Gauging a local 'master' ?

[findley]

A couple so-called Tantric masters are coming into Memphis for a workshop.

 

I think I am going to meet them, and invite them to smoke a bowl with me. How can I gauge the legitimacy of their claims?

 

In tantra, (per Georg Feuerstein [sp?]) a master is gauged by his capacity to perform the supernatural... (siddhi's, I think they are called?)

 

but, I am sure these two failing the religious requisite to title of master, how else might I be able to determine the mastery of these practitioners?

[evZENy]

I've thought about that too.

I guess I would listen to what they say.

And feel the energy around them and from their eyes.

I also think a non-master will claim s/he is something and try to convince you.

Don't know. Haven't met one.

Let us know!

Edited June 11, 2009 by evZENy

[11:33]

It is TOUGH.

 

It's really hard to know.

 

I personally would search around for others who know more about the subject, and see what they think of the possible masters visiting your town. Just the way I like to check reviews online before buying things

 

Maybe go to where the Tantra people gather online and ask them about them.

[living mountain]

I've thought about that too.

I guess I would listen to what they say.

And feel the energy around them and from their eyes.

I also think a non-master will claim s/he is something and try to convince you.

Don't know. Haven't met one.

Let us know!

 

well findley,

we all know that the Bowl tells all.

a bowl is useful because it is empty, yes?

 

having met some well intentioned non-masters, i would recommend that you don't sign on, or write them off, immediately; i agree with the vibe comment- if you can sense deeper than a vibe, then use that skill. notice their health: limping? hunched?

sense of humor?

compassion?

how much fire or water is in their eyes?

is it the right amount for you/ your needs?

do they "yodafy" excessively? (no offense meant to our own Jedi..)

 

those would be places to start (from my perspective)

[Tokoyo Tama]

also, what is it that you are looking to know about them? Considering taking them on as a teacher and simply wondering how they are developed might take two very different approaches. If looking for a possible mentor or simply someone to share information with it is essential that those aspects that are underdeveloped or overdeveloped balance and harmonize with your character. I tend to over think things if I let myself, so for me I try to take measures to insure that I am not merely rationalizing someone into glory or shame. Simply noting how you feel when you are giving them your attention as opposed to when you bring yourself elsewhere could help. So, if you're listening to a lecture, think about something that you are well familiar with, or maybe do a short energy exercise that you are familiar with and you generally know how you feel (refreshed, tired, etc) and see if you feel a little different. Basically give yourself some foundation to see if you feel great around this person because you're having a great day or because their influence on you is beneficial. Just kind of making this up, but something along these lines could be useful.

 

Could also try utilizing dreams to gain insight into their nature. I can't say I'm much developed in this area, but to give a quick common sense concept just connect with their energy while laying in bed and see how your dreams compare to normal. Of course, if you've spent all day with your new love it may be difficult to ascertain what is different from having connected with the master, but if it isn't a very out of the ordinary day you might be surprised at the insights that can be gained while contemplating the content of the dream. There are some good threads on Taoist dream methods, forget the name for it.

 

Trust yourself, and learn from the Tao through the master

[thelerner]

Whether they can or not, there's no greater turn off then when a newbie asks, show me a miracle (or Siddhi).

 

I tend to judge a teacher by their students. Talk to some of them. What have they learned, what are classes/dharma like. What have they gotten out of it, what is expected from student and teacher..etc.

 

What kind of devotion and payment does the teacher expect? Do they see themselves as regular joe's or god incarnate

 

 

Michael

[Aetherous]

It's pretty much impossible to judge anyone...but their ability to perform siddhis can give you a good enough idea that they're more advanced than you, and thus have something to teach you.

[forestofclarity]

Why on earth do you think siddhis have anything to do with anything?

 

It's pretty much impossible to judge anyone...but their ability to perform siddhis can give you a good enough idea that they're more advanced than you, and thus have something to teach you.

[Ya Mu]

Memphis? The only master I have ever met in Memphis was this female bass player on beale street Just kidding!

 

I agree with the statement about the students and I totally disagree about if they can or can not do phenomena. If someone comes to me more interested in the phenomena of "what I can or cannot do" then I will not teach them the real thing until they get over that idea that the ability to do phenomena means anything whatsoever about the advancement of a teacher or themselves.

[Aetherous]

Why on earth do you think siddhis have anything to do with anything?

 

Sorry guys...I just don't care about beating around the bush anymore. Siddhis are a sign that someone is somewhat advanced. It weeds out the fake teachers, of which THERE ARE MANY.

[WhiteTiger]

Sorry guys...I just don't care about beating around the bush anymore. Siddhis are a sign that someone is somewhat advanced. It weeds out the fake teachers, of which THERE ARE MANY.

 

HAHAHA *Raises hand* I'm fake, I'm fake.

