jing is the physical body and the energy of that body, Qi is the more subtle body, in this mapping system Qi represents the etheric body as well as the emotional body, then there is the one I want to add: Yi. Yi is intention and is associated with the thinking mind so it is also associated with the thinking body. Shen is associated also with the mind but more with awareness so there is a slight crossover of the thinking body, but the Shen (in this system) is mainly associated with the Psychic body. Wu is emptyness and as you may recall I mentioned that the causal body is associated with emptyness. Next is Tao, to me this is a two parter, the Body of Individuality is where one realizes or identifies ones self with the Tao, the Body of the Tao is where that realization is poored back through all those other layers until it can be expressed through the physical body and into the world at large.

 

Now as far as the 8 trigrams go there are definite correlations between the 8 palm changes of Ba Gua and the 8 energy bodies. And yes those palm changes can be used to reach or activate those higher fields of awareness. The only problem is you need the proper form and the proper teacher to help show you how. Most people doing Ba Gua are doing it only for the health or martial aspects. Unless you have someone who knows how to use the form as a vehicle for accessing those bodies, chances are you will never reach that level. It's the same for any meditation system, just sitting and breathing is not enough you need a teacher to guide you through the process.

 

Anyway I hope that answers some of your questions, it's hard to explain so much in a short post so what I have left you is the briefest and most general of explanations. If you want more detail or have anything you need clarified please feel free to ask. Until then,

 

Peace & Tao

Shenchi

 

 

Hi Shenchi. Welcome to The Tao Bums!

 

Thanks for the awesome article. It filled in a lot of the things that Frantzis left out of his books (which I am a huge fan of BTW).

 

I would like to pick your brain a bit if you will permit me.

 

How does the progression of through the eight energy bodies relate to the alchemical progression jing, qi, shen, wu, tao? I.e. how (if at all) do the stages of practice in each system correspond?

 

There is some correspondence between the anatomy of the physical and energetic bodies. Does this correspondence continue in the higher bodies? Indeed, how would you describe the "anatomy" of the higher bodies? Are they too subtle for that notion to apply? Or do they have channels and gates and "organs" too?

 

It is one thing to make correspondences between the bodies and the trigrams based on similarities of description (which could be done in many ways, I suppose, like maybe body is Earth, Tao is Heaven, and for the in-between follow the King Wen arrangement). So there must be something deeper about the particular correspondences you listed. How deep do the correspondences really go? How does one really apply the correspondences? For example, do the eight palm changes in ba gua have some special relationship with their respective bodies?

 

I look forward to the day when I can experience all these things myself. But alas, I can only ask others at this point.

 

Once again, welcome and thanks for the article.

 

Best regards,

Tyler

[Creation]

Anyway I hope that answers some of your questions, it's hard to explain so much in a short post so what I have left you is the briefest and most general of explanations. If you want more detail or have anything you need clarified please feel free to ask.

Yes this helps a lot. I get the feeling that it wouldn't be too much easier even with more words because I have to experience it myself (that whole "The Tao that can be told of..." thing ) so I won't press you further at this point. Really, thanks a lot. This is really interesting information.

 

So who are your teachers? Frank Allen and Tina Zhang I see from your site. I assume you have studied with B.K. Frantzis as well, or did you just get his stuff from Sifu Allen?. Anyone else?

Edited June 14, 2009 by Creation

[shenchi]

Tyler,

Yes Frank Allen is my main teacher. I have not studied with Franztis simply because I find he is way over priced. Master Frank studied with Franztis for 25 years and was his first Ba Gua student certified to teach his system. I also find Frank is much more open and willing to give upper level teachings for an affordable price. Also Master Frank is one of Frantzis's only students to have study privately with him about his lineages belief in the after life and how to use meditation in during and after death. I have studied with many other teachers but I have mainly been using Frantis's Ba Gua as it is taught by Master Frank. I also use Frank's Alchemy system that he developed based on Frantzis's Ba Gua and Michael Winn/ Mantak Chia's Alchemy. I have reinforced that with actually studying Winn's material and putting it inside the Ba Gua Zhang. The thing that I love about Ba Gua Zhang is that it can become the vehicle for every type of Taoist practice you can think of. All the internal aspects of any Taoist practice can easily be slipped into Ba Gua and thus it becomes the vehicle that you drive along the path with. I have studied with many other people and many other systems but what I mainly use now is what I have learned from Frank Allen and Michael Winn. I highly recommend both teachers, both are affordable and both really know their stuff.

 

Anyway thanks again for responding and I look forward to hearing from you in the future. Until then,

 

Peace & Tao

Shenchi

 

 

 

Yes this helps a lot. I get the feeling that it wouldn't be too much easier even with more words because I have to experience it myself (that whole "The Tao that can be told of..." thing ) so I won't press you further at this point. Really, thanks a lot. This is really interesting information.

 

So who are your teachers? Frank Allen and Tina Zhang I see from your site. I assume you have studied with B.K. Frantzis as well, or did you just get his stuff from Sifu Allen?. Anyone else?

[JessOBrien]

Hi Shenchi,

 

Did you write the above article, or did Frank? Just curious, it's well written.

 

I'd like to post it over on the yahoo group Taoist Water Tradition where we discuss Kumar's system. http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/TaoistWaterTradition/ Let me know if that's cool with you.

 

I like to study Kumar's system, it's good stuff. Me and my friends practice it a lot.

 

If you are ever out on the West coast come get with us! We've learned a lot from Frank over the years, he is an awesome teacher and one hell of a good friend.

 

Sincerely,

 

Jess O'Brien

[longrhythm]

[resonance]

[tao stillness]

Anyone know the lineage of Tina Zhang's new Three Treasures Qigong?

Even if a current Qigong master creates their own form, it is my experience that it can be very effective and just as healing as those from long family lineages. Great Grand Master Kellen Chia in Australia and his own Immortal Ten Qigong is just one example. If someone has a high enough level of chi, they can create a qigong form he told me.