Shinobi

[boyshood]

Hello

What is a Ninja? You and I may ask!

 

Well here is a thread to start to talk and here in a video to start to know the History of the Great Shinobi art and Ninja Masters

 

Bye

 

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7x9kl_sh...nerations_sport

 

 

 

 

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[boyshood]

Thanks, it is a long letter so i read it latter, i am still watching the video:

 

Shinobi winds of the 34 generations!

 

What do you think of the video early history of the Ninja?

 

Regards

[Prince...]

Interesting stuff you posted, Mike! Isn't the Bujinkan tied to Hatsumi? When I was studying at Jing's in San Diego, there was a Bujinkan class that met the same time as my Wingchun class. I always thought they did cool stuff.

 

I guess I can understand the importance of having a lineage and all, but I don't see what's the big deal of just saying "hey, we took all this stuff and mix-matched it together because it works for me!"

 

Mike, I was wondering if you have any opinion on the Bujinkan (or anyone else reading this thread). I always thought Kosta was involved with them for awhile. I started out Wingchun, so I know how politics can ruin a good art. I liked some of the joint locks and stuff that I used to see when I was SUPPOSED to be doing Wingchun...haha. A lot of times we were standing there doing the Sil Lum Tau forever and I was watching them like ,"man, I'd rather be rolling around and throwing people," plus they had more girls.

 

The best word of advice anyone has ever given me about choosing a martial art to study-- if you don't see any women, leave.

 

But yeah, is it at least a good art? Can you get a good workout from it? I'm moving soon and found a Bujinkan school--wanted to check it out. I also found a Wingchun school and a Taichi teacher with ties to the Yang Family. Would love to keep doing Tai Chi, but it's a big hassle to get to the classes-- would love to get back into Wingchun, but I found the teacher talking a lot of mess on some MA message boards-- my last Wingchun teacher said not to get involved in those kinds of debates and I tend to avoid people who do.

 

But yeah...I could give a shit about history...I talk to a hot blond that is way out of my league, if I get jumped with her, I don't care if Yim Wingchun was a fairy tale or some Japanese doctor/ninja dude actually existed, I'd just be concerned with having the wits to make it out of the situation alive hopefully as a result of some good training.

 

Too many martial artists are dorks, though. That's why we have all this mess in the MA community. (random thought inserted at the end)

[mjjbecker]

..

Edited July 6, 2009 by mjjbecker

[enouch]

[Squatting Monkey]

Hatsumi is a shrewd business man who cashed in on the ninja boom of the 70's and 80's.

There's no doubt that he is a skilled martial artist, but having studied in the Bujinkan for a few years myself, I realised that it is nothing but glossed over karate.

The grading system is a complete joke with numerous 15th Dan grades

I'd like to see a high grade Bujinkan guy against a 3rd Dan Okinawan Karate guy.

And people getting grades for just showing up at lessons and courses. Complete shambles.

I got totally disgruntled with the whole organization, and I'm not the only one.

I don't think there were ever any 'ninja' at all.

[Zhuo Ming-Dao]

Many of the famous spiritual techniques attributed to the ninja, such the kuji-in and kuji-kiri, were originally Shugendo techniques used by the Yamabushi (mountain ascetics) for achieving a state of Buddhahood in this life and for manifesting supernatural powers. Some common Shugenja abilities included exorcism, energy healing, advanced qigong done in trance, walking on swords/flaming coals, standing under freezing cold waterfalls for hours/days, seeing spirits with their bare eyes, and living without food for unnaturally long periods of time. It is reasonable to suspect that a group of historical assassins could have adopted some of these techniques from the mountain hermits in order to complement their martial arts.

 

It would be nice if it were still possible to study under a true, lineage holding Shugenja, but they were violently purged throughout the country by the Meiji government shortly after they took power. Shugendo blended folk belief, Daoism and Buddhism too thoroughly for the new State Shinto that the government wanted to invent. There are people who call themselves Shugenja in Japan today, but over fifty years passed in Japan before practice became legal again and most of the texts were burnt. The new groups that call themselves Shugenja had to rebuild mostly from legend rather than direct transmission.

 

Just for a historical note: recent scholarship has found that the words that go along with the kuji-in originated from a spell in the Taoist text, the Bao Pu Tsu. Ge Hung said that the spell summoned forth an army of spiritual guardians to protect a person when training alone in the woods from fox spirits and the like.

 

I am perfectly willing to deny any of the modern lineages claims, but I think that there is enough evidence to show that a spiritual group of assassins existed in Japan's past. Or at least that a group of assassins would have happily to borrowed some of the mystical reputation that the Yamabushi had by faking mudras and the like in order to intimidate their enemies.

Edited June 14, 2009 by Zhuo Ming-Dao

[boyshood]

There's no doubt that he is a skilled martial artist, but having studied in the Bujinkan for a few years myself, I realised that it is nothing but glossed over karate.

 

Is Bujinkan the same as Ninjutsu?

[boyshood]

[Aetherous]

I like ninjas too.

[Sloppy Zhang]

Oh boy.... the Bujinkan.... can I say this in such a way that I WON'T get sucked into a never ending debate?

 

The Bujinkan marketing is misleading. Sites like koryu.com says that Bujinkan is NOT ninjutsu or ninjas and stuff like that, and it appears to totally discredit the Bujinkan... but that's not entirely true.

 

The Bujinkan is made up of 9 lineages, only THREE of which are supposedly "ninjutsu" (or contain ninjutsu techniques). The rest of them are more or less some form of jujutsu that was used by various families and which, over several generations, got funneled down to one man, Hatsumi (well.... there are other people that studied with Hatsumi's teacher and inherited some stuff, and there's some debate over whether Hatsumi is the sole inheritor, or what of those 6 arts are valid and whether they are compilations of Hatsumi's teacher).

 

Two of the 6 jujutsu ryu are traceable and verifiably legitimate historically. The other 4 have known names (so if you go back and look at records you can see the name of that style), but it is unclear if it is legitimately that style, or if it was a new style that was just given that name to sound credible.

 

On to the efficacy issue.... depends on the fighter. Hatsumi has himself admitted in several books that as the Bujinkan grew training became less strenuous. The people who trained in the Bujinkan back when it was founded trained hard and they could really do some serious stuff. There are some people that even accuse Hatsumi of already having picked several top students to which he would pass on and reveal his true skills, and the rest he'd more or less string along for the money, teaching a few techniques but not really pushing any students beyond a chosen few to the limits of what they could do.

 

So, opinions vary on Hatsumi's credibility, his moral character, business ethics, marketing strategies, effectiveness of the style, and naturally theories abound on what exactly, if anything, Hatsumi learned from his teacher, whether it was really ninjutsu, maybe Hatsumi's teacher was just a genius at martial arts, slapped some well known ninjutsu names on his ryu ha, then Hatsumi publicized that like crazy. Who knows?

 

On historical legitimacy: a few styles are legit, a few styles are questionable but have known names, and the rest are unknown, and Hatsumi has refused to show some stuff that could prove legitimacy, doesn't mean he doesn't have it, he just won't show it (though the book by Kacem Zoughari is supposed to have some good info to prove legitimacy, and I eagerly await the release of his book)

 

On effectiveness: depends on the practitioner and how much they really push their training. Training from school to school can be different, but one thing is clear: the Bujinkan as an organization won't push you to really "earn" your rank, you push yourself.

Edited June 24, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[orb]

I like ninjas too.

 

 

What do ninjas want to be when they grow up?

 

CHUCK NORRIS!!!

[Edward M]

YOU GUYS!!!!! my whole childhood just went up in smoke

 

i had all the hatsumi books lol...

 

Interestingly enough, the finger weaving kujikiri in one the books is identical to the finger weaving in a book about taoism i have (shamballa guide to taoism-eva wong).

 

peace

Ed

[Sloppy Zhang]

YOU GUYS!!!!! my whole childhood just went up in smoke

 

i had all the hatsumi books lol...

 

Before you get all sad be sure you research all the facts.... YOURSELF.

 

The problem is that there AREN'T a lot of facts. There's a piece here, and a piece there. The rest is how you consruct the story. You can construct the story in a pro Hatsumi way or in an anti Hatsumi way.

 

Also, study Japanese history. For instance, let's assume Hatsumi's lineage is authentic, and Hatsumi's teacher Takamatsu DID study with someone who instructed members of the Shogunate. Many members of the Shogunate were targeted and assassinated during the time of Takamatsu's teacher. It would have been quite reasonable for Takamatsu's teacher to hide what he was teaching, and probably told Takamatsu "if anyone asks you learned Judo."

 

This can't explain everything, it's just an example. The anti-Hatsumi people are just as fanatic is as the pro-Hatsumi people. But when you look at the FACTS, you realize there's not a lot of them. Then throw in Japan's history of war, strife, bombings, fires, killings..... it's just crazy.

 

Though rumor has it Kacem Zoughari has found some stuff (namely the grave of Takamatsu's teacher). But until his book comes out we won't know how much info he's found. And we still run into the problem of piecing the facts together. Anyone can make a few stray dots connect into whatever shape they want.

[Creation]

Glenn Morris describes in Path Notes of an American Ninja Master how when Hatsumi gave him the Master-level examination there was an energetic/information transfer as part of the test and afterward he clairvoyantly saw a tengu hanging around him. I know it's anecdotal, but if you believe him it suggests that there is some kind of real lineage that Hatsumi is a master of. The details, of course, remain sketchy.

Edited June 26, 2009 by Creation