 

Alright I had my fun for today, I guess I should stop fakking around.

[Aetherous]

I am too.

[thelerner]

Sorry guys...I just don't care about beating around the bush anymore. Siddhis are a sign that someone is somewhat advanced. It weeds out the fake teachers, of which THERE ARE MANY.

 

Maybe but its a big bush. I can't help but think the 'master' who shows a new or perspective student a Siddhi is more likely a con man then genuine. Showing off miracles will get you swamped by legions looking for power and drawn into a thousand dramas. If wisdom comes with power then the true master doesn't flaunt his skills and having the curtain drawn is the reward of years of dedication.

 

Its said the true test of power is the ability to never use it.

 

So we're still left with the problem of how to guage.

 

Instead of just bottom up, we could go top, down. Find out the their reputation from respected old timers. People with unquestioned expertise who've been around the block.

 

Michael

[11:33]

Its said the true test of power is the ability to never use it.

So you got all this power and you could be helping people, and yet instead you don't use it? That doesn't seem right to me...

 

I think the true test of power is if you use it for good, and know when not to use it.

 

I'm a nitpicker though

[forestofclarity]

I'm sorry, I don't see the correlation between superpowers and wisdom. Simply stating that something is so doesn't make it so.

 

If some one spends hours at the gym and has a huge, buff body, it means nothing by way of wisdom. If some one spends hours learning nuclear physics, and can build a bomb that kills millions, it means nothing by way of wisdom. Yet, one may think that if a person can display an unusual skill, this therefore means that person has wisdom, rather than that person has simply spent time and effort on a specific skill.

 

The great Way is easy,

yet people prefer the side paths.

Be aware when things are out of balance.

Stay centered within the Tao.

 

TTC 53

 

Sorry guys...I just don't care about beating around the bush anymore. Siddhis are a sign that someone is somewhat advanced. It weeds out the fake teachers, of which THERE ARE MANY.

 

 

 

 

For every one looking for wisdom, there are 10,000 looking for the powers.

 

Shinzen Young describes the wisdom path as vertical, going from the surface to the core. The powers the describes as a horizontal approach. As one goes deeper, there is always a pull towards the horizontal, so most of us stair step.

 

Of course, one can wander horizontally forever. Also, there needs to be some development on the wisdom path to open the deeper siddhis.

 

Maybe but its a big bush. I can't help but think the 'master' who shows a new or perspective student a Siddhi is more likely a con man then genuine. Showing off miracles will get you swamped by legions looking for power and drawn into a thousand dramas. If wisdom comes with power then the true master doesn't flaunt his skills and having the curtain drawn is the reward of years of dedication.

 

Its said the true test of power is the ability to never use it.

 

So we're still left with the problem of how to guage.

 

Instead of just bottom up, we could go top, down. Find out the their reputation from respected old timers. People with unquestioned expertise who've been around the block.

 

Michael

[Ya Mu]

I'm sorry, I don't see the correlation between superpowers and wisdom. Simply stating that something is so doesn't make it so.

 

If some one spends hours at the gym and has a huge, buff body, it means nothing by way of wisdom. If some one spends hours learning nuclear physics, and can build a bomb that kills millions, it means nothing by way of wisdom. Yet, one may think that if a person can display an unusual skill, this therefore means that person has wisdom, rather than that person has simply spent time and effort on a specific skill.

 

The great Way is easy,

yet people prefer the side paths.

Be aware when things are out of balance.

Stay centered within the Tao.

 

TTC 53

 

For every one looking for wisdom, there are 10,000 looking for the powers.

 

Shinzen Young describes the wisdom path as vertical, going from the surface to the core. The powers the describes as a horizontal approach. As one goes deeper, there is always a pull towards the horizontal, so most of us stair step.

 

Of course, one can wander horizontally forever. Also, there needs to be some development on the wisdom path to open the deeper siddhis.

 

I agree. So MANY times people have come to me and asked me to do qi manipulation in order to satisfy their raw curiosity or to challenge me to see if I "was the real thing". They have no intention of really learning and it is an ego thing to challenge anyone.

 

AS everyone knows I am big on story examples so here is one for you, may have already posted before don't remember.

In my past I also thought that the seeing is believing and would help a potential student see that "this is real". One day I was in a store where one of my flyers for a workshop was posted. A girl was looking at it and then looked at me, walked up and said she was thinking of attending but wanted to first "feel the qi". So I said sure and threw qi at her. It knocked her several feet across the room in an unconscious heap. Momentarily I was stunned, then went into healer mode and projected to a "revival" point. She came out of it and was OK. But the thing was she may not have been OK and it was oh so irresponsible of me to do what I did.

 

We should NEVER do these things without a good reason. To satisfy someones curiosity or challenge Is NOT a good reason.

 

Wisdom is something that has to be pursued and has nothing whatsoever to do with phenomena.

[evZENy]

And one more support on forestofemptiness' and Ya Mu's position.

Being after the power is the wrong attitude. many examples of people who obtain them, just to end up... well - not in a nice way.

Yes, Siddhis are a sign of power. But you won't get them if they were The Goal.

I also follow a Siddhar tradition and like the introduction in "The Yoga of Siddha Boganathar" by T. N. Ganapathy

 

No contradiction for me:

A wise man may not have powers.

And a powerful man is not necessarily wise.

[Aetherous]

Forestofemptiness,

 

I'm sorry, I don't see the correlation between superpowers and wisdom. Simply stating that something is so doesn't make it so.

 

Oh, I didn't know we were looking for a wise person. I thought the question was whether they were a master of tantra or not. That's something else entirely! So I agree with you...there is no correlation between superpowers and wisdom.

 

Like Ya Mu said: "Wisdom is something that has to be pursued and has nothing whatsoever to do with phenomena."

[living mountain]

Forestofemptiness,

 

 

 

Oh, I didn't know we were looking for a wise person. I thought the question was whether they were a master of tantra or not. That's something else entirely! So I agree with you...there is no correlation between superpowers and wisdom.

 

Like Ya Mu said: "Wisdom is something that has to be pursued and has nothing whatsoever to do with phenomena."

 

[bows] thank you for this discussion, from a fly in the corner;

i am humbled by the depth of experience in the "room."

[forestofclarity]

Oh good, I'm glad I was wrong. You seem to have such a level head in these things, that it seemed out of character.

 

I assumed that by tantric, we were referring to those on the path to Enlightenment or God Realization. Words are such a tangle!

 

Forestofemptiness,

Oh, I didn't know we were looking for a wise person. I thought the question was whether they were a master of tantra or not. That's something else entirely! So I agree with you...there is no correlation between superpowers and wisdom.

 

Like Ya Mu said: "Wisdom is something that has to be pursued and has nothing whatsoever to do with phenomena."

Edited June 12, 2009 by forestofemptiness

[Mal]

I guess I would listen to what they say.

And feel the energy around them and from their eyes.

I also think a non-master will claim s/he is something and try to convince you.

 

 

i agree with the vibe comment- if you can sense deeper than a vibe, then use that skill. notice their health:

limping?

hunched?

sense of humor?

compassion?

how much fire or water is in their eyes?

is it the right amount for you/ your needs?

 

Yes, does it really matter what they "are"? IMHO it's all about how they make you feel.

[Aetherous]

Forest of emptiness,

 

Oh good, I'm glad I was wrong. You seem to have such a level head in these things, that it seemed out of character.

 

Thank you for insulting me.

 

I assumed that by tantric, we were referring to those on the path to Enlightenment or God Realization. Words are such a tangle! laugh.gif

 

We were. That has nothing to do with wisdom. Wisdom is something cultivated separately from that type of enlightenment, and results in a different kind of enlightenment when taken to its end.

[Vajrahridaya]

Yes, does it really matter what they "are"? IMHO it's all about how they make you feel.

 

That can also be a powerful obstacle based upon previous karmas and the siddhi of charisma.

[forestofclarity]

Insults may be taken, but in this case not given. I was being literal, not ironic.

 

Different types of enlightenment? This sounds interesting. Care to explain?

 

Forest of emptiness,

Thank you for insulting me.

We were. That has nothing to do with wisdom. Wisdom is something cultivated separately from that type of enlightenment, and results in a different kind of enlightenment when taken to its end.

[Aetherous]

See the topic Enlightenment, in depth.

 

I believe the Buddhist type of enlightenment has to do with wisdom, and differs from other kinds of enlightenment or realization. The definition of enlightenment xabir and I came to in that topic shows how it differs. I think that has to do with something we can call ultimate wisdom (just made that up).

 

Also, I believe wisdom is something people either develop or don't, based on how much they care about the truth and how observant they are. I'm talking about the practical kind of wisdom here. The kind that knows when not to do something.

 

It seems to me that energy based practices have nothing to do with either type of wisdom, practical or ultimate. It's something else that people either work on or don't, based on who they are. So if we're looking for qigong/tantra/yoga/whatever masters, the basis we should judge them shouldn't be on how wise they are...although it'd be best to have a wise teacher. But we should judge them based on whether they're far enough along on those types of paths or not.

 

We wouldn't judge a math whiz on their grammar. They have to do equations for us to be able to tell how good they are. But yeah, it's nice if the math whiz can write well, too.

 

I know this seems like an argument that goes against the grain. It takes too much energy to keep it up, so I guess that's enough to say. If others disagree and think siddhis should be kept secret, that's fine. Maybe they are right and wise to believe so. Not like my opinion matters...it just differs.

 

Peace.