Tucking the Tailbone in Taiji & Zhan Zhuang

[DaoChild]

So there seems to be some confusion in my mind as to what this properly means. A few different people as well as literary sources seem to have slightly different definitions.

 

For example, there is the A) "As long as your head is help up and the spine is elongate, you are tucked properly"

And there is the "You need to consciously pull the pelvis forward and a bit up"

and C) "Just don't hang your ass out or belly out"

 

I find it's a bit more touchy in Zhan Zhuang, since when you are standing still you are more keen on how this affects the body. So, if I stand in Wuji for example and first exaggerate the butt-out , and then go to the other side , to the forward slumped shoulders, and then find that place in the center with a straight spine and lofty head -- that should be the ideal state of the spine, tailbone, no?

 

Any clarification would be most appreciated

Edited June 15, 2009 by DaoChild

[Pranaman]

Basically tuck your tailbone forward as much as you can without creating tension. The first thing I was taught was...

 

Stand tall, knees less bent(straighter) then when you stand, and feel a string connected to the top of your head that is connected to the ceiling. Then try to sit down, but the string won't let you, it pulls your spine, elongates and straightens it, and your tailbone tucks (because you are trying to sit down) all while your weight is trying to go downwards.... this is a good position for standing (learned this for wuji, embrace the ball, and the other hand positions....)

 

If this is unclear I might be able to look at it from another angle....

 

 

PS. are you reading ZZ and the Search Of Wu?

[Spirit Ape]

In all Chinese Martial arts the tailbone is slightly tucked under to open up the Ming Men point in the spine to allow the orbit and energy to flow freely through the body (No kinks in the spine).

 

Ape

[sheng zhen]

In my own practice I feel it is better to relax the hips and let the tailbone just sink downwards than to tuck in the tailbone. If I tuck I use muscles and that is opposite of the relaxation I want. But when I relax and sink, the whole lumbar spine lengthens and straightens naturally.

[寒月 Hanyue]

My understanding and experience is the same, or at least similar to Sheng Zhen's. I think the 'tuck the tailbone' is a mis/bad translation, in the same vein as translating 'sung/song' as 'relax'. The Chinese use internally felt sensations as a guide rather than external guidance for a reason. It may FEEL like your tailbone 'tucks' but is it ACTUALLY tucked? This is the real question. You have to distinguish between feeling and the external shape of the posture.

 

When you align the legs, pelvis, and spine correctly it should flatten out the lumbar spine (fill the mingmen), and it should feel like your ass has dropped, or your tailbone has sunk. The pelvic alignment occurs when the lumbar releases at the back as well as the psoas releases at the front (this slightly rotates the pelvis, but moving the pelvis and it being moved there are two different things). The rising in the front is due to the proper release of the psoas group and if you 'tuck' in any way (ie 'move' yourself, rather than allow yourself to be moved) to 'get into the right' position you will not only be engaging the muscles differently but you will be creating different sensations as to those given to you to guide you in finding the right position. The psoas for example are not going to release if they are being used/engaged with to 'tuck' the pelvis, even if only slightly.

 

Hope that helps.

[Sloppy Zhang]

In my experience as well it's not so much as a "tucking in". In doing the standing meditation of B.K. Frantzis' Opening the Energy Gates of the Body book, I found that when I relax, my hips naturally rotate a little bit and my tailbone moves forward. It's POSITIONED like I tucked it in, but I didn't do any muscular "tucking in".

 

I think that Frantzis also explained this as straightening the lower back (unless you are a heavier person, in which case looking at the lower back isn't going to tell you if your tailbone is tucked or not), so once the tailbone is tucked and the head is held properly the spine is as straight as possible.

 

At least that's my understanding.

 

My understanding is also similar to sheng zhen and snowmonki (props to snowmonki for the specific biological terminology).

Edited June 15, 2009 by Sloppy Zhang

[Squatting Monkey]

In my experience, if you can relax/sink into your posture and look side on into a mirror, you will see that your alignments are correct. Even if it doesn't always feel so. Get someone as a spotter if you can. It is essential to have help when learning to stand correctly so that no bad habits are formed.

 

SM

[DaoChild]

In my experience, if you can relax/sink into your posture and look side on into a mirror, you will see that your alignments are correct. Even if it doesn't always feel so. Get someone as a spotter if you can. It is essential to have help when learning to stand correctly so that no bad habits are formed.

 

SM

 

Yeah, yesterday I started filming myself with the camera, settling into my posture, and then adjusting my hips forward and back to see if any of them look more proper than how I naturally settle in. Unfortunlately I have no one in the area who does Zhan Zhuang, so until I get home in about two months I will either have to stop (if I notice I'm doing something seriously wrong), or continue and hope I've got it mostly right .

 

It feels right though -- my spine is straight, I've always had good posture (probably because I'm thin), and when I notice any tension in the hips, I relax them and they relax down and out a little bit, and are fully relaxed.

[Aetherous]

I like Spirit Ape's idea, that the purpose of tucking the pelvis is to open the mingmen (take pressure off of the kidneys).

 

There are different ways of practicing. Some emphasize having no tension. That's useful for standing meditation, where the key is to take the mind off of the body.

 

I don't have any books near me right now, but I remember reading that sinking and relaxation isn't supposed to mean absolutely no tension...it's supposed to mean that you take up a posture and don't have any extra tension which isn't needed for that posture. So if the posture requires some, then some is necessary!

 

I used to practice no tucking, because I was focusing on standing as a posture technique. I found that it wasn't very useful, and just simply living day to day life and walking around is enough to ensure the posture is normalized. In fact, the more you focus on having perfect posture, the worse it will seem to be.

 

Now I practice standing for qigong, and tuck. Yeah it feels awkward, but it's doing the job.

[sheng zhen]

There are special kind of muscles involved in posture. Postural muscles. Which are slow twitch muscles that are evolutionary made to withstand long hours of work. They are made to be tense(sort of) all the time. And they dont give us the same sensation of painful and energydraining tension as the more superficial fast-twitch muscles. When we use the postural muscles correctly it will actually feel as if we dont use muscles at all to stand upright. This is the feeling of Song. Like the body is gone. So one secret to Zhan Zhuang is to connect to these slow-twitch postural muscles, and relax all the rest.

 

The psoas and deep spinal muscles are especially important for hip. The psoas is a spine/hip stabilizator so this one is the real treat to experience deep relaxation in ZZ. When the psoas is used correctly, the whole rest of the spine can pretty much align on top naturally.

 

There are two part of the psoas. The top and the bottom. The posas is actually the only muscle that can counteract itself. So when we find the right balance between the upper and the lower psoas-part, we have a stable and corrected spine. Usually for people it is the upper psoas that needs more attention. This is the one that tucks in the hip correctly. As opposed to using the gluteus, rectus abdominis and rectus femoris.

 

The psoas is the secret key!

 

Fun thing, that I just noticed, the psoas connect the Ming Men part of the spine, goes pretty much through Dan Tien, and connects to the hips...

Edited June 15, 2009 by sheng zhen

[Pranaman]

sung gunn is like, working without creating tension. Not mindless relaxation, but real, truly solid muscular work.... without creating tension. It's relaxation and firmness together. This requires attention, and this is what I personally want in my standing practice. This principle helps me judge my posture.

 

This is a good article on different aspects of standing, and addresses different ways of learning it, as well as sung gunn and movement in stillness.

Edited June 15, 2009 by Pranaman

[DaoChild]

sung gunn is like, working without creating tension. Not mindless relaxation, but real, truly solid muscular work.... without creating tension. It's relaxation and firmness together. This requires attention, and this is what I personally want in my standing practice. This principle helps me judge my posture.

 

This is a good article on different aspects of standing, and addresses different ways of learning it, as well as sung gunn and movement in stillness.

 

 

I agree -- I think some people neglect (from my basic understanding) that Zhan Zhuang is "exerted" relaxation. You are working very hard in many of the postures! There is a strong muscular, cardiovascular, and circulatory demand on the body, but you relax into it so that you do not form tension, and the blood is then permitted to flow more easily. Oxygenation of the tissues = oh so good

[mouse]

Relaxing the spine open and physically tucking the tailbone through active relaxation is a very fine line.

 

Only way to find out if you are doing it properly is to get someone to push on you. If you can neutralise into the ground by yielding into the body's soft tissues and create the line to empty out the jin, then you're doing it right.

 

No amount of self posturing and looking in the mirror will tell you better than having a force land on you. If it is not tucked enough, the kink will bounce you out. If not relaxed, the tension will bounce.

 

Makes me wonder how good some people are to be able to do their form so quickly. For me, I HAVE to go so slow as every minute transition in the form has gaps and hollows that needs to be refined.

 

mouse

[Spirit Ape]

Tucking doesnt mean with force its a soft action to be able to feel the alignment and you should be able to then feel your Qi move which can only be felt when you understand Sung /Soong (canto). The problems with posting information is that people take the words differently but if you study properly the words as tucking is easily understood just because someone doesnt write tension or no tension if you are a true Kung fu man or Qi Kung player you know all about this.

 

ape

[DaoChild]

if you are a true Kung fu man or Qi Kung player you know all about this.

 

ape

 

Are you a true kung fu man? What does a true kung fu man even mean?

[Martial Development]

A true kung fu man is like a true scotsman, but with more chi.

[Trevcaru]

"the sacrum is 'allowed' to relax 'down' by relaxing the lower back (This is different than tucking and take a while for some to get)." -Rick Taracks (founder of the art of Wujifa)

 

In the art of Wujifa, standing meditation is one of the most essential practices. The dedicated students of the main school, called the School of Cultivation and Practice which includes myself, train zhan zhuang for 1 hour every day. If you would like to read a very good article regarding tucking please read

 

The Concept of "Sit Down" in Wujifa Standing...

 

I believe the article is at the bottom of the page.

 

It should definitely be worth your time if you have any interest in Zhan Zhuang.

Edited June 16, 2009 by Trevcaru

[Spirit Ape]

True kung fu man that lives and breaths his art, its his life, his study, his healing, a kung fu man knows all about the poetry of his art the transmissions that tell you how to play your system and develop the skills, the way to move, the way to feel, the way to realize your powers.

 

True kung fu men, live it all day not a hobbie!!!

 

cheers

Ape

[Pranaman]

[Trevcaru